Its not more links, its not your SEO. You don't rank because you won't change your dream

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by troybh

T Mr. Anthony makes a point but the fact is internet marketers must do and continue to do what makes them money. Rehashing articles and making a website and repeat. Still a lot of junk out there ranking and this is not going to stop.

Troy if you want to throw the dice be my guess. Fact is TONs of people following that theory got slapped this year and are no longer making money so the whole argument that marketers must continue to do what makes them money is flat.

Its not making money for alot of people now. Keep the dream alive but no need to come in here later crying that Google just made another update and tanked your site.

Lets face it people in no other avenue of life or business could you rely on an advertiser bringing you customers if they told you point blank they are at war with your business. Sure many sites still slip through their cracks and get ranked but last time I checked The ultimate goal of marketers was to make money that could make a consistent change to their lives. If you do not adapt any day you can wake up and your online income is gone.

At the very least people need to have at least a few sites that give Google what they want or they don't have a business - just a hobby to get some Christmas money or some other temporary goals

[MikeFriedman]

It was admittedly a small sample size that I polled. It was through an email list, facebook, and a blog. But it was enough for me to believe that people do not care about URLs in the SERPs.

Please explain the social value of EMDs, because what you are talking about is really making zero sense to me.

Is it just that you feel people are more likely to click on an EMD in the SERP? Is it that you think you are going to get tons of traffic from people typing in EMD.com?


This point especially makes no sense to me.

Originally Posted by RatRaceWatch

but internet marketing is going to go through drastic changes (it is already), that is going to change a lot of the gaming of SEO, and turn it into the social power your website has.

Where does an EMD factor into that?

[RatRaceWatch]

To Mike:

Please explain the social value of EMDs

The online universe is in a sense a replica of the real business world.

Your domain, is your name, your identity.

If a person is driving down the street, and there are 10 buildings lined up (lets pretend thats google rank).

And they are looking for Shoes, what do you think is going to stand out the most? The store that says Shoes, or the store that doesn't?


You asked if I feel people are more likely to click on an EMD in the SERP?

Absolutely I do! I also think you are limiting your thinking about how people will be finding information especially over the next decade. SERPs will be one of many factors, and having those EXACT keywords for your main target keyword as your domain will add to the value.

You think you are going to get tons of traffic from people typing in EMD.com?

Depends on the category, and search volume. Over time I believe typing in a URL will become more mainstream, because people that are savvy will target peoples exact questions.

I again invite you to take on my challenge since it "makes no sense to" you.

Riddle me this

Lets say your top (main keyword is):

Dog Training

Would you rather have:

DogTraining.com (as a brand new domain)

or DogTrainingHQ.com (as a 1 year old domain)

Now think wisely about this, because everything you are indicating points towards DogTrainingHq.com by how little you regard EMDs in social value.
- Ryan

[MikeFriedman]

Ok I get what you are saying, but...

I still think a good title tag will trump a good URL 999 times out of 1000. There is much more "social value" in a catch phrase than there is in an EMD.

As far as dogtraining.com versus dogtraininghq.com, I think you just made a point that flies in the face of everything else you said.

Everything else being equal, I would say that DogTrainingHQ.com has more "social value". To an observer I would think that it sounds like a site with more authority and know-how than just DogTraining.com.

So would DogTrainingAcademy.com and DogTrainingFAQs.com.

Going back to your argument of driving down the street and I needed a dog trainer, if I saw 3 businesses lined up that were called...

Dog Training
Dog Training HQ
Dog Training Academy

Dog Training would be the last one I would check out.


And for the shoes example... Flying Feet and Finish Line are two very popular places to get shoes. Neither has the word shoes in their name, but I would shop at either of them before going to PayLessShoes. Same with Dick's Sporting Goods and Sports Authority.

[yukon]

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

And for the shoes example... Flying Feet and Finish Line are two very popular places to get shoes. Neither has the word shoes in their name, but I would shop at either of them before going to PayLessShoes. Same with Dick's Sporting Goods and Sports Authority.

I think you explained it better than I could.

I think others are confusing average EMDs with branding.

Anyone not on Social Security knows that "Finish Line" = shoes (sport related clothes). "Finish Line" is the brand, sure they have an EMD, but it's for the brand (Finish Line).

Offline, If I'm driving down the street & see two stores (Shoes & Finish Line), I wouldn't even think about it, I would stop at Finish Line.

Why would I stop at Finish Line & not the generic Shoes store, because I know Finish Line has cool shoes/clothes. It's been pounded in my head since I was a teen (tv commercials, magazine Ads, friends (social), etc...) that Finish Line has cool stuff to buy.

I've never once in my life seen a tv commercial or magazine Ad for a generic term like shoes. The word is to broad, means nothing to me, therefore no social value.

Anyone ever had a friend say "Let's go down to Shoes & see what they have to buy"?

Again, EMDs & branding are not the same things.

I didn't intend on sidetracking OPs thread, I'm done, I have no idea how to further explain EMDs are not a solution to seo.

[RatRaceWatch]

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Ok I get what you are saying, but...

I still think a good title tag will trump a good URL 999 times out of 1000. There is much more "social value" in a catch phrase than there is in an EMD.

As far as dogtraining.com versus dogtraininghq.com, I think you just made a point that flies in the face of everything else you said.

Everything else being equal, I would say that DogTrainingHQ.com has more "social value". To an observer I would think that it sounds like a site with more authority and know-how than just DogTraining.com.

So would DogTrainingAcademy.com and DogTrainingFAQs.com.

Going back to your argument of driving down the street and I needed a dog trainer, if I saw 3 businesses lined up that were called...

Dog Training
Dog Training HQ
Dog Training Academy

Dog Training would be the last one I would check out.


And for the shoes example... Flying Feet and Finish Line are two very popular places to get shoes. Neither has the word shoes in their name, but I would shop at either of them before going to PayLessShoes. Same with Dick's Sporting Goods and Sports Authority.

I'm disappointed you didn't directly answer my questions as I did yours (at least the very important ones). I feel you're dancing around the argument (no offense).

So back to my question, are you saying that you would choose DogTrainingHq.com over DogTraining.com? even if the HQ site had a year on the dog training site.

As for your statement about a catch phrase, sure that's important, but guess what, if you are in the top ten, you can change your catch phrase to match your competitors with the simplicity of changing the words and a click.

Given the success of one of my best sites, my competitors actually changed the titles and descriptions to more closely match mine. Therefore, if you can change it on the spot, it doesn't give you as much of an edge when it can be replicated, as opposed to a domain name, especially an EMD which is unique and cannot be replicated, unless they register the same name with another extension.

Your example of well known stores is of course in an opinion based on your preferences. Perhaps I should have been more clear. Unless you are running commercials and other forms of marketing that probably run into the 100's of thousands of dollars, or you've come up with something completely unique, using brands is irrelevant because there are too many other factors.

See how many shoe companies would turn down the opportunity to own the EMD shoes.com for the keyword shoes, and then you tell me EMD's have little to no social value.

[RatRaceWatch]

Originally Posted by yukon

I think you explained it better than I could.

I think others are confusing average EMDs with branding.

Anyone not on Social Security knows that "Finish Line" = shoes (sport related clothes). "Finish Line" is the brand, sure they have an EMD, but it's for the brand (Finish Line).

Offline, If I'm driving down the street & see two stores (Shoes & Finish Line), I wouldn't even think about it, I would stop at Finish Line.

Why would I stop at Finish Line & not the generic Shoes store, because I know Finish Line has cool shoes/clothes. It's been pounded in my head since I was a teen (tv commercials, magazine Ads, etc...) that Finish Line has cool stuff to buy.

I've never once in my life seen a tv commercial or magazine Ad for a generic term like shoes. The word is to broad, means nothing to me, therefore no social value.

Again, EMDs & branding are not the same things.

You are dead on right about EMDs & Branding are not the same thing.

So I'm confused why this is relevant to the argument?

I invite you to answer my question above, how many shoe companies do you think would turn down the opportunity to own shoes.com, and then you tell me EMD has no social value.

[MikeFriedman]

Originally Posted by RatRaceWatch

I'm disappointed you didn't directly answer my questions as I did yours (at least the very important ones). I feel you're dancing around the argument (no offense).

So back to my question, are you saying that you would choose DogTrainingHq.com over DogTraining.com? even if the HQ site had a year on the dog training site.

I'm not sure what I didn't answer. I think I made it pretty clear that I would take DogTrainingHQ.com over DogTraining.com if i am basing my decision solely on what you are calling "social value".

[JackPowers]

EMD work because of the need for Google to show brands for brand searches. Maybe they have figured out another way of doing this or not, I don't know.

I just consider EMDs as short term money makers and lose no sleep if they drop.

[RatRaceWatch]

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

I'm not sure what I didn't answer. I think I made it pretty clear that I would take DogTrainingHQ.com over DogTraining.com if i am basing my decision solely on what you are calling "social value".

Actually I asked:

Lets say your top (main keyword is):

Dog Training

Would you rather have:

DogTraining.com (as a brand new domain)

or DogTrainingHQ.com (as a 1 year old domain)

Which would require an answer for which you would rather have.

You replied:
Everything else being equal, I would say that DogTrainingHQ.com has more "social value". To an observer I would think that it sounds like a site with more authority and know-how than just DogTraining.com.

Nowhere in that statement did you indicate which one you would take if presented with the two. That's wordplay sir, and I'm no stranger to that.

So in response you didn't make it pretty clear.
I just wanted to set the record straight, so if anyone reviews this forum, they can see that this is your choice to back up your argument.
Now it's up to everyone else to judge based on the arguments presented. Especially when a backer of the EMD = no social value opinion would choose DogTrainingHQ.com (1 year old domain) over DogTraining.com (New Domain).
- Ryan "0

[MikeFriedman]

Originally Posted by RatRaceWatch

Actually I asked:

Lets say your top (main keyword is):

Dog Training

Would you rather have:

DogTraining.com (as a brand new domain)

or DogTrainingHQ.com (as a 1 year old domain)

Which would require an answer for which you would rather have.

You replied:
Everything else being equal, I would say that DogTrainingHQ.com has more "social value". To an observer I would think that it sounds like a site with more authority and know-how than just DogTraining.com.

Nowhere in that statement did you indicate which one you would take if presented with the two. That's wordplay sir, and I'm no stranger to that.

So in response you didn't make it pretty clear.
I just wanted to set the record straight, so if anyone reviews this forum, they can see that this is your choice to back up your argument.
Now it's up to everyone else to judge based on the arguments presented. Especially when a backer of the EMD = no social value opinion would choose DogTrainingHQ.com (1 year old domain) over DogTraining.com (New Domain).
- Ryan "0

Jesus Christ. Would you stop talking in cirlces?

I said all things being equal I would take dogtraininghq.com over dogtraining.com.

I'm sorry you couldn't see that in my response, but I think to most people reading this thread they would have made that connection from my post.

Just in case you are not clear... I WOULD TAKE DOGTRAININGHQ.COM OVER DOGTRAINING.COM IF I WAS BASING A DECISION ON "SOCIAL VALUE".

Now please explain why you wouldn't and stop avoiding it.

[Goath]

I have to agree, but our time is limited. If you want to put up great, authorative websites you need a lot of time. The easy, short way is attractive. But it's also a short term solution. If it's earning a lot of money in short term, you can use that money (if you are smart) for long term business.

That's the way I would do it. But I'm too lazy!

[realmaverick]

The core message is good. However, it often can be their links and their SEO that's all wrong. But sure, often it can be the websites themselves.

Onsite SEO is important. And as Mark said, junk websites will struggle to rank more and more, rightly so. That said, I've seen plenty of quality sites get caught up in the Panda bullcrap.

[RatRaceWatch]

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Jesus Christ. Would you stop talking in cirlces?

I said all things being equal I would take dogtraininghq.com over dogtraining.com.

I'm sorry you couldn't see that in my response, but I think to most people reading this thread they would have made that connection from my post.

Just in case you are not clear... I WOULD TAKE DOGTRAININGHQ.COM OVER DOGTRAINING.COM IF I WAS BASING A DECISION ON "SOCIAL VALUE".

Now please explain why you wouldn't and stop avoiding it.

Wow, really man? You think with a conversation being in text for us to see EXACTLY what was said, there would be no reason to disort things.

You never said:

I said all things being equal I would take dogtraininghq.com over dogtraining.com.

I then responded that you were using wordplay and avoiding the answer.

Then you finally clarified saying you're not sure what you didn't answer.

I then SHOWED you your quote, and now you come back with this?

Now you ask to please explain why I wouldn't and stop avoiding it.

Again.... you never addressed me to do so, this is ridiculous, please re-read the conversation before you continue to distort the situation further.

And I would love to know how I am talking in circles? I've answered all your questions, while I've had to ask you over and over to give me clear answers on yours. Are you sure that isn't self-directed at yourself.

If you can't address the conversation/debate in a sensible tone, then it's best to stay out of it.

As for the question I was never asked until now:

I would choose DogTraining.com over DogTrainingHQ.com because the simple authority of the domain name. People aren't stupid, and they recognize the importance of a rare name.

I asked a friend of mine and my girlfriend who knows nothing about internet marketing today which one they would click on, they answered the DogTraining, and then they joked that it was probably owned by some large corporation and worth a million dollars.

People weren't born yesterday, and they understand the importance of a site that is the Direct, Exact title of what they are looking for.

I know this to be true both in the online and offline world, and internet marketers deserve to know the truth.

Which side they choose to take is up to them, but avoiding my challenge, misreading the conversation, avoiding direct answers, and then getting pissed that I point it out, doesn't say much for the merits of your point.

I'm getting tired of arguing this topic with you, and sadly this wasn't the original subject of the thread, but I found I had to defend myself and the point against what I believe to be ridiculous claims.

People will do what they will. Choose your side wisely.

P.S. Please don't pose another question at me, because after this debate, I've lost some respect for people (I won't name names whether or not it's obvious), and I refuse to address people that are disregarding their text, etched in the internet universe for everyone to see.

- Peace & Love Warriors

- Ryan

[realmaverick]

Guys arguing isn't helping nobody. Fighting to prove one another wrong, proves nothing more than being right, is more important to you, than being helpful. In which case, maybe you're in the wrong place.

Or maybe you just need to stop for a second and consider how bitching at one another is a waste of time and not perceived particularly well, by those observing.

Lets all compare cock size with photos

[outwest]

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Jesus Christ. Would you stop talking in cirlces?

I said all things being equal I would take dogtraininghq.com over dogtraining.com.

I'm sorry you couldn't see that in my response, but I think to most people reading this thread they would have made that connection from my post.

Just in case you are not clear... I WOULD TAKE DOGTRAININGHQ.COM OVER DOGTRAINING.COM IF I WAS BASING A DECISION ON "SOCIAL VALUE".

Now please explain why you wouldn't and stop avoiding it.

and you say I am the one who likes to argue with everybody?
You seem to be getting the reputation as an arguing troublemaker

[dagaul101]

I agree that Google is only looking after its users, and has always stated quality sites and a professional appearance is what it's after

[mosthost]

Originally Posted by dagaul101

I agree that Google is only looking after its users, and has always stated quality sites and a professional appearance is what it's after

You bring up an important factor when you say appearance. Nobody ever talks about how your site looks, but it seems that's getting to be a huge factor.

Google even said you should ask yourself: "would I be comfortable giving my credit card to this website?" The answer is "NO" for lots of websites out there that have been shoddily constructed and then heavily backlinked for rankings.

[MikeFriedman]

Ok. My exact words were...

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Everything else being equal, I would say that DogTrainingHQ.com has more "social value". To an observer I would think that it sounds like a site with more authority and know-how than just DogTraining.com.

Which I think makes it pretty clear that I'm picking DogTrainingHQ.com over DogTraining.com based on your social value stuff.

Then I went on to explain why.

Originally Posted by MikeFriedman

Going back to your argument of driving down the street and I needed a dog trainer, if I saw 3 businesses lined up that were called...

Dog Training
Dog Training HQ
Dog Training Academy

Dog Training would be the last one I would check out.

But forget about all that. I think at this point, I've made it clear which one I believe has more social value.

I love EMDs... for their SEO value. All I'm asking for is to show me some proof of what you are saying. Show me an experiment that was done where an EMD got far more clicks than a closely related URL or an extensive poll that was done to see which people would be more likely to click on (preferably a poll of non internet marketers).

So far the only evidence you have come close to providing us is...

Originally Posted by RatRaceWatch

I asked a friend of mine and my girlfriend who knows nothing about internet marketing today which one they would click on, they answered the DogTraining, and then they joked that it was probably owned by some large corporation and worth a million dollars.

Which is a very scientific way to do things because A) I'm sure they were not biased at all and B) it is a huge sample size.

And please show some evidence for this other than your feelings.

Originally Posted by RatRaceWatch

People weren't born yesterday, and they understand the importance of a site that is the Direct, Exact title of what they are looking for.

I know this to be true both in the online and offline world, and internet marketers deserve to know the truth.

In the internet marketing world, when talking to some people, I've actually found the opposite to be true. Many people have told me they avoid the EMD URL because they know it is probably just some spammy junk site (which most of them are). Hell, I do it. For example, when I'm looking for the review of some product, if I see a productnamereview.com website, I avoid it because I know it is probably an affiliate site with a completely biased review.

All I'm asking for is some concrete proof of what you are saying. People constantly post stuff in here as fact with nothing to back it up other than what they think or feel. I'm not even arguing that you are wrong. I'm just saying show some proof.

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by Goath

That's the way I would do it. But I'm too lazy!

Perhaps but I find that where people are lazy is with thinking. I see people who have the lazy my way to success dream that spend a whole lot of effort and time on it. They spend hours doing keyword research, hours on picking PLR content , hours selecting backlink packages and going through various WSO offers.

They just don't add the time and effort of going after the succeed by laziness dream.