aekaplan

Hey all,

I've got a profitable campaign, and I'm looking to scale it. So far I've been driving traffic with Paid Search from Google, Yahoo, and MSN. I want to add on the content network... but to be honest, I haven't used it yet with success... if at all.

I'm paying Google a top bid of $0.80 for every search-click.

Is there a rule of thumb for Content Network vs. Paid search? If I'm paying $0.80 on Search, should I be paying no more than $0.25-$0.30 on content network?

Obviously the short answer is that I need to test this.

But would you recommend starting by testing high or low? Should I start at $0.10 and then bid up until I start seeing clicks, or at $.8 and then bid down until I'm profitable?

I would love to hear the feedback from warriors out there! Thanks so much and as usual, all the best to you and yours.

Mightyade

Don't spend more than $0.5 on paid search if your interest is to use it for CPC marketing. The best thing is to start from this amount and bid up as the result improves.

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malfumos

You must not spent $.50 up for that testing. You should start from lowest in order to track if it is OK to bid $.10 for your campaign. If your site is giving the right information which the readers are looking for then it is an advantage for you.

SimonHarrison

Personally I always bid HIGH initally, never ever low, especially as you already know your page converts.

Reason is simple, CTR will go along way to whether your ads even get shown. Google want to earn money if somebody else is buying on either a CPM or PPC model and they get their ads shown and clicked on , you'll have a hell of a job getting back in view again. $0.05 won't even get you seen on most 5 ad block sites for 99.9% of niches.

I bid high, then once the CTR is strong as hell, bid lower and lower and lower whilist constantly checking your CTR.

TE2

Make sure you separate your Search and Content Network ads into separate campaigns.

Raising your bid price won't get you clicks - better targeting will.

Regards,

John

SimonHarrison

They are not mutually exclusive, better targeting will help but bid to low and you simply won't get any clicks, that's an absolute.

JimWay

SimonHarrison is completely right in my opinion. As Far as content network yes you can get really cheep clicks, but you most likely will not get them right from the get go. You do have to bid pretty high to be shown then as your click threw rate goes up you will get cheaper clicks. If your not being shown in the block you are not getting clicks. Now there is no 50 cents and you will be shown in content or 20 cents or whatever. It depends on what your trying to be shown for. There was a great video that google made. It is a youtube video. They did one for search and content i believe. It is the same concept for both. It really makes you see in plain text so to speak what they are looking for. You can search it on youtube or maybe someone can post the link?

SimonHarrison

You'll be sick to know I'm about to bid $1.50 per click on CONTENT, yes, you heard that right and my CTR will be sky high, and I'll rapidly pull that bid down each day in quite large increments ensuring I still get placement on the sites I choose. For the record I might even lose money in the first 24 hours, I'm used to that.

Every other time I've tried going cheap first and then bid up, it's been a disaster, you'll never attack the big boys CTR and you'll end up deleting the entire bloody ad group and starting from scratch to get rid of the legacy data.

I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat, but that's how it works for me.

JimWay

Yes, i think really the only time people get a campaign running and profitable with low bids to start is when they get really lucky. They also might be in a niche with no competition. If your building a debt campaign and think that your going to start off with 10 cent clicks, because your on the content network. lol Well i wish it was like that. How SimonHarrison just explained how he runs his content network should set you right on the path you need to be. Here is that youtube video for everyone youtube .com/watch?v=K7l0a2PVhPQ. If it doesnt show then just search youtube for Introduction to the google ad auction. I think it will show exactly kind of what he is saying

SimonHarrison

Very useful video, thanks.

SFranklin

Great Video! Thanks for the help and the direction

aekaplan

Tons of helpful information here, thanks Warriors! Will be bumping up that CPC significantly right... now.

aekaplan

Simon, I've followed your advice and I'm starting to get clicks. I've got a content network CTR of 0.27%... What kind of a CTR are you going for? The same as for paid search? (2-4%) or is it just a different game entirely and 0.27% is decent?

Also, are you picking your placements or are you targeting the entire content network? I'm trying to get as much traffic as possible right now so I've just been doing content network as a whole but perhaps you do something different...

Thanks once again for your generous and helpful advice!

SimonHarrison

0.27% on content isn't awful by any means, I know people claim insane CTR on content but honestly I don't believe them. I recently ran a campaign and got a 0.09% CTR, arrgghh, had to ditch that puppy fast. Set it up again and now hitting 0.4%.

.5% on CTR is considered ok, 1% is considered extremely good, and 2% you basically have to be giving away free money. CTR for content is dramatically to search.

My search CTR% are normally around 4%- 6% , sometimes more, as long as you bid high initially, and your ads are well crafted 5% is more than possible, I have some at 7.5%, my QS is 9 , I shaved about 60 cents per click of my bid price with that combo.

I pick placements on content but I don't go crazy spending time with it, I use the keyword facility on content to let Google find relevent sites then I just go check them out and make sure the Adblock is visible above the fold, if not your CTR's gonna plummet and cost you money.

You might also like to try banners on content, don't believe people who tell you banners are dead, they don't know what the "F" they are talking about. The other benefit of banners is thatyou can take over an entire ad block , basically removing the competition.

Patrian

Hi Guys

another question hope you can help with (thanks the info so far has been great). Has anyone tried CPM on site placement, and under what circumstances would you use this instead of CPC?

I am getting quotes of between $7 and $9 for 1000 impressions at ' very good chance'

Cheers

Patrician

JimWay

I hope people realize how valuable the info that SimonHarrison is throwing out here in this thread for free. He could right up a ebook(obviously with more detail) and make a good bit of money. This is what a forum is all about. Keep it up! It is sometimes just the 2 % of the info that you get form someone that completes the other 98% you have that can change form 0 a day to hundreds with that technique.

SimonHarrison

Hi

You need to do the maths on it, let say you're getting 1000 impressions for $10 (for arguments sake)

Now lets say you can manage a 1% CTR on content network (and don't for a second think that's an automatic gurantee, it's not as easy as you would think), so your getting 10 clicks for $10 basically $1 per click.

Basically take whatever your selling and decide how many clicks it takes to make a sale and then decide whether you can afford to pay $1 a click.

Basically boils down to that, I would be wary personally for two reasons...

1% CTR on content, even carefully placed via placements with ad blocks above the fold is not as easy as you would think, content is a totally different animal to search. So if you get like 0.5 % CTR, you'll only be getting 5 clicks per thousands impressions making your clicks $2 a click.

In addition, I find, and this is only a personal issue but clicks from content dont' convert as well, they didnt' specifically search out your product, they just happened to see something vaguely interesting on a site they were on that's potentially loosely connected, so there's no absolute guarantee your conversion will be as good as search.

If you're new to Adwords, personally I say stay with the PPC model, at least you can't get burnt that way, you know exactly what you're going to pay for each click and you can do the maths easily.

Patrian

Cheers Simon

really do appreciate the wisdom.

Patrician

Danjunior

I think you should start low and if needs be increase to a manageable level if need be to maximize you profit margin.

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aekaplan

I appreciate the input... is this based on your own experience or personal opinion? No offense, but Simon has the benefit of having done this himself, so when he suggests starting by bidding high, I know that he's doing the same thing and it works for him. If you have had success by bidding low in the beginning however, I would love to hear about it :-)

SimonHarrison

For the record I am not a PPC guru, not remotely, I get along fine, I make a profit and I'm learning all the time. I also follow the same advice that a large number of the big PPC boys do, but if anybody can show me a live study of any kind where you can bid low and achieve a decent CTR in a market that has competition I'm all ears.

Mike Morgan.

This does not work any more .

As Google is aware that CTR gets higher as the bid position increases , so to take into consideration the effect of ad position on CTR - currently Google is normalizing CTR with Ad position .

Mike Morgan.

This does not work any more .

As Google is aware that CTR gets higher as the bid position increases , so to take into consideration the effect of ad position on CTR - currently Google is normalizing CTR with Ad position .

SimonHarrison

That's a rather blanket statement, data / source of information please. It works perfectly for me, at least 3 dozen campaigns all making a degree of profit have all been created and tweaked using that technique. When do you believe this stopped working ?

Mike, link to the data on that please, some official source, not some blog or forum. It's not exactly news to Google that CTR increases as CPC does, they suddently have an eureka moment? I was watching a video created within the last week where Google themselves made no mention of this and indeed correlated CPC to CTR without any negative connotation.

In practise, I've seen exactly the reverse, if I increase CPC, which increases placement position, CTR shoots up and stays there. This was as recent as yesterday.

Have some links / information from this from Google ?

ADDED: Just to be very clear, are you stating that Google is now not allocating any credence to bid price in the CTR equation and are in fact effectively equalizing bids across the board with CTR being only effected by external factors such as the content of the ads?

SimonHarrison

Also does your Adwords WSO contain any information on this change?

Again, some hard data on this would be very much appreciated, right now it sounds surreal.

ExtraB

Great Thread!

I was wondering if someone could answer a question. You see, I remember hearing or reading somewhere if you are using CPM on the content network with targeted placements (sites you choose for your ads to show on the content network - not automatic placements where Google chooses for you) then your ad could take over the whole adwords/adsense block... is this true?

And in other words does this mean that if say 3 or 4 ads normally show in a block, then only your one ad will show instead with a high CPM bid?

Any confirmation of this would be appreaciated because I was thinking of trying this out but the more I think about it (reflecting on my experience with the content network) and read this thread I am becoming reluctant. Only because my click through rate on the content network has been a lot lower than on search. So if you calculate what your cost is per click by dividing your Click Through by your CPM bid it will end up being very expensive relative to bidding by CPC.

I hope this makes sense and would love to hear your feedback.

And thanks for the great info Simon and everyone.

Sincerely,
Eric B

PS I've been lurking around here for a long time, finally signed up almost a year ago, and now making my first post. :-)

SimonHarrison

You can indeed take over an entire ad block, it's actually more common for people to create a banner which takes the place of an entire ad block of 3-4 text ads.

The issue with this is that your CPM or CPC will have to be pretty high because essentially Google is giving up potential revenue from 3-4 ads for your one advert.

For the record it's quite common to get a much lower CTR on content over search, they are entirely seperate beasts, i wouldn't worry about it, I have 2 search campaigns running now at 9% CTR with a QS of 9, I have the same landing page for content and have a 0.71 CTR on content (same ad).

In regards the issue of taking over the entire block, there is some solid information on this on Google site.

Infact, Googles own help pages and videos are superior to 99% of the PPC guides out there you can purchase.

sOliver

Yup, great thread.

I'm having one major problem.
I simply can't find a way to make my ad show up on a site that is relatively "unrelated" to the product.

Let's say I want to advertise my product for example "Acai berry xyz" on "fashionsitexyz.com".

Now my strategy would be to extract keywords from "fashionsitexyz" and then add them to adwords and add the site to my placements. Obviously my ad and my landing page will be completely unrelated and therefore my ad won't show up. Is there a workaround?

I also wonder if it's possible to find out the CPC for a specific site if they run Adwords.

ExtraB

Simon - Thanks for the tips and I will have a look at Google's site for more info.

sOliver - From what I understand there has been a lot of complaints about the acai berry campaigns. I read somewhere that Google is cracking down on these type of ads. Perhaps that is why they are not showing.

If I remember correctly, some people were creating fake blogs to promote the offer. Also, some of the companies that offer the free acai berry trials make it a little difficult to cancel the rebilling after the free trial (pay shipping only) offer ends.

You might want to dig into this a little further to find out more.

I hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Eric B