Can You Get A Low Adwords Quality Score For Not Bidding High Enough?

[StevenSaliba]

What do you Warriors Think?

[tryinhere]

Originally Posted by StevenSaliba

What do you Warriors Think?

> no , if that was true that would mean if you ran keys at min price due to low comp they would all fall over, and that does not happen. I have some keys as low as .01c cpc and running at Q 10

[claytons]

Quality score is not impacted by your bid at all.

However..two areas where it has some pretty serious "relationship" to the bid are:

1. The higher your bid...the higher the potential position you may achieve. The higher your position (in general now)...the higher your CTR. CTR is the #1 factor in determining your QS.

2. A higher QS means you'll be able to bid less..while still maintaining your position. More specifically, if you have a much higher QS than the guy bidding against you...you can bid much less and still "beat" the guy bidding higher...giving you a better position.

[StevenSaliba]

Adwords has been fluctuating my quality scores. I start with a 7, and then it goes down to a 6,5 even a 4. Is this normal?

[claytons]

@StevenSaliba

absolutely...as it's usually because your CTR (click through rate) is going up and down. CTR is the single biggest component of Quality Score

[StevenSaliba]

I also want to mention that my campaign has .63% CTR. Maybe Google doesn't think that is adequate?

[claytons]

@StevenSaliba - that CTR, unfortunately is very poor (for non content network anyway)

Google recently published their "average" CTR...it was 2% (can't find where I saw that...but it was last week I think)..also not quite sure how they arrived at that number

[StevenSaliba]

Thx for the help claytons. Wow 2%CTR is average! I think 1% is good. My ad was positioned on spots 6-12. I did not bid high enough. This is a lesson though. If you ad is not being seen near the top, then don't expect to get any clicks!

[James Ross]

Originally Posted by StevenSaliba

Thx for the help claytons. Wow 2%CTR is average! I think 1% is good. My ad was positioned on spots 6-12. I did not bid high enough. This is a lesson though. If you ad is not being seen near the top, then don't expect to get any clicks!

Exactly, that's why I like to be in the top positions on cheaper words. This way you at least get some conversions and can build your way up to the expensive words.

[Lucid]

The answer to the original question is no. Your bid does not affect your QS.

As mentioned, CTR is the main determining factor of QS. As your CTR fluctuates, so can your QS, and this can be especially more obvious in a new campaign as the system gets data and stabilizes.

Whatever CTR is average across all advertisers is irrelevant. Interesting but irrelevant. What you have to look at is your QS. It is actually a number which compares historically how well you are doing against others using the keyword. You can have a good QS of 7 with a CTR of 1% and you can have the same QS with a 10% CTR. It's all relative.

QS by the way is calculated only for their search network. Search partner data is not used and neither is content network data.

[ben565]

i usually bid high first to establish a high ctr,i aim for at least 5%-10%ctr,ad pos 1-3,do this for at least 4-5 days and then you will have established a great qs,then lower your bids until your profitable.

[Lucid]

Originally Posted by ben565

i usually bid high first to establish a high ctr,i aim for at least 5%-10%ctr,ad pos 1-3,do this for at least 4-5 days and then you will have established a great qs,then lower your bids until your profitable.

This is the wrong approach. You don't establish a great QS with higher bids. You do so with great ads. You are putting the cart before the horse. You have to establish a great QS first.

[claytons]

Gotta disagree with you Lucid...it's perfectly reasonable strategy that MANY follow...because it puts you higher in the ad position which almost always increases your CTR...and CTR is the single biggest component of QS...by miles.

[John Hocking]

Low bid price is a bonus of high quality score. The better the quality score the lower your minimum bid can be.

To improve your quality score, make sure that your ad title, ad body, keyword phrase and landing page an in alignment.

The best way I have found is do one keyword phrase per ad group.
Try to get the keyword into the ad title and/or ad body,

The bonus here is that Google will highlight the matches in the ad and this will help your CTR.

Optimize your landing page for this one keyword phrase.

I know this is more work but I will help your quality scores.

[Lucid]

Originally Posted by claytons

Gotta disagree with you Lucid...it's perfectly reasonable strategy that MANY follow...because it puts you higher in the ad position which almost always increases your CTR...and CTR is the single biggest component of QS...by miles.

Yes, CTR is the single biggest component of QS, about two thirds in fact. But you're forgetting one thing: QS is calculated by position. Sure your CTR normally will be higher in a higher position, comparatively speaking. But competitors with better ads at that position will get a higher QS.

Think about it. If what you say is true, then reducing your bid will get you lower position, your CTR will be lower and so will your QS. It doesn't happen that way. You can get any QS at any position. I can show you QS of 10 in 11th position. That's because my ad is superior than competitors at that position. It will likely be a QS at higher positions. The reverse is also true: an ad with QS of 5 in 10th position will have a QS of 5 in first. So create ads that get good QS first, preferably ten. Then if you want higher positions increase your bid to get there.

[claytons]

@lucid - I have never seen anything .. and there's a VERY detailed discussion of this from Google...that takes position into account with CTR when calculating QS.

I invite you to show us your source for this information.

Here's my reference -

YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.

Straight from the man himself, Hal Varian...the guy that invented this whole process. No where in that video does he ever mention CTR being "normalized" for position in the way you're suggesting.

What I've always understood...and I don't have a direct source for this...but have certainly seen it..is that Adwords will "try" out ads in various positions (independent of the auction) to make sure that CTR is statistically normalized. But again, I have no direct source for that.

I'm not saying it's not possible...I just need to see it from some authority source before I believe it...and if it's just your informed opinion..of course that's meaningful too (I respect your opinion!)...I'd just like it to be stated that way.

[Jag82]

Originally Posted by claytons

Gotta disagree with you Lucid...it's perfectly reasonable strategy that MANY follow...because it puts you higher in the ad position which almost always increases your CTR...and CTR is the single biggest component of QS...by miles.

Hi Clayton,

Lucid is right. Your bid price does NOT affect your
quality score at all. They are independent of each other.

Let me explain:

You are right that CTR is indeed the
dominant factor behind quality score.

No doubt about that.

But Google recognizes that ads in higher ranking tend
to get higher CTR than ads in lower rank.

In order to calculate a fair and precise quality score,
the quality score is normalized so as to remove
the influence of ad position on the CTR.

In this way, ads can compete fairly for position
based on quality and bid, where advertisers are
rewarded with better ad positions when they
deliver high quality ads to searchers.

Originally Posted by claytons

Gotta disagree with you Lucid...it's perfectly reasonable strategy that MANY follow...

I actually use to think that way.

And it's also true many people follow this "strategy".

But as mentioned, due to the reason above,
this "strategy" is actually a false one.

In fact, when I first found out about this, I was
kinda taken aback. Because I always thought that
high ad position => high CTR => high QS.

But alas - it's not true.


If you really want high QS,
then ensure the following:

- Give highly relevant ads (e.g. keywords in title)
- Give compelling ads (e.g. state benefit etc)
- Relevance between keyword-ad-landing page
- High quality landing page

Google only cares about one thing -
that is offering the highest quality
experience to the user.

It doesn't matter if an advertiser can throw
in money to bid the highest. If his ad isn't
relevant, his quality score is going to be bad.


Here's further proof:

Go to Google Adwords official blog where
they talk about ad quality and how they
measure quality score:

=> Inside AdWords: Improvements to Ads Quality

If you need further confirmation, you can
contact your Google Adwords support, and they
will tell you the same thing too.

Hope this clears things up.

Cheers,
Jag

[claytons]

Interesting...it says this:

"In the coming days, we'll update the portion of the Quality Score algorithm that accounts for ad position. This will result in more accurate Quality Scores, ensure that ads compete fairly for position based on their quality and bid, and enable Google to show the most relevant ads to searchers by rewarding high-quality advertisers with better ad positions."

They don't say how though..that could make a big difference...

Whole thing is kind of weird really...as ... CTR is a huge part of ad rank...and ad rank is a huge part of position...but if position is going to be "normalized"...it kind of makes my hair hurt...chicken and egg kind of thing...

[Lucid]

> They don't say how though..that could make a big difference...

Maybe but Google won't ever divulge exactly how they do things. They are always tweaking the algorithm anyway, I'm surprised they made this public, over a year ago I might add. Many ways they can tweak calculations.

> but if position is going to be "normalized"...it kind of makes my hair hurt...chicken and egg kind of thing...

It's simple. Normalize is simply a math term meaning to equalize everything. In this case, it simply means to do the QS calculation for each position which makes perfect sense.

The video is good and the only place I know where Google shows the price calculation formula. It also is meant to show how QS is used, not how it is calculated so no reason to mention normalizing by position.

Anyway, don't let it hurt your hair. All you have to remember is try to improve your ads for better QS.

[Jag82]

Originally Posted by claytons

Whole thing is kind of weird really...as ... CTR is a huge part of ad rank...and ad rank is a huge part of position...but if position is going to be "normalized"...it kind of makes my hair hurt...chicken and egg kind of thing...

Hi Claytons,

It's not really a chicken and egg thing.
It's pretty clear cut.

Google's principal concern is that you
give high quality and relevant ad.

At Google Adwords page I just shown you,
it says this:

To calculate the most accurate Quality Scores,
it's important that the influence of ad position on CTR be taken into account and removed from the Quality Score.

In fact, this sentence can be found right
above the Google quote you gave.

You can be be in higher position as
compared to your competitors who
are bidding higher than you because
you have a better quality score.

CTR IS and undeniable the biggest
component factor affecting quality score.

But it's not influenced by bid position.




Let me give you an equation to
make this clearer:

Ad rank = Bid x Quality Score

This is the general equation given
on Google Adwords help page.

And QS is affected (generally) by:

• CTR
• Relevancy
• Landing page quality

If you want to rank higher, bid high.
Or get the quality score high.

Smart marketers work on their
QS so they don't have to pay
unnecessarily high fees TO Google.

And that's what Google wants too.
Because if you see ROI, you will
stay with Google in the long term
and they will benefit too.

Again, if you want to be absolutely sure,
just do a check with Google Adwords support,
and they will tell you ad position has no
influence on quality score.

Focus on getting more persuasive ads,
tighter and more relevant keywords,
ad groups to landing page, and higher
quality and relevant landing page.

Cheers,
Jag

[StevenSaliba]

Everyone thank you for all of the information. But for some reason I am still getting 4,5,6 quality scores. My landing page has the keyword phrase in the title tag, meta tags, and on the page itself. It also gets over a 1% CTR. But my landing page has abuch of &nbsp html coding. Could that be corrupting my quality score?

[Lucid]

> Could that be corrupting my quality score?

Unlikely. Improve your ads. Use relevant keywords.

[clarky79]

The people above who say the bid doesn't matter, fail to appreciate that Google's position by normalisation isn't 100% accurate... certainly in my experience, which is a lot.

What you would expect, is that regardless of what you bid, the CTR has to be above a certain % for that position in order to keep your Quality Score or improve it. However, this doesn't always seem to be the case and my feelings on this is because Google don't have it as accurate as most people think.

The best advice I can give is this: If you can't afford to bid on a keyword to be in the top few positions, then leave that keyword for now and maybe come back to it another time. If you can afford it, then bid high and get a high position - in a few days/weeks time (depending on the impressions and clicks the keyword receives), drop the CPC around 10% each time, but nothing major. If the keyword is converting and your conversion cost/ROI is something you're happy with, then don't alter the bid at all... just leave it and improve the ads, via split testing.

So if you were bidding 0.25 and the keyword was proving to be too expensive, I'd drop the CPC to something like 0.23 and then leave it again for a few days. Also make sure you're split testing - if you aren't, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

[Lucid]

Originally Posted by clarky79

The people above who say the bid doesn't matter, fail to appreciate that Google's position by normalisation isn't 100% accurate... certainly in my experience, which is a lot.

I have no idea how you would be able to determine or prove this.

Originally Posted by clarky79

What you would expect, is that regardless of what you bid, the CTR has to be above a certain % for that position in order to keep your Quality Score or improve it.

True. Note that this percentage is determined by all others using this keyword, now or in the past. It's not a static CTR which is what you make it sound like. It's a moving target since everyone's CTR changes for each search. Maybe that's why you think it's not accurate.

You may also be assuming that QS is a whole number because it is shown as such, between 1 and 10. The reality is that this is a rounded number. Google may calculate a QS as 6.514287 but rounds it off to 7. In this case, being on the edge of the round off point, you may notice a change of QS between 6 and 7.

As the QS is very likely a simple standard deviation calculation - pure math - there's no way it cannot be inaccurate.

My best advice is to always try to improve the CTR of your ads. Doesn't matter what you bid. If CTR improves, your QS improves. This naturally improves your positioning at the same bid and your CPC can go down. If you want better position, you can increase your bid. Having a better QS means you won't have to increase it as much and your CPC won't be as high.

[clarky79]

Aye I know all that Lucid.

I don't think you understood what I was saying, which may or may not be down to me not explaining myself correctly.

It sounds to me like you're taking CTR too much to heart which is what a lot of Adwords beginners do, admittedly.

CTR means naff all it's the ROI/Conversion data that's important.

[firstdandy]

I think the bidding value is not a single component to determine your adwords quality score. Google have their own standard to determine that.

[mcain]

Every keyword that has a low click through rate will have a lowered quality score and an accompanying increased min bid. An ad appearing on page 4 due to low bidding or poorly written ad copy, even at position 1 can produce a low ctr. It's said a keyword's ctr history sticks with it for the duration of the adwords account.

Some advise to bid higher during the initial honeymoon trial impressions, then lower the bid after establishing a click through track record.