Warrior Forum, Can You Beat The Blackhats?

[ExploringInfinity]

Here is an interesting idea.. I know how a lot of people on the Warrior Forum has a pretty good handle on SEO and how to rank a site, new or old..

And we all 'know' how the 'sandbox' tends to destroy new sites that use thousands of spammy links to rank these days (especially after Panda!)

Well, I came across this contest that is about to launch that looks like a good opportunity to prove that spam isn't everything... It's an SEO contest for who can rank a brand new domain for a yet to be announced keyword, but it's hosted by a 'blue fart' site..

There is a prize (3 months free VPS with a lot of expensive tools, including SENuke X, Xrumer, Scrapebox, AMR, and Sick Submitter).. It sounds like a decent prize to win.

Do you think that people from the WF could jump into a contest on a black hat forum and take the prize? I bet there's gotta be some guys here who could give the dark side a run for their money?

Everyone has to start with a brand new domain in the contest, and the keyword to rank for is going to be announced on the contest start date... I saw this and I just thought I would love to see the WF hold it's own against those mad hatters!

I won't post the URL here because I know people frown upon that, but if the WF thinks they can take the cake on this, PM me and we can set up a little team to topple those shady buggers!

[mattlaclear]

Sounds like a pretty lame prize actually. Real seo'ers do it for straight cash.

[wolfmmiii]

It has been said that to master black hat, one must master whitehat first. I've been involved with both for a long time and I'd put my money on a black-hatter every time when it comes to quick rankings.

[ExploringInfinity]

Originally Posted by mattlaclear

Sounds like a pretty lame prize actually. Real seo'ers do it for straight cash.

They were considering a cash prize, but it seemed more people wanted access to the VPS so they went with that.

Most real SEO's already have all those tools though, I hear ya.

[MikeFriedman]

The Black Hatters will win in a landslide. I have no doubt.

[wolfmmiii]

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

The Black Hatters will win in a landslide. I have no doubt.

Yep, I believe the best black-hatter is 100x better than the best white-hatter at most things SEO.

[Steven Smith]

I wouldn't waist my energy for three months of a VPS! Not if it were three years.
Besides I don't do Black Hat, that would be too easy, do it the white hat way and then you would have a competition.

[InTheMaking]

Originally Posted by Steven Smith

I wouldn't waist my energy for three months of a VPS! Not if it were three years.
Besides I don't do Black Hat, that would be too easy, do it the white hat way and then you would have a competition.

So in different words, black hatters are wayy better SEO'ers then White Hatters?

[Steven Smith]

Originally Posted by InTheMaking

So in different words, black hatters are wayy better SEO'ers then White Hatters?

I'm not sure what point it is your trying to make but what I mean is it's always been MUCH easier to do things the wrong way that the right way.

Getting a site or a page ranked for example, isn't to difficult even for high competition keywords/phrases but having those pages still indexed 30 or so days later is something completely different.

Some of us make real money servicing real businesses and wouldn't dream of using Black Hat methods because we are in in for the long term and are don't mind doing things the right way.

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by ExploringInfinity

They were considering a cash prize, but it seemed more people wanted access to the VPS so they went with that.

The cash prize must have been measly. I have to agree with Matt thats one lousy prize (especially since most of the time people offer VPS with stuff like that its bootleg copies).

Originally Posted by wolfmmiii

Yep, I believe the best black-hatter is 100x better than the best white-hatter at most things SEO.

Dead wrong. There are ton loads of serps where black hatters will have no long term success if for no other reason that where real money is being made competitors will eventually report them and they go bye bye ala JC Penney.

Originally Posted by Steven Smith

Some of us make real money servicing real businesses and wouldn't dream of using Black Hat methods because we are in in for the long term and are don't mind doing things the right way.

Agreed but with reservation up to a point. The problem nowadays is that there are different definitions of White, black, grey. For example many SEOs will buy an advertising link that oops doesn't exactly follow Googl'es recommendation that it be nofollowed. Me? I don't think one company can dictate to everyone what morality is especially when they say one thing and do the other. HP will link to microsoft as a partner and that seems to be white. Google themselves link to other companies with followed links so its white as far as they are concerned. So if one of my business partners/sister sites link to me? Well sorry - White Hat.

[trytolearnmore]

That is a difficult question. I mean, we do know what techniques "white hatters" use but "bluefarters" may have some tricks up their sleeves that we don't know of.

[Steven Smith]

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Agreed but with reservation up to a point. The problem nowadays is that there are different definitions of White, black, grey. For example many SEOs will buy an advertising link that oops doesn't exactly follow Googl'es recommendation that it be nofollowed. Me? I don't think one company can dictate to everyone what morality is especially when they say one thing and do the other. HP will link to microsoft as a partner and that seems to be white. Google themselves link to other companies with followed links so its white as far as they are concerned. So if one of my business partners/sister sites link to me? Well sorry - White Hat.

That would be considered Grey Hat would it not? or Blue Fart or whatever you want to call it. Black Hat to me isn't a quagmire of definitions and opinions it is simply "purposely" using unethical methods to derive a result via methods that the serps deem inappropriate.

THAT is what I am referring to when I reference the term BLACK HAT.

[markowe]

People talk about bl*ck hat as if it's black magic - really I don't believe there are some mystical secrets for which people have sold their souls to the Devil that are exclusive to bl*ck hatters. Most SEOers on this forum are doing bl*ck hat SEO (by any definition of the term) - Xrumer links, blog spam comments, bought links... What's the difference?

[InTheMaking]

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Dead wrong. There are ton loads of serps where black hatters will have no long term success if for no other reason that where real money is being made competitors will eventually report them and they go bye bye ala JC Penney.

JC Penney bought links on irrelevant articles/websites.. To be honest, I'm not sure if you should be constantly preaching your "White Hat".

Depending on what your definition of "Black Hat" is, the tools out there are as "White Hat" as you decide to use them.

[wolfmmiii]

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

Dead wrong. There are ton loads of serps where black hatters will have no long term success if for no other reason that where real money is being made competitors will eventually report them and they go bye bye ala JC Penney.

You quoted me and still misspoke. I said the best black-hatter is 100x better than the best white-hatter at all things SEO, especially in the context of the OP.

I would bet that most serious black-hatters are all fantastic white-hat SEOs

[mattlaclear]

Most folks who say they only do white hat seo usually are black hatters without knowing they are. Google wants us all to link bait our way to page one. Anything other than that is black hat.

But who gives a rip. I don't.

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by Steven Smith

That would be considered Grey Hat would it not? or Blue Fart or whatever you want to call it. Black Hat to me isn't a quagmire of definitions and opinions it is simply "purposely" using unethical methods to derive a result via methods that the serps deem inappropriate.

THAT is what I am referring to when I reference the term BLACK HAT.

Well you see thats exactly what has become slanted. You are right it implies using unethical methods- hence the idea of black(unfortunate near racist implications). But theres been a bending of the meaning of unethical as to what Google approves of and my point is I won't call something black or grey because a company CLAIMS its black or Grey (but yet does some things themselves that are grey in their on book- I have SEEN with my two eyes Google link to its partners without the nofollow tag where there IS financial incentives involved).

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by wolfmmiii

You quoted me and still misspoke. I said the best black-hatter is 100x better than the best white-hatter at all things SEO, especially in the context of the OP.

I would bet that most serious black-hatters are all fantastic white-hat SEOs

Dead wrong. You can bet whatever you wish your bet is not evidence. I didn't misspeak. I just flat out disagree with you. I've been in this industry for awhile and never met a black hatter that could linkbait as good as those who only do that. Common sense would indicate that those who rely on those techniques exclusively would be more skilled at it. Black hatters have a natural bent toward taking shortcuts that does not lend itself to being great link baiters. I 'm sure you can find exceptions but your generalization across the board or most statement is wrong and demonstrably so by the black hatters I have conversed with.

this board is full of black hatters and the crickets come out in force when there is a thread on linkbaiting. Frankly this nonsense idea of the supremacy (100X ) of black hatters lives only on online communities that have a large group committed to that approach.

Most folks who say they only do white hat seo usually are black hatters without knowing they are. Google wants us all to link bait our way to page one.

Well I get you but Thats where I part with the implications of the term black and grey. One company doesn't have the power to claim by black that what it itself does on its own is wrong when someone else does it. Google claims that if I have a site I shouldn't link to another one of my sites either if it would "manipulate" the index. Does it link to partner sites where there is a financial involvement? yep. Anyone call Google a black hat company?

but yes I recognize by those that accept these labels that what I do is grey hat. I mean all I have to do is contact someone for a link and theres someone who would consider that manipulating the index. I have even seen Cutts imply that article marketing across the board regardless of article quality is somehow suspect and thats where you write a (hopefully quality) article and get a link in just the way that Google claims content ought to get links.

[wolfmmiii]

lol...we'll agree to disagree....although you are wrong....

[paulgl]

There is no various colors of SEO. Either it is or it isn't.

We are talking about websites, people, not real life.

Paul

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by wolfmmiii

lol...we'll agree to disagree....although you are wrong....

well You can agree to disagree but there's no "we" in there. Don't do any agreeing for me thats about as off as Black haters are 100XX times better dude. They are just awesome man.

I wonder why 90% of the serps I am in day in and day out have so few BlueFart techniques showing up in their link profile and pages whenever it comes to a competitive serp? and yeah If you are "grey " hatter like me you can very well spot them. They jsut are flat out not there when it comes to really competitive serps. When they do show up every once in awhile like with JC penney they get their bells rung,reported and sent to the corner for a long time out.

[JackPowers]

Spamming using tools is far from black hat. That's just kinda spammy white hat.

Real black hat is about having a lot of technical knowledge of the web and taking advantage of that to find glitches in Google's algorithm. Real bla.ck hat is very creative and clever.

[DamenRabat]

Originally Posted by JackPowers

Spamming using tools is far from black hat. That's just kinda spammy white hat.

Real black hat is about having a lot of technical knowledge of the web and taking advantage of that to find glitches in Google's algorithm. Real bla.ck hat is very creative and clever.

Maybe it is because of that that bl.hatters have an aura of being particularly sneaky, smart and independent. But are their techniques effective in the long run too? As far as I understand it big G seems to change their algos every few months, no?

[wolfmmiii]

Originally Posted by JackPowers

Spamming using tools is far from black hat. That's just kinda spammy white hat.

Real black hat is about having a lot of technical knowledge of the web and taking advantage of that to find glitches in Google's algorithm. Real bla.ck hat is very creative and clever.

^This^

People confuse spamming and tool usage with black hat and make comments / draw conclusions on this faulty "knowledge".

[wolfmmiii]

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

They are just awesome man.

The good ones are

[JackPowers]

Originally Posted by DamenRabat

Maybe it is because of that that bl.hatters have an aura of being particularly sneaky, smart and independent. But are their techniques effective in the long run too? As far as I understand it big G seems to change their algos every few months, no?

It's about first mover advantage