Derek Pankaew

Hey Guys,

I've got a bit of a dilemma right now. Recently, I've met up with a group of amazing CPA marketers in my area. These guys are probably the top in their field. Many of them make $20,000+ a week, some even make over $20,000 in a day. Needless to say, these guys are really something.

I had the great fortune of meeting up with these guys and becoming friends with them. A couple of them are crashing at my friend's place. Had dinner with them last week. Played frisbee a few weeks ago. Gonna go flirt with girls together later.

Basically, just "chilling" with these guys.

One of the guys has offered to teach me how to do what he does. Of course, I'd be thrilled to learn how to make even just $200 a day doing what they're doing. However, here's my dilemma: I think CPA marketing is unethical marketing.

Let me explain. The majority of CPA offers are forced continuity offers. For example:

Ringtones: You get "free ringtones," but you get billed $9.99 a month thereafter. All the ads say "get free ringtones," but in the small print on the bottom it tells you you'll get billed until you tell them to stop.

Acai Berry: Acai berries are one of the most popular CPA offers. Again, the hook is usually "Two free bottles" or "15 day free trial!" type of offers. Again, if you don't cancel in 15 days, you'll get billed $40 a bottle for a total of $80. Then you'll get billed $80 a month.

Government Grants: Probably the one I have the biggest issue with. Promises to teach people how to get $10,000 checks from the government using grants. You get to learn for "free," but again you actually get billed $90 then $90 a month if you don't cancel. This one I definitely have a problem with, because they actively target people who're already in debt or having trouble paying their mortgages.

So here's the dilemma. There are offers I know I won't touch, like the government grant offers. On the other hand, offers like the Acai berry are an ethical "borderline" for me. On one hand, I don't really like this type of marketing. On the other hand, if they're the type of person who'll spend money on diet pills anyway, I don't feel like I'm actively hurting their life.

Basically, the dilemma is that there's the offer to learn how to make a lot of money on the table. I'm not sure if I want to do it though, because I don't support the products and the business model which I think is a bit unethical.

However, for the borderline products I have the chance to make a lot of money "without really hurting anyone." There are also so many CPA marketers that me not participating wouldn't really make a difference. The rationalization goes something like ... "If I'm not hurting anyone, or if they'll buy anyway, or if people are going to promote it anyway ... Then why shouldn't I make some money doing it?"

Before you guys post your comments - Really think about this. What would you do if you could earn $20,000 a month? I know a lot of people are going to want to shoot right out the gate with "100% stick to your values" type of responses, but before you do I just ask that you really try on what it'd be like to have an offer to earn that kind of money on the table.

Thanks for reading. I'd really appreciate your thoughts, comments, reflections and responses.

Best wishes,

- Derek

Earn $30 to $50 an Hour Freelance Writing, Anywhere in the World (Earn On The Road!)

Chris Egan

Its timeshare for the internet. Of course many would say if people don't read the small print ... but people in desperate situations often don't read the small print, thats how they end up in those situations.

Personally I think you are right to think hard about this. If it troubles you then it must be because you don't feel right about it. But that can be like drugs, you know they will tell you just try it, and see how you feel, sure with $2k in your pocket you may change your values.

I don't think we need go that road, you can still do CPA marketing ethically.

David Raybould

Hi Derek,

It's great to have ethics in this situation, bravo. I think a lot of guys wouldn't have even stopped to think...

I'd say give it a shot. Get involved a little, find out a little more about the things you'll be doing.

There are a million different CPA offers, and a ton of providers, so you may find something you're okay with. You may even find out it's not as bad as you imagined.

Hold onto your integrity though, and if you don't like it, bail out.

At least this way you'll have taken the opportunity to it's natural conclusion.

Good luck, and I hope this helped at least a little.

David

Site Not Converting? Want More Money? PM me or Email Me Here. I can help

K2SMedia

I had a similar dilemma a few months back... Then I realized, we're in a recession, and it's survival of the fittest.

Most of my CPA stuff is via email/classifieds, so I usually get to write someone before they convert. They don't know they are filling out an offer for me, they think it's for an entirely different reason.

I simply put in a filter that throws emails with certain words right in the trash...

What are the words?

"retired"
"single mother"
"student"
"college"
"handicap"
"disabled"
"vet"
"first car"
"high school"
"bankruptcy"
"jesus"
"god"
"bless"

It's that simple. I never see the emails, and they never get billed.

johnysc430

I had a dilemma like this also, but when my mortgage payment came due and I started making 1-4k daily. I think you guys can understand the choice I've made. People can always cancel charges on their CC's and if they're dumb enough to sign up to a ringtone offer that says 9.99 monthly on the front page, I mean come on. I sleep fine at night, I'm not destroying anyone's life. America is a country of wasteful spending, might as well make something off the waste. There's no ethical question. Either you feel comfortable doing it or you don't.

Derek Pankaew

Hmm ... So I'm hearing "give it a shot, see what happens" mostly.

I think I'm down for that. I can't see myself really making this a primary business, even if it's very profitable, simply because it's not something I want to be doing.

On the other hand, I'm barely paying all my expenses right now and the extra money would make a big difference.

Earn $30 to $50 an Hour Freelance Writing, Anywhere in the World (Earn On The Road!)

mr2monster

I recently started doing something that I thought I would find to be an unethical way to make money... but once I analyzed the situation further, I became okay with making just a few adjustments in my system and I'm now okay with it and I'm also making more money than I ever have online... EVER.

Granted, it's not anywhere near 20K a month... more like 2K a month though (small time, i know. haha).

johnysc430

go for it Derek, I don't think you're hurting anyone.

keyaziz

I would never do this. I wouldn't care what situation I was in. There are other ways.

No matter how I tried to justify it, deep down I would have that niggling feeling - my subconscious - telling me its not right to do it. The conscious mind tries to rationalize anything and pulls you away from your true values.

Money comes second to my ethics.

Not to mention I really hate those ringtone offers. Anyone can fool for it and I know in the past many have had a HORRIBLE time trying to get out of that charge, even when they have opted out.

As for the weight loss pills - I disagree because weight loss pills to me are rubbish. People will get these free offers hoping that they will lose weight with it when the only real way to do so is to eat right and exercise. Unfortunately with all the junk science out there people don't know what eating right is and these useless unhealthy pills add to it.

I could go on.

Why don't you use the information you learn from these guys to promote other companies that don't pray on people in those ways? I am sure there is something out there that would make you feel more comfortable.

Numbskull Audio Production

bksuresh

You can probably put a note at the end of your mail or site, saying that one should read terms and conditions etc carefully before accepting the offer

BKSURESH

James Schramko

When I saw your post headline I thought it was going to be the methods your friends are using.

That is often the seedy part. Keep an eye ion the tactics they use.

Click Here When You Are Ready To Learn Real Internet Business Secrets

fight_prof

I would do it. Lol, lemme know how you're doing it and I'll try it out for/with you

lol, had to say that.......... annnnyyyway, I worked for one of the largest Telecomm's in the world for 5 years, and they put people in contracts all the time. I saw first hand, from being on the phones in the beginning to being in an analyst position near the end, MANY of the customers simply did not read their terms of service, and even MORE were TOLD originally on the phone that they would have a cancellation charge, but they would eventually "forget".

People need to get a sense of personal responsibility, its one of the biggest problems in north america, the lack thereof.

GOOD LUCK!

Paul Buckley

CPA is all about ad copywriting and heavy traffic generation. Could you use a first class education in these techniques for something that doesn't bruise your conscience?

lcombs

Could you use the same techniques as your friends except be more up-front about the continuity part?

Rubber Water: Music by perhaps the best Warrior in the forum, as well as a great musician: Check him out, spread the word.
https://www.facebook.com/RubberWater

Ron Douglas

Here is the real test for whether you should do it:

- Does the product really do what it says?
- Are the details clearly spelled out and visible?

If so, go for it. Consumers are adults. If they don't read what they're buying, that's their fault.

maverick4u

This is exactly my dilemma as well. I feel that if you participate in marketing a shady offer then you are being shady as well. It will come back to haunt you (bad karma?)
My problem is not so much with the fine print (although how many companies renege on people trying to cancel?) but with the lies, misconceptions and "junk science" that is used to reel people in-especially with diet and fitness offers.

Ron asked "Does the product do what it says?"

Too often the answer is NO...at least when dealing with all the crap diet and fitness products being peddled all over the net. It reminds me of the "magic elixir" salesman who went from town to town in the 1900's pushing his patent medicine on people that cured everything.

Maybe someone has ferreted out the few ethical "diamonds in the rough" and can sell them as a WSO?

abo28

I agree with keyaziz. Go for it, learn how to do it, but use that information to promote ethical stuff.

aj113

I'd take with a pinch of salt those who say that they are earning £20k per week, and those who claim earnings of $20k pay day are plain bs-ing.

Tyrus Antas

People will rationalize everything... Then get pissed off when the same thing happens to them(look at the review section in this forum)

Are you trying to get approval from us? If you're not comfortable with it, then don't do it. If you are, you're a free man.

Tyrus

honestbizpro

No one really needs to go to a forum to get their bearings on whether integrity in marketing is important or not.

No matter what you do in life we have choices.

I could study anything and turn it into a life of crime or a life of good.

You can learn CPA skills and apply it to any form of white hat marketing.

But don't we all know that already?

Adbeat

You would be incorrect in this assumption. However, it is often the case that people quote gross sales figures when they throw around numbers.

I can assure you though, there are people doing 20K/wk and even sometimes per day NET profit.

honestbizpro

And the first person that proved to me some outrageous profits in CPA was so young I don't even want to say the age.

JimmyD

OK I know this is a fairly old thread that has just been revitalised but I know what you are feeling...
There is no doubt in my mind that the correct route here is to get the training. Once you have the training you can decide what to do with it, even if that decision is to not use what you have learnt.
"The more I know the luckier I get" J.R.Ewing (Dallas for those that are too young).
Even if you do not approve of methods or offers you need to know what eveyone else is doing.
I personally started promoting the Acai stuff and am not happy with the whole continuity problems that everyone is complaining about so I have let all the work I put in go to rot.... On the other hand I'm not against a bit of black hat so it's "horses for courses".

Bottom line: do the training and expand your knowledge.

Cheers
Jimmy

aj113

Yep, and I can assure you that there aren't - no wait, you're going to tell us that you're one of them, right?

SimonHarrison

I can assure you, you're wrong, and there also a pretty large number of guy doing $5k - 10kper day in a single niche.

As amazing as it sounds there are folks making more than $20k daily, and on some limited time span hot niches way more than that per day albeit for relatively short periods

I still laugh when I hear people saying acai etc is dead, people have no clue how much money is changing hands on acai, acai related products, colon cleanse etc

The numbers are astronomical from those with big PPC and mass e-mailing setups, free trial offers have blown open CPA earnings.

aj113

OK, and - assuming you're not one of them - how exactly do you know this?

honestbizpro

That's right Simon!

There are network owners right here who are warriors who verify that all the time.

PPC-Coach

I can confirm it.

I know quite a few of them.

metaphors

Are the ringtone and acai offers the only offers your friends promote? If not then go for it and if it is then learn the methods and use them for other offers there are offers for pretty much everything out there, However the fact that you need us to rationalize you doing it seems to say that maybe it's not for you and you should just pass. I would definately learn the techniques and apply them to other others 20k is alot even if you can earn 10% of that weekly you can live a pretty good life.

zerofill

Forced continuity is what everything is changing to...

Heres the deal...Take Acai for instance...
They are going to spend $35 for you to get someone to spend $1.95-$4.95...
But if they didn't pay you $35 you probably would be looking for some other product to promote.

BeThe ROI for you wouldn't be worth it. Zip submits and email submits for PPC don't rely on quality traffic. Trial offers do....So a zip submit on a PPC campaign if you are doing it correctly should have a higher conversion rate.

On a PPC Campiagn you might be spending 25k to make 30k...on trial offers...

So you need the high commission to make it worthwhile for you to push the product. The company selling the Acai needs to forced continuity for all the people that cancel before 14 days...


2 Things are obvious in this scenerio:
You're not going to pay out of your pocket to promote their product for no return...

They aren't going to pay you for no return either...

So something has to give....

Obviously the consumer is going to bare the burden...not the affiliate or the company...

You think this doesn't work the same way in the real world? My city taxes are just stupid...because I am paying for all the people on welfare in this area...

Business is business is business...

I will be the first person to tell you I do not buy the products I promote from CPA networks... But I also don't promote them to a list either...So I am not selling to people whom I have built trust with. If I was selling a product to these people...I would be doing more research.

For the most part CPA products whether it be trial or zip submit or whatever...You are just getting people to look at the offers. They are or should be making their own decision about whether the product is for them or not. When we do a review site for CPA products...we don't really review them. We just put facts about what we have found. It's up to the consumer to decide if they believe those facts, want to research more about those facts...or whatever. I am just trying to get them to see the product exists for a keyword they were searching.

Hell for the most part we don't even do any type of review...we just basically state what the manufacturer says and maybe what the ingredients are in it and call it a day. Except for some generalized content for SEO purposes on general colon cleanse, or antioxidants etc... Their sales page either sells them or it doesn't.

zerofill

By the way the way people who question whether there are people that make 20k a day...
Obviously it is possible to scale up to that. Not really sure what people find so amazing about that?
It's done mostly with PPC and media buys and they may spend 100k to make that 20k...so spend 100k make 120k...

I think what people tend to do is put it in terms of their current financial situation. You have to remember...they aren't making 20k a day by spending $100

Adbeat

aj113 - I know plenty of people personally that do numbers as mentioned above.

Adbeat

this is exactly right.

SimonHarrison

You would be surprised how much is done via e-mail. Some of the biggest underground guys, the guys who don't waste time on forums or even know who Frank Kern is are making the kind of money in a month that your average American earns in an adult lifetime and they don't go near media buys or PPC.

NetMediaGeek

Could you elaborate on that please Simon, are these guys buying email lists or building them ?

zerofill

I wouldn't be surprised actually...
I should have said I feel the majority probably is using media buys and ppc...

However...targeted niche specific lists can have a massive conversion.

Just like how some marketers say they will never sell your address blah blah blah when you join their list...but now I am getting spammed daily with CPA offers roflmao. So...they may not sell but they may loan out lol or spam you theirselves.

Smart thing to do which I don't...is to make different email addresses and have them forward to a main one...for every list you join then you can catch em hehe.

But building niche specific lists is a smart thing to do. Especially if you are giving a free ebook or auto responder series. It is much easier to convert them into putting an email in then buying something right off the bat. Then you market to them later... age old deal.

The CPA guys that have these massive lists where they shoot out 350k emails at once are making huge bank. Think about getting a 1% return on a 350k mailing...on a CPA offer that pays you $35 heh.

Not only using their lists...but purchased lists and or purchased rights to send their offers to other parties lists.

Oh I have no doubt about the CPA to email ability to generate cash...or I wouldn't be getting 100 of them a day lol.

Brian.B

I'd at least try it out. An opportunity like that can't be passed up. Also you might be able to apply what you learn to something that you consider more ethical.

J smith

It depends on the offer, how good/bad the product offered is and how bad/hard the continuity is. For example resveratrol seems to be hot rigth now (or so it seems) however the only offer for it on the network I am on is set up in such a way that it's impossible to cancel it in time to not get charged.

After reading those terms of services and having a good laugh (they ask for an empty bottle knowing damn well that many people won't return it the way it has to be returned for a refudn, and even those that will won't be able to return it on time) I decided I won't promote that particular offer regardless of how well it does. On the other hand, standard trial+continuity programs (that people can get out of without paying) I don't really have much problems promoting (if I feel the product is good that is)

Anyway, cpa isn't really that different than affiliate marketing, jv or even selling your own product. Would selling garbage from clickbank be ok as long as it doesn't have a continuity program attached to it? At the end what matters is the quality of the product, if the product is good then continuity doesn't really matter, where as if the product is garbage it's probably better not to sell it regardless if it has a continuity built in or not.

SimonHarrison

Hi

I'm talking way more than 350k in one go, but yeah you get the drift and you're correct on the rest.

You can actually get setup to do mass can spam compliant e-mailing for far less than you would think, $10,000 get's you everything you need to email huge numbers daily, millions per day is not unusual.

When somebody fills in one of those email submits, they have essentially legitimised spam to their inbox.

If you fill in an offer for a free laptop, you have now legally entitled the advertiser to send you crap about almost anything and be can spam compliant doing so. As long as they have the day you signed up, your IP and your name and e-mail, that is now legal.

Despite the BS about your privacy , these guys hawk these lists around like crazy.

Try signing up to an email submit for something free and (do it with a throw away email) address, you'll find you will then receive about 4-6 emails per day for LIFE, it never ever ends and these guys are good at it, it actually ends up in your inbox. They even host in the USA, no need to be offshore or bullet proof because in many cases it's "legal". They have suprisingly good deliverability rates, rotating IPs, TI network suppliers, faked headers etc.

The crossover from the lists is huge as well and they know it, for example anybody who signs up for a free makeup sample, is fair game for makeup, handbags, weight loss products, teeth whitening, colon cleanse, etc etc. They are also all on autoresponders as well so even a small list of 1 million e-mails is being bombarded on time release for months if not years.

A lot of the mid level affiliates, those guys creaming in $5k a day are building big opt in lists in a gazillion niches using dirt cheap traffic on content and mainly media buys, they are then selling them either direct to advertisers or via brokers.

All these guys do is slap the creative banner ad into an e-mail and work on a huge numbers game, they don't even go near landing pages.

There are a lot less guys doing big time mailing than PPC, it's more of a science and requires more technical knowledge and setup costs , infrastructure etc but they are doing HUGE money on a daily basis, and can whup the best PPC on any given day.

freefor15.com

Its tough to say I really don't believe in many of the products and feel they are the cause of our recent recession I.E wasteful spending but the other hand. I really could use a quick $20,000 to get off building my dream business and life.

you are not doing anything illegal. As long as you do something good with the money then it is ok dont fall into the same trap of going out and wasting it on booze coke and chicks. Do something good with it

Getting ready for the Launch count down begins now!!

aj113

Another (quite shallow) way of looking at it is that these people are going to waste their money on this crap anyway, so if that is the case then the money is better in your pocket than someone else's.