The price debate... Copywriters?

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

There has been a lot of talk in the CW forum here lately about price... Who wouldn't hire someone under $1500, who would, who is good under that price point, etc. etc.

There are many differing points of view. Mine personally is that not everyone can afford a huge copywriting bill, but still deserve a good chance at making sales. So copywriters who are looking to build a portfolio, running a WSO, etc. may be the best option for these people. I know of at least two other fantastic copywriters right here on this forum that charge under $1000, and there are probably many more "in hiding".

What is your final word on the subject? Should copywriters price their work low if they want to? Or should we all make a secret pact to raise our prices out of reach from the little guy once we get to a certain quality level?

Let's debate.

- Cherilyn

[colmodwyer]

What are you saying Cherilyn, you could get as much as John Carlton if you really wanted to; but you're not going to charge that much because people with small budgets need copywriters too?

Unless of course every other copywriter agrees to make a little pact that from now on we all charge $20,000 per letter; then you'll charge more too?

Not too sure it works like that unfortunately...

Colm

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by Cherilyn Lester

What is your final word on the subject? Should copywriters price their work low if they want to? Or should we all make a secret pact to raise our prices out of reach from the little guy once we get to a certain quality level?

Let's debate.

- Cherilyn

Copywriters can price their work where ever they want to. It's up to the market they are targeting to decide if the copywriter is worth their asking price.

It also comes down to volume of work... do you want to write a lot of sales letters each month to make what you need to make? In other words, if you need to make $3K per month just to meet your bills... you could write 15 sales letters at $197... or 1 sales letter at $3K.

Personally, I usually spend about 40 hours on each sales letter I write from scratch between research, writing, editing, rewriting, polishing, etc, etc. I don't have the TIME to write 15 sales letters each month and keep the same level of detail that I normally do.

It's the same reason why I charge $4K and up to write a sales letter from scratch. If I accept a project, it's a huge time and energy commitment for me to do, so I charge accordingly.

My 2 cents,

Mike

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Personally, I usually spend about 40 hours on each sales letter I write from scratch between research, writing, editing, rewriting, polishing, etc, etc. I don't have the TIME to write 15 sales letters each month and keep the same level of detail that I normally do.

It's the same reason why I charge $4K and up to write a sales letter from scratch. If I accept a project, it's a huge time and energy commitment for me to do, so I charge accordingly.

Mike, you are spending waay too much time on each letter.

I'd tell you what I spend on a sales letter but you wouldn't believe me.

[cherylwright]

Originally Posted by Harlan

Mike, you are spending waay too much time on each letter.

I agree. I nearly fell off my chair when I read this! (But then again, if clients are willing to pay you $4k plus per letter, they'd expect that sort of time commitment.)





Cheryl

[Eric Engel]

Mike said "from scratch". Some of us still think up our own letters.

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by Harlan

Mike, you are spending waay too much time on each letter.

I'd tell you what I spend on a sales letter but you wouldn't believe me.

Hey Harlan,

Yeah, we talked briefly about this topic a few months ago in the copywriters forum. I have a pretty good idea of what you do but since it's part of a paid product of yours, I'll let it at that. I'd hate for someone to reveal the contents of a paid product of mine in a public forum, so I won't do that to anyone else.

I spend that kind of time (40+ hours) on client projects. For my personal info product projects, it's a fraction of that because I don't have to worry about doing product research. My last sales letter for a coaching group class took me about 8 hours to write and have ready for prime time.

Take care,

Mike

[Collette]

Re: Cherilyn:
There has been a lot of talk in the CW forum here lately about price... Who wouldn't hire someone under $1500, who would, who is good under that price point, etc. etc.

There are many differing points of view. Mine personally is that not everyone can afford a huge copywriting bill, but still deserve a good chance at making sales.

Making the sale involves a bit more than just the copy. I can write the most kick-ass, blow-your-socks-off, unbelievably brilliant sales letter, BUT...

If the client don't got no coin to market that brilliant sales letter right, it's not going to do them a damn bit of good. I can't sell a darn thing for them if nobody sees the letter, or if the client is selling to the wrong people, in the wrong place, and at the wrong time.

You wouldn't believe (or maybe you would) the number of people who contact me, wanting me to write a killer sales letter for them. And in the same breath confessing that they're down to their last grimy, thin dime.

What I'm going to say next may sound harsh, but it needs to be said: I'm a copywriter. Not a miracle worker. If you have no money to pay me, you have no money to market your product. If you don't have the money to do it right - albeit on a small scale - wait until you have the money to do so. Otherwise you are just throwing your money away, however you throw it.

So copywriters who are looking to build a portfolio, running a WSO, etc. may be the best option for these people. I know of at least two other fantastic copywriters right here on this forum that charge under $1000, and there are probably many more "in hiding".

No problem with this concept. I think it's a great idea for new copywriters to write for anyone and everyone. The more you write, the more you'll learn. WSOs are an excellent avenue for Warriors on a tight budget to hook up with an up-and-coming copywriter.

Just keep your expectations realistic. The best copywriters can write a winning sales letter for almost anyone, for any product or service, in any industry. The knowledge and skill it takes to do that doesn't happen without practice and training.

I grant you, if you're writing for "a starving market" and you have THE ONE solution they're desperate for, you don't need a whole lot of skill. Heck, you could just hang out a sign saying "Your Desperate Solution Here. Come Get It." and get results.

However, when you start writing for more sophisticated markets, you need to know your stuff. Or you will crater. Huge.

I'm good at what I do. I've worked damn hard to be good at it, too. Over the years, I've easily spent over $60,000 (conservative estimate), and countless hours on my career, my education, and building my business. Early in my career, when I didn't have the money to spend, I worked my ass off absorbing as much good, free information as I could find. Later, when I had the money, I happily spent it to better myself.

Some of the opportunities I took advantage of were a painful fiscal stretch for me. I paid in installments when I could. I maxed out the cards when I couldn't. I stayed in roach motels, instead of $300/night conference hotels. I walked to the conference locations to save money on cabs.

I don't regret one single dime. Not one. I did it for me, yes, but I also made sacrifices so I could deliver better results for my clients.

The components of marketing are an investment, not an expense. People who would pay $1,500 for a crappy Yellow pages ad, balk at paying a copywriter $500. I'm not the highest priced copywriter - not by a long shot - but I DO place a value on the value I bring to my clients. IMHO, EVERY copywriter should do the same. As your value grows, so should your personal estimate of your worth.

I don't just write copy for my clients. I look at all aspects of their marketing. I give them the best advice I can for generating the most profits. And sometimes, the thing they need most, the piece of the puzzle that will generate the best ROI for them - is not me. If so, I'll tell 'em.

I've also worked with clients who hired me in "sections", because they didn't have $$ for the whole kit and kaboodle up front. Also fine. I'm happy to work with people who are committed to their business, and who understand the need to invest in their business. Even when they're Not-Trump.

What is your final word on the subject? Should copywriters price their work low if they want to?

Anybody is free to place whatever value they want on their time and their skills. However, in all honesty, I have found that someone who doesn't value their business and their offer enough to raise money to market it properly, is not likely to see the value in a good copywriter. To them, a copywriter is a commodity, like an extra filing cabinet for the office.

I can't speak for everyone who calls him or herself a copywriter. But I WILL say that I, and the professionals I respect, bring a heck of a lot more to the party than a bunch of words. And personally, I prefer to work with people who can appreciate that. And who make the effort to afford it.

Or should we all make a secret pact to raise our prices out of reach from the little guy once we get to a certain quality level?

Let me put this another way: You want to have plastic surgery done on your face. Do you go with the surgeon who comes with solid recommendations, who can show you examples of his/her work, who has an arsenal of tools for every imaginable situation that could arise during your surgery, and who has a wall of diplomas, citations, and awards - but who is pricy enough for your wallet to feel the squeeze?

Or do you go with the guy who shares a back wall with the local Subway shop, says he's qualified and trained (but can show you no evidence of qualifications or training), and who stores his dull scapel and slack-jawed haemostat in a plastic tool bucket - but who is quoting you a "killer" price for surgery?

Remember - this is your face we're talking about. The first and most powerful impression the world will have of you... the most obvious and the most difficult part of you to conceal.

Your marketing is the face of your business. So why anyone would want to skimp on the quality of the skills they apply to the face of their business, is beyond me.

It's not about keeping quality out of the reach of the little guy. Its about delivering something of value to someone who appreciates that value. Even if they have to appreciate the value in installments.

In the end, everyone has to make their own decision about how much their skills and time are worth - to them.

Let's debate.

- Cherilyn

[cherylwright]

Originally Posted by Eric Engel

Mike said "from scratch". Some of us still think up our own letters.

Not sure what you're saying here. I've never written a letter that's not from scratch.

And I've got a lot of happy clients...




Cheryl

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by cherylwright

Not sure what you're saying here. I've never written a letter that's not from scratch.

And I've got a lot of happy clients...




Cheryl

Some copywriters will borrow heavily from their swipe files to produce a sales letter for a client. Others don't use anything from their swipe files when they write from scratch.

That's the simplest way to explain the difference.

Mike

[cherylwright]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Some copywriters will borrow heavily from their swipe files to produce a sales letter for a client.

Really? Crumbs...



Cheryl

[Rich Muir]

Just a question isnt that what many writers are actually doing in one way or another. Steal & distribute, how many original ideas do we actually have so why not S&D from the greats of the art of writing copy

Rich

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by Rich Muir

Just a question isnt that what many writers are actually doing in one way or another. Steal & distribute, how many original ideas do we actually have so why not S&D from the greats of the art of writing copy

Rich

Actually, in the Dan Kennedy world S&D means Swipe and DEPLOY.

Ideas are a dime per dozen. There's countless themes and stories that can be used. For example, how many "I'm not a guru, I'm a regular guy" sales letter themes have you seen? Lots of them, I'm sure. That's swiping a theme which is fair game.

Stealing someone's copy is copying it word for word and that's against the law.

Swiping in it's simplest form involves taking someone else's copy and rewriting it in your own words without changing the way the theme/story is presented.

Hope that helps,

Mike

[Loren Woirhaye]

If the product/service is a tough sell... and the client is
clueless as to how to sell it.... then he should expect
to pay a realistic fee for somebody with experience to
sort out his mess of a selling proposition and coax a
coherent argument for a reader to buy from it.

The product and the offer are critical. A gifted product
with an attractive offer doesn't need stellar copy to sell
to a targeted market... but in the world of information
marketing that is so predominant on the 'net.... let's face
it.... a lot of people are just selling their own brand of
hype and in a lot of cases it can be tough to differentiate
it from the legions of competitors.

If great copy is Necessary to leverage a business to a position
of genuine advantage in the marketplace, then it's a wise
investment to pay somebody well who has the ideas and
ability to create a compelling selling argument for a product
that really is not much different from it's competitors.

[dorothydot]

I think pricing is a judgment call. Most copywriters [myself included] have a set scale of pricing that applies to pretty much all clients.

But I occasionally choose to deliberately give a client a break for one reason or another. When I write for fellow Warriors, for example - I work hard to slash the usual price. And if I have a close friend and marketer who needs my copywriting skills - again, because each of us helps and encourages the other [in uncountable, on-target ways that can't be monetized] in our marketing/writing quests, I'll set my fees on the low side.

And I do give away critiques from time to time on a couple of forums - even though I this is one of my copywriting strong points.

Hope this helps,
Dot

PS - I do occasionally use swipe files, but mostly this is to find the "voice" that targeted prospects react to the best.

[Eric Engel]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Actually, in the Dan Kennedy world S&D means Swipe and DEPLOY.

Ideas are a dime per dozen. There's countless themes and stories that can be used. For example, how many "I'm not a guru, I'm a regular guy" sales letter themes have you seen? Lots of them, I'm sure. That's swiping a theme which is fair game.

Stealing someone's copy is copying it word for word and that's against the law.

Swiping in it's simplest form involves taking someone else's copy and rewriting it in your own words without changing the way the theme/story is presented.

Hope that helps,

Mike

Rich -

Sometimes it's just a matter of opinion. To me, the block below isn't original. Yes, I know it would be legal, but that wouldn't make it right. I think this is an unethical way to swipe.

There are more ideas out there than you can shake a stick at. Stories, themes, etc,. Just to show you what I mean, how many times have you seen a "I did it, and I'm not a guru" sales letters? A LOT - and you know it. It's fine to swipe that IDEA.

But to take word-for-word paragraphs, and steal those--that's illegal.

To some people, swiping means grabbing a page full of copy and just rewording and rearranging things. Not necessarily changing the way you present the pitch.

Hopfully, this post will help you understand.

Eric

[simpledeals]

Sorry to deviate from the actual topic here, but I have to. I am really amazed at the flow of thoughts and the way you all PEN them down.

Amazing.

I can't yet, but I dream and hope to be arguing in the same tone, flow and fluency that you guys do.

Thmubs UP

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

This is an excellent debate that has been sparked here.

I suppose I should put in my "two cents"...

I price my work according to what I can get, depending on the market, my experience in that market, the time and research it will take, and - in most cases - the client's budget.

I've written sales letters for $50 a few years ago (actually it was just one, and I did it for free and the Warrior sent me a $50 beer afterwards. )

I've also written $6000 single sales letters.

And I've covered every base in between... I just finished a $2500 project, and now I'm running a $297 WSO. The main reason I'm pricing the WSO low? My month was booked already. I finished a few projects early, had a few extra days, and decided to give a few warriors a chance - those who wouldn't be able to afford my fees at $1000+, but still have potential for their product if they have a little bit of help with their copy.

Plus, it is a great way to "break in" to big accounts. I've worked with several big name warriors through WSOs who turned into long lasting, satisfied clients who happily pay top dollar. Why?

Because they were more willing to risk $500 or less on a copywriter THEY hadn't worked with than they were $2000. Not because I was unproven with the market... Testimonials and samples can prove that. But because I was unproven with THEM.

I think varied pricing is a good idea. As long as you're not blatantly overcharging a client who can afford more "just because", I don't see an issue with giving the little guy a break, while still keeping your regular fee at an acceptable level.

Let's keep this going

- Cherilyn

[Anita Ashland]

Originally Posted by Cherilyn Lester

Plus, it is a great way to "break in" to big accounts. I've worked with several big name warriors through WSOs who turned into long lasting, satisfied clients who happily pay top dollar.

You raise a good point, Cherilyn.

Someone's bargain WSO price for a sales letter is only one small piece of the ultimate transaction.

A smart copywriter will take that low fee and turn around and build a relationship with that client and upsell an autoresponder series to go with that sales letter, maybe a video script and other services. The first sales letter I wrote was for $500 but has ultimately resulted in thousands in fees from that one client.

So I can't get bent out of shape if I see someone offering to do a sales letter for $500 or if, like you, they offer varied pricing.

[Phil]

The guys earning the highest sums for their writing aren't always
the best writers (often, by their own admission) - they are simply
the best copywriting marketers.

The truth is that if you can write, and you enjoy the particular
challenges of the copywriting job, then you'll probably agree it's
not really that difficult.

I've been at both ends of the scale, writing for pennies and earning
a good rate so I know not to pour scorn on either endeavor. Truth
is, however much I was able to charge, my writing didn't change;
but my marketing did.

Good writers often prioritise their craft; so if you catch one before
they've started working on their marketing skills you might find you
have yourself a bargain.

Phil

[sarahstaar]

What if you pay $500 or $2000 for a sales page and still get no sales. Will the copywriter split test the page with you or would they charge more for this ???

[Kyle Tully]

Originally Posted by Cherilyn Lester

There has been a lot of talk in the CW forum here lately about price... Who wouldn't hire someone under $1500, who would, who is good under that price point, etc. etc.

There are many differing points of view. Mine personally is that not everyone can afford a huge copywriting bill, but still deserve a good chance at making sales. So copywriters who are looking to build a portfolio, running a WSO, etc. may be the best option for these people. I know of at least two other fantastic copywriters right here on this forum that charge under $1000, and there are probably many more "in hiding".

What is your final word on the subject? Should copywriters price their work low if they want to? Or should we all make a secret pact to raise our prices out of reach from the little guy once we get to a certain quality level?

Let's debate.

- Cherilyn

Obviously any copywriter can charge whatever they like. Someone charging $1000 has zero effect on someone else charging $10,000. They're going after different markets. Even a group of copywriters raising their fees will have little effect on the market, soon enough someone else will come to fill the gap.

My main issue with hiring someone that only values themselves at ~$1000 a letter is if that's all they can get for "the most bankable skill on earth" then how on earth are they going to sell my product?

Building a portfolio, getting experience, and filling gaps in your schedule are all poor excuses as to why you only charge $1000.

Bottom line: You can either sell or you can't. Charging $100 for a "practice" letter is a rip off. $10,000 for a letter that sells is a bargain.

So... can you sell or not?

Years ago I got $4000 for my first letter. I had no testimonials, no portfolio, nothing. (I had already proven my skills writing for myself though -- I wouldn't charge someone else to practice on their business.)

How? I wrote a self promo piece that made someone give me money! You think they were convinced I could sell their $100 product when I just convinced them to give me $4000? You bet!

Every single time I've given someone a special rate it's blown up in my face. Either they haven't driven traffic like they should have, haven't even mailed the letter, haven't given me the final product, haven't given me all the materials I asked for... i.e. they always turn into nightmare clients.

If you're proving immense value then there's no reason why you shouldn't get paid well.

Cheers
Kyle

p.s. There's a big difference between 10 years experience and 1 years experience 10 times. I keep an eye on many of the copywriters here and I don't see many of the "cheap" guys getting better with each letter... it's just the same thing over and over. If you can really sell and your letters are working then let's get real... you're not really trying to build up your portfolio, it's your confidence that needs building up.

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by Kyle Tully

Obviously any copywriter can charge whatever they like. Someone charging $1000 has zero effect on someone else charging $10,000. They're going after different markets. Even a group of copywriters raising their fees will have little effect on the market, soon enough someone else will come to fill the gap.

My main issue with hiring someone that only values themselves at ~$1000 a letter is if that's all they can get for "the most bankable skill on earth" then how on earth are they going to sell my product?

Building a portfolio, getting experience, and filling gaps in your schedule are all poor excuses as to why you only charge $1000.

Bottom line: You can either sell or you can't. Charging $100 for a "practice" letter is a rip off. $10,000 for a letter that sells is a bargain.

So... can you sell or not?

Years ago I got $4000 for my first letter. I had no testimonials, no portfolio, nothing. (I had already proven my skills writing for myself though -- I wouldn't charge someone else to practice on their business.)

How? I wrote a self promo piece that made someone give me money! You think they were convinced I could sell their $100 product when I just convinced them to give me $4000? You bet!

Every single time I've given someone a special rate it's blown up in my face. Either they haven't driven traffic like they should have, haven't even mailed the letter, haven't given me the final product, haven't given me all the materials I asked for... i.e. they always turn into nightmare clients.

If you're proving immense value then there's no reason why you shouldn't get paid well.

Cheers
Kyle

p.s. There's a big difference between 10 years experience and 1 years experience 10 times. I keep an eye on many of the copywriters here and I don't see many of the "cheap" guys getting better with each letter... it's just the same thing over and over. If you can really sell and your letters are working then let's get real... you're not really trying to build up your portfolio, it's your confidence that needs building up.

Kyle,

You make a great point. How good can a writer be if they can't sell their own services for a good price? There may be exceptions, but the reflection of their abilities to sell there services as a copywriter to one person may show there ability to sell your product too.

Also, paying 10k doesn't guarantee a better sales letter. There are no guarantees. If this person purchasing a copywriter, has done there research, and can predict to some degree the success this product might have in the market place then a 5k-10k sales letter might be nothing or it might be a lot. Obviously, it all depends on ROI.

Building a portfolio, getting experience, and filling gaps in your schedule are all poor excuses as to why you only charge $1000.

I personally don't agree with this. I don't see anything wrong with this especially as the market place gets crowed with more competition- if you're willing to work for low offers that is. And maybe if your new. As a copywriter I'm sure you know how big social proof can be, but of course there are ways around that. Its always good to have though.

As in any business- its good to have USP- its good to have a brand which separates you from the competition. You need to be seen as the "only option". Do they refer to that as "Blue Ocean" strategy- creating your own market?

Just because you can copywrite, doesn't mean you can brand, doesn't mean you can get people to a website... It all comes down to marketing your abilities as a copywriter and just because your a copywriter doesnt mean you can market well.