Why Organic SEO Beats PPC

[Daniel Molano]

I was thinking of making a huge thread about the advantages/disadvantages of SEO Vs PPC.

But I figured a small list would do better, it's actually quite simple.

Here's why organic SEO is better than PPC:

1. The leads generated by SEO are 'hotter'.

A lot of people know that PPC is paid advertising.

Meanwhile, outside the Internet Marketing niche, most people don't know that SE rankings can be "manipulated".

So they genuinely perceive it as a Google recommendation if you're on the top spots.

2. SEO has extremely low costs.

You might want to outsource some stuff or hire an SEO service, but you can pretty much do everything yourself for free. It would be time consuming but worth it.

Whereas in PPC there's keywords rising to even $50 per click, that's insane.

3. Authority Value.

A few months ago I made a poll here discussing what would define an authority site.

The general consensus was that the top organic SEO rankings for the most competitive niche keywords would define one.

Conclusion

The only particular advantage of PPC is that it can be implemented fairly fast. You can have a campaign running within a few hours.

However, that is a disadvantage by itself, people rush into their PPC campaigns without doing the proper research previously and lose a lot of money.

Anyway, my best example of SEO power would be May 16, 2009.

Thanks to my "impossible" business consulting ranking (300,000 monthly searches and 40,000,000 competing sites), I made $125,000 USD from 3 sales in 1 day.

My guess is that when you're positioned next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine it really helps.

What would someone believe when they see your site there?

"Google places this guy next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine, he must be something".

The above quoted text is what a client told me he thought once he saw that precise ranking. I'm talking about an offline client, who had no idea about Internet Marketing until after he paid me $50k.

Talk about insane traffic and ultimate branding.

What are your thoughts?

[AmericanWoman888]

Hey Daniel,

Awesome post. I'll bet the veteran Im'ers and the newbies will really appreciate it as well.

I agree with what you have said here. It's funny, in a sad way, I wasted thousands of dollars on PPC despite doing careful keyword research and tight monitoring and testing. I have made far more with SEO. It seems to be difficult to do SEO - it's not...it is only time consuming. I'd rather take my time and 'do it right' than look at those sickening G Adwords tabs.

Wow! What a fantastic ranking. Yes - I would definitely assume 'you must be somebody' if I saw your site next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine. I believe that would be 'social proof' at its finest.

Thanks for sharing.

Have a great day!

AW888

[Learnanew]

Yep, sadly the only thing about SEO is that it takes time to implement sometimes and you need to have a SEO friendly site.

Curious about the business consulting rank though, how many links you did you have to get in one days to rank next to them?

EDIT: Holy crap, I just googled business consulting and you're site is still there, I thought it was a one day thing!

[Vijay M]

Awesome Daniel. I have to tip my hat to you, after noticing your page 1 rankings in such short time and for such a "money" keyword.

[Avidpoet]

Google only makes there living on the PPC side so I think that Google puts that fog out there scaring SEO Marketers into spending money on the PPC side. I dont think there algorythm is as scary as they like us to believe its just to many pages out there to keep a tight hold of unless you got Bigfoot sized footprints for them to follow.

[Darth Executor]

Originally Posted by Daniel Molano

Here's why organic SEO is better than PPC:

1. SEO traffic is far more targeted.

Everyone knows that PPC is paid advertising.

Meanwhile, outside the Internet Marketing niche, most people don't know that SE rankings can be "manipulated".

So they genuinely perceive it as a Google recommendation if you're on the top spots.

That doesn't make it more targeted, it just gives you a potentially better click-through rate. I'd say that all things being equal, traffic for both is equally targeted.

The only particular advantage of PPC is that it can be implemented fairly fast. You can have a campaign running within a few hours.

However, that is a disadvantage by itself, people rush into their PPC campaigns without doing the proper research previously and lose a lot of money.

You can rush into SEO without doing proper research previously and waste a lot of time (or money if you outsource) as well, so this disadvantage isn't specific to PPC.

Anyway, I prefer SEO myself as the backbone of my business. If you understand PPC really well though you can build a bigger, more profitable business much faster though. Ideally, you should use both: use PPC to test markets, then run ppc ads until your site climbs the search engine rankings to number 1. If it's really profitable, you can try to dominate both the organic results and the ad results. This way you have a long term profitable business without missing out on the quicker, easier PPC profits.

[Mark Riddle]

Daniel,

I think PPC and organic serve different purposes.

I use PPC to drive traffic to determine conversion rates.

I do understand that some people use PPC to drive all their traffic, and actually there is no such thing as totally free traffic. (no matter if the costs are in time or money or both)

If the traffic converts with PPC I know that it will do as well if not better with organic traffic.

Mark Riddle

[Daniel Molano]

Originally Posted by Learnanew

Yep, sadly the only thing about SEO is that it takes time to implement sometimes and you need to have a SEO friendly site.

Curious about the business consulting rank though, how many links you did you have to get in one days to rank next to them?

EDIT: Holy crap, I just googled business consulting and you're site is still there, I thought it was a one day thing!

I've been holding that ranking for 5 months already, it really isn't that hard if you have my unprecendented authority site model.

I have similar or even better rankings within 3 other niches, for "impossible" 7 figure keywords just like that one as well.

After tens of thousands of dollars and countless hours invested, my team and I have developed a 100% white-hat authority site model which allows me (or anyone) to rank for any keyword whatsoever, regardless of competition and within 1-3 months.

Not to mention that with the Caffeine update coming, it's even better, I'm ranking #1 all across the board.

Originally Posted by Darth Executor

That doesn't make it more targeted, it just gives you a potentially better click-through rate. I'd say that all things being equal, traffic for both is equally targeted.

SEO

People believe you are being recommended by the almightly Google themselves. People don't know it's advertising/publicity.

Why do you think word of mouth is the most effective form of advertising, because it's not perceived as publicity at all.

PPC

Everyone knows PPC is paid advertising, that people had to pay money to get up there, whereas with SEO they don't.

For example, I never ever click on adsense ads, because I know people just paid for that spot. But I still do my searches on Google, eventhough I know they have probably been manipulated.

And that's just me because I'm an expert on the subject. Consider the grand majority of people has no clue that organic rankings can be manipulated.

How is it not more targeted?

[Daniel Molano]

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

Daniel,

I think PPC and organic serve different purposes.

I use PPC to drive traffic to determine conversion rates.

I do understand that some people use PPC to drive all their traffic, and actually there is no such thing as totally free traffic. (no matter if the costs are in time or money or both)

If the traffic converts with PPC I know that it will do as well if not better with organic traffic.

Mark Riddle

Actually Mark, that is the only case in which I use PPC myself.

I do run 1,000 clicks PPC campaigns often to determine conversions, and also to verify which keywords convert the best before starting with the SEO.

They do have to be run simultaneously as a split test though, otherwise you're messing up the conversion test.

Usually, I test 3 variations to see which one converts the best.

Either way, organic traffic for the same keywords is far superior in terms of conversion.

[Marian Berghes]

I don't think its a matter of witch one beats witch one.

If you have a business you should use both...at least until you get a boatload of traffic without the help of PPC at all.

It also depends on what type of business you want to run...there are people that just simply prefer PPC for its speed and they only want to build a squeeze page or something not a entire content site, so for them PPC would be better.

If you want to build a " central hub" and stuff then you should use both...use PPC to drive the initial traffic and test stuff out and in the meantime get some organic listings too.

[Daniel Molano]

Originally Posted by Marian Berghes

I don't think its a matter of witch one beats witch one.

If you have a business you should use both...at least until you get a boatload of traffic without the help of PPC at all.

It also depends on what type of business you want to run...there are people that just simply prefer PPC for its speed and they only want to build a squeeze page or something not a entire content site, so for them PPC would be better.

If you want to build a " central hub" and stuff then you should use both...use PPC to drive the initial traffic and test stuff out and in the meantime get some organic listings too.

Well, if I thought like that I would be losing most of my profit.

When you handle massive amounts of targeted traffic like I do (100,000 unique visitors per month or so), even the slightest change in conversion means hundreds of thousands of dollars per year.

And I know for a fact SEO has a better conversion, I've split tested this about 100 times.

Simple math.

In one of my biggest split tests (10,000 uniques from both sources), my PPC traffic had about 2.3% conversion and my SEO had a 3.1% conversion.

That's not much of a difference when you handle low amounts of targeted traffic.

But using my average overall traffic (100,000 unique visitors per month):

100,000 x 2.3% x $30 average price point = $69,000 USD per month

100,000 x 3.1% x $30 average price point = $93,000 USD per month

That's a $24,000 USD per month loss for thinking like that.

And that's only in sales, add 100,000 clicks per month to your PPC loss. At $0.5 per click which is not rare, you just lost another $50,000 per month. Your PPC profit is down to $19,000 USD per month.

Whereas my SEO campaign costs me $2,000 per month at most.

So let's recap. Under this scenario.

PPC = $288,000 USD per year.

SEO = $1,092,000 USD per year.

And in 100% of my split tests, this has been proven to be true. SEO has a better conversion.

Are you telling me it doesn't matter?

[TheBillionaire]

I absolutely love SEO , I wish I would force myself to do it more often.

I know as of today I've made about 20 times more with SEO , and my costs have been virtually nothing.

One of my tests was a SEO site in April , I just ran the reports on that particular site, which I ran PPC traffic to as well , and over the course of time had about 50k SEO visitors and 20k PPC visitors, all at a cost of $9.95 for the SEO , and about $10k for the PPC , the return on the $9.95 investment was about $40,000 and the return on PPC was about $20,000.

So , I know in my personal tests, SEO really leads the pack , however it's not "Easy" like PPC Is (That is , dumping a bunch of keywords into a tracker and seeing what ones work).

Having said that........the best thing is doing SEO sites THEN running PPC trafic to them once you know what converts, That my friend is golden.

[ados67]

That's one mean example you've got there with "business consulting" - I wonder how hard you've had to work to rank that high.

Great thread, very informative and while your statements here are rather simple, sometimes looking at things when they're clearly laid out in front of you helps things fall into place

Adi.

[InternetMarketingIQ]

You do what works for you. PPC is instant. SEO can take a very long time. So the only thing that matters is what works for you.

[Lucid]

Congratulations Daniel on your achievement.

I don't want to restart a debate on SEO is better than PPC or vice versa. They both have their place, advantages and disadvantages. On your first point, SEO is far more targeted, not necessarily so as Darth said, although I somewhat disagree about "you get a potentially better click rate". I also agree with what Mark said.People see SEO as essentially free as you say but I never see it that way. It is never free as you should count your time and effort. As for authority, I believe that is true. Do you think however that people would have the same opinion if they realized that rankings are manipulated to get the top spots?

You are correct that people rush into PPC. I see it every day. PPC is marketed as a fast, easy way to advertise, do it yourself. Problem is, most people don't know a thing about advertising and why they can't make it work, not to mention they have very strange ideas on the keywords they think people will use to find them.

[Marian Berghes]

Thats in your case Daniel, but It might not be the same for everyone.

In other markets PPC might totally out-convert SEO, in others SEO would be better.

[Daniel Molano]

Originally Posted by Lucid

Do you think however that people would have the same opinion if they realized that rankings are manipulated to get the top spots?

Of course not, that's part of why it is superior.

Read post #11 on this same thread, that should change your mind.

Originally Posted by Marian Berghes

Thats in your case Daniel, but It might not be the same for everyone.

In other markets PPC might totally out-convert SEO, in others SEO would be better.

Sorry Marian, but I don't buy it. I have split tested this a hundred times in 4 completely different niches.

Under the same scenario, same number of visitors, same keyword phrase, same times of day and all the variables being equal.

In all 100 or so tests, SEO always beats PPC in terms of conversion and ROI.

EVEN if the PPC conversions would be slightly higher (which is not the case in any of my tests), the ROI of SEO is still far superior due to the fact that the cost is way much lower.

[Steadyon]

SEO isn't free.

If you think it is, then please do some seo for free for me :-)

Seriously though, learning seo is important, but it can and does take time.

One additional "bonus" with ppc is that you can more quickly find buying keyword phrases. Then you can use these in your seo efforts.

[Daniel Molano]

Originally Posted by Steadyon

SEO isn't free.

If you think it is, then please do some seo for free for me :-)

Seriously though, learning seo is important, but it can and does take time.

One additional "bonus" with ppc is that you can more quickly find buying keyword phrases. Then you can use these in your seo efforts.

I never said it was free, I said it was essentially free.

What I did say is that the cost is way much lower as seen in post #14. And I'm talking 6-7 figures lower.

As for the rest, if you read post #9 you will see that we agree.

[MacFreddie]

20 something year old IMers have so much to learn!

The MOST successful business people do every type of Media that gives them a Return on their Investment.

SEO, PPC, Banner ads, Yellow Pages, Val Pak, Telemarketing, Direct Mail, etc...

Why would you leave any money on the table?

IMers waste too much time focusing on SEO, and they leave tons of money on the table.

A very successful business does it all as long as you can Scale your operations.

Us old timers can teach you Grasshoppers a lot, this is how my college kids talk.

I always read your threads Daniel and you are indeed good at SEO, but let me tell you this. YOU could never win in business against a Marketer like me who will use all avenues of Marketing.

Change your Paradigm and BIG money will flow.

Peace,

Mac

Originally Posted by Daniel Molano

I was thinking of making a huge thread about the advantages/disadvantages of SEO Vs PPC.

But I figured a small list would do better, it's actually quite simple.

Here's why organic SEO is better than PPC:

1. SEO traffic is far more targeted.

Absolutely NOT true.

Everyone knows that PPC is paid advertising.

No they don't, you would be amazed how many people don't know this. Your problem is that you are an IMer and not everyone thinks this way. I talk to Offline customers EVERY day, when I show them Google search results they have NO clue about which ads are paid and organic searches. Go ahead and ask your parents, see if they know.

Meanwhile, outside the Internet Marketing niche, most people don't know that SE rankings can be "manipulated".

So they genuinely perceive it as a Google recommendation if you're on the top spots.

2. SEO is essentially free.

I hate when IMers say this, biggest Misnomer out there. This is CRACK talk. You must spend many hours to get high SEO rankings. Either you PAY someone or you do it yourself. And let me tell YOU, if YOU are making big money then YOUR time is worth a lot. More than $20 hour.

You might want to outsource some stuff or hire a service, but you can pretty much do everything yourself for free.

Whereas in PPC there's keywords rising to above $1 a click, that's insane.

So what? If I can get a ROI from PPC then by all means do it. I know clicks that cost $50, yes $50 per click.

3. Authority Value.

A few months ago I made a poll here discussing what would define an authority site.

The general consensus was that the top organic SEO rankings for the most competitive niche keywords would define one.

Conclusion

The only particular advantage of PPC is that it can be implemented fairly fast. You can have a campaign running within a few hours.

Again, dead wrong. Let me teach all you Young Grasshoppers about MARKETING.

I know a guy who purchased a business for 3 Million dollars because they had great revenue mostly based upon SEO. 5 Months after he bought the business they got GOOGLE slapped and his business dropped 90%.

Long story short, by the time he finally got his rankings up again he had already fired 20 employees, and it destroyed his business.

The NEW business owner came in and hired a GURU at PPC to help him reestablish business. They now do PPC and SEO. He knows exactly what to do with PPC should his rankings with SEO fall.

50% of his sales are now PPC based and business is higher than it ever was with the old owner who ONLY relied upon SEO.

Any Brick & Mortar business built upon SEO will fail, period.

However, that is a disadvantage by itself, people rush into their PPC campaigns without doing the proper research previously and lose a lot of money.

Anyway, my best example of SEO power would be May 16, 2009.

Thanks to my "impossible" business consulting ranking (300,000 monthly searches and 40,000,000 competing sites), I made $125,000 USD from 3 sales in 1 day.

My guess is that when you're positioned next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine it really helps.

What would someone believe when they see your site there?

"Google places this guy next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine, he must be something".

The above quoted text is what a client told me he thought once he saw that precise ranking. I'm talking about an offline client, who had no idea about Internet Marketing until after he paid me $50k.

It's true that Organic has more credibility but it doesn't mean PPC doesn't work.

Talk about insane traffic and ultimate branding.

What are your thoughts?

[Jeremy Wilson]

Interestingly enough, a new study that was just released seems to show the exact opposite and that PPC converts better than SEO.

The summary is here:
Paid search is more likely than organic to bring in buyers, study shows | InternetRetailer.com - Daily News

You can get the full report (which seems pretty thorough) here:
http://www.engineready.com/pdf/Engin...2009Update.pdf

This is actually the second year they have done the study and this year they compare last year's results to this year's. And conversion rates and value/visit for PPC have increased while for SEO they have stayed the same or declined.

If anything, this shows that no blanket statement about which works best can be used across every industry...so do both!

[Daniel Molano]

Originally Posted by MacFreddie

20 something year old IMers have so much to learn!

The MOST successful business people do every type of Media that gives them a Return on their Investment.

SEO, PPC, Banner ads, Yellow Pages, Val Pak, Telemarketing, Direct Mail, etc...

Why would you leave any money on the table?

IMers waste too much time focusing on SEO, and they leave tons of money on the table.

A very successful business does it all as long as you can Scale your operations.

Us old timers can teach you Grasshoppers a lot, this is how my college kids talk.

I always read your threads Daniel and you are indeed good at SEO, but let me tell you this. YOU could never win in business against a Marketer like me who will use all avenues of Marketing.

Change your Paradigm and BIG money will flow.

Peace,

Mac

You're talking about ROI? You should really read through the entire thread before posting.

Post #14 already counter arguments most of your points succesfully.

The only valid point which I believe you have made is in diversifying your sources of traffic. Not relying on one single third party method. I do agree with that.

And for the record, I broke 6 figures in profit seven months ago and I'm about to break 7 in sales.

I started doing internet marketing exactly 1 year and 3 months ago.

I'm sure you and your college kids did better at 22 with 1 year worth of experience.

[Daniel Molano]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Wilson

Interestingly enough, a new study that was just released seems to show the exact opposite and that PPC converts better than SEO.

The summary is here:
Paid search is more likely than organic to bring in buyers, study shows | InternetRetailer.com - Daily News

You can get the full report (which seems pretty thorough) here:
http://www.engineready.com/pdf/Engin...2009Update.pdf

This is actually the second year they have done the study and this year they compare last year's results to this year's. And conversion rates and value/visit for PPC have increased while for SEO they have stayed the same or declined.

If anything, this shows that no blanket statement about which works best can be used across every industry...so do both!

I have seen that case study before, it's pretty decent.

But they base their results on just traffic coming in from the search engines, PPC, direct traffic and/or referral.

They don't even take into account the most important variables, the keywords themeselves.

My split tests are done by taking the traffic from my rankings within the top 5 positions for a specific keyword and placing them against the traffic coming from the exact match keyword in PPC.

The variables used within that case study don't even make it a competent analysis.

Measurements are based on overall random traffic from the 4 sources...

But yes, you're right. Both methods should be used. I do use them both.

[MacFreddie]

Daniel,

You're being defensive, we're all hear to learn. I learn something every day at WF including from 20 year olds.

I don't read entire threads all the time, sometimes there are 8 pages.

I responded to your Initial post "Why Organic SEO beats PPC."

I don't agree that SEO beats PPC. In some cases yes, in others no.

I'm happy that you're making good money, I'm trying to help you make even more.

I know a guy who spends $200,000 a month with PPC and makes $600,000 a month in return, like clockwork. $400,000 a month profit, not bad for PPC marketing. I'll take 5 Million pure profit a year living in CA on the beach.

I've always respected what you've done, but there are many ways to make money on the Internet.

I do expect my son do make very good money, I think he's crazier than me. My son knows more than 99% of business owners and most here. I keep telling him every trick I know. He keeps telling me "Dad, I know, I know, you've told me a thousand times."

Diversify your marketing Daniel and come back in 6 months and tell us how you made 300% more money, that would be great.

Mac

Originally Posted by Daniel Molano

You're talking about ROI? You should really read through the entire thread before posting.

Post #14 already counter arguments most of your points succesfully.

The only valid point which I believe you have made is in diversifying your sources of traffic. Not relying on one single third party method. I do agree with that.

And for the record, I broke 6 figures in profit seven months ago and I'm about to break 7 in sales.

I started doing internet marketing exactly 1 year and 3 months ago.

I'm sure you and your college kids did better at 22 with 1 year worth of experience.

[Kappa]

I think that is wholly dependent on what you are selling and what your business model is.

[Daniel Molano]

Originally Posted by MacFreddie

Daniel,

You're being defensive, we're all hear to learn. I learn something every day at WF including from 20 year olds.

I don't read entire threads all the time, sometimes there are 8 pages.

I responded to your Initial post "Why Organic SEO beats PPC."

I don't agree that SEO beats PPC. In some cases yes, in others no.

I'm happy that you're making good money, I'm trying to help you make even more.

I know a guy who spends $200,000 a month with PPC and makes $600,000 a month in return, like clockwork. $400,000 a month profit, not bad for PPC marketing. I'll take 5 Million pure profit a year living in CA on the beach.

I've always respected what you've done, but there are many ways to make money on the Internet.

I do expect my son do make very good money, I think he's crazier than me. My son knows more than 99% of business owners and most here. I keep telling him every trick I know. He keeps telling me "Dad, I know, I know, you've told me a thousand times."

Diversify your marketing Daniel and come back in 6 months and tell us how you made 300% more money, that would be great.

Mac

Yes, perhaps I was being defensive, there was a condescending tone in your reply.

Alright, maybe I should rephrase.

My tests and tracking have shown better results from SEO than PPC. Not that the PPC doesn't work, it still brings a pretty good ROI.

But ask yourself one question Mac, that guy you know, imagine the potential ROI he would be getting if he was ranking #1 for those same terms he is targeting with his PPC campaigns.

The cost would be of at least $190,000 less (that's considering he spends $10,000 on SEO, which is a lot to spend on SEO).

So he could potentially be making $590,000 profit, instead of $400k.

On the other hand, I do agree 100% with your diversification statement, and I do to an extent diversify.

Although most of my effort is indeed spent on SEO, and perhaps I should diversify even more.

[Julian Lockhart]

Daniel - Great Post.

You have inspired to pick a big niche to take on.

This is clearly where the long term big money is.

[XFactor]

Originally Posted by Daniel Molano

I was thinking of making a huge thread about the advantages/disadvantages of SEO Vs PPC.

But I figured a small list would do better, it's actually quite simple.

Here's why organic SEO is better than PPC:

1. SEO traffic is far more targeted.

Everyone knows that PPC is paid advertising.

Meanwhile, outside the Internet Marketing niche, most people don't know that SE rankings can be "manipulated".

So they genuinely perceive it as a Google recommendation if you're on the top spots.

2. SEO is essentially free.

You might want to outsource some stuff or hire a service, but you can pretty much do everything yourself for free.

Whereas in PPC there's keywords rising to above $1 a click, that's insane.

3. Authority Value.

A few months ago I made a poll here discussing what would define an authority site.

The general consensus was that the top organic SEO rankings for the most competitive niche keywords would define one.

Conclusion

The only particular advantage of PPC is that it can be implemented fairly fast. You can have a campaign running within a few hours.

However, that is a disadvantage by itself, people rush into their PPC campaigns without doing the proper research previously and lose a lot of money.

Anyway, my best example of SEO power would be May 16, 2009.

Thanks to my "impossible" business consulting ranking (300,000 monthly searches and 40,000,000 competing sites), I made $125,000 USD from 3 sales in 1 day.

My guess is that when you're positioned next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine it really helps.

What would someone believe when they see your site there?

"Google places this guy next to IBM and Entrepreneur Magazine, he must be something".

The above quoted text is what a client told me he thought once he saw that precise ranking. I'm talking about an offline client, who had no idea about Internet Marketing until after he paid me $50k.

Talk about insane traffic and ultimate branding.

What are your thoughts?

I like your style, nothing to add but that I agree.

- John

[Jeremy Wilson]

That was kind of my point though. Every single one of us have different metrics, markets, products, landing pages, etc.

So undoubtedly some will find far greater success with PPC vs SEO and vice versa.

My skills are strongest with PPC and I outsource the SEO side of things. And the great benefit of years of PPC experience in various markets is you know the keywords that convert so the keywords to target for seo or a no brainer.

Like I said it's all a balance

[Darth Executor]

Originally Posted by Daniel Molano

I've been holding that ranking for 5 months already, it really isn't that hard if you have my unprecendented authority site model.

I have similar or even better rankings within 3 other niches, for "impossible" 7 figure keywords just like that one as well.

After tens of thousands of dollars and countless hours invested, my team and I have developed a 100% white-hat authority site model which allows me (or anyone) to rank for any keyword whatsoever, regardless of competition and within 1-3 months.

Not to mention that with the Caffeine update coming, it's even better, I'm ranking #1 all across the board.



SEO

People believe you are being recommended by the almightly Google themselves. People don't know it's advertising/publicity.

Why do you think word of mouth is the most effective form of advertising, because it's not perceived as publicity at all.

PPC

Everyone knows PPC is paid advertising, that people had to pay money to get up there, whereas with SEO they don't.

For example, I never ever click on adsense ads, because I know people just paid for that spot. But I still do my searches on Google, eventhough I know they have probably been manipulated.

And that's just me because I'm an expert on the subject. Consider the grand majority of people has no clue that organic rankings can be manipulated.

How is it not more targeted?

Because targeted traffic refers to traffic that's looking for what you're offering (IE: quality). You're getting your traffic from the same place the PPC people are getting theirs: people searching on google for the keyword you're targeting. It's the same traffic, only conversion rates might differ. I'm not sure how their knowing someone pays for ads reduces the traffic quality those ads get.

[Black Hat Cat]

After tens of thousands of dollars and countless hours invested, my team and I have developed a 100% white-hat authority site model which allows me (or anyone) to rank for any keyword whatsoever, regardless of competition and within 1-3 months.

Interesting, considering you said seo was basically free, lol.

[Justin Jordan]

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

Interesting, considering you said seo was basically free, lol.

Not really. Basically free to implement doesn't mean basically free to work out how to do it.

[Daniel Molano]

Originally Posted by Darth Executor

Because targeted traffic refers to traffic that's looking for what you're offering (IE: quality). You're getting your traffic from the same place the PPC people are getting theirs: people searching on google for the keyword you're targeting. It's the same traffic, only conversion rates might differ. I'm not sure how their knowing someone pays for ads reduces the traffic quality those ads get.

I guess you're right under that definition.

What I mean is that the leads generated by SEO are hotter than those generated by PPC.

The traffic itself converts better.

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

Interesting, considering you said seo was basically free, lol.

Well I went out of the way to develop it.

It's essentially free if you know how to do it.

But you have a point, I should rephrase and say the cost is extremely low rather than free.

[Affiliit]

I wouldn't say either is better. You could make an argument that either method is better, they are just different.

[TheBillionaire]

Originally Posted by Justin Jordan

Not really. Basically free to implement doesn't mean basically free to work out how to do it.

Time is money , so really nothing is free.

Having said that , one could easily build a wordpress/blogger/insert free blog here type of website, perform some SEO magic with an offer and make money with SEO that way.

There's ways to do things with no budget and SEO, you just have to have the mindset to do it.

[kkchoon]

Originally Posted by TheBillionaire

Time is money , so really nothing is free.

Having said that , one could easily build a wordpress/blogger/insert free blog here type of website, perform some SEO magic with an offer and make money with SEO that way.

There's ways to do things with no budget and SEO, you just have to have the mindset to do it.

When doing massive scaling with SEO, you need a lot of automation and outsource, and that equals to money (budget).

I love SEO, and start learning SEO 3 years back, Daniel forum posts did helped me a lot!

I still think PPC is not a bad way to generate huge income in the shortest time, but I think SEO can provide the same income but you only need to invest to rank it, the maintenance cost is relatively low, a lot lower!

If you want to game in SEO, you need to build up authority sites, and many authority sites, so you can rank for any keyword on demand, and your overall traffic cost will be lower...

- Kok Choon

[Kevin_Hutto]

There is no content network for SEO. I do major sales every month in one niche just from the content network. I believe in SEO and have used it for years for myself and formerly for my clients, but thats something that SEO cant do. So, each has its benefits.

[Joshua.E1]

Well I disagree with you that organic SEO beats PPC, to me the both of them are not fighting against each other, but complementing each other.

Well, why do I say that?

In the beginning of your new website, your SEO is not going to work, because it takes time to be properly rank.

So PPC will come in to bring in the traffic, not just the traffic, but the actual keywords search terms people are using online to find your products or services. This is gold from search engines.

Next you can use the keywords that has the most impress or conversions to use in on your web pages in your website.

Continue to run the PPC even though the SEO is in the top 3, why?

Because if you are able to impress the searchers online that you can rank both in PPC and SEO, it will give them the impression that you know your customers well.

SEO does not beat PPC, or the vice versa, they complement each other.

[ricsale]

In my book SEO and PPC have their place and I use both to great effect for my clients.

I don't see how/why SEO should provide better conversion rates over PPC because it's the same keywords.

I think it may depend on the market/niche you are working in. I can imagine (but have no real proof) that in certain niches you would get a lower conversion rate from PPC. It was certainly the case that the PPC conversion rates were lower in the 'make money online' niche that I worked for a while than they were for other niches that I have worked in. But here I am comparing PPC with PPC for different niches.

I tend, like others, to use PPC to search out the best converting keyword phrases then use SEO to promote the best.

But I tend to leave the PPC running for even the best keywords. I have found that switching PPC off can actually hurt the bottom line. The fact is that the more times you appear on page one (PPC or Organic) the more traffic you get.

So even if you are at #1 on the organic (SEO) results you can still get more traffic and sales by complementing this with PPC. OK yes you are paying for the clicks but in my experience it does not reduce the traffic from the organic (SEO) search engine listing. So the net result is a gain.

Does anyone else see this?

Rich

[robinjane]

I also suggest that you read Andrew Goodman's ebook. It's a fairly light read and has some very valuable information. It was one of the first resources that I used when I first started with SEO/Affiliate Programs. Also I suggest googling the term "pre sell" + affiliate, you will find alot of websites with very valuable information about that.




Tom.....

[nuneybopper]

Right on, organic search is where it's at, if you know how to work it...plus, I've seen results in literally SECONDS, from posting content to the right places.

[Daniel Molano]

Originally Posted by Joshua.E1

Well I disagree with you that organic SEO beats PPC, to me the both of them are not fighting against each other, but complementing each other.

...

Because if you are able to impress the searchers online that you can rank both in PPC and SEO, it will give them the impression that you know your customers well.

SEO does not beat PPC, or the vice versa, they complement each other.

Originally Posted by ricsale

In my book SEO and PPC have their place and I use both to great effect for my clients.

I don't see how/why SEO should provide better conversion rates over PPC because it's the same keywords.

...

So even if you are at #1 on the organic (SEO) results you can still get more traffic and sales by complementing this with PPC. OK yes you are paying for the clicks but in my experience it does not reduce the traffic from the organic (SEO) search engine listing. So the net result is a gain.

Does anyone else see this?

Rich

Those are both excellent points, and from that perspective they make sense.

My point is coming from a sole option angle.

If you had PPC ad space #1 for exact match keyword a, and you also had organic search engine ranking #1 for that same exact match keyword a.

The organic SE ranking would outperform the ad in both CTR and conversion. At least that's what my split tests have shown.

I never said PPC was useless, I use it myself as I said in post #9.

But under the assumption that I had to pick one to start, because I could only afford one to begin with (as is the case for many Warriors), I would go with SEO for the reasons outlined throughout this entire thread.

[MacFreddie]

I don't think anyone here is going to change their mind.

I use SEO, PPC, Banner Ads, Yellow Pages, Direct Mail, you name the media and I use it.

Of course, if you have NO money you have no choice but to use SEO, duh! In terms of reliability I'll take PPC.

So many people including WF members don't understand PPC. When you are really good at PPC campaigns and test constantly the world is your oyster. You can take any product and Dominate the competition in any market.

You can have the #1 position and pay less than the guy who's #5.

Google encourages a more reliable platform and rules with PPC, they constantly change the rules with SEO.

With my "Offline" Brick & Mortar customers I can have a campaign up and running in minutes and their phones start ringing that day.

I already know what your going to say Daniel so save the speech. Take off the blinders.

Mac

[Daniel Molano]

Originally Posted by MacFreddie

I don't think anyone here is going to change their mind.

I use SEO, PPC, Banner Ads, Yellow Pages, Direct Mail, you name the media and I use it.

Of course, if you have NO money you have no choice but to use SEO, duh! In terms of reliability I'll take PPC.

So many people including WF members don't understand PPC. When you are really good at PPC campaigns and test constantly the world is your oyster. You can take any product and Dominate the competition in any market.

You can have the #1 position and pay less than the guy who's #5.

Google encourages a more reliable platform and rules with PPC, they constantly change the rules with SEO.

With my "Offline" Brick & Mortar customers I can have a campaign up and running in minutes and their phones start ringing that day.

I already know what your going to say Daniel so save the speech. Take off the blinders.

Mac

I know how to get a QS of 8-10 in all my PPC campaigns, the ROI of SEO is still far superior.

Under my model, ranking top 5 for a keyword that has millions of monthly searches organically costs me between $300-$500 USD.

Let's take a 1,000,000 monthly searches keyword for example. In reality, you will most likely only get 40% of that traffic, even at position #1.

But let's do a worst case scenario... Let's call position #5 in which I would only get 10%. Meaning 100,000 unique visitors per month.

Those keywords, don't go below $1 CPC minimum price, even with a QS of 10.

So you just spent $99,700-$99,500 USD per month more, for the exact same result. Actually a worse result, because the CTR and conversion will be lower.

PPC more reliable? Perhaps. But Google has never slapped me.

In fact, with the upcoming Google "Caffeine", I got Google Patted. All my most competitve rankings have risen to #1 in there.

I do agree with you when it comes to diversification.

However, I still stand by my statement, that if I could pick only one method (even if you had the money to afford any other), SEO would be the best option.

It's superior in CTR, Authority, Costs, ROI and Conversions.

What does PPC have? Speed and Reliability.

Easy choice.

Now, under the assumption that you can afford all methods. The best option would be to use PPC so that you can track down the best converting keywords, and also to test specific niche markets.

Once you have the winners, PPC until you have top 5 organic SEO rankings, then drop PPC and SEO to the end.

If you get slapped, resume PPC until you recuperate rankings. Simple enough.

And one more thing Mac.

Have you ever achieved Google One Box #1 rankings for your offline brick & mortar clients? Beats PPC any day.

[Steven Carl Kelly]

I use both, I teach both.

Organic SEO is superior to PPC. Also, PPC is superior to organic SEO.

[Julian Lockhart]

Originally Posted by Daniel Molano

I know how to get a QS of 8-10 in all my PPC campaigns, the ROI of SEO is still far superior.

Under my model, ranking top 5 for a keyword that has millions of monthly searches organically costs me between $300-$500 USD.

Let's take a 1,000,000 monthly searches keyword for example. In reality, you will most likely only get 40% of that traffic, even at position #1.

But let's do a worst case scenario... Let's call position #5 in which I would only get 10%. Meaning 100,000 unique visitors per month.

Those keywords, don't go below $1 CPC minimum price, even with a QS of 10.

So you just spent $99,700-$99,500 USD per month more, for the exact same result. Actually a worse result, because the CTR and conversion will be lower.

PPC more reliable? Perhaps. But Google has never slapped me.

In fact, with the upcoming Google "Caffeine", I got Google Patted. All my most competitve rankings have risen to #1 in there.

I do agree with you when it comes to diversification.

However, I still stand by my statement, that if I could pick only one method (even if you had the money to afford any other), SEO would be the best option.

It's superior in CTR, Authority, Costs, ROI and Conversions.

What does PPC have? Speed and Reliability.

Easy choice.

Now, under the assumption that you can afford all methods. The best option would be to use PPC so that you can track down the best converting keywords, and also to test specific niche markets.

Once you have the winners, PPC until you have top 5 organic SEO rankings, then drop PPC and SEO to the end.

If you get slapped, resume PPC until you recuperate rankings. Simple enough.

And one more thing Mac.

Have you ever achieved Google One Box #1 rankings for your offline brick & mortar clients?

I don't get why you would drop PPC after top 5 ranking when PPC was/is profitable.

It makes sense test what would happen to overall results if you keep both.

While running both Campaigns:
Do you lose/add SE traffic?
Does it effect SE conversions?
Does PPC traffic convert better, faster, more $$$
Does using PPC grow market share? If you own serps and PPC your competitors will have less visibility.

If you can go out an spend additional $$$ and make it pay why would you not do it?

[catalina_sandor]

thanks daniel, much appreciated..

[Daniel Molano]

Originally Posted by Julian Lockhart

I don't get why you would drop PPC after top 5 ranking when PPC was/is profitable.

It makes sense test what would happen to overall results if you keep both.

While running both Campaigns:
Do you lose/add SE traffic?
Does it effect SE conversions?
Does PPC traffic convert better, faster, more $$$
Does using PPC grow market share? If you own serps and PPC your competitors will have less visibility.

If you can go out an spend additional $$$ and make it pay why would you not do it?

I have kept both, the traffic remains constant, except it gets divided.

You do get a bit more traffic by keeping both. But an additional 5% or so traffic increase, is not worth the cost of $50,000 extra per month at all (that's in the case of my 1,000,000 monthly searches ranking).

The ROI just doesn't cut it.

- Dan

P.S: Where did Mac's last post go? It was a good one.

[Paul McQuillan]

So many people worry about driving traffic. I know people that will have
50,000 views and 0 sales.

The key is quality traffic. PPC can rape a budget (more so if we are
talking about the $50 per click).

PPC has it's place, but it's not in the same league as smart SEO.

Congrats on your success Dan, I find it inspirational


Paul

[greff]

Daniel,

Looks like you entered the lion's den.

Sometimes SEO works, sometimes it doesn't And it's not always dependent on how knowledgable the SEO "expert" is.

I do SEO but more often than not when I take on a client I advise him/her to do some serious PPC until the SEO catches up, if it ever does. I know this costs more but most clients I have want to make progress quickly and most have some money to invest.

So, yes, I would love to have the time to allow good SEO to mature. Problem is that it can take a lot of time. As you know, it takes months to get Google to trust a website and take down the barriers (sandbox). You also must know that one of the algorithms is how long a website has been on the web.

Also, most PPC is under $10 per click and I think the majority is under $5. That's my experience anyway.

Good luck to you!