Off-page SEO Google Penalties

[Plish]

Does this even exist?

Some 'gurus' believe that aggressive link building and bot submission tactics can get your site DE-INDEXED from Google. Now I'm no genius but if this were true, wouldn't every competitor just dump links on a site and get them de-indexed?

I've had this argument with a very close friend of mine for a couple of years now and neither of us have any proof. He is adamant that aggressive link building tactics will drop your rankings. I'm more of the school of thought that Google will not punish off-page SEO tactics however they will not give credit for such tactics, therefore leaving you with 0 gain.

Does anyone feel they have a really good idea about this? Or better yet, evidence/case studies??

[Andyhenry]

You won't get a straight answer here either.

Most people will tell you no - but they're just guessing and using logic like "your competitors could hurt you if it was true".

So don't hold your breath.

[ContentArticleWriter]

I agree with Andy. My husband leads and SEO group and he always inclines to say the second thing you mentioned, that you simply do not get recognized for it. Yet, he also does say that people who do the aggressive link building by using Black hat techniques (which I know you did not mention directly but some people can associate bots with black hat) will eventually see it backfiring.

So, I think you will get an assortment of opinions based on individual perceptions and experiences.

[grumpyb]

I am an aggressive link builder and these days if I start a new site I pile on as many links as I can as fast as I can.
I have seen one or 2 of my sites go backwards for a while and some people call that the sandbox effect.
However at the end of the day I have several sites showing first page SERP and I beleive that this does not happen without lots of links.
The only exception to this that I have experinced is when the url has the main search term in it for example www. best widgets .com will always have an advantage in a search for widgets I have no 1 page 1 SERP with a few links only using this technique.

[mikeevee]

Agree with all the above. No-one knows. The most likely is that they will pay scant regard to the extra links. After all they will carry almost zero linkjuice.

Google is very very adept at knowing the marketing tactics people follows, and will continue to make judgements about which ones are acceptable and which ones are excessive. They are not afraid to block big sites, as was shown by BMW's main site being de-indexed a few years ago.

[Black Hat Cat]

I recommend folks google "traffic power" if you believe the actions of a third party can't affect your site. If I had hired that company to link to a competitor, that competitor would have likely been booted out of the index.

[JoshBrown]

All I can give is my personal experience. Been doing this since 2001, and can tell you--without a doubt--that leaving a footprint of too many IBLS in a certain time frame will cause a reduction in SERPs.

Now, this does NOT include rotating URL ads. Those work fantastic for getting tons of IBLS (thousands) each month with total disregard for a spam foot print.

With that in mind, a static IBL cannot be used the same way. I'd stick to a conservative number. Mine? 20 static IBLS (including blog posts, mind you) per week, but consistently added each week.

Good Luck,
Josh

[jasonl70]

google has repeatedly said that you can not be penalized for the actions of others. Yet Matt Cutt's says that some of traffic powers customers did in fact get de-indexed. I guess the question is this: was it on page or off page tactics that got them deindexed? I don't know, and Matt does not elaborate.

[Fernando Veloso]

Aggressive backlinking is NOT the same as BH.

Don't mix white hat resources that can be put to work aggressively, with BH techniques.

No one can tell you for sure BUT logic tells us this:

- OUTSIDE techniques (backlinks) can't hurt your rankings.

That's logic.

Otherwise big players with big bucks would crush competition.

But to say this is guessing... wow. I call it logic.

[JoshBrown]

Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso

Aggressive backlinking is NOT the same as BH.

Don't mix white hat resources that can be put to work aggressively, with BH techniques.

No one can tell you for sure BUT logic tells us this:

- OUTSIDE techniques (backlinks) can't hurt your rankings.

That's logic.

Otherwise big players with big bucks would crush competition.

But to say this is guessing... wow. I call it logic.

Hi Fernando,

I respectfully disagree. In my experience, there are a few dirty tactics that work every now and then from an off-site POV that can hurt a site. Massive IBL bombs being one of them. Try it out and see. :-)

Best,
Josh

[Fernando Veloso]

Originally Posted by JoshBrown

Hi Fernando,

I respectfully disagree. In my experience, there are a few dirty tactics that work every now and then from an off-site POV that can hurt a site. Massive IBL bombs being one of them. Try it out and see. :-)

Best,
Josh

Josh,

I've seen this idea here and there multiple times.

Everytime it happens, I launch the same challenge: de-index my site, drop my rankings:

fernandoveloso dot com

As of now, in Google Portugal, top page 2 for keyword "ganhar dinheiro na internet" (make money online):

Google

I don't mind you use my site for a test. Really.

At least I'll have something "physical" to prove it can be done. Cause frankly, many people say it's possible, but no one did a real test to prove it.

[Fernando Veloso]

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

I recommend folks google "traffic power" if you believe the actions of a third party can't affect your site. If I had hired that company to link to a competitor, that competitor would have likely been booted out of the index.

Thanks for the reference. Did a read on some sites and this is what I could understand from that "example":

They talk about alot of stuff but I couldn't see a UNIQUE reference to backlinking.

IF people used frames-redirects-shady ONSITE techniques, thats their problem. But we're discussing backlinks, not onpage shady techniques.

Well, not me.

I want to keep this discussion alive cause IF it can be proved BACKLINKS can hurt your sites, I want to know asap.

Fernando

[JoshBrown]

Guess I better put up or shut up, eh? :-)

[Shinxware]

If backlinking could really hurt rankings, I will be blasting the competitors with xrumer all day long LOL

[Fernando Veloso]

Originally Posted by JoshBrown

Guess I better put up or shut up, eh? :-)

lol

I just want to discover IF it's really possible. And for that WE need a test.

[Jacob Martus]

I believe that way too many backlinks can only hurt a brand new site. No way it would work on blasting your competitors, but if you've got a 1 week old site with no decent backlinks, I do believe you can do damage.

[__internet__]

It's not getting a lot of links that hurts your site. It's getting a lot of the same anchor text links. If you're trying to rank for "make money" and you get every single link with the word "make money", it's going to get filtered. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. Try it with a keyword that has very little competition, and the exact same thing is going to happen. There's something in Google's algorithm that automatically determines whether the links seem natural. They don't even have to be natural. You can create them yourself, but you need to make it look natural. Getting the same keyword link thousands of times is going to trip a filter.

People like saying how "There's no way I can get a penalty for building thousands of links. My competitor could just do it to me". Well maybe your competitors aren't smart. Because if you throw thousands of the same anchor text keyword links at a site, it's getting filtered.

[mikeevee]

Originally Posted by __internet__

It's not getting a lot of links that hurts your site. It's getting a lot of the same anchor text links. If you're trying to rank for "make money" and you get every single link with the word "make money", it's going to get filtered. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. Try it with a keyword that has very little competition, and the exact same thing is going to happen. There's something in Google's algorithm that automatically determines whether the links seem natural. They don't even have to be natural. You can create them yourself, but you need to make it look natural. Getting the same keyword link thousands of times is going to trip a filter.

People like saying how "There's no way I can get a penalty for building thousands of links. My competitor could just do it to me". Well maybe your competitors aren't smart. Because if you throw thousands of the same anchor text keyword links at a site, it's getting filtered.

In that case signature links in forums would raise a big red flag with Google?

[Jacob Martus]

Originally Posted by __internet__

It's not getting a lot of links that hurts your site. It's getting a lot of the same anchor text links. If you're trying to rank for "make money" and you get every single link with the word "make money", it's going to get filtered. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. Try it with a keyword that has very little competition, and the exact same thing is going to happen. There's something in Google's algorithm that automatically determines whether the links seem natural. They don't even have to be natural. You can create them yourself, but you need to make it look natural. Getting the same keyword link thousands of times is going to trip a filter.

People like saying how "There's no way I can get a penalty for building thousands of links. My competitor could just do it to me". Well maybe your competitors aren't smart. Because if you throw thousands of the same anchor text keyword links at a site, it's getting filtered.

Forum signatures prove that and a bunch of other myths wrong.

[__internet__]

Originally Posted by mikeevee

In that case signature links in forums would raise a big red flag with Google?

No. Signature links wouldn't raise a red flag. That's similar to getting an anchor text link on a blogroll for a website. It may end up being indexed on thousands of different pages for that site.

Since all the links are coming from the same IPs, Google doesn't care about it. The links are devalued anyway. It's when you're getting thousands of anchored text links in a short span from a variety of different IPs. That's when they care. Your sites are going to get filtered for certain keywords.

Honestly, I don't care if people don't believe what I say. There's plenty of evidence to prove that I'm right. There are certain people that don't really understand what I say on this forum. You can't make someone understand the truth when they have never experienced it themselves.

Here's just one site describing what actually happens. Have fun throwing all your anchor text links at your pages. Some people can never accept reality.

Google.com only - Penalty/filter/sandbox?

[Clyde]

Do it to new sites = sandbox.

Do it to old established sites with quality high PR backlinks = nothing/improved ranking.

You can get out of the sandbox by building high quality links to your site to pass "trust rank" and it may take anywhere between 1-3 months.

Fact.

[DavidKauzlaric]

The best way is to make sure that everything is relevant and manually build backlinks. Nothing beats manual and relevant! That is the key to ranking #1.

[digitalstar]

So far i observed that blackhat hat aggressive methods are not giving any results while backlinks that are built manually are giving best results. It's always better to increase rate of creation of backlinks on regular basis and gain good results.

[actionplanbiz]

Can competitors harm ranking? - Webmaster Tools Help

[Plish]

Originally Posted by actionplanbiz

Can competitors harm ranking? - Webmaster Tools Help

I believe this calls for

/thread

[michaelvk]

Google is very very adept at knowing the marketing tactics people follows, and will continue to make judgements about which ones are acceptable and which ones are excessive. They are not afraid to block big sites, as was shown by BMW's main site being de-indexed a few years ago.

thanks,
micheal

[Fernando Veloso]

Originally Posted by __internet__

It's when you're getting thousands of anchored text links in a short span from a variety of different IPs. That's when they care. Your sites are going to get filtered for certain keywords.

So, I launch a groundbreaking APP, thousands of people link to my NEW site from different IP's and I get screwed?



Dude, I'm not going to launch that killer app or that superb website!!!! No No No!!!

Honestly, I don't care if people don't believe what I say. There's plenty of evidence to prove that I'm right.

..............

[__internet__]

Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso

So, I launch a groundbreaking APP, thousands of people link to my NEW site from different IP's and I get screwed?



Dude, I'm not going to launch that killer app or that superb website!!!! No No No!!!



..............

Yeah. You should be crying about it. You seem to be leaving out "all links are the same anchor text factor". It's not the links you need to worry about anyway. When you launch your ground breaking piece of junk that doesn't become ground breaking, then you're not going to have to worry about the filter at all.

[Fernando Veloso]

Originally Posted by __internet__

It's when you're getting thousands of anchored text links in a short span from a variety of different IPs. That's when they care.

Originally Posted by __internet__

It's not the links you need to worry about.

First we get in trouble with links. Now, we don't need to worry them.

Care to explain?

[Bertil Jenner]

Originally Posted by Plish

I believe this calls for

/thread

Note that the link to Google says "There's almost nothing a competitor can do to harm..."

But saying so, I do not think bot submission or aggressive link building per se will get you de-indexed as I have tried it (1000 links per day) for a few weeks and my test sites were never penalized.

[__internet__]

Originally Posted by Fernando Veloso

First we get in trouble with links. Now, we don't need to worry them.

Care to explain?

If you read the thread properly, then you'd understand what I wrote already. If you looked at the link I posted, you'd understand as well. I don't have to explain the same thing over and over. I never said links get you in trouble. I said that getting a lot of the same anchor text links in a short span of time aiming for certain keywords gets you filtered for those keywords.

[Fernando Veloso]

Originally Posted by __internet__

If you read the thread properly, then you'd understand what I wrote already. If you looked at the link I posted, you'd understand as well. I don't have to explain the same thing over and over. I never said links get you in trouble. I said that getting a lot of the same anchor text links in a short span of time aiming for certain keywords gets you filtered for those keywords.

I DID read the thread.

And it's impossible to understand what you're saying cause you said one thing and the exact opposite of it.

It's quoted 3 posts above.

This is what I ask, and I bet other warriors want it too (this is how we get to know each other and this is how we reach success - sharing methods, testing them, and dropping the crap):

- Please explain us the tests you made, the results, etc.

Cause if you can prove "many" Backlinks with same anchor text can hurt a website OR "filter some keywords", then you're going to be the first guy in history to prove it.

Just some pertinent questions:

How "many" is too many?
Who decided How "many" is too many?
Where is the source of ^^ this information?
What is "get filtered for these keywords"?

Don't take me wrong here. I just want to bring relevant information alive. And I am tired of all this "backlinks get you penalized" history.

If they do, share proofs so we can show them to Google so they can change it asap, otherwise it's a war.

If they don't, let's stop this madness every week.

Thanks!!

[mikeevee]

Well said Fernando.

I am very interested. Can excessive inbound links really harm? Can joining a link farm harm you?

[24kWing]

I don't think there is a penalty for off-paage SEO, UNLESS you are using (abusing) a Bot to perform these task. Moderation is the key, but ultimately there is no penalty.

Just my 2 cents...... 24kWing

[sickboy]

If your website 2-3 weeks old - you can kill him by powerfull linkbuilding. For example - Xrumer can. 200.000 bad backlinks from porno sites and your little website goes to ban.

[arenasocial]

Well, spamming to much with same content can benefit you only for little time, but as soon as you are caught, your rankings will drastically get lower. In my opinion, content is still a king.