Books on indirect copywriting

[Snow_Predator]

Hey people

Just wanted to know if you know any good sources for indirect copywriting on the internet. There's a lot of stuff on how to make direct sales pages, but from what I hear, conversion rates from indirect information sites are MUCH higher.

Also, what's your opinion on direct versus indirect copywriting? I've read a few books on direct copywriting, such as the robert collier letter and web copy that sells. I'm itching to try out my own direct sales page (and improve my skill on that thenceforth), but not sure if I should waste my efforts since indirect marketing is so much more effective? What should I do?

Thanks in advance

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by Snow_Predator

Hey people

Just wanted to know if you know any good sources for indirect copywriting on the internet. There's a lot of stuff on how to make direct sales pages, but from what I hear, conversion rates from indirect information sites are MUCH higher.

Also, what's your opinion on direct versus indirect copywriting? I've read a few books on direct copywriting, such as the robert collier letter and web copy that sells. I'm itching to try out my own direct sales page (and improve my skill on that thenceforth), but not sure if I should waste my efforts since indirect marketing is so much more effective? What should I do?

Thanks in advance

Not sure what you mean from direct vs. indirect marketing. Do you mean direct response type of marketing where you ask the reader to take some type of action?

I've gotten conversion rates as high as 75% for an upsell using direct response sales copy. I've never seen indirect anything do better than that.

[Kay King]

How you approach the copywriting often depends on your niche. If you can write well, you can do either indirect or direct marketing. If you don't write well, neither will be effective.

kay

[ghyphena]

By "indirect" do you mean a more implicit style of selling?

I'm only asking because I haven't really heard the term before in this context.... in my book, the opposite of "direct" marketing was "brand" marketing... which would be indirect selling in a way as the purchase isn't linked with the ad.

If I had to venture a guess, I'd say you're talking about direct response copy that's less in-your-face, less hyped-up than some of the superlative-fueled sales letters you find on the internet - in which case any of the classics would serve you well (there's a sticky at the top of Copywriting).

If you want to go further than that, implicit-selling-wise, I wholeheartedly recommend Harlan Kilstein's NLP Copywriting.

Gil-Ad

PS - is there something I've completely missed re: indirect marketing? If anyone could enlighten me please :-)

[Ross Bowring]

You can study Harlan Kilstein's NLP copywriting products.

You can study the maglogs of Gary Bencivenga, there's examples throughout.

You can buy a couple of Joe Vitale's copywriting books, he gives some decent examples.

Also, study more advertorial style letters. By their nature they need to be more covert in getting across their sales message.

Hope this helps.

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by Snow_Predator

Just wanted to know if you know any good sources for indirect copywriting on the internet.

Let's be honest (especially now that it turns out I'm not the only one who didn't quite know!): it's going to help many people to answer if you'll clarify what you mean by "indirect copywriting".

My guess was that you mean writing "pre-selling material" rather than "selling material"; but others above obviously didn't think so, so I was probably wrong?

[Ashley Gable]

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

My guess was that you mean writing "pre-selling material" rather than "selling material"; but others above obviously didn't think so, so I was probably wrong?

This is what I thought as well.

In the steps they take to get to your site, you will be "selling" them. With copy style articles, maybe a few testimonials ect? So they dont feel like they are being sold but rather just "surfing" around. All the while they are slowly being given the info they need to see what you have is what they want.

I seems you want to know how to sell something without selling. I dont know, I am not a pro copywriter. So I wouldnt know how to do it!

Would like to see some good suggestions as I am interested in it as well.


Ashley

[Dean Dhuli]

Snow,

Are you talking about advertorials by any chance?

In any case, you'll have to come out and tell us what exactly
you mean by "indirecting copywriting".

Without knowing that I don't think anybody can give a proper answer.


- Dean



p

[Scott Murdaugh]

My guess was that you mean writing "pre-selling material" rather than "selling material"; but others above obviously didn't think so, so I was probably wrong?

This is what I assumed as well...

If you're talking about pre-selling, yes, it can be extremely effective, but you still have to have strong direct response copy to send them to after you've warmed them up.

I don't know of any books that talk about this directly, but you can check out blogs or hop on email lists for some good examples of how other people are doing it.

-Scott

[LouisB]

If you're looking for NLP or hypnotic copywriting, I've been writing about it for 2 years on my blog. I'm currently doing a chapter by chapter review of Joe Vitale's "Hypnotic Writing."

See louisrburns dot com

There's also another copywriter that posts different NLP patterns you can pattern after immediately at:

nlplanguagepatterns.blogspot dot com

If that's what you were looking for and want more resources, let me know.

[Ken Strong]

Guess we'll wait for if and when the OP comes back to explain what they're talking about.

[Snow_Predator]

Hey folks, sorry for getting back to you all so late - I work a very busy job, which I'm trying to get out of with this whole IM thing.

Alexa Smith hit the nail on the head - I meant to say pre-selling. Forgive my pathetic use of terminology .

Whose the chap that got a 75% conversion rate with a direct sales page? o_O I thought it was common knowledge that direct sales pages usually have 1-2% conversion rates? Like the sales pages on Clickbank.

Would you folks advise I learn how to write direct sales pages, or should I work on pre-selling? Do the sales pages on Clickbank have a 1% conversion rate because they're all ****, or because this is what you normally expect with a sales page?

A few of you have mentioned the use of NLP. I have some training in hypnosis and know a few things about NLP, but never really thought it would work in writing - bolding and italics don't even come close to subtle changes in tone, pitch, volume, posture etc. I suppose you have the presuppositions etc... has anyone actually used NLP to great effect in copywriting?

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by Snow_Predator

A few of you have mentioned the use of NLP. I have some training in hypnosis and know a few things about NLP, but never really thought it would work in writing - bolding and italics don't even come close to subtle changes in tone, pitch, volume, posture etc. I suppose you have the presuppositions etc... has anyone actually used NLP to great effect in copywriting?

NLP in copywriting?

Why didn't I think of that?

Damm.

Peace.

Harlan

[colmodwyer]

Whose the chap that got a 75% conversion rate with a direct sales page?

Whose the chap that got a 75% conversion rate with an "indirect" sales page?

Maybe a few examples of what you're talking about might help?

Because as far as I can tell - still - no one really knows exactly what you're talking about (which means they can't help you)...

Colm

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by Snow_Predator

Whose the chap that got a 75% conversion rate with a direct sales page? o_O I thought it was common knowledge that direct sales pages usually have 1-2% conversion rates? Like the sales pages on Clickbank.

That chap would be me.

It was an upsell sales page for one of my info-products using a strong compelling offer and sales copy to targeted prospects that had already agreed to buy the initial product.

More importantly, that page asked for the order, just like the page before it. It was/is an non-IM niche and pulled 75% on the upsell for the first 2 years. After that, the response slowly dropped. Lately, it's been staying around 50%.

Would you folks advise I learn how to write direct sales pages, or should I work on pre-selling? Do the sales pages on Clickbank have a 1% conversion rate because they're all ****, or because this is what you normally expect with a sales page?

The internet average is 1-2% because there are so many more bad sales pages online than good or great ones.

If you learn to write direct response sales copy, then you can write any type of direct or indirect selling. If you learn to write sales copy, even if it's just at an above average skill level, then your chances of business success increase signficantly. Every top online marketer I've ever met or heard of is able to write good sales copy if they need to. Some of them like John Reese can write some smoking good copy when the mood strikes them.

If you ask the reader to take a specific action than it's direct response copy IMHO. Doesn't matter if it's a pre-sell, main product sell, squeeze page, upsell, or downsell... if you ask the reader to take a specific action than you are looking for a specific response (hence direct response).

Hope that helps,

Mike

[adulti]

Yes, i once read some free ebooks on presell, "make your content presell", you can get more from that website, go google it.

There are good tips and direction on writing online and preselling content.

Good luck!