Client wants keyword used 29 times in 800 word article?

[Sebastion]

I'm just learning this keyword thing.

The client loved my copy. But wants me to insert, "Tips on getting pregnant" 29 times into the copy.

Do they need the words seperated? Or the whole phrase? The piece is only 800 words. saying, "Tips on getting pregnant" 29 times is ridiculous.

[John Trader]

Keyword stuffing used to be the rage years ago; perhaps that's where your client heard that this is a good idea. It's no longer a good idea; it can seriously hose your search ranking, or worse, get the site banned if Google thinks that's all the site is about is spamming the search engine.

Matt Cutts from Google was pounding the table about this way back in 2007 - SEO tip: Avoid keyword stuffing

For your client's sake, you need to direct him to some of the discussions on keyword stuffing and make him understand reality. Lol

[Ken_Caudill]

Originally Posted by Sebastion

I'm just learning this keyword thing.

The client loved my copy. But wants me to insert, "Tips on getting pregnant" 29 times into the copy.

Do they need the words seperated? Or the whole phrase? The piece is only 800 words. saying, "Tips on getting pregnant" 29 times is ridiculous.

Do it. Your client deserves it. Then kick him to the curb. Life's too short to work for idiots.

[Sebastion]

Interesting. So would reality be that he start a blog and pump out about thirty high quality, relevant blog posts?

[laurencewins]

I agree. Keyword stuffing makes articles look so fake that people soon tune out and don't ever bother to finish reading them because they are so blatant in their over use of the keywords that it makes the writer or advertiser look desperate or stupid..or both.

[John Trader]

Originally Posted by Sebastion

Interesting. So would reality be that he start a blog and pump out about thirty high quality, relevant blog posts?

That wouldn't be a bad solution. But my "reality" comment had to do with the penalties he will likely face if he continues down that road.

[Sebastion]

Now here's another thing. I quoted him to write an article for $100. Now he wants me to insert 29 lines of nonsense. That wasn't in the quote. Do I charge him more for this? Or advise him against it? Or just do it and let him deal with it?

[John Trader]

Originally Posted by Sebastion

Now here's another thing. I quoted him to write an article for $100. Now he wants me to insert 29 lines of nonsense. That wasn't in the quote. Do I charge him more for this? Or advise him against it? Or just do it and let him deal with it?

That's a healthy rate for an article, BTW - good job. You have an expertise as an SEO content writer that he's paying you for; it's more of an obligation to tell him the pitfalls of what he's directing you to do and if he insists, then at least you have warned him.

[Kay King]

No, I would not add on more money for such an article. I'd ask him why he thinks it's a good idea to change a good article into a keyword stuffed one.

I'd explain the pitfalls and if he insists I'd add the keywords but tell him I'm not going to guarantee any results or even indexing of such an article. I also wouldn't be interested in writing for him again.

It sounds like he has gotten some bad advice and perhaps you can counteract that. There's no sense in paying the fee for a good writer and then ruining the work by stuffing keyword phrases that will make it read like amateur hour.

In the end he's the buyer and you give him what he wants. I wouldn't argue or be confrontational but I'd certainly help him understand the issue and the potential problem.

kay

[AmandaT]

Obviously putting the keyword in a few times is a good idea but that is just way overkill. Perhaps explain that to him and hope he understands. If anything you could try and include the main keyword a few times and some sub-keywords.

[Mitt Ray]

Your copy might be good now, but do you think stuffing it with such a long phrase 29 times will make it better. Maybe it might raise its search engine ranking a bit, but when a reader comes across it they will not enjoy reading it. Using that phrase 29 times will definitely destroy the flow of your copy.

The best thing to do is to keep your keyword percentage between 4 and 7%.

Just let your client know about this problem. Tell him all about the problems associated, but if he still wants you to go ahead and to it, then you have to go ahead and do it. As your client is your boss and you need to keep your client happy.

[yukon]

Originally Posted by Sebastion

I'm just learning this keyword thing.

The client loved my copy. But wants me to insert, "Tips on getting pregnant" 29 times into the copy.

Do they need the words seperated? Or the whole phrase? The piece is only 800 words. saying, "Tips on getting pregnant" 29 times is ridiculous.

I would setup the page like wikipedia does, with internal on-page jump-links.

Like already said, keyword stuffing isn't what it used to be a few years ago.

[Ephrils]

Is that even possible? The article would make no sense. It'd almost read like it's talking to itself in 3rd person.

I agree with the poster who said to do it then work for someone else. That's a crazy request from someone who doesn't really understand how keywording in articles is supposed to work.

[dadamson]

I go for a keyword density of between 1%-4% each time and it works for me. Any more and any less than that simply doesn't produce great results for the targeted KW.

[iAmNameLess]

You guys realizing that isn't really keyword stuffing. 800 words.... 1% is 8 times, 3% is 24times..... dude is exactly at 3.5% keyword density. I think that would be pretty good, don't you?

As far as keyword density goes he is perfect, but I don't believe keyword density even plays more than a 1% role anyway.

Give the client what he wants, obviously he is wanting something for the search engines, not humans. Not your fault. And I will admit, when I do some link pushing, I write for the search engines on my 2nd-3rd tiers.

[bhuff85]

Originally Posted by iAmNameLess

You guys realizing that isn't really keyword stuffing. 800 words.... 1% is 8 times, 3% is 24times..... dude is exactly at 3.5% keyword density. I think that would be pretty good, don't you?

As far as keyword density goes he is perfect, but I don't believe keyword density even plays more than a 1% role anyway.

Give the client what he wants, obviously he is wanting something for the search engines, not humans. Not your fault. And I will admit, when I do some link pushing, I write for the search engines on my 2nd-3rd tiers.

I was actually going to say the same. Good kw density is anywhere from 2 to 4 percent. I think the toughest issue here is to go back and rewrite the article (which can be a pain). Luckily, this kw phrase isn't too tough, so you won't have to "force" it throughout the article.

If this phrase was originally agreed upon to be in the article at a density around 3 percent, I'd just rewrite it. If its something additional that was not agreed on, if they could be a long term client, I'd do it and mention that you'll only do it this time and that anything similar in the future would require an additional charge.

[adamv]

Originally Posted by iAmNameLess

You guys realizing that isn't really keyword stuffing. 800 words.... 1% is 8 times, 3% is 24times..... dude is exactly at 3.5% keyword density. I think that would be pretty good, don't you?

As far as keyword density goes he is perfect, but I don't believe keyword density even plays more than a 1% role anyway.

Give the client what he wants, obviously he is wanting something for the search engines, not humans. Not your fault. And I will admit, when I do some link pushing, I write for the search engines on my 2nd-3rd tiers.

It's actually quite a bit more than 3.5% when you consider the fact that the keyword phrase is 4 words and not just a single word. I've had clients like this in the past and talked one person out of it because the phrase would have had to have been in every other sentence in the article and it would have sounded ridiculous.

[Russell Barnstein]

First, some people don't quite understand how keyword density should (ideally) be calculated. If you simply take 800 words and figure out what 3% of that is, then you'll only know what percentage ONE WORD is of the 800. This keyword is 4 words long. You do the math.

Secondly, don't be afraid to educate your customer. Yes, it's annoying when clients think they know something but really don't. And yes, it would be fun to shove their ignorance back in their face and be done with them. But personally, I would never engage in such a "business" practice. Your success is dependent upon that of your clients. Think about that.

We've had a number of clients who were complete idiots, and you know what that gave us a chance to do? SELL! They're still our clients today; they're successful, we've educated them, made them into better clients and have made a KILLING on them.

Treating clients as anything but an opportunity to create success is counterintuitive and counterproductive, in my mind.

But don't forget what other posters have said: he might just be putting out crap for the search engines, and he might know damn well what he's doing. This kind of situation is why we always seek to determine what the client intends to do with our content before we begin work.

[iAmNameLess]

Originally Posted by Russell Barnstein

First, some people don't quite understand how keyword density should (ideally) be calculated. If you simply take 800 words and figure out what 3% of that is, then you'll only know what percentage ONE WORD is of the 800. This keyword is 4 words long. You do the math.

So you're suggesting that since it is 4 words long, that is is 14% keyword density? Don't think so. "On" isn't even going to be included in that, and it still doesn't change the keyword density. It is not spam, and you won't get penalized for that.

Seriously though, since when did keyword density even matter anymore? This is 2011, not 2003.

[jeffrey73]

That's not a high keyword density, but that really doesn't matter. I can almost guarantee with that phrase stuffed in there the article will most likely come out sounding stupid.

You've gotta write for the readers instead of the search engines. Nowadays, the search engines actually prefer it!

[jeffrey73]

By separating the words, you are going more in a BROAD spectrum. To effectively target your phrase, you want to make sure it is done in the EXACT format, and the anchor links are structured that way as well.

A keyword is not necessarily just 1 word, it can be more, but is still recognized as a "keyword". For instance, "tips on getting pregnant" would be known as a "long-tail keyword".

Just my .02 cents..

Originally Posted by Sebastion

Do they need the words seperated? Or the whole phrase? The piece is only 800 words. saying, "Tips on getting pregnant" 29 times is ridiculous.

[n_touch]

Originally Posted by Russell Barnstein

First, some people don't quite understand how keyword density should (ideally) be calculated. If you simply take 800 words and figure out what 3% of that is, then you'll only know what percentage ONE WORD is of the 800. This keyword is 4 words long. You do the math.

Secondly, don't be afraid to educate your customer. Yes, it's annoying when clients think they know something but really don't. And yes, it would be fun to shove their ignorance back in their face and be done with them. But personally, I would never engage in such a "business" practice. Your success is dependent upon that of your clients. Think about that.

We've had a number of clients who were complete idiots, and you know what that gave us a chance to do? SELL! They're still our clients today; they're successful, we've educated them, made them into better clients and have made a KILLING on them.

Treating clients as anything but an opportunity to create success is counterintuitive and counterproductive, in my mind.

But don't forget what other posters have said: he might just be putting out crap for the search engines, and he might know damn well what he's doing. This kind of situation is why we always seek to determine what the client intends to do with our content before we begin work.

Well said. Anything you put out even if your client is the one that wanted it is a reflection on you and the way that you will do business. It will be hard to consider yourself reputable if you allow your clients to dictate the way that you do your job, and then have you do it incorrectly. Explain to them why you will not and should not do it and that it is within their best interest that you do not. That is your job, that is why they hired you.

[Russell Barnstein]

Originally Posted by iAmNameLess

So you're suggesting that since it is 4 words long, that is is 14% keyword density? Don't think so. "On" isn't even going to be included in that, and it still doesn't change the keyword density. It is not spam, and you won't get penalized for that.

Seriously though, since when did keyword density even matter anymore? This is 2011, not 2003.

14%? What kind of math are you doing?

I never said it was spam, I simply stated that calculating keywords based on a straight percentage of the total word count is not an ideal or accurate way to make that calculation. But if you ARE doing it that way, then EVERY word DOES count.

And if you think that keyword density doesn't matter you are wrong. Try stuffing your content at around 8-9% and tell me what happens to your on-page. Or better yet, try getting articles approved to (high quality) directories with keyword density above 4%. Not going to happen, and really confused why anyone would suggest that density doesn't matter.

[jeffrey73]

80 would be 10% of 800, right?

80/800 = .10

29 keywords x 4 = 116 keywords

116 / 800 = .145

So, roughly 14.5%

Originally Posted by Russell Barnstein

14%? What kind of math are you doing?

[iAmNameLess]

Originally Posted by Russell Barnstein

14%? What kind of math are you doing?

I never said it was spam, I simply stated that calculating keywords based on a straight percentage of the total word count is not an ideal or accurate way to make that calculation. But if you ARE doing it that way, then EVERY word DOES count.

And if you think that keyword density doesn't matter you are wrong. Try stuffing your content at around 8-9% and tell me what happens to your on-page. Or better yet, try getting articles approved to (high quality) directories with keyword density above 4%. Not going to happen, and really confused why anyone would suggest that density doesn't matter.

Weren't you the one saying it wouldn't be the entire word, but the phrase? That would be 14% density, what kind of math are you doing?

I don't know, maybe over 500 first page rankings for clients would be enough experience to tell what really matters and what doesn't. Keyword density plays such a small role in SEO that it just isn't a noticeable factor. Anyway, what the OP stated, it would be a 3.5% density. Not sure why you think that taking a percentage of the words in an article isn't accurate? Math is math and there is no way around that. For press releases you can usually get away with 5% because of all the other words on the page would lower it to around 3-3.5.

Either way, this shouldn't even be a debate. High quality article directories? Where? LOL. Whether you have 1% keyword density, or 4%... it doesn't make much difference honestly. You're right in a way it would be spammy, but who does that anymore? Keyword density just isn't an on page factor that HELPS you anymore... that was outdated LONG ago. The amount it could possibly help, is so miniscule that it would be pointless worrying about a perfect %.

[iAmNameLess]

Originally Posted by jeffrey73

80 would be 10% of 800, right?

80/800 = .10

29 keywords x 4 = 116 keywords

116 / 800 = .145

So, roughly 14.5%

Yep.. LOL.

[Craig McPherson]

Originally Posted by Sebastion

The client loved my copy. But wants me to insert, "Tips on getting pregnant" 29 times into the copy.

If I ordered a latte from you and asked for 11 sugars I would not expect you to question me about why I want so many sugars. I would expect a latte with 11 sugars though.

Give the customer exactly what he asked for

[FredJones]

For a 1-word or 2-word KW I would say yes. But for a four word KW? Oh my gosh, big no !!

[jeffrey73]

So you are telling them to possibly jeopardize their client's rankings, due to the client's lack of knowledge? Who is supposed to be the internet expert in this situation, the internet marketer or the client?

Originally Posted by Craig McPherson

If I ordered a latte from you and asked for 11 sugars I would not expect you to question me about why I want so many sugars. I would expect a latte with 11 sugars though.

Give the customer exactly what he asked for

[Kay King]

Amazing to see some post that this is not a keyword density problem.

Basically, the client is saying he wants the keyword phrase to appear in EVERY sentence of this article. Anyone who thinks that makes sense is simply not getting it.

When you pay $100 for an article (not as unusual as some think) you expect a readable article at that price. When every sentence contains the same 4 word phrase over and over...you ruin it.

Actually, in 2003 you saw a lot of keyword stuffing - today most people know not to do that. Unfortunately, this buyer doesn't.

kay

[brendan9971]

Originally Posted by Craig McPherson

If I ordered a latte from you and asked for 11 sugars I would not expect you to question me about why I want so many sugars. I would expect a latte with 11 sugars though.

Give the customer exactly what he asked for

Agreed. Especially since the client is paying an outrageous price ($100? seriously?), I would suggest giving them what they asked for, however letting them know your thoughts about keyword stuffing. If you can deliver the article as order AND educate the client a bit, great. If the client doesn't care about keyword densitiy, keyword stuffing, etc... that's really up to them. If you don't want to write the article as they ordered it, feel free to suggest that they find someone else to do their writing for them. I'm sure there are thousands of writers more than happy to do it for $100 for 800 words.

[jeffrey73]

Absolutely true and I agree the article should be readable. As far as the keyword density issue goes I guess it would depend where the article is going to be used.

If it's going to EzineArticles of course a 3-4% density would easily cause your article to be rejected. In fact, I've never had one approved much over 1%. If it's to post on their own site, then 4% is not going to get them any type of penalty by Google. Will it read terribly? Most likely yes. Will Google punish them for keyword stuffing? I'd say no.

Originally Posted by Kay King

Amazing to see some post that this is not a keyword density problem. When you pay $100 for an article (not as unusual as some think) you expect a readable article at that price. When every sentence contains the same 4 word phrase over and over...you ruin it.
kay

[Kay King]

By all means give the customer what he wants for his money - he's paying.

If I hire a professional and they know my instructions aren't a good idea - I'd hope they would at least raise a question about it. I might not listen but later if it fell apart, I'd remember they cautioned me.

Honestly, I can't imagine how you could insert that many phrases and sitll make sense - good luck with that.

kay

[iAmNameLess]

Originally Posted by Kay King

By all means give the customer what he wants for his money - he's paying.

If I hire a professional and they know my instructions aren't a good idea - I'd hope they would at least raise a question about it. I might not listen but later if it fell apart, I'd remember they cautioned me.

Honestly, I can't imagine how you could insert that many phrases and sitll make sense - good luck with that.

kay

I remember putting a 3 word phrase in a press release about 24 times... was around 750 words total..There is definitely a difference between writing for robots and writing for people. Some people don't write for people, they write for the search engines, and even though it is advised against, it is a useful strategy for SEO in some cases. Never to link to your main site or even have on your main site, but to use it as support to your links.

There are many ways of doing things...when I tell people keyword density really doesn't matter anymore... I'm not telling people to stuff their articles or website with keywords. Definitely not saying that!! When I say it doesn't matter, is when people seem to think that there is a magical percentage that is going to get you ranked. Keyword density is such a miniscule factor in the algorithm that it isn't even worth noting. I guess, I should say it is a miniscule factor in RANKING a site, but is more of a factor penalizing a site!

Will people like this article? no, definitely not. Will search engines? Yeah, I think so at least but I would never have it directly linking to my site, or even ON my sites.. Paying $100 for an article seems steep if the client isn't putting it on their site, so that is a dumb decision on their part. It is actually very typical for people to do this, but only on lower tiers.

[Kay King]

Good points - and the buyer may have his own plan that is different than what we might expect.

kay

[TimBock70]

You can do it, but the site will NOT rank well. Keyword stuffing is a very BAD idea. I would inform your client you only need the main KW once in the title & 1 or 2 other times within the body of the article. The key is to write naturally as well as add value so the reader learns something!

[addyj672]

You have to keep the keyword denesity as low as possible upto 3 to 4 %. Many article submission site only accept those article which have very low keyword density. Like goarticle accept those article which have very low keyword repetition.

[iAmNameLess]

Originally Posted by addyj672

You have to keep the keyword denesity as low as possible upto 3 to 4 %. Many article submission site only accept those article which have very low keyword density. Like goarticle accept those article which have very low keyword repetition.

Goarticles accept everything...

[trytolearnmore]

29 times? What is he trying to do, send a subliminal message?

[yukon]

Originally Posted by trytolearnmore

29 times? What is he trying to do, send a subliminal message?

Brainwash tactic.

[Sebastion]

Ok so the guy doesn't know what he's doing. I'll inform him.

What he paid me $100 for was a 250 word "Press Release," plus an 800 word, "Highly Persuasive Pre Sell page that will lead readers to the sales copy."

So I wrote a highly persuasive page and he loved it. Except he say's "The instructions with the ebook say to add these keywords 29 times."

And yeah he paid me about $30 an hour. I do good work.

[zoobie]

just explained to them it is not going to work，but if they insists just do what they told you....

[thecableguy]

JMO but 3.5% isn't unusually high, but for a longtail keyword it's going to sound "forced" and it will degrade the readability and sound funny. I think you should explain it to your customer and if they still insist give it to them, they're paying for it. What kinda works with one SEO plugin I use is to use them in sub-headlines, alt tag for images and anchor text links.

[zannix]

29 tips on getting pregnant? Whoever writes that article will be accused of sexual harrasment

[Kay King]

What he paid me $100 for was a 250 word "Press Release," plus an 800 word, "Highly Persuasive Pre Sell page that will lead readers to the sales copy."

So I wrote a highly persuasive page and he loved it. Except he say's "The instructions with the ebook say to add these keywords 29 times."

You should have said that in the first place. If this client is counting on your to produce persuasive copy you need to do some persuading.

A pre sell page that has the same 4 word phrase in every sentence is not likely to lead readers anywhere that counts. I'd be curious to know what ebook he is reading - how old it is - and who wrote it. Is he sure it says "29 times" and not 2-9 times?????

[Sebastion]

Pregnancy Miracle

[MrWonton]

Originally Posted by trytolearnmore

29 times? What is he trying to do, send a subliminal message?

Haha, there's nothing subliminal about a keyword phrase appearing 29 times in an article!!

[paulgl]

Maybe the word "article" is a misnomer.

Maybe we are talking about sales pages, ad copy, etc.

Not really the same.

Anyone with any article writing for SEO purposes is going to
be advising the client. SEO may or may not be in the mix
here.

I have hired warriors and have never given any instructions.
And they pan out just fine.

Part of being a writer, IMHO, is working with the client, but
they should realize they are relying on your expertise.

What people seem to have neglected here, is that the writer
is hired for results. A writer has to take into account what is
a bad practice that may lead to failure. If all this is explained,
and client still insists, a caveat has got to be issued after
getting it done and paid.

Giving the customer what they want needs to be balanced by
good writing practices in the case at hand. And you may not
want to use that person or job in your portfolio.

But in the end....

There is no magic keyword density. It has to flow with the
article and be a good read for the visitor. A good writer would
be able to get that phrase in 29 times and still make it look natural
and flow. I have done the same thing myself using article segments,
section titles, Q&A, etc. That gives away some of the secrets, I guess.

There are probably 100 different takes on an article given the circumstances
of the purpose of the article. I know an article written for an adsense page
would be different than an article submitted to EZA.

Paul

[adamv]

Originally Posted by paulgl

Maybe the word "article" is a misnomer.

Maybe we are talking about sales pages, ad copy, etc.

Not really the same.

Anyone with any article writing for SEO purposes is going to
be advising the client. SEO may or may not be in the mix
here.

I have hired warriors and have never given any instructions.
And they pan out just fine.

Part of being a writer, IMHO, is working with the client, but
they should realize they are relying on your expertise.

What people seem to have neglected here, is that the writer
is hired for results. A writer has to take into account what is
a bad practice that may lead to failure. If all this is explained,
and client still insists, a caveat has got to be issued after
getting it done and paid.

Giving the customer what they want needs to be balanced by
good writing practices in the case at hand. And you may not
want to use that person or job in your portfolio.

But in the end....

There is no magic keyword density. It has to flow with the
article and be a good read for the visitor. A good writer would
be able to get that phrase in 29 times and still make it look natural
and flow. I have done the same thing myself using article segments,
section titles, Q&A, etc. That gives away some of the secrets, I guess.

There are probably 100 different takes on an article given the circumstances
of the purpose of the article. I know an article written for an adsense page
would be different than an article submitted to EZA.

Paul

I agree with everything you said except the part about a good writer being able to get the keyword phrase in 29 times and still make it look natural. Maybe that was a bit of an exageration or maybe not but with a 4 word phrase being used 29 times in an 800 word article it would have to be used in every other sentence. I don't see any way to make that "flow".

I'm in total agreement with the rest of your post though. :-)

[packerfan]

What I've learned from this thread... Most internet marketers suck at math...

Luckily the good ones only have to know how to count their money