PR on backlink, what counts? is it domain ot page?

[loginname]

Hi

I come over articles about getting a free PR10 backlinks, it that story about google profiles again.

this is the article
( Get A Free PR10 Backlink! | Make Money Online )

google.com is PR10, but the profile pages are at best PR0.

So I was wondering is the domain rank or is it the page rank google using for calculating the importance of a backlink?

I think it's page rank, but I'm in doubt as I see many search articles on the Internet about getting free pr8, pr9, pr10 backlink

[dburk]

Hi loginname,

Search engines rank web pages not websites. PR or PageRank is applied at the web page level, not the domain level.

There is no benefit from the domain's homepage PR unless the internal links of the website are structured in a way that some of that link juice is passed to the inner profile page. In the case of Google profiles, they have chosen a lucky few to link to as examples and the rest have no PR being passed from pages on the Google website.

[edgray]

Totally agree with Don - you won't get much PR passed over as the PR10 solely relates to the index page of Google.

That doesn't mean to say there's no benefit - Google really values Domain Authority, which whilst we're not sure 100% the factors behind domain authority, it is most likely to apply to sites which have a lot of pages with a reasonably high PR and a decent age as well. Links from high authority sites are obviously better than those from a low authority site.

[Mike Anthony]

loginname.

Always make sure to get your advice from trusted sources not forum posters

Theres so much wrong with Dburk's ananlysis I would disregard it completely. First Google does rank websites not just pages. Its true that you won't see this directly ranked in the result pages - that is based on a number factors but domains are in fact rated based on authority (and authority is often related to PR)

Like I said don't take a forum posters word for it not even mine here is a nice link that explains whats important

Search Engine Ranking Factors | SEOmoz

Look at authority and trust of domains. Its listed as the number one factor for a sites ranking

Second, PR degrades and divides according to an algorythm. You do NOT have to have a direct link from the the high PR page to a profile page to get fractional PR juice. This is something so misunderstood I am going to have to start a thread explaining this.

Google uses an algorythm that uses division. PR juice is divided by the amount of outgoing links. As with any system that uses division you always end up with fractions. People make the constant blunder of claiming that because a pagerank tool shows zero it means there is no PR juice on that page. Not so. IF the PR on a page is not equal or greater than one then the tools will show zero. Its like a height chart in feet only. If you are 5 foot 11 inches it will still show 5 because it only shows in whole feet.

Finally multiple studies done right here by people on Warriors has indicated that Getting links that appear to be zero PR have in fact helped boosted search results.


This is most likely to be because of the fractional link juice and/or the authority of the domain itself. Actual testing has proven an effect and one of the leading authorities on SEO has indicated Google does track and rank domains in their algorythm. Don't believe a forum poster over facts.

Originally Posted by dburk

Hi loginname,

Search engines rank web pages not websites. PR or PageRank is applied at the web page level, not the domain level.

There is no benefit from the domain's homepage PR unless the internal links of the website are structured in a way that some of that link juice is passed to the inner profile page. In the case of Google profiles, they have chosen a lucky few to link to as examples and the rest have no PR being passed from pages on the Google website.

[dburk]

Originally Posted by edgray

Totally agree with Don - you won't get much PR passed over as the PR10 solely relates to the index page of Google.

That doesn't mean to say there's no benefit - Google really values Domain Authority, which whilst we're not sure 100% the factors behind domain authority, it is most likely to apply to sites which have a lot of pages with a reasonably high PR and a decent age as well. Links from high authority sites are obviously better than those from a low authority site.

Hi Ed,

It seems that there are multiple definitions of the term "Domain Authority". Some folks consider it to be TrustRank factors like domain age, how long the page has been indexed and length of domain registration, while others seem to consider it to be primarily PR. If you are in the latter camp then I agree, however I haven't seen evidence that suggests that the weight of a backlink is moderated by anything other than relevance, age of the link (not domain) and PR.

If you have some good information on how the domain itself, and not simply the PR being passed by internal links, has helped a page rank, I would love to get the source. Every analysis I have seen that implies domain authority is helpful has always included PR as the primary source of authority. So if PR is the primary factor that weights a relevant link then we can safely ignore "domain authority" as a separate significant influence.

In my experience, a relevant link from a PR 4 page on a domain with a PR2 has had significantly more ranking power than a link from a PR0 page on a PR 10 domain.

It's understandable that one might consider the PR of a domain to judge the potential traffic and potential link juice that could be passed to a profile page if, and I do mean if, the internal link structure of the website is designed to pass link juice to the page where you place your link. In the case of Google profiles (PR 10 domain) you won't even be indexed unless you get backlinks pointing to your profile page. So neither PR nor "Domain Authority" from the Google domain name helps you in the least.

[Amitywill]

Loginname nobody here can give you any 'facts' about which links are
better because the only people that know the facts are Google and
trying to get facts from them is like trying to get blood out of a stone.

However everyone has their own opinions about which links are better
and IMO the best links you can get are the ones where the page itself
has relevance, PR and few outgoing links.

These High PR domain profile back links have caused a lot of confusion
mainly because they're being branded as High PR links. In fact they're
not. The domain is high PR but the page you'll get the back link from
wont have any PR in fact to start off with it wont even be indexed!

However it's believed that Google looks at the 'neighbourhood' of back
links so having your back link on a page where the domain itself has high
PR means you'll have a back link from a 'good' neighbourhood which will
pass some trust to your site.

I like to call these High PR domain profile links 'trust links' because they
pass a bit of trust to your website. However as they're newly indexed
they wont have any PR so you wont get any PR juice from them.

It's important to get a variety of links from all different places. So don't just
think about PR when getting a back link.

But to finalize my post if you're looking to increase the PR of your own site then
PR on a do follow page is what counts because Google will pass some of that PR
to your site.

If you're back link is on a new page of a high PR domain then it wont even be
indexed let alone have any PR. So in terms of increasing the PR of your own
site getting back links from pages that actually have PR is what matters.

Will

[dburk]

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

loginname.

Always make sure to get your advice from trusted sources not forum posters

Theres so much wrong with Dburk's ananlysis I would disregard it completely. First Google does rank websites not just pages. Its true that you won't see this directly ranked in the result pages - that is based on a number factors but domains are in fact rated based on authority (and authority is often related to PR)

Like I said don't take a forum posters word for it not even mine here is a nice link that explains whats important

Search Engine Ranking Factors | SEOmoz

Look at authority and trust of domains. Its listed as the number one factor for a sites ranking

Second, PR degrades and divides according to an algorythm. You do NOT have to have a direct link from the the high PR page to a profile page to get fractional PR juice. This is something so misunderstood I am going to have to start a thread explaining this.

Google uses an algorythm that uses division. PR juice is divided by the amount of outgoing links. As with any system that uses division you always end up with fractions. People make the constant blunder of claiming that because a pagerank tool shows zero it means there is no PR juice on that page. Not so. IF the PR on a page is not equal or greater than one then the tools will show zero. Its like a height chart in feet only. If you are 5 foot 11 inches it will still show 5 because it only shows in whole feet.

Finally multiple studies done right here by people on Warriors has indicated that Getting links that appear to be zero PR have in fact helped boosted search results.


This is most likely to be because of the fractional link juice and/or the authority of the domain itself. Actual testing has proven an effect and one of the leading authorities on SEO has indicated Google does track and rank domains in their algorythm. Don't believe a forum poster over facts.

Hi Mike,

It seems you have become my own personal cyber bully. Seek help!

Are you in the camp that considers PR the primary ingredient of domain authority? If so, then I agree with your statement, except the where you say "Google does rank websites not just pages". So how can you consider me wrong if we are in total agreement about everything else?

If you are sore at me for embarrassing or disagreeing with you in another thread, please except my apologies. Folks will disagree about many things in SEO, we should try not to hold grudges and make personal attacks in this forum. There are other forums where you can have raging flame wars, it is not welcomed on this forum.

If you truly think something I said was wrong, be specific. Is it wrong to you, just because it was said by me? Or do you believe something specific was wrong? Since you are now on record with your belief that search engines rank websites instead of just web pages, why don't you tell us how you came to that conclusion?

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by dburk

Hi Mike,

It seems you have become my own personal cyber bully. Seek help! ...........If you truly think something I said was wrong, be specific.

?????? First off no need to be so touchy. I didn't respond because anything in the past but because I thought it was a post horribly wrong and would mislead people. No need to apologize for embarassing me anywhere. You never have.

I don't know how to spell it out any more than I did. I gave a link that shows that domains not just pages are considered by Google. This isn't my thesis it is the consensus of a panel or SEO experts. Read it. the link is right there. Domains have authority.

further what I wrote about PR juice is solid and IS how it works. So I've been specific. You are wrong that a link on Profile page has no benefit unless it is directly linked to from the High PR page and you are wrong to definitively state that there is no benefit besides that link when google does in fact look a domains and not just pages.

The evidence is in the link I showed and a number of studies right here in this forum that show that Profile links such as these do have benefit. To the degree that we do have frequent disagreements its because you ignore the evidence and try and wave it away by making deifintive statements without facts you can't back up. Facts don't work that way.

[Amitywill]

@Mike Anthony although I do agree with most of what you say I just
find it funny that you're talking so much about 'facts'.

Don't take this personally but YOU don't know the 'facts' on this subject.
Nobody does apart from Google. Seeing as they make so many changes
and update their algorithms several hundred times a year it's foolish
to call what you're saying 'facts'.

And the SEO Moz page you link to again doesn't show any 'facts'.
It was a survey of people's opinions. Opinions are not facts. They
may be very close to the truth but again not 'facts'.

Just thought I'd point this out.

Will

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by Amitywill

@Mike Anthony although I do agree with most of what you say I just
find it funny that you're talking so much about 'facts'.

Come on man - Read. I didn't claim any facts for myself.

FACT: A number of experiments have been done on this forum that prove that profile backlinks work and are not useless.

FACT: People who have done several experiments and are known for ranking sites have concluded that the authority of a domain is important.

It might sound nice and right to say everyone just has an opinion but Google is not superrnatura and the results are no supernatural. They exist and can be studied and people have done tests that have verified the .......wait for it.......FACTS

Now there are ton loads of things that are debatable but these two are solid.

[dburk]

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

?????? First off no need to be so touchy. I didn't respond because anything in the past but because I thought it was a post horribly wrong and would mislead people. No need to apologize for embarassing me anywhere. You never have.

I don't know how to spell it out any more than I did. I gave a link that shows that domains not just pages are considered by Google. This isn't my thesis it is the consensus of a panel or SEO experts. Read it. the link is right there. Domains have authority.

further what I wrote about PR juice is solid and IS how it works. So I've been specific. You are wrong that a link on Profile page has no benefit unless it is directly linked to from the High PR page and you are wrong to definitively state that there is no benefit besides that link when google does in fact look a domains and not just pages.

The evidence is in the link I showed and a number of studies right here in this forum that show that Profile links such as these do have benefit. To the degree that we do have frequent disagreements its because you ignore the evidence and try and wave it away by making deifintive statements without facts you can't back up. Facts don't work that way.

Hi Mike,

OK, I agree that Google "does in fact look a domains and not just pages". Allow me to clarify the context in which Google looks at domains.

When Google ranks pages (not websites) they use some data about the domain as factors in ranking that page. Data like domain age and registration length are part of the Trust factors that influence the ranking of a page.

However, I have not seen evidence that domain factors are influential on PR scores, only on ranking the page on SERP. Furthermore, I have not seen evidence that domain factors play a role in influencing the weight of a relevant backlink, which is the specific context that applies to this discussion. We are still discussing the impact of "domain authority" on backlinks, right?

When I have a backlink from a website with a very high PR (PR 10) and plenty of domain authority (google.com) I seem to get absolutely no boost at all (specifically from Google profiles). If there was something to "domain authority" influencing the power of a backlink then a Google profile should be one of the most powerful links, yet it is worthless unless you create your own backlinks to it and then it is limited to the effect of those backlinks. In otherwords it seems to have precisely the same power as any new page on other domains.

The relative power of a backlink seems to scale proportionally with the PR of the page where the link is placed, regardless of "domain authority". It's only when you consider PR as the primary source of domain authority that there seems to be a correlation. And, as you have pointed out, if internal links are structured so that the homepage links directly or indirectly to the internal page then a portion of that PR is passed to that internal page.

When you place your link on an internal page that has no links from other pages on that website, you have effectively isolated the domain factors from PR. All my tests have found those type of links worthless unless I build links to the page myself.

[edgray]

Originally Posted by dburk

Hi Ed,

It seems that there are multiple definitions of the term "Domain Authority". Some folks consider it to be TrustRank factors like domain age, how long the page has been indexed and length of domain registration, while others seem to consider it to be primarily PR. If you are in the latter camp then I agree, however I haven't seen evidence that suggests that the weight of a backlink is moderated by anything other than relevance, age of the link (not domain) and PR.

If you have some good information on how the domain itself, and not simply the PR being passed by internal links, has helped a page rank, I would love to get the source. Every analysis I have seen that implies domain authority is helpful has always included PR as the primary source of authority. So if PR is the primary factor that weights a relevant link then we can safely ignore "domain authority" as a separate significant influence.

In my experience, a relevant link from a PR 4 page on a domain with a PR2 has had significantly more ranking power than a link from a PR0 page on a PR 10 domain.

It's understandable that one might consider the PR of a domain to judge the potential traffic and potential link juice that could be passed to a profile page if, and I do mean if, the internal link structure of the website is designed to pass link juice to the page where you place your link. In the case of Google profiles (PR 10 domain) you won't even be indexed unless you get backlinks pointing to your profile page. So neither PR nor "Domain Authority" from the Google domain name helps you in the least.

For me it would seem logical to have Domain Authority dictated predominantly by the amount of PR the pages of the site have. Sites like wikipedia, for example, have a vast number of medium to high PR pages, this coupled with the age would give wikipedia it's authority.

I see your point about the Google profile, but I can't imagine Google creating pages that at some point aren't linked to or indexed.

I created a profile today to test it and see how it works.

I assume we can both agree that the links on the page have zero PR value.

Let's see if Google indexes it.

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by dburk

However, I have not seen evidence that domain factors are influential on PR scores, only on ranking the page on SERP.

Well then you need to do some reading on authority and how it factors. They are often greatly related.

Furthermore, I have not seen evidence that domain factors play a role in influencing the weight of a relevant backlink, which is the specific context that applies to this discussion. We are still discussing the impact of "domain authority" on backlinks, right?

Dburk there is ton loads of evidence you just choose to ignore it. This very forum has had several threads with tests that show that a PR 0 page on a site that has a High PR page (usually index) gives a good boost to serps. You try to explain that away is all. Authority and fractional PR are two explanations for the results

If there was something to "domain authority" influencing the power of a backlink then a Google profile should be one of the most powerful links,

Theres long been a debate as to what Google does with its own site but the OP does not limit the discussion to merely Google. You can see where he references free PR7, 8 and 9 sites. So drawing a conclusion on the basis of Google assuming they use their own site links in ranking factors is dubious. Personally I don't think they do.

Look at the thread title. this has never been a discussion exclusively about Google's profile page.

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by edgray

I see your point about the Google profile, but I can't imagine Google creating pages that at some point aren't linked to or indexed.

.

Well provided you add enough information I would assume it would since my present profile states

"Your profile is not yet eligible to be featured in Google search results"

and then instructs me to add more information (I like it private just the way it is for now) in order to have it indexed. Bu tthis goes beyond Google's profile pages. Most are not locked down like that at all.

[dburk]

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Well then you need to do some reading on authority and how it factors. They are often greatly related.

Hi Mike,

I should have mentioned that I have found "domain authority" to mean different things to different folks. So depending on the definition you subscribe to, it becomes necessary to clarify specifics. I have not found a single authoritative source on what constitutes "domain authority". Some people think of domain authority to be strictly PR, some think it is strictly domain related factors while others see it as a combination of both.

For the sake of clarity I referred to PR as separate from other domain factors, which I believe it is. If you mixed it all together then you 're not isolating the important factors from the unimportant.

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Dburk there is ton loads of evidence you just choose to ignore it. This very forum has had several threads with tests that show that a PR 0 page on a site that has a High PR page (usually index) gives a good boost to serps. You try to explain that away is all. Authority and fractional PR are two explanations for the results

I agree with fractional PR, and I believe you cannot know the current real-time PR. So while you may be staring at a toolbar display of 0, the actual PR could be closer to 3.

I am fairly certain that PR is derived from inbound links, so when there are no inbound links to an inner page, then not only is there no PR, it will not be indexed.

If there are inbound links, then I believe the current PR is derived from those inbound links. When there are no inbound links from the parent website I believe all of the PR accumulated is from external links. If PR and domain authority are one and the same, then the homepage PR, or "domain authority" is not a factor weighting your backlink power unless those internal links are present.

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Theres long been a debate as to what Google does with its own site but the OP does not limit the discussion to merely Google. You can see where he references free PR7, 8 and 9 sites. So drawing a conclusion on the basis of Google assuming they use their own site links in ranking factors is dubious. Personally I don't think they do.

Look at the thread title. this has never been a discussion exclusively about Google's profile page.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that what I said applies "exclusively" to Google profiles, I was offering it up as a specific example. The same applies to all other domains in my opinion. I simply used that example because nobody could doubt the PR or domain authority of Google. Or, I thought that was the case, apparently you think Google gives their profiles special treatment within their algorithm. I suppose that is possible but it seems to be very much out of character for Google.

[dburk]

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Well provided you add enough information I would assume it would since my present profile states

"Your profile is not yet eligible to be featured in Google search results"

and then instructs me to add more information (I like it private just the way it is for now) in order to have it indexed. Bu tthis goes beyond Google's profile pages. Most are not locked down like that at all.

That just means you profile is incomplete. If you fill in the minimal amount of information for a profile, you will be eligible to be featured in Google search results. However, you will not yet be indexed. You essentially have an orphaned page. You still need to get backlinks pointing to that profile page before you will ever be indexed.

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by dburk

I am fairly certain that PR is derived from inbound links, so when there are no inbound links to an inner page, then not only is there no PR, it will not be indexed.

You are stuck in your singular Google example. As someone who comes across hundreds of profile pages a month I can't think of many inner pages that are not linked to the High Pr page. This is imaginary for most sites. Perhaps for pasword protected user profiles but they shouldn't be an example either.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that what I said applies "exclusively" to Google profiles, I was offering it up as a specific example. The same applies to all other domains in my opinion.

No it doesn't for the simple reason that Google locks off its profiles from its main pages in away that is not the case for most domains. Thats why as I stated it is a poor example and drawing conclusions from it are completely of base. Google's profiles act as a different site altogether where as most Profile sites are part of a community site with the profiles built into the site itself and not separate..

Or, I thought that was the case, apparently you think Google gives their profiles special treatment within their algorithm.

I never said any such thing I stated that Google is most likely to leave itself out of its own ranking not just profile sites but any user based content site. It doesn't require a change in any algorythm but leaving a site out. Its own. I don't see why that is so strange for you. I wouldn't be surprised at all that Google wouldn't include any of its own property where the content is user generated.

But thats a side point. The fact is that you keep trying to draw conclusions based on Google profiles. Thats an error. As I said and is evident if you have ever looked at any profile sites used in backlinking - there is almost no other situation where a profile is as locked off from the rest of the site as it is in Google. Its the exception not the rule.

[dburk]

Hi Mike,

Let me be clear, What I said applies to all domains, not just Google.

While most profile pages are linked to from public pages, it is not uncommon for profile pages to not be linked to from any public page, in fact there are many websites that restrict access to profile page to logged-in members. Google does not lockout their profile pages, there is simply no public internal links, save a handful of examples.

If a page links to your profile page then any PR value that page possess will pass to that page. The farther your profile page is away from a page with PR the less PR your profile page will receive and the less power it will have as a backlink, regardless of the homepage PR.

Your assertions seem to be true if you consider PR and domain authority to be one and the same. If you treat them as separate items, then only PR carries any noticeable weight, at least from my experience. It seems to me that you could drop any reference to domain authority and simply say PR and be just as accurate.

I referred to the Google profile since it was a PR 10 and a link that anyone can easily get. Since it didn't have any public internal links it was an excellent example to test domain authority as a separate influence from PR.