Embedded Commands

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by bf68

Here's a thought - maybe the power in language patterns lies not in embedded commands and other language patterns for the sake of language patterns but in awareness of state and how to elicit the appropriate one in the reader/prospect...

Without feedback, we don't know what state the prospect is in now. That makes things a little difficult. The solution, as I see it, is to directly elicit a known state early in your copy - and then progress from that state to the desired one.

One of the things I'm sort of gradually coalescing in my mind is the idea that perhaps the best such state to elicit is anger. Make the prospect angry at all those other people who have cheated them and ripped them off and not delivered, then step alongside them and say "I am just like you."

Look at them. See them? We hate them. Both of us, me and you. We hate those people. We're angry at those people. We want to hurt those people. Now come along and let me show you how...

This is an inchoative idea, and certainly not fully realised. But I think it may be a good start to a working philosophy.

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by Nathan Segal

I'm not extremely well versed in embedded commands, but if you want to learn more about them and how they work, I recommend getting the book, "Web Copy That Sells," by Maria Veloso. You'll learn a lot about the psychology there.

Nathan

I have a video up of me tearing up her book.

She uses NLP badly to manipulate people.

Save your money.

Learn it for free on my blog. NLP Copywriting

Peace

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by bf68

@nathan - heheh... you mention Maria on a thread with Harlan? Oh no you didn't...

Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

Just say no to sucky NLP.

[CopyMonster]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Without feedback, we don't know what state the prospect is in now. That makes things a little difficult. The solution, as I see it, is to directly elicit a known state early in your copy - and then progress from that state to the desired one.

Yes, unfortunately no one has feedback as the reader goes through a sales piece. That's the nature of the beast if you will. However, if you recognise the states that support compliance, you can engineer them into your copy or at least try to.

One of the things I'm sort of gradually coalescing in my mind is the idea that perhaps the best such state to elicit is anger. Make the prospect angry at all those other people who have cheated them and ripped them off and not delivered, then step alongside them and say "I am just like you."

Look at them. See them? We hate them. Both of us, me and you. We hate those people. We're angry at those people. We want to hurt those people. Now come along and let me show you how...

This is an inchoative idea, and certainly not fully realised. But I think it may be a good start to a working philosophy.

The gooroos like Frank Kern, Eben Pagan and Dan Kennedy have talked about the Us/Them frame. So has Blair Warren and if I recall correctly, so has the king warrior himself, Allen Says. It's powerful stuff.

[nontemplates]

Originally Posted by Paul Hancox

I cover them in Video #7 but you're better off NOT using them if you don't use them properly.

Well judging by you headline claim it should be easy to prove the proposition. Show me an example of the proper use of embedded commands and by your headlines I will be compelled to buy or give you my email address.

I'm assuming you didn't use any in that copy

I'm going with Raydal. All the examples I have seen here is nothing more than assuming the sale a sales technique as old (and older) than Ziglar or merely persuasion that is far from a command and not really hidden at all. Its not that there are not any good techniques to be learned from this its just that those who push it go too far in their claims. You commonly read about being able to " get people to do whatever it is you want them to do" and "force or compell minds"

Jedi mind tricks I suppose work with some weak brained people but I'm more in the line of Jabba The Hut (though not nearly as wide). When I see things like this in sales I wonder two things

A) why is your product so weak you have to resort to this

and

B) why should I trust any company or person that even tries to force my (alleged) subconscious mind just to get to empty out my wallet?

[nontemplates]

Originally Posted by Paul Hancox

Actually, I did do a split test a while back, when I first learned some of these techniques: one version using NLP techniques (including embedded commands) and one without, and the one WITH converted just over a third better.

one sample is not very convincing especially since just using the techniques will create a change in style and the change in style might have far more to do with the difference than the commands themselves. Lets face it. IF this were anywhere near a scientific fact then sales copy utilizing embedded commands would have closing rates that are off the charts -50% or higher and it wouldn't matter what the product or service was. At best the power of this is being way over rated.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by nontemplates

You commonly read about being able to " get people to do whatever it is you want them to do" and "force or compell minds"

You also commonly read about people seeing Elvis in the mall. That may be a ludicrous claim, but it doesn't mean there was no Elvis.

NLP in copy doesn't force or compel anything. The myths about NLP are more or less the same as the myths about hypnosis - and, like hypnosis (the two are closely related), NLP generally can't make people do things they don't want to do.

[Paul Hancox]

Originally Posted by nontemplates

Well judging by you headline claim it should be easy to prove the proposition. Show me an example of the proper use of embedded commands and by your headlines I will be compelled to buy or give you my email address.

I'm assuming you didn't use any in that copy

Well, I'm split testing at the moment so I don't know exactly which headline or copy you saw, but I don't think I used any in that squeeze page.

The use of embedded commands requires a certain CONTEXT, which I don't have on a squeeze page.

When I see things like this in sales I wonder two things

A) why is your product so weak you have to resort to this

and

B) why should I trust any company or person that even tries to force my (alleged) subconscious mind just to get to empty out my wallet?

If you SEE them in a sales letter, then they're not embedded in the first place. That's the point.

It took me TWO readings before I consciously spotted some of the stuff DeAngelo was using, for example.

Besides, most people have never even heard of embedded commands, let alone have an idea of how they work.

I used to have people tell me that they couldn't see why salespeople use all those tactics to "force" the customer to buy today, those evil, bad salespeople.

Well, we used them because they worked... I could convert 40% of my appointments into sales THE SAME DAY, and most of those customer were actually happy they did.

The point is, a copywriter is ALWAYS appealing to the deeper desires and motivations of the prospective customer, at a so-called "subconscious" level.

It's why advertisers have a sexy model next to the car. What has a model got to do with a car? Nothing... except that a person might buy a car for sex appeal, to appear more attractive to the opposite sex.

And yes, this is a subconscious thing because the advertiser isn't always spelling out, "Hey, buy this car and you'll be more attractive to the opposite sex"... it's not a USP in the traditional sense... it's happening on a deeper, more "subconscious" (or whatever word you prefer) level.

Or think about certain WORDS that copywriters use. For example: Easy, simple, instant. They work because they have connotations at a deeper level of the mind.

Embedded commands are similar, in that respect. We tell them to "buy now", anyway... do we not? So we command them, even on the surface level. "Buy Now!" "Order Today!"

But as I have said, embedded commands are only a small part of a bigger framework. They are not a MAGIC BULLET.

It's like, think of ANY copywriting technique. Will that technique work, on its own? Of course not.

Good copywriters appeal to the readers "subconscious mind" (or whatever you think is closest to that concept) all the time.

[Paul Hancox]

Hey Harlan

Originally Posted by Harlan

To my knowledge, Eben does not use them in print.

I did a complete analysis of several of his sales letters, and he definitely uses them - but naturally they're hard to find because he truly embeds them. They're hard to spot.

Consider this paragraph from his sales letter for Mastery With Women And Dating. To me, it's genius:

If you're experiencing any of these things now, it means you've come along way.

You're really starting to "get it".

In other words, just to get to the point where you COULD have these feelings and situations come up, you had to do a LOT of work.

Sometimes it's hard to take a "step back", and realize JUST HOW FAR YOU'VE COME... and you've come a long way.

Now I want to help you take your game to the next level...

I want to help you knock this stuff out once and for all.

Unfortunately, I can't find this sales letter online at the moment, but this was part of the copy for that product.

Just this small section alone arguably contains up to FIVE embedded commands. I say "arguably" because the whole point of them being embedded in print is they're hard to spot.

Here are where I think he's using them (in bold), with other clever ambiguities or suggestions underlined:

If you're experiencing any of these things now, it means you've come along way.

You're really starting to "get it".

In other words, just to get to the point where you COULD have these feelings and situations come up, you had to do a LOT of work.

Sometimes it's hard to take a "step back", and realize JUST HOW FAR YOU'VE COME... and you've come a long way.

Now I want to help you take your game to the next level...

I want to help you knock this stuff out once and for all.

True, they are not "marked out" in the traditional sense, because it's harder to do in print... but the phrases in bold could be seen as embedded commands.

That's the point. If they're easy to spot, they're not "embedded". If they're not easy to spot, it could be argued they're not embedded commands. A Catch 22 situation, except they're there anyway.

I am suggesting they ARE embedded commands, and he's done an excellent job of making them blend in naturally.

Besides, look at the ambiguity "come along way" versus "come a long way". I only spotted that on a second reading! Very clever.

< !!! Warning: Adult Paragraph To Follow >

Also, "knock this stuff out once and for all". What might a guy, who ISN'T getting his fair share of "mastery with women and dating", be doing instead? A very clever and very subliminal suggestion to STOP THAT! (Especially in the context of coming a long way...)

< / End Of Adult Paragraph >

So David DeAngelo (Eben Pagan) is definitely using embedded commands, suggestions, ambiguity and other things to implant thoughts and suggestions into his reader's minds.

If not, he wouldn't be using "come along" and "come a long" differently... except that come along is an invitation. That is DEFINITELY not a slip of the keyboard

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Paul Hancox

This paragraph arguably contains up to FIVE embedded commands.

Looks to me like you only caught the first half!

Six:

"In other words, just to get to the point where..."

Seven:

"...you had to do a LOT of work."

Eight:

"realize JUST HOW FAR YOU'VE COME... and you've come a long way."

Nine:

"Now I want to help you take your game to the next level..."

Ten:

"I want to help you knock this stuff out once and for all."

The final one is completed in your head. If you're thinking about how you do all sorts of counterproductive stuff, you want to knock it off or cut it out. If you're thinking about how you want to do productive stuff, you fill in the baseball metaphor knock it out of the park. The ambiguity keys into either state. Whether the prospect is engaged in negative or positive self-talk, it speaks to that scenario. I admire things like that.

On the last two, I'm applying something I've noticed, but I'm not sure it's universal. When you say the word "I," people tend to tune you out. "He's talking about himself. I don't care." Then you say the word "you," and they hurriedly tune back in. "Me? I care about me!" It's like hitting the mute button on the TV.

So you can emphasise a command by turning the volume down - say "I" - and then turning the volume back up for the command by saying "you." The pattern goes like this:

"I blah blah blah you DO THIS blah blah blah."

I'm wondering if this is actually something very, very important about understanding reader attention.

[Paul Hancox]

Hey Caliban

I revise my original statement... "I did a partially complete analysis of several of his sales letters"...

Mind you, his sales letters are pretty long (have you seen his bullet points?), so hopefully I can be forgiven for missing some of the stuff

What he's also doing (not so much on an NLP level, but certainly on a psychological level) is he's basically saying,

You've come this far already. Now reach the finish.

That's powerful stuff. They're already PART of the "program".

Originally Posted by CDarklock

"In other words, just to get to the point where..."
"...you had to do a LOT of work."
"realize JUST HOW FAR YOU'VE COME... and you've come a long way."
"Now I want to help you take your game to the next level..."
"I want to help you knock this stuff out once and for all."

Yeah... them too

The final one is completed in your head. If you're thinking about how you do all sorts of counterproductive stuff, you want to knock it off or cut it out. If you're thinking about how you want to do productive stuff, you fill in the baseball metaphor knock it out of the park. The ambiguity keys into either state. Whether the prospect is engaged in negative or positive self-talk, it speaks to that scenario. I admire things like that.

Brilliant. And that fits in perfectly with "take your game to the next level". Obviously, he's referring to the dating game, but the game metaphor is then connected to knocking it out of the park, as it were.

On the last two, I'm applying something I've noticed, but I'm not sure it's universal. When you say the word "I," people tend to tune you out. "He's talking about himself. I don't care." Then you say the word "you," and they hurriedly tune back in. "Me? I care about me!" It's like hitting the mute button on the TV.

So you can emphasise a command by turning the volume down - say "I" - and then turning the volume back up for the command by saying "you." The pattern goes like this:

"I blah blah blah you DO THIS blah blah blah."

I'm wondering if this is actually something very, very important about understanding reader attention.

Yes, I like to switch between "I" and "You" for various reasons, or if I don't want to associate something with either myself or them, "A person can..."

When a person can REALLY do that... they find it much easier to embed commands and suggestions.

I think what most people don't get just yet, is that one simple embedded command like that is not going to do much, in and by itself.

For example, salespeople know they need to get "Yes!" from the customer all through their presentation. I'd usually make sure the customer said "Yes!" to me as many as 20 or 30 times, to get them in a "Yes!" frame of mind.

It's the same with embedded commands. One "Yes!" does not make a sale. 20 or 30 "Yes!" does not make a sale either... but it puts them in a frame of mind to say "Yes!" to my request for the order.

It seems few really "get this"...

[firegold21]

The way I've always looked at embedded commands is like priming, in psychological terms. I'm assuming most of you have read Blink, by Malcolm Gladwell. In it, he talks about the Implicit Association Test (iirc, that's what it's called) and how it shows unconscious bias. He then goes on to say that reading a set of priming sentences can (temporarily) change your unconscious bias.

For example, if you have a slight unconscious bias against blacks and for whites, if you read a series of sentences that associate 1) black with good and/or 2) white with bad, then retake the test, you'll now have a different unconscious bias: either neutral or slightly *for* blacks and *against* whites. And the priming sentences can be stuff like, "The dark night sky was beautiful," or "He squinted against the harsh bright glare from the spotlight."

No obvious relation to white or black, yet it still works to prime the unconscious.

And, like Paul said, using only one embedded command or priming phrase isn't going to cut it. Especially since a lot of people skim, which means they might just not see that sentence. So the more you have, the more chances of scoring a "hit." And the more hits, the more influence. And the more influence, the more sales.

Joshua

[nontemplates]

Originally Posted by Paul Hancox

The point is, a copywriter is ALWAYS appealing to the deeper desires and motivations of the prospective customer, at a so-called "subconscious" level.

It's why advertisers have a sexy model next to the car. What has a model got to do with a car? Nothing... except that a person might buy a car for sex appeal, to appear more attractive to the opposite sex.

And yes, this is a subconscious thing because the advertiser isn't always spelling out,

Agreed. Words and images have all kinds of connotations and suggestions. I wasn't at all objecting to that. I only object to the idea that is often expressed along with these techniques - that you can FORCE a reader to do what you want with words. I find that to be an over statement. Can you hit triggers that bring out the desires and motivations of the prospective customer? Of course. Totally agree.

[CopyMonster]

Who cares about embedded commands when you have this:

(warning - content may offend)

Selling cars

Talk about pushing hot buttons and call to action!

[AlanCarr]

Bluntly, peering deeply into someone else's copy and declaring you can see some mysterious pattern... well it reminds me of how we "see" faces in curtain patterns or the moon.

You're seeing what you're looking for. A good copy writer, who knows people skim and read while barely conscious as the default, no tricks involved, just grabs the prospect and gets them to part with money. You don't need to embed anything except trust, value and a sense of urgency.

It works like magic, looks like magic but it's not. Hire a good copywriter that understands your customers, not one you don't understand.

Me, I just find these threads funny.


AC

Here's the fun bit...

Bluntly, peering deeply into someone else's copy and declaring you can see some mysterious pattern... well it reminds me of how we "see" faces in curtain patterns or the moon.

You're seeing what you're looking for. A good copy writer, who knows people skim and read while barely conscious as the default, no tricks involved, just grabs the prospect and gets them to part with money. You don't need to embed anything except trust, value and a sense of urgency.

It works like magic, looks like magic but it's not. Hire a good copywriter that understands your customers, not one you don't understand.

Me, I just find these threads funny.


Did you spot those hidden commands?

Well done, because I didn't write them, I looked for them AFTER writing it. Case closed.




AC

[AlanCarr]

By the way, for more on this stuff, try reading "The Bible Codes". It's a great example of finding "meaning" in any lump of text because you're looking for it.


AC

[AlanCarr]

Oh heck, let's play again...

Bluntly, peering deeply into someone else's copy and declaring you can see some mysterious pattern... well it reminds me of how we "see" faces in curtain patterns or the moon.

You're seeing what you're looking for. A good copy writer, who knows people skim and read while barely conscious as the default, no tricks involved, just grabs the prospect and gets them to part with money. You don't need to embed anything except trust, value and a sense of urgency.

It works like magic, looks like magic but it's not. Hire a good copywriter that understands your customers, not one you don't understand.

Me, I just find these threads funny.



Geddit?

No, I didn't prime em with commas or anything else but you get the idea. Don't go "finding" stuff in other people's copy.


B.

[firegold21]

Not that it really matters, but for those who doubt embedded commands work at all, check out Training Trances by John Overdurf and Julie Silverthorn. It's more about conversational hypnosis than anything else, *but* it does have a good demonstration of embedding that works.

How do I know it works? It worked on me.

That said, even that isn't going to work on everyone. There will be people who are receptive to the suggestion, perhaps due to establishing rapport, perhaps due to being naturally highly suggestible, whatever; and there will be people that are less receptive. Those who are receptive will likely follow the suggestion, while those who are not receptive probably won't.

Bigsofty is right about one thing, though ... when analyzing someone else's copy for embedded commands, it's easy to fall into the trap of seeing meaning where there isn't. That's because we humans are meaning-finding beings. It's what we do.

Joshua

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Bigsofty

Did you spot those hidden commands?

Do you understand what a "command" is?

MYSTERIOUS PATTERN! Right now!

That sentence no verb.

[AlanCarr]

Well I know what the word 'command' means but my point was spotting 'hidden meaning' in someone else's words. I had a girlfriend like that too..

I'm sure Harlan will be the first to tell you NLP is not about bending other's will, it's about self-improvement first, THEN you can consider using it for the good of others.

Representing NLP as a way of brainwashing people into buying, especially by text, is a gross simplification of a complex subject.

ALL copywriting involves squeezing an action out of the reader but playing with NLP without a solid grounding in it is not going to work for you. You said yourself, one vid on Harlan's site just rocked your world, so please, don't try and be an expert on it.

Or on copywriting.



B.

[AlanCarr]

Sorry, that was a bit harsh.. Look at it like this, don't you get an urge to grab peeps by the collar and give them a good shake when they try to give legal advice? If it's not a forum for lawyers, wrong place to ask.

Same kind of thing for NLP. You're not going to learn it from a forum; likewise trying to teach or advise on a forum is plain silly. Harlan's already told you, embedded commands do not work in text, end of story.

Copywriting is about the stuff that does work. There ya go.



B.

[Jay Truman]

Originally Posted by Paul Hancox

Ross Jeffries is probably where Eben Pagan (David DeAngelo) learned some of the NLP stuff he uses in his copy.

Eben was a student of Ross Jeffreies.

According to wikipedia.
David DeAngelo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Bigsofty

Representing NLP as a way of brainwashing people into buying, especially by text, is a gross simplification of a complex subject.

sure is.. I'd consider effective copywriters/salesmen brain washers/manipulators. NLP and hypnosis can be helpful in manipulating.

[mariner7]

Marking out certain things in a sales letter is useful, but I think it is more useful for people who skim the letter.

As they are scrolling down, their subconscious will pick up on the sub headings and parts of the text that are highlighted.

Here is an example:
But if you can suspend your disbelief for a moment -- you're about to learn the most amazing health secret anyone could ever possess.

It is a minor thing really when you consider that the only reason anyone will buy anything from you is if you have what they want.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Bigsofty

Harlan's already told you, embedded commands do not work in text, end of story.

Actually, let's go to video 21 of his 30-day course:

"The concept of embedded commands works real well when you are using audio; when you are using video; does not work real well when you're doing it in print - and when you do it, do it with elegance."

Notice that he doesn't say it doesn't work, but that it doesn't work real well. That's subtly different.

And do you know why I really like Harlan Kilstein?

Because he agrees with me!

I have a lot of ideas and opinions that I don't trot out in public very much, because they're new and radical and weird. If I can't point to at least one authority who shores up that idea or opinion, I tend to keep it to myself... because people tend to say "you have no right to think that."

So I just kind of sit on these things until I can point to somebody that does have a right to think it. You can certainly gripe that I'm no NLP expert, but it's kind of hard to say Harlan's not.

All the same, "guttering" your copy is something I've never seen anyone of any real authority discuss, so I'm going to keep that one on the down-low for a while. Maybe it's not discussed because it's stupid and doesn't work. On the other hand, maybe I've actually discovered something really cool. Jury's still out.

[Ron Herman]

Actually, I think NLP needs to be demystified a bit before attempting to use it in copy. The original basis of NLP was modeling. Basically, the early pioneers of NLP took successful persons as examples to model. As the most successful individuals in any field are modeled universal patterns emerged. If you want to write killer copy, the best way to use NLP for copywriting is to model the best copywriters.

As Harlan has said, embedded commands and other NLP tactics are difficult to pull off in written copy; video copy is a better medium. If you want to see a really good example of compelling video copy with lots of killer NLP tactics being employed watch any of Frank Kern's sales videos.

[Intrepreneur]

I like this thread.. that post I thanked up there rocks.. it makes total sense :-)

[keystothemind]

Yes, Thanks for all the wonderful replies everyone, a lot of food for thought here!

[Harlan]

Frank Kern and NLP:

Frank knows a few basic NLP Patterns including Pattern Interrupts and Presuppositions.

And of the forms of presuppositions, he knows two or three.

BUT... he does them elegantly, brilliantly, and pulls them off.

At Mass Control, Frank got up and used these patterns on the entire crowd.

Did they work? Incredibly so.

And just to show the effectiveness, Frank told the crowd what he did and then...

He did it again.

Frank uses some embedded commands but remember, he's using this in video - not in print.

He is the ninja-king of NLP in video.

Someone once asked Gary Halbert if he used NLP - he said no; he never heard of NLP. He wrote about a paragraph explaining how he didn't use it.

The person took Gary's answer and went through it and pulled out words to imply Gary was actually using NLP - even though he said he wasn't.

As I recall, Gary used some colorful language and told the guy to perform a physical impossibility.

By the same token, going after Eben's copy looking for embedded commands is a joke.

1. Eben doesn't do the copy himself- he goes over it afterward. Eben has an in house copywriter.

2. Ross Jeffries was certainly one of his early teachers but Ross's use of embedded commands was on the level of the inelegant "below me"... if you get the drift. Ross did not do his stuff in print.

Great discussion.

Peace.

[CopyMonster]

Originally Posted by Harlan

But in print, embedded commands don't work very well at all.

Interesting comment Harlan, this seems different to what's presented in your sales letter for NLP Copywriting 1 course.

"One of my first copywriting jobs (which had to be down overnight) was so artfully loaded with invisible language patterns it converted at 9% to stunned clients. It simultaneously employed nested loops, therapeutic metaphor, shifting referential index, embedded commands, connecting strategies, temporal shifts (altering perceptions of time) and emotional shifts. And the letter is still converting profitably four years later."

"how to embed commands in print so no one ever picks up on them - even if they know NLP."

So has your position changed?

Originally Posted by Bigsofty

Representing NLP as a way of brainwashing people into buying, especially by text, is a gross simplification of a complex subject.

And how long did it take you to come up with this distortion? Now I could be wrong but the question is with embedded commands not NLP. Sounds like some 'mass debating' going on here with this statement, taking something and overgeneralizing it...

Interestingly your demonstration above about 'seeing what you want to see' with the bolding had more impact than the plain jane non-bolded version of the same words. Whether you call that embedded commands or emphasis, the experience WAS different because of the attention drawn to specific words. There was an added excitement to the presentation. How do you hide bolded embedded commands? Could it be as simple as also bolding text not recognized as commands? The art of hiding out in the open.


... In any case, the whole point about copywriting and in fact any communication is it's ALL about influence, isn't it? When you think about it, any communication has at it's heart the aim of influence. When you say "hello, how are you?" whether you're trying to get someone's attention or trying to communicate a level of empathy, it doesn't matter, we're talking influence at some level. The question is - in what ways can you do it most effectively? Whether you're a copywriter, sales professional, you're goal is always to find the most effective way to influence in each particular context.

Communication always works, the question is "Is it working how you want it to? Are you getting the results you want?"

Interesting discussion.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by bf68

So has your position changed?

I suspect he has a new approach, which differs in critical ways from the "normal" use of embedded commands in text. I'm watching him rather closely, because I have some half-arsed ideas about this myself.

[Jay Truman]

Originally Posted by bf68

So has your position changed?

Interested to know why/if his position changed on the subject.

Here, Harlan explains "Why People Think NLP In Print Doesn't Work" and how embedded commands are "Going to Blow Your Response Through the Roof".

NLP Pattern #2 Embedded Commands

[Paul Hancox]

Originally Posted by Bigsofty

Bluntly, peering deeply into someone else's copy and declaring you can see some mysterious pattern... well it reminds me of how we "see" faces in curtain patterns or the moon.

You're seeing what you're looking for. A good copy writer, who knows people skim and read while barely conscious as the default, no tricks involved, just grabs the prospect and gets them to part with money. You don't need to embed anything except trust, value and a sense of urgency.

It works like magic, looks like magic but it's not. Hire a good copywriter that understands your customers, not one you don't understand.

Me, I just find these threads funny.

Did you spot those hidden commands?

Well done, because I didn't write them, I looked for them AFTER writing it. Case closed.

No, I didn't spot any embedded commands. Except maybe one.

I saw one presupposition: "Bluntly" - not an embedded command.

I saw some suggestions, "what you're looking for. A good copy writer" could be viewed as an embedded suggestion.

"Hire a good copywriter" is just a command, like "Buy Now". It's not embedded.

The only one that might be considered an embedded command is "part with money", but probably wouldn't be at all effective in the larger context of your post.

So no, I didn't really spot any embedded commands.

Just out of interest, how are...

"not one you don't understand me"

... even anywhere close to an embedded command?

You're right in that, maybe we're seeing more into it, but David DeAngelo is very familiar with embedded commands - and certainly, he understands ambiguity: "come along way" versus "come a long way".

That was no slip of the quill ... whether he wrote it himself, or some other copywriter.

[Paul Hancox]

I do agree with Harlan that it's difficult to pull off in print.

But it's certainly not impossible. It's just difficult.

Building a house is difficult. To me. Yet house builders do it every day.

For example, there's a bit of his book in Persuasion Engineering where Richard Bandler uses commands, suggestions and anchoring to get the reader to taste the taste of dental mouthwash.

It worked on me. And I know how this stuff works!

Of course, Bandler was just making a point.

It's funny how, some in this thread seem to think embedded commands are (a) ineffective, and (b) brainwashing, both at the same time.

Well, which is it?

If they're ineffective, they're hardly brainwashing... and if they're brainwashing, then they're effective, by definition!

Ask someone on the street, and the average person probably thinks the standard techniques we copywriters use are manipulative!

It's all relative, is it not.

Words are just words. And yet words move nations to war, or people to fall in love with us, or to buy our products.

Copywriters manipulate the readers, by definition.

(If that word has a negative connotation to you, it kind of proves the power of words.)

Copywriters don't say to the reader, "Hey... make sure you evaluate ALL the products in the market... the one I'm promoting here now might NOT be the best one for you. In fact, here's the link to my competitor..."

Doh! I don't know of many copywriters that do that.

No, copywriters are propagandists for the product they are pitching.

(Just like, in the event of a war, you're probably going to support YOUR country, rather than "the enemy".)

Especially if you're a freelance copywriter. Think about it.

Do you turn down clients because you don't think they're the BEST on the market? I'd admire you if you did, but I imagine most copywriters will just get their head down, and STILL write as if it were the best product.

That's their job. They're propagandists, in a sense.

That's why I prefer to create my own products. At least then, I can make sure the products line up with the claims I make for them

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Paul Hancox

Copywriters manipulate the readers, by definition.

All communication is manipulation. Its entire purpose is to make you think what I want you to think. Even the single word "elephant" is designed to make you think of an elephant. It even gets the point across in Spanish (elefante) and German (Elefant).

Of course, the Chinese say 大象, so they haven't a clue what you're talking about. So you can't manipulate them unless they also speak English, or in this case German or French... or unless you show them a picture. A picture of an elephant will make them think of an elephant. It communicates.

Are you thinking of an elephant? Heh heh heh, I'm so slick. Look at this:

"Even the single word "elephant" is designed to make you think of an elephant."

I emphasised that embedded command with the word "you" instead of other types of emphasis! See! I'm right! I'm...

Okay, it's not an embedded command at all. It might have been. It fits the pattern. But you know as well as I do that the effect of an embedded command is miniscule, it's minor, and doesn't compare at all to the simple technique of saying the word "elephant." All the embedded commands on the planet will not have as much manipulative effect as saying the word "elephant," and they'll take a lot longer. Indeed, it's even faster to just show a picture. You can barely measure how quickly a picture can make you think of an elephant. We're talking microseconds, here.

So if you want to tell your customer something, the easiest way is to just come right out and say it. And show them a picture, if you can. Embedded commands are best for sales messages, because people hate to be sold. You have to hide the sales message, if you use one. People simply don't like them, and the cultural association of "sales" with "dishonesty" is way too strong to fight.

[Harlan]

I do teach embedded commands in print.

However, they are radically different from anything that has appeared here or elsewhere.

Here's my most recent copy. It's pulling like crazy. Can you spot the patterns?

NLP Co-Founder Teaches Seminar With A Raging Fever And Accidentally Discovers Six-Step Process That Eliminates
Any Negative Behavior in Just 20 Minutes


From: Harlan Kilstein, NLP Expert and Personal Change Leader

The story became a legend in the annals of NLP history. John Grinder was set to teach a seminar when he woke up with a raging fever. The seminar could not be postponed. In the tradition of showmen everywhere, "The show must go on."

Grinder taught that day in a completely altered state and went to sleep. When he awoke the next morning, he was stunned to see notes on the board he had written the day before. He knew he had written them but he didn't have any conscious awareness of them.

Those notes became part of NLP history and became known as the Six-Step Reframe Process. Over the years, it became known as one of the most powerful tools for personal change.

What Is NLP and How Can It Change Your Life?

NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) was the brainchild of Dr. John Grinder, a college professor of linguistics, and Richard Bandler, a computer programming students. When they teamed up, they began to model the world's most effective therapists to determine the best (and fastest) ways of helping people change.

Their tongue-twister of a name came from:

neuro - behavior comes from the brain,

linguistic - people reveal their thinking through language and

programming - most people patterns have been programmed into them over time.

Bandler and Grinder developed patterns than stunned the therapeutic world. They invented a pattern that cured the most resistant phobias in under five minutes. Even though neither had a background in therapy, they were teaching standing room audiences of therapists around the world.

One of their most famous students was Tony Robbins who based his entire career on the teachings of NLP.

The Six-Step Reframe Process
Even though he taught in a raging fever, Grinder uncovered a simple six-step process that let people eliminate negative behaviors. Over the years, the six-step reframe process has been used by therapists all over the globe to rapidly change negative behaviors including:

Weight Issues (For people who can't lose weight with normal diet and exercise)
Smoking (For people who both want to quit but don't want to give up smoking)
Alcohol (For people who know they are destroying their families but can't give up alcohol)
Sexual Dysfunction Issues
Failure To Succeed in School or in Business
And many many more issues.

In fact, Grinder went on to state that he never found a problem that did not respond to the six-step reframe process.

Now Available On Video For The First Time Ever!

A number of years ago, I recorded a demonstration session of the Six-Step reframe process with Sara. (Sara was my demonstration subject on The Physiology of Excellence DVD.)

Unfortunately, my hard disk crashed and I thought the session was gone forever. However, in a stroke of luck, I discovered I had created a back up of that video and I've hurried to share it with you.

What you receive when you purchase is online access to the video. You'll get to see the the steps I used with Sara.

But that's not all...

You'll also get a word for word transcript of my session with Sara.

And even better...

At the end, I give you the exact six-step process you can use.

And you get all of this for the incredibly low price of $29.

Why So Low? What's The Catch?

There is a catch I want to tell you about up front. There is a minor hum to the audio. I could have spent a few thousand dollars cleaning it up (instead I purchased a better microphone.) And because of that hum, I decided the slash the price.

Does the hum affect your ability to listen to the program? Not in the least. Every word is absolutely clear.

But I want to explain why I'm not selling this program for my usual higher prices. In addition, you need high speed access to view it online. If you have a slow internet connection, this is not for you.

Introducing Hypnotic Reframing

Grinder combined the power of Hypnosis with the Six-Step Reframing Process in the book Trance-formations. Unfortunately, this book is out-of-print and due to a long dispute between Bandler and Grinder, this book will never be reprinted.

Do you need to know Hypnosis to use this process? Absolutely not. In the video, the only "hypnotic" instruction I give is "close your eyes."

Can you use this pattern on yourself? Yes. Just be familiar with the six-steps before you begin.

Prepare To Be Amazed!

You are just two minutes away from beginning to eliminate one of your most stubborn patterns.

When you process your payment, you will be asked to confirm your email address and then you will be sent your personal log-in credentials.

You will be able to return to the video time and again.

And if the video isn't everything I say it is, just ask me for a refund. I want you to be completely happy with your purchase.

So order with confidence. And prepare to be amazed by the changes in your life.

Peace,
Harlan Kilstein Ed.D. C.Ht. Certified Modeler of NLP

PS. Before you use this process on someone else, be sure to change one of your own stubborn patterns first. That way, you can help someone else in full confidence the six-step reframe process works.

PPS. Did you notice I didn't put a time-frame on the guarantee? That's because I believe in this process so much, I'll refund the money at any time - even ten years down the road. But I know that's never gonna happen...as soon as you discover how simple and how powerful this technique is.

[Paul Hancox]

Sounds like fun.

Originally Posted by Harlan

Even though he taught in a raging fever, Grinder uncovered a simple six-step process that let people eliminate negative behaviors. Over the years, the six-step reframe process has been used by therapists all over the globe to rapidly change negative behaviors including:

Well I didn't notice you actually marking out any embedded commands, but it could be argued there's a couple of suggestions or commands in this paragraph...

let people eliminate negative behaviors
to rapidly change negative behaviors

Weight Issues (For people who can't lose weight with normal diet and exercise)
Smoking (For people who both want to quit but don't want to give up smoking)
Alcohol (For people who know they are destroying their families but can't give up alcohol)
Sexual Dysfunction Issues
Failure To Succeed in School or in Business
And many many more issues.

Just as "don't think of a pink elephant" contains the embedded command "think of a pink elephant", the phrase

For people who both want to quit but don't want to give up smoking

... perhaps contains two, along with a clever ambiguity, "both want to quit", as in two people wanting to quit together. (Same with can't give up alcohol).

At the end, I give you the exact six-step process you can use.

And you get all of this for the incredibly low price of $29.

"you can use... and you get all of this". (command and suggestion)

Can you use this pattern on yourself? Yes. Just be familiar with the six-steps before you begin.

"... before you begin." (command, suggestion, presupposition)

When you process your payment, you will be asked to confirm your email address and then you will be sent your personal log-in credentials.

I'm not sure what "when you process your payment" means. Are you telling them to process the idea of beginning? Or to process the idea of making a payment?

PS. Before you use this process on someone else, be sure to change one of your own stubborn patterns first. That way, you can help someone else in full confidence the six-step reframe process works.

"Before you use this process..." ... "full confidence the six-step reframe process works." (suggestion, rather than command).

PPS. Did you notice I didn't put a time-frame on the guarantee? That's because I believe in this process so much, I'll refund the money at any time - even ten years down the road. But I know that's never gonna happen...as soon as you discover how simple and how powerful this technique is.

"because I believe in this process so much..." (command and/or suggestion)

Also, you use lots of presuppositional language, i.e. "What you receive when you purchase" (several presuppositions / suggestions), "before you use this process" (presupposing they're going to use this process), "as soon as you discover" (I'm going to discover it), "how simple... how powerful" (presupposing it's simple and powerful, it's just a question of how much).

There seems to be lots of embedded suggestions in here, to the subconscious mind - although since they're not marked out, I'd hesitate to call them embedded commands.

Anyway, great job with the copy. I can see why it's pulling "like crazy"

[keystothemind]

Hi Harlan.
I'v been on your mailing list for a long time, and have always been hugely impressed by the gripping and compelling nature of what you write, so thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts here.

[Harlan]

It's ended up being some of the highest converting copy I've written.

The use of pre-suppositions is where's it's at.

Ask Frank.

:-)

Peace.

[Paul Hancox]

Originally Posted by Harlan

It's ended up being some of the highest converting copy I've written.

The use of pre-suppositions is where's it's at.

Ask Frank.

:-)

Peace.

Excellent.

Yes, I think pre-suppositions trump embedded commands, because when effectively used (as in your example), they are automatically accepted as true by the reader's mind.

When a person starts to truly realize the power of presuppositions, I wonder how quickly they will find themselves wanting to put their knowledge to use.

[Harlan]

I just posted some more examples on my blog.

Warning, it's selling something so I won't post the link.

It's a warrior thing.

Okay, don't buy.

Please. Refrain from buying.

Even if you want to.

Try not to buy if you came via the Warrior Forum.

Don't want to get in trouble.

Again.

[Jo_Shua]

Originally Posted by Paul Hancox

When a person starts to truly realize the power of presuppositions, I wonder how quickly they will find themselves wanting to put their knowledge to use.

I believe I need to go back and restudy video number 5...