The Overrating of Link-Wheels...

[David McKee]

The new big buzz in Internet Marketing is all about "Link Wheels". I just completed a rather extensive research project with regard to how search engine spiders and page-rank algorithms work, and I have come to the conclusion that Link-Wheels are at least half-overrated.

The linking of high ranking, busy social networking sites to your "money-site" certainly is a very good thing to do and will bring traffic, link juice and page rank to your sites. But the questionable part of link wheels is the "wheel" part itself. That would be the "spoke to spoke" links.

I submit they are not that important - and in fact, you time creating these could be better utilized. They don't hurt any, but they are not the "great discovery" they are sometimes promoted as. The fact is, busy social networks are already heavily linked to each other by tens of thousands or even millions of existing links. You are not going to change the juicing rate with your link here. Spiders "crawl" the web in distinct patterns, creating massive lists of content, content changes, new links, dead links, etc. You are not going to make that spider move down your link when it is examining millions at a time. The only other benefit is driving prospects, and while such a link might drive a prospect from one social site to another social site - what you really wanted is to drive them to the Money site.

I have even seen some opinions that express the idea that the juice "goes round and round the wheel" - which is, of course, untrue. Spiders traverse the nodes only once.

So my analysis shows that link "Flowers", that is the spokes of social networks directly to your money sites, will drive massive traffic to your site, the wheel part does not really help much, and may even hurt if a prospect is following that link but never goes to your sales page.

I wrote more about this on my blog - see my sig.

I would love to know your opinions about the wheel links...

[tomw]

David,

none of your sig links work.

"Safari can’t open the page “http://www.achievemaster.com/” because Safari can’t connect to the server “www.achievemaster.com”."

Tom

[Andyhenry]

Link Wheels are 5 years old.

I have no idea why people have suddenly started going on about them like they're new again.

They worked a while ago but these days they're not so effective.

I think I ran a WSO here 3 years ago showing how to do them.

People seem to be so gullible right now about anything to do with traffic and links.

Not much has really changed.

It's easy to get links and if you just focus on high PR links from different sites (different IPs and on different platforms), there are more than enough places to get links to keep anyone busy full time.

I know some people still think this is hard because they're thinking you have to do it all manually or do it all yourself, but in reality anyone can get quick results with just a little effort and focus.

God knows how many times people have shared here how to find high PR sites and multi-site hosting platforms where you can find sites all day that allow comments or allow you to create a web page or site of your own (This forum is a great example with its blog section).

People need to just stop relying on everyone else to tell/sell them how to do it and use their brain and just do a little research.

This is one of those subjects that no matter how many times you tell/show people what to do, they still end up not doing it and buying the same advice wrapped up in a new (to them) title.

Sigh.....

[David McKee]

Originally Posted by tomw

David,

none of your sig links work.

"Safari can’t open the page “http://www.achievemaster.com/” because Safari can’t connect to the server “www.achievemaster.com”."

Tom

Yeah, hostmonster was down for about 30 minutes - all my sites were broken.

[David McKee]

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

Link Wheels are 5 years old.
People need to just stop relying on everyone else to tell/sell them how to do it and use their brain and just do a little research.

This is one of those subjects that no matter how many times you tell/show people what to do, they still end up not doing it and buying the same advice wrapped up in a new (to them) title.

Sigh.....

I could not have said it better.

From my perspective of doing actual software and mathematical research, the whole concept is bogus that some "Special" topology will return results greater than simply having good PR links as you just said (hence the "link flower" which was a bit tongue in cheek ).

--DTM

[Matt Gannon]

what about a link line instead of a link wheel web2 --> web2 --> web2 --> web2 --> your site.

is this any more effective?

[Andyhenry]

Originally Posted by David McKee

I could not have said it better.

From my perspective of doing actual software and mathematical research, the whole concept is bogus that some "Special" topology will return results greater than simply having good PR links as you just said (hence the "link flower" which was a bit tongue in cheek ).

--DTM

Right.

It's like people that hear you can cheat at roulette by constantly betting more each time you lose on black or red, because as soon as you win - you're up.

It 'sounds' logical and like it makes sense, but in reality even if you had pockets deep enough to do it - the odds still even out in the long run.

With linking, it's REALLY simple - but people are always looking for ways to complicate it and trick themselves into thinking they're fooling Google.

Any method that aims to fool Google is likely to end up penalised, so it makes no sense for most people to do it, especially when it's not necessary.

Andy

[edwatki]

In some ways I am of the belief (and Google states) that no link to your site can harm you. (Otherwise competitors would do this).. So any link is a good link.

[la dominatrix]

Originally Posted by edwatki

In some ways I am of the belief (and Google states) that no link to your site can harm you. (Otherwise competitors would do this).. So any link is a good link.

That may well be correct per se, but there are far more effective ways of spending youtr time
La dominatrix

[edwatki]

I would agree but think they should be included as part of a wider link building strategy.

[Burtgummer]

I think the reason that people link from site to site to make a wheel is because all of those 2.0 sites are linked to the same pages of that niche, and those same pages have links to the money site. So instead of a spider going through a bunch of different links to get to your same article on another 2.0 site, they just need to take the one on the current page already.

I *think* that's the theory behind it. Whether it works or not is something that I'm trying to find out.

[edwatki]

I'm sure that link wheels will develop over time.. its an interesting theory and i'd be very interested if you do find out.

Theres loads of new sites popping up with new theorys, if i fid anything new i'll post it.

[Tom Brite]

The main reason i use 'link wheels' is simply so that i can get those extra 20 or whatever backlinks from those sites for both backlinks and extra traffic flow as each of those sites just like an article directory has a search engine and links to other similar mini-sites in each web 2.0 property.

Now then as for the linking them together in a web sort of fashion 1 to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 1 etc ive honestly not tested to see if its better or worse.

My strategy is just simply using those web 2.0 sites as a barrier so that i can add as many backlinks to them as i want (not so much with squidoo as they seem to hate spam or whatever) but then those backlinks hold more juice which gets fed down to my website (ok granted and to their site too but less than gets fed through to mine because i use 2 or 3 links on each).

That means that i then have for example 20 web 2.0 properties all linking down to my money site and bringing me traffic as well as also helping me to rank for my keyphrase that i use as the anchor text and finally and of course the power of these web 2.0 sites gets increased as i build backlinks to them as fast as i like.

Then by the end of it i will have for example 20 or so web 2.0 sites all with a PR rankings and pumping juice and becoming authority backlinks leading to my money site.

Hope that all makes sense to you.

But my kinda idea and thoughts were that by linking it to the next property (normally i 'hide' that link as best i can or add it inbetween the article so as less people click on it). Then it will cause the next web 2.0 property to be indexed quicker and also the pr juice to flow to the next 2.0 site and so on and so on... as for if that actually works or not im unsure but using web 2.0 'rings\webs\link wheels\flowers' actually works thats a big YES!

Tom Brite

[David McKee]

Originally Posted by Matt Gannon

what about a link line instead of a link wheel web2 --> web2 --> web2 --> web2 --> your site.

is this any more effective?

Again, the most important link will be the last one that goes from web2-->your site. How much juice is that bringing, and more importantly, how many visitors to web2 are then clicking on the link to your site?

What gets me is that I rarely hear about people talking about how often terms are searched for - if you were to go to a few dozen sites and search for your own site from the google bar (so the search is actually done from that web host) you would start to rank higher because google saves information on how often terms are searched for. So you could go to all the hosted blogs you know that have google search bars and perform a search from there.

There are lists on this forum that conatain hundreds and hundreds of directory services, aggregators, tutorial directories, article directories. If you post a single link on each of those to your site you will get tons of juice. Then there is RSS, social networks ,the list goes on and on.

That is how it is done - hard work, lots of hours, automating where you can, building a doubly opted in mail list and mailing to it regularly, treating your customers fairly, using the best copywriting you can get your hands on, and testing everything.

There - I just posted the most significant things you can do to drive traffic, and make money online, except for one...

And number one is... Have a great product.

You simply cannot get past that one. period.

David T. McKee

[David McKee]

Originally Posted by Tom Brite

But my kinda idea and thoughts were that by linking it to the next property (normally i 'hide' that link as best i can or add it inbetween the article so as less people click on it). Then it will cause the next web 2.0 property to be indexed quicker and also the pr juice to flow to the next 2.0 site and so on and so on... as for if that actually works or not im unsure but using web 2.0 'ringswebslink wheelsflowers' actually works thats a big YES!

Well you are getting tons of juice from the powerful social sites that carry PR of 6, 7, 8 - but the links from one social site to the other really does nothing to increase indexing because those sites are already heavily indexed by Google every day - my main problem with the whole link-wheel concept is that some marketers are pushing it as some magical formula - that those spoke to spoke links are what makes it magical. It is the single link from the social site to your money site that is doing the work, and then that is repeated over and over across the various web properties. Like I said, I have even seen some promotional material that touts the concept that somehow PR juice "flows around the wheel" - which is utter bull crap.

-DTM

[David McKee]

Originally Posted by Burtgummer

I think the reason that people link from site to site to make a wheel is because all of those 2.0 sites are linked to the same pages of that niche, and those same pages have links to the money site. So instead of a spider going through a bunch of different links to get to your same article on another 2.0 site, they just need to take the one on the current page already.

I *think* that's the theory behind it. Whether it works or not is something that I'm trying to find out.

Actual spider software (you can download a ton of it) goes to a "node" (a web page) evaluates the content, compares it to a database of content looking for changes, and then collects every link off the page, again comparing it to a historical database. It then usually makes decisions on the next link it takes based on any new links and content it has found. This means that, yes, eventually even the spoke-to-spoke links in a link wheel will be traversed, however if the link takes it to a property it has already visited, it stops and goes to the next link in it's list. Any PR rating from this link goes from one spoke to the other, not to your money site.

Now, if your goal is to help juice go from Squidoo to Facebook, then have at it. As for me, I will concentrate on single level direct links from property to money site. From what I read and have learned looking at the essential Google algorithm, that makes the most sense.

--DTM

[edwatki]

i'm not sure if its link juice you will be looking for with a link wheel necessarily. Its more the relevancy of the site. In the same way a link from a highly relevant and on-theme PR0 site to yours still has value even thou there is no link juice.

[Preciseim]

In my opinion Link-Wheels are useful for seo...However (and this is a big however!) they are just ONE part of an integrated link building strategy..

You are 100% correct they are in no way a 'secret' formula that is going to guarantee sky high rankings and floods of traffic...

However I like to include link-wheels as one part of my overall seo strategy....Of course I am doing lots of other things as well...just my 2 cents...

[David McKee]

As long as it is not the focus of your strategy, no problem. I think, however, it is one of those things that gets promoted as some magic that ropes in the unaware. Most people have no clue how Google brings them search results, and no interest in finding out - they care about one thing only, and that is relevance.

It is our job to provide relevance to our key-words, and in our content.

--DTM.

[Tom Brite]

Originally Posted by David McKee

Well you are getting tons of juice from the powerful social sites that carry PR of 6, 7, 8 - but the links from one social site to the other really does nothing to increase indexing because those sites are already heavily indexed by Google every day - my main problem with the whole link-wheel concept is that some marketers are pushing it as some magical formula - that those spoke to spoke links are what makes it magical. It is the single link from the social site to your money site that is doing the work, and then that is repeated over and over across the various web properties. Like I said, I have even seen some promotional material that touts the concept that somehow PR juice "flows around the wheel" - which is utter bull crap.

-DTM

Originally Posted by David McKee

Actual spider software (you can download a ton of it) goes to a "node" (a web page) evaluates the content, compares it to a database of content looking for changes, and then collects every link off the page, again comparing it to a historical database. It then usually makes decisions on the next link it takes based on any new links and content it has found. This means that, yes, eventually even the spoke-to-spoke links in a link wheel will be traversed, however if the link takes it to a property it has already visited, it stops and goes to the next link in it's list. Any PR rating from this link goes from one spoke to the other, not to your money site.

Now, if your goal is to help juice go from Squidoo to Facebook, then have at it. As for me, I will concentrate on single level direct links from property to money site. From what I read and have learned looking at the essential Google algorithm, that makes the most sense.

--DTM

Now your getting too complicated for me lol. Bot's, Database's arrggghhh!

But now i understand a little bit more about how it works and i suppose that part about the link juice going to your money site rather than your web 2.0 sites does fit with the whole pr link juice sharing!

Time to stop taking what people say as gospel and actually testing it more again (damn i hate testing).

Thanks

Tom Brite

[madison_avenue]

A difficulty I see is the potential loss of of traffic to your money site because visitors are getting stuck in the intricacies of your link wheel, they never get to your main site. The wheel may be clogged with traffic which just clicks away, and never reaches the main site. Linking is something which cannot be controlled by building you own network but rather is driven by content and authority.

The compensation for this is supposed to be more links but these links will be become increasing devalued as everyone and his brother starts building wheels. Just like everyone and his brother started building adsense site with duplicate plr content a few years ago. Just like everyone stared building BANS site a few years ago. Eveyrone now seems to think link wheels are the holy grail when all they really are pretty impressive looking diagrams.

[David McKee]

Originally Posted by madison_avenue

A difficulty I see is the potential loss of of traffic to your money site because visitors are getting stuck in the intricacies of your link wheel, they never get to your main site. The wheel may be clogged with traffic which just clicks away, and never reaches the main site. Linking is something which cannot be controlled by building you won network but rather is driven by content and authority.

Exactly - If you go way back to when Google was still just the new kid on the block, and "Yahoo" and "Hot Bot" were the search engines of choice, we had the infamous "Link Farms" Pages with nothing but millions of links going in every direction. Try that now and your PR will go directly to zero - do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

[AdInventive]

Don't know if I agree with the assessment that the link wheel in and of itself is overrated.

Granted, speaking about it like it's the next best thing since sliced bread is nieve.

However, it still is a relatively powerful tool for ranking up not-so-competitive keywords.

Also, I know plenty of people that strictly leverage web2.0 properties and make a really good living from it. So it's not exactly true to say they're worthless either.

It's a tactic, not a strategy when it comes down to it. Tactics don't win wars, (Ranking top being the war), strategies do.

[David McKee]

I never said the wheels are worthless, to the contrary, but I am saying that spoke-to-spoke links that are not linking directly to your money site are unnecessary - and that is based on how the spider software works. The point is that the idea that this topology is somehow better than just good links from high PR sites directly to your money - when in fact they are not and your time is better utilized creating the direct links.

Call them "stars" or "flowers" or whatever. I am railing against the false notion that the spoke-to-spoke links are a magical method of increasing traffic when they are not.

-DTM

[Zach Booker]

David's already hit on this a few times but i'll say it again. Link wheels done right - work.

People get too caught up in the wheel side of things - which imo was just a selling point of the first person to pimp the idea - the wheel won't help you loads.

What helps you - with link wheels - is having 20-30 web2.0 properties that rank well by themselves out there linking to you. Couple that with some social bookmarking done to each and the whole thing is really quite powerful. (After doing one I usually end up with around 300 back links from it.)

If i'm ever trying to rank for a keyword and i'm say on page two within a week of getting a link wheel done i'll be on page 1 and most likely in the top 3 sites.

As most replies have already stated though it's not all about link wheels or blog commenting etc. It's about a balance between all aspects of link building.

Zach

[madison_avenue]

I believe 90% of your time should be spent on create quality content an 10% on link building. The problem people end up spending 90% of the time on link building and 10% on creating good content. It is no good passing thin content around intricate wheels, instead spend time on creating good content, google always finds and rewards the good content and penalizes thin content.

[Preciseim]

Originally Posted by madison_avenue

I believe 90% of your time should be spent on create quality content an 10% on link building. The problem people end up spending 90% of the time on link building and 10% on creating good content. It is no good passing thin content around intricate wheels, instead spend time on creating good content, google always finds and rewards the good content and penalizes thin content.

I would agree with you to a certain point but really you need to do backlink building. You can't just write quality content and hope that people will like it enough and link back to you. Not if you want to rank quickly anyway or even rank for competitive keywords.

My personal opinion is that it is more of a balance 50% content, 50% link building.

Just my 2 cents...

[WareTime]

I think link wheels, circles , hubs whatever became popular because at the same time we have this free mind mapping software that is great for drawing such things.

I think wheels work because links work, the downside is they are a much more detectable pattern.

Search engines rank on links and content, not so much how those links are arranged. The arrangement just made it easier for us to conceptualize it and know what step to do next.

Disclaimer: I haven't built a link wheel ever so this is based on observance of posts I've seen and my own analysis of my competitors. I could well be all wrong.