Don't Want to Get Screwed When Hiring a Copywriter? Read this first...

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

You may be here on this forum looking for a copywriter, or you may be hiring a copywriter from one of the many freelance bidding sites scattered around the web, but there is one thing anyone who is hiring a copywriter has in common: They want to make sure they are getting quality work from a qualified, competent copywriter.

Here are 7 questions you should ask any copywriter
before you sign on the dotted line...

1. Ask them to tell you about a recent successful project. Any true copywriter is passionate about their work, and even more passionate about their successes. Ask for them to show you some recent work, and give you some metrics (stats) on how the copy performed.

A good copywriter will not only be able to provide at least 1-2 recent examples (consider recent within one year, as some copywriters take months to complete a project), but will be happy to talk with you about their latest successes.

Feel free to ask questions about the project(s), and ask for contact information from the client so you can talk with them if you wish.

2. Ask the copywriter if this is their full time occupation, or if they have another job outside of copywriting/IM. While some part time copywriters may be able to do a fantastic job with your copy, for the most part any experienced and successful copywriter will be writing copy full time. There are of course exceptions to that rule, but they are just that - exceptions.

Those who have not dedicated to it full time will have a reason. Either they aren't established enough yet, they don't get regular work as a copywriter, or their health benefits or something similar are keeping them in their regular job.

It is a personal decision whether you use a part-time or full-time copywriter, but keep in mind the hours you would like to be able to reach your writer, and the amount of time they can dedicate to the project if they have other daily obligations.

3. Ask the copywriter whether they will be taking on the project themselves, or having a subcontractor do it. This is important! You want to know who is writing your copy.

Yes, many high level copywriters outsource their work to their students, but this is often very different from the "outsourcing" you'll typically see. You may notice some writers (like myself) do have outsourcers they use to do some of their work.

In my business, outsourcers only handle research, editing, and proofreading for content work, and nothing to do with writing sales copy at all - but this isn't always the case. Ask your copywriter which services they outsource, and which services they do personally.

4. Ask to see your copywriter's blog. Honestly, frequency of posting and how recent the last post is isn't as important as the content.

Most copywriters won't have hours upon hours of time to spend writing a blog post every single day, but they should be passionate enough about their profession to write on marketing or copywriting once in awhile when the mood strikes. (Same goes for articles, if the copywriter doesn't have a blog.) This is also an excellent way to see if the copywriter's "voice" meets your expectations and resonates with you.

5. Ask if they have worked for any real world ("offline") businesses.

Corporate websites are OK, as is catalog work. Even content work counts. Whether the copy is online or offline doesn't matter, either. It is whether or not they've reached outside of the freelance sites and IM forums to market their services that counts here.

In a way, this will show you how serious they are in their marketing. If they have only ever worked for online ebook promoters and have never made that leap into working for other types of businesses, this may be an indicator that either their careers are underdeveloped OR they're not as dedicated to a career in copywriting (and therefore to your project) as they should be.

There are exceptions to this as well (I know there are Warriors here who have never reached outside of this forum for work, they've never had to!) but be aware, these are exceptions. Most copywriters will, at one point or another, get a referral or find a client that is outside of the typical forum/bidding site circle.

6. Are they available by phone? Another big credibility indicator. If they have invested in a business phone line, or are willing to put their real life contact information out there, chances are they are serious.

You don't even have to actually call them if you're uncomfortable (although that does help). But having a published phone number and even mailing address (even if it is just a PO Box) shows a serious investment and commitment to business that a website and email address just can't match.

7. Last, do they fit your budget? I know this is a real concern for many of you, so it had to be on the list. It should not be your primary deciding factor, however. In fact, your best bet is probably to find a copywriter that you like that you think MAY be in your budget.

The worst case scenario would be, you find out after speaking with them that they meet all of your criteria and you get along well, but you can't afford their services.

Not a big deal! Most copywriters who meet the criteria above will be able to refer you to a reputable colleague who meets your budgetary requirements. Of course, do your due diligence with them as well - but if they're recommended by someone you already like and trust, chances are you're probably safe.

Now, there are exceptions to all of these of course. I know many warrior copywriters on here who don't publicize their phone numbers, but create million dollar sales letters. Use your best judgement when asking these questions, but they should give you a great start in finding the right copywriter for you!

- Cherilyn

[ildarius]

Hey Cherilyn

Was wondering what else I could ask you, will email you those questions right away

[zapseo]

Oh, some other USEFUL questions:

1. How much information do you need from me?
2. When can I expect this?
3. Who owns the copyright, and how does that get transferred?
4. When do I pay you and how?
5. What else do I need to do to make sure this project is successful?
(It isn't just about copy.)
6. What format will you be giving me the copy in?
7. What is your re-write policy?
8. What if I'm not happy with the copy?
9. What does your offer include (a ready-to-go webpage with paypal button for instance -- uh, not generally! But I think many people think that.)
10. Question to yourself: can I work with this person, will I enjoy working with this person. An enjoyable project stands a better chance (other things equal) of being successful than one where the participants have a poor working relationship.
11. How often will you update me?
12. What do you need from me? (I frequently tell people this -- especially when they tell me they absolutely must have it done in some short-term -- and then become difficult or impossible to get in touch with.)
13. Question to self: What are you willing to do to really make this project successful.

Cherilyn, who I truly like, has onlly scratched the surface with her questions.

[Kay King]

Some of the questions above are good ones. Any copywriter should have a portfolio of work to show you and may also have testimonials. A copywriter who will openly discuss a recent client and how his business is going, etc - will do the same after writing for you.

Would you turn down a copywriter with fifteen years of experience writing online because he has no interest in writing for offline businesses? Then say so when you ask for quote.

5. What else do I need to do to make sure this project is successful?
(It isn't just about copy.)

You aren't hiring a tech or a consultant - but a writer. It's a good idea to ask for any ideas they might have but the writing is their "thing" - not the whole project's success. From his point of view - it is about copy.

Some of the questions are ones the buyer should be answering up front when they first ask for a quote.

When do you need it?
What format do you want it in?
What special features do you want included?
How do you propose to pay for the copy (1/2 up front - 1/2 at end?)

List what qualifies "not being happy with" the finished copy - and how many rewrites you expect...and what constitues a "rewrite".

Any time you hire a copywriter you should have the agreement in writing - even if in an email where you state what you expect and the writer replies and agrees to the terms.

The better you are able to describe what you want, how it will be used, what you expect to gain from it, your time constraints, etc - the better your quotes will be.

kay

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

Judy - great points! And all of those are important questions to ask a copywriter. I will say, that most of the questions in my "7 questions" list were chosen because they were "make or break" points in working with a copywriter for the most part.

Essentially, the list of 7 questions is like an exclusion criteria for copywriters. If you don't like a copywriter's answers to those 7 questions, you really should keep looking - whereas many (but not all) of Judy's questions are things that most copywriters are willing to negotiate on.

However, ALL of the questions in this thread are important ones to ask!

Thanks for your additions Judy!

- Cherilyn

[zapseo]

Kay shaped the electrons to say:

You aren't hiring a tech or a consultant - but a writer. It's a good idea to ask for any ideas they might have but the writing is their "thing" - not the whole project's success. From his point of view - it is about copy.

Kay -- far too many people expect copywriters to perform miracles and pull their balls out of the fire when they created something for which is there is no market, or failed to do appropriate market research, or simply fail to promote the product adequately. (To name a few causes of project failure.)

So say what you like about the project success or lack thereof, trust me -- if a project doesn't sell, the copywriter is blamed. (And it's why I sometimes like just writing articles instead of copy...)

On top of that -- all the top copywriters I know, and that I have studied with, and have trained with -- from Bencivenga to Carlton to Kilstein to Fortin (lotta 't--ns in there...think I'll change my last name, LOL) -- all teach that marketing -- helping the client market -- is an important part of the process.

Dan Kennedy relates how he listened carefully to what folks talked about at one niche conference during the breaks (golfing) -- and changed the copy on the page to reflect that passion (you can read about it in his Ultimate Sales Letter book, IIRC.

But if people think of copywriters as simply writers, it may explain why so many people appear to be unhappy with the experiences they've had with their copywriters.

I know that you are a writer, Kay -- and maybe I'm misunderstanding, here. It seems to me as though you are picking a bone with me on that particular question. Have I interpreted you correctly ?

Live JoyFully!

Judy

[Matt Jutras]

[sarcasm] Can you write a sales letter if the product doesn't exist yet?

How many words will the sales letter be?

What will my conversion rate be?

Will it be done by tomorrow?

Is it cheaper if you just rewrite the existing sales letter? [/sarcasm]

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

Matt - I hate to say it, but if you ask your potential copywriter THOSE questions - I wouldn't hire them if they responded. LOL

1. Some copywriters can do this, and even I would do this IF I was in on the product creation as well (which I have been, because I'm a content creator as well) - but in most cases, if you don't know the client/market/everything through and through already, this is a no-no.

2. Salesletters should never be a set number of words. Clients ask me how long a letter will be - I tell them as long as it needs to be to get their customers to buy the product, and not a syllable less or more. It's hard to nail that down ahead of time!

3. Also hard to figure out ahead of the time. There are a lot of factors that can make a big difference in this, even the time of year the product is launched. A good copywriter will tell you that they really don't know yet, but they'll consult with you to get the best results possible, and then give you some statistics on past projects in similar niches if applicable.

4. Copy will never be done by tomorrow. At least, not good copy, and not for cheap... If you want a 5% salesletter in 24 hours, be prepared to pay at least $50k - because you'll need to get some superstar copywriters all in the same room for 24 hours building the foundation from the ground up. I have seen it done (I've even done it myself) but it is never - and I mean never - as good as a salesletter that even 2 days were spent on.

5. For some copywriters, research time is a big part of their billing, and rewrites cut down on research a bit (if the copy isn't absolutely horrible) so yes it might be cheaper. For others, they will charge the same for rewrites or brand new copy. This can also depend on the circumstance. Most copywriters will do your copy from scratch whether it is a rewrite or a brand new salespage - but if your copy can't even be used as research because it is SO bad, even those who usually charge less for rewrites will charge you full price.

It is all relative.

Really, your questions are the types of things you want to use to find out whom on your list is the WRONG kind of copywriter - not who you should hire. Thanks for your input, though!

- Cherilyn

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Matt Jutras

Can you write a sales letter if the product doesn't exist yet?

How many words will the sales letter be?

What will my conversion rate be?

Will it be done by tomorrow?

Is it cheaper if you just rewrite the existing sales letter?

1/ From my humble viewpoint - Yes! Why not? As long as the concept is there and has been researched properly - fills a need etc. No problemo. Your copy might end up shaping the final product presentation anyway. And its a good idea to bring the writer in at this stage as well. But a copywriter shouldn't just be thought of as the guy/gal who writes the "sparkling words". Forget the words. Thats why Halbert was so very good at what he did.

"When it comes to writing, people don't have time for your pathetic subtleties"
And

Quote:
"being on target is much more important than being facile with words"

We sometimes tend to forget that don't you think? The potential customer isn't sitting there going "Boy this guy can write!" (unless you're a copywriter)

2/ How many words? We get that all the time don't we? As Cheryl says "as long as it takes". BUT it is proven that Long Copy converts better. They stay on the page longer maybe. They mightn't read all your carefully crafted words - they'll scroll to the bottom and if the Price or the Offer hits their Hot Button they might scroll back up and read more. Long copy can be daunting to the viewer. That's why you need to grab them by the you-know-whats from the get go. You only have a few seconds to do that or they'll click off. And one of the best ways to do it is start with a good yarn - a story. Again - Halbert was the master of that. And if you can weave that story into the pitch - all the better.

3/ What will my conversion rate be? Always a tricky one to answer. But it comes down to testing. Your copy might be killer for the most part but isn't quite converting as much as you like. So you test. You tweak. Add a word/drop a word. Add video/take away the video. Change the font. Change the head. Change the flavor. So the relationship with the writer should be ongoing. It shouldn't be a case of "Here's your copy Dude...hasta la Vista". A smart client will follow up with you. And you should follow-up too - not just do the gig and wash your hands of it. You're building a relationship remember (and I hope I don't sound too preachy or know-it-all here). But it's a relationship. That copy that's performing like a dog could end up being a killer with just a few minor adjustments. And boy isn't that great when that happens.

4/ Will it be done by tomorrow? Uh oh. Here we go. As I've stated elsewhere, personally I find I go off the boil if the gig drags on. What I'm looking for is a sense of urgency/excitement/freshness in the copy. And that comes with banging it out. Getting it down. Not taking three frigging months. Yes I know a lot of the Top Dogs here will violently disagree with that and again I turn to the Prince of Print, Gary Halbert -

The very best writing involves almost no thought whatsoever. In truth, to the extent it is possible, you should strive to make your writing an almost 100% "thoughtless" endeavor. I know this seems absolutely wrong to you right now. But, I promise, by the end of this letter, you will completely understand why "thoughtless" writing is the very best writing... and... equally important, you will understand why this is true.
From The Gary Halbert Letter - the Joe Polish one.

This intro is followed by a yarn about going to see Joe Polish in Arizona. Followed by a sales letter. Followed at the end by this -

Quote:
Who did write it? None other than my trusty Assistant, Theresa, who has been with me through thick and thin for eight years now. Not only did she write it... she did so at blinding speed...even though...she is NOT a copywriter. She didn't have to think about it, "struggle" with it, "ponder" on it or nothing. She just plain sat down at her PC and knocked it out. How can this be? The answer is simple. You see, over the last eight years, Theresa has typed almost every word I've written. If there is such a thing as a "Halbert style"of writing, it is embedded in Theresa's neurology. In fact, she can probably write more like Halbert than Halbert. It's like driving a car: After you've been doing it for thousands of miles, you don't have to think about it anymore. You literally do it on "autopilot."
In other words, once you're good at it, you do it thoughtlessly. So it is with writing. And, to help you understand that, I want you to think about another form of communication which is called...talking. When you are in a relaxed conversation about some subject about which you really have your **** wrapped tight, you don't think about talking, do you?
Of course not. There's no need. After all, like driving a car, you've been doing it for years. Talking is easy. It requires no thought whatsoever. Neither does great writing; it's both thoughtless and automatic.

But wait! Those things are true only if you know what you are talking or writing about. You see, when it comes to communicating, almost all of your thinking...Should Be Concerned With The Content Of What You Want To Communicate!

Great writing requires two elements -

1) You must know your subject cold and

(2) there must be almost no obstructions in the neural pathways from your brain to your hands. No mental clots. No inhibitions. No censoring of thoughts. If you've really got this writing stuff down, it will flow from your brain to the written page as easily as lies flow from the lips of a lawyer.

Achieving that kind of uninhibited flow is very hard for most people...when...it comes to writing. But, not for Theresa...because...it ain't her that writes all that stuff. She's not inhibited in that area because...it's not her that's writing...it's her embedded "Halbert Neurology" that is...to blame.

Grab the PDF of it here - thegaryhalbertletter.com

Now I gotta run. I promised a Warrior I'd bang out his long form sales letter in a day. I read the brief weeks ago and scanned the PDF - so it's been "percolating" as Carlton says. Now I just gotta get it down. It's showtime!

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

Metro - While I agree that some copy can convert well when done quickly (I personally like to complete a draft in just a day, it keeps the energy of the piece up!) you are in fact the exception to the rule. It takes a strong knowledge of persuasion to be able to "bang out" copy in a day without it sucking horribly. In fact, that "one day" sales letter could take years of learning to be able to craft effectively.

Research is also an important part of the copywriting process - and there is really no way to get inside the head of your ideal customer AND finish a letter in just one day unless you're a super-human. Even you are currently reading over the research supplied by your client and letting it "percolate" - some copywriters just prefer to do more research and percolate more ideas before putting pen to paper (or, in many cases, fingers to keyboard!)

Then you have editing. I personally prefer to let the copy sit for a day or two, then come back to it - many of my best converting salesletters only achieved the results they did because of that process. It allows you to come back to the copy with fresh eyes, back in the buyers' perspective, and find parts of the copy that don't flow or don't effectively join the conversation. It is, I feel, an important part of the process. As they say, copy is like fine wine - it gets better with age!

So back to my original point, it is great if you can get good results for your clients by completing a project in just a day - but if you really can, then you are definitely the exception to the rule!

- Cherilyn

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Cherilyn Woodhouse

Metro - While I agree that some copy can convert well when done quickly (I personally like to complete a draft in just a day, it keeps the energy of the piece up!) you are in fact the exception to the rule. It takes a strong knowledge of persuasion to be able to "bang out" copy in a day without it sucking horribly. In fact, that "one day" sales letter could take years of learning to be able to craft effectively.

Research is also an important part of the copywriting process - and there is really no way to get inside the head of your ideal customer AND finish a letter in just one day unless you're a super-human. Even you are currently reading over the research supplied by your client and letting it "percolate" - some copywriters just prefer to do more research and percolate more ideas before putting pen to paper (or, in many cases, fingers to keyboard!)

Then you have editing. I personally prefer to let the copy sit for a day or two, then come back to it - many of my best converting salesletters only achieved the results they did because of that process. It allows you to come back to the copy with fresh eyes, back in the buyers' perspective, and find parts of the copy that don't flow or don't effectively join the conversation. It is, I feel, an important part of the process. As they say, copy is like fine wine - it gets better with age!

So back to my original point, it is great that you can get good results for your clients by completing a project in just a day - but you are definitely the exception to the rule!

- Cherilyn

Yeah, I keep telling people I'm the best thing since Pop-Up Toasters. But seriously, you're right when you say "In fact, that "one day" sales letter could take years of learning to be able to craft effectively."

[Matt Jutras]

Originally Posted by Cherilyn Woodhouse

Matt - I hate to say it, but if you ask your potential copywriter THOSE questions - I wouldn't hire them if they responded. LOL

Oh, I know.

That was actually a list of "red flag" questions that I get every day on here. I don't hire clients that ask them...lol.

So, I think a couple of you took my post the wrong way.

It was more tongue-in-cheek than anything else...because I think we ALL get those eye-rolling questions from time to time.

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

I'm going to ask this politely, and I'm going to ask this once.

Do not get this thread shut down by turning it into an argument. Please see Urban Dictionary: feeding the trolls

This, and other threads of value, have been getting closed due to certain persons stirring the pot.

For this forum to continue to have any value whatsoever, we have to go on. We can't continue to have valuable threads shut down because of a few issues.

So please - here, and everywhere else for that matter, lets keep on topic.

- Cherilyn

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

I thought so, but I wasn't sure. LOL

I just posted the above in case someone else didn't understand that it was tongue-in-cheek, since I was uncertain myself (sorry Matt, but I don't spend enough time on here anymore and as such, I don't know enough about your reputation to know if you are one of "us" or "them" LOL!)

But thanks for the clarification, I certainly know what you mean about the eye-rolling questions! Ha ha

- Cherilyn

Originally Posted by Matt Jutras

Oh, I know.

That was actually a list of "red flag" questions that I get every day on here. I don't hire clients that ask them...lol.

So, I think a couple of you took my post the wrong way.

It was more tongue-in-cheek than anything else...because I think we ALL get those eye-rolling questions from time to time.

[zapseo]

Uh, Cherilyn...

What are you talking about ?

I don't see any conversation that remotely seems like an argument, or posts that are created by a troll.

[highprofitdi]

When you hire your copywriter for your project are the copyrights part of the negotiations or are they already assumed to be included as part of the package.

[Raydal]

The bottom line is that these are all questions that your website
promoting your copywriting service should already answer. If
a client asks me any of these questions then I know that they
didn't read my website because there I answer all of them, or
at least within the agreement as well.

Just be careful you are not answering questions your clients
are NOT asking.

-Ray Edwards

[Collette]

The excerpt quoted below has been posted several times now to support the premise that good writing doesn't take time. The excerpt, taken on its surface value, is misleading, and does a disservice to inexperienced copywriters. I have added some comments in blue:

The very best writing involves almost no thought whatsoever. In truth, to the extent it is possible, you should strive to make your writing an almost 100% "thoughtless" endeavor.

Please note the enclosing quotation marks for "thoughtless". This means that the writer intends the reader to understand that he does not mean "thoughtless" to mean, literally, "without thought".


As Halbert goes on to explain...

I know this seems absolutely wrong to you right now. But, I promise, by the end of this letter, you will completely understand why "thoughtless" writing is the very best writing... and... equally important, you will understand why this is true.

...Followed at the end by this -

Quote:
Who did write it? None other than my trusty Assistant, Theresa, who has been with me through thick and thin for eight years now.

Halbert gives you the first hint of how his assistant, not a "copywriter" was able to write a persuasive letter. He tells you, specifically, that she has worked closely with him for eight years.

For those who are familiar with Gary Halbert, it's immediately apparent that Theresa is a woman of substantial capabilities. Halbert, we know, did not suffer fools gladly. The obvious inference is that Theresa is a bright, capable, talented assistant.

Not only did she write it... she did so at blinding speed...even though...she is NOT a copywriter. She didn't have to think about it, "struggle" with it, "ponder" on it or nothing. She just plain sat down at her PC and knocked it out.

This is "the set-up". Halbert tells you Theresa is (emphatically) not a copywriter (i.e. "an ordinary person just like you"). Then he give you specifics using the "process words" "struggle" and "ponder". These are words that implant the idea: This is hard work. These words suggest difficult blocks or obstacles to overcome.

How can this be?

Halbert anticipates the reader's question (buyer's objection), and proceedes immediately to...

The answer is simple.

Notice the use of "simple" after the use of "struggle" and "ponder". An easy, everyman solution is available. But just telling the reader the solution is "simple" isn't enough to convince the reader. We want specifics. And Halbert gives them...

You see, over the last eight years, Theresa has typed almost every word I've written. If there is such a thing as a "Halbert style"of writing, it is embedded in Theresa's neurology. In fact, she can probably write more like Halbert than Halbert.

Important clarification. While the solution is "simple" it still takes work. Eight years of work, to be exact. Eight years of typing almost every word of Halbert's brain output. Eight years of listening to him talk and think, and then transcribing those words and thoughts to paper.

Eight years to practice "writing" like a million dollar copywriter.

Simple, yes. "Without effort"? No.

And then Halbert gives you an example of the process that just about anyone reading the letter can understand: driving a car.

It's like driving a car: After you've been doing it for thousands of miles, you don't have to think about it anymore. You literally do it on "autopilot."
In other words, once you're good at it, you do it thoughtlessly.

Any driver can understand this. Any driver can think back to when he or she was learning and practicing to get a license. How, at first, you had to concentrate really hard. Learning to turn the steering wheel just enough to make the corner and not jump the curb. Struggling to master the precise technique required to parallel park - in under a sweat-filled, swearing hour.

And now... now you turn corners right and left without a thought. If you live in New York, Chicago or Philly, you parallel park neatly in 30 seconds and are on your way.

Now, when you get behind the wheel and turn the key, you no longer have to "think". Your driving skills are "thoughtless".

Having helped you draw the picture in your mind, Halbert brings you back to his subject, "thoughtless" writing. And adds in another analogy "Everyman" can identify with: something we all do every day:

So it is with writing. And, to help you understand that, I want you to think about another form of communication which is called...talking.

Few of us remember learning to talk. Unless you've had to relearn the process after a brain injury, the skill of transferring your thoughts into words is so well practiced, for so many years, that it is now "thoughtless".

And now Halbert has made you understand the critical importance of practice, he smoothly adds the next element necessary to the process of "thoughtless" writing: knowledge.

When you are in a relaxed conversation about some subject about which you really have your **** wrapped tight, you don't think about talking, do you?
Of course not. There's no need. After all, like driving a car, you've been doing it for years.

Summary thought that brings it all together for the reader: "...you don't think about talking, do you?

Of course not. There's no need. After all, like driving a car, you've been doing it for years."

Talking is easy. It requires no thought whatsoever. Neither does great writing; it's both thoughtless and automatic.

But wait! Those things are true only if you know what you are talking or writing about.

Again, Halbert emphasizes that the art of being able to "write thoughtlessly" doesn't come without certain critical elements already being in place... without doing the work first.

When we first learn to speak, we have to learn which words represent which things. Initially, because our knowledge is so limited, we struggle to find the words to express ourselves. We also have to learn how to use our lips, teeth, and tongue to form the words so that we are understood by others.

We have to acquire the knowledge, and use it to communicate effectively.

You see, when it comes to communicating, almost all of your thinking...Should Be Concerned With The Content Of What You Want To Communicate!

Great writing requires two elements -

1) You must know your subject cold and

Please notice the deliberate choice of word "cold". Halbert specifically gives the criterion that you MUST know your subject so well that you can speak about it without having to struggle or ponder. The knowledge must be so deep in your brain that the concepts are second nature to you. Like driving a car.

Notice, also, that Halbert places "knowledge" first. If you don't know what you're writing about, you're going to have to get the knowledge before you can create great writing.

To acquire knowledge takes time. For Theresa, eight years, to be exact.

(2) there must be almost no obstructions in the neural pathways from your brain to your hands. No mental clots. No inhibitions. No censoring of thoughts. If you've really got this writing stuff down, it will flow from your brain to the written page as easily as lies flow from the lips of a lawyer.

The second "must" element: being able to perform automatically. Like "knowing" just how much you need to turn the steering wheel to make the corner, but not jump the curb.

Achieving that kind of uninhibited flow is very hard for most people...when...it comes to writing. But, not for Theresa...because...it ain't her that writes all that stuff. She's not inhibited in that area because...it's not her that's writing...it's her embedded "Halbert Neurology" that is...to blame.

Hard for most people, yes. But not for Theresa. Because after eight years of "practicing" thinking and writing like Halbert, Theresa has this stuff down cold. She doesn't have to think, "Is this how Gary would write this letter?" When she writes for Gary, she automatically writes in Gary's "voice", without "pondering" or "struggling" to find the words or achieve the exact tone.

After eight years of learning and practice Theresa can write "thoughtlessly".

In summary:

-Take the time to learn the skills and become competent in them.
-Take the time to gather the knowledge you need.
-Practice using your knowledge and your skills together.
-The more you practice, the more effortless the process becomes.
-Eventually, you will be able to write "without thinking".

[Collette]

Actually, I'd change

4. Ask to see your copywriter's blog.

to

4. Ask to see your copywriter's portfolio.

Quite a few excellent copywriters don't have a blog. Seeing a portfolio of the copywriter's actual work is more important than blog entries.

[Ken Strong]

Agree -- I don't see why the client should care whether a copywriter has a blog or not.

Originally Posted by Collette

Actually, I'd change

4. Ask to see your copywriter's blog.

to

4. Ask to see your copywriter's portfolio.

Quite a few excellent copywriters don't have a blog. Seeing a portfolio of the copywriter's actual work is more important than blog entries.

[Jay Truman]

#8. How many controls have you written. And contact the references.

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

Ok, so perhaps it should be 8 - I thought samples/portfolio were implied by the first point, but you're right - seeing a portfolio is more important than seeing a blog.

However, I do believe that a blog or at least an article or two on the subject of copywriting or marketing are important to see. As a copywriter, you should be passionate about your work - many great copywriters I know of have obscure little blogs that they use to write about copywriting and marketing. Sure, they don't get the following that John Carlton's blog gets (or should that be, "Damn Blog"?) - but they get the inspiration, and write about their passion.

It isn't a deal breaker, but if I were hiring a copywriter, I would want to know that they're passionate enough about copywriting to write about it at some point or another. Just my 2c.

- Cherilyn

[DougHughes]

Originally Posted by Jay Truman

#8. How many controls have you written. And contact the references.

Right...what else do you need to say?

Look, even the best copywriters bomb. You have undoubtedly heard time and time again - test...test...test.

As far as I am concerned you are entering into a relationship with a copywriter/client. If the copy bombs at first then I would expect a rewrite/edit.

C'mon...regardless of how exalted copywriting is, it is still just the act of putting words on paper. A decent copywriter should for vanity and ego sake, be willing to rewrite or edit failed copy. You would expect a certain number of rewrites as part of the quote.

Sorry about that tangent. Anyhow, we test things all the time. And...you know what? A lot of the time we get it wrong.

The only way to find this out is through testing. All of your ideas about things are just that. You can learn so much from testing. If you feel you can't afford to test then you are probably not cut out for direct response.

A copywriter is still just one piece of the equation. You may do something graphically that kills the effectiveness of your copy. It's so hard to figure out what consumers want from one day to the next.

Also, even though I have been a copywriter, creative director, direct reponse marketing manager, and a bunch of stuff in between, I can tell you that at the end of the day everything is simple.

Truthfully, if you are a business owner used to selling customers/clients all the time then you may be the best person to write your copy...even if you suck at writing.

Let me explain. You already know what your customers want. You know their objections. You know how to play on their hopes and fears, wants, and needs.

If you can sell someone in person you can probably sell them in print. In print you just have to try to address the greatest objections without the opportunity of face-to-face contact - in addition to all the other stuff you do to make a sale.

Listen, if you don't have 3-15k to hire a copywriter don't sweat it. Write the copy yourself and use the money to test your own copy. If you have to, hire a copywriter to critique your page if need be.

Just remember, copywriting is salesmanship in print.

Also, not to discount copywriters, I recommend doing what Gary Halbert talked about too. Go out and get things like the "Bencivenga Bullet" something from Doug D'anna, Clayton Makepeace, John Carlton, Bob Bly, etc... and copy it word-for-word with a pen or pencil.

This will program your mind to write persuasive copy. There are likely subtle, nuance-like things you'll have a hard time cluing into otherwise.

Before I finish, I want to point out, that with the exception of John Carlton, all of the other writers mentioned above do not write the kind of outlandish and hype-like copy you might expect. Keep in mind, these are proven copywriters that consistently beat controls.

That said, it isn't always about how you say it as much as it is about saying the right thing to the right person at the right time.

That's my two cents anyway.

[zapseo]

Originally Posted by zapseo

Uh, Cherilyn...

What are you talking about ?

I don't see any conversation that remotely seems like an argument, or posts that are created by a troll.

Okay...so I chose a very odd time to return to the copywriting forum of the Warrior Forum.

For those who don't remember their history, or weren't around for the history (it wasn't that long ago) -- there once was a WONDERFUL forum for copywriters, run by a well-known and well-liked copywriter. People came there. Posted critiques. Asked for critiques. Got jobs. Found copywriters. (In fact, Russell Brunson famously posted his request for a full-time copywriter, and found -- and has kept, I believe, Kevin Hill.) You could find someone who had some lost salesletter (I'd still like to find my copy of one of Kilstein's letters -- that Frank Kern asked him to not publish....but I think I could have a found a copy there!). For a decade this fine forum flourished.

And then, one day, Michel Fortin pulled the plug and CopywritersBoard was no more.

'Twas a sad day for copywriters seeking a online watering hole.

But, if rumors and accounts be true -- it sounds like a lot of backbiting, arguments, and ill-behavior was the downfall of that fine forum.

The guy who has been trying to create the replacement won't even talk to someone who was a senior moderator on Fortin's forum. (Never mind that that moderator HAD been thrown off the AWAI forum three times. No denying he can be a bit irascible.) All I'm saying is, Fortin ran a forum that both of them contributed to -- people as opposed to each other as that.

What does that have to do with anything? For instance, client relationships, such as we are discussing on this thread?

Well...

I would still maintain that the personal relationship you have with the person will determine the quality of the work that you have. If the copywriter enjoys working with you, and wants to work with you again, they'll go out of their way to be helpful to you. If it's just a money venture, there's no real life or spirit in it. And if there's one thing copy needs, it's spirit.

(And, incidentally, this was a lesson that I learned at the feet of nlp-co-founder John Grinder.)

If you are paying your copywriter so poorly that they are spending more time trying to find the money to pay their bills, you are ill-served. Pay the copywriter what they deserve, and they most often will work their bones off to serve you. At least those of us who consider ourselves craftspeople.

BTW -- A friend and client of mine (and reasonably well-known warrior) was drug thru the mud -- quite unfairly -- earlier this year. They still bear the scars from it. They did kinda stick their hand in a hornet's nest and upset the hornets -- and consequently got stung. There was no good reason for them to do that, except they were coming to the aid of a friend who was being maligned.

Big mistake -- as the guns of malignment became targeted on them. It was awful and ugly.

My advice to this person (which they finally took): IGNORE THEM.

Whatever you give your attention to grows. You want something to die -- ignore it. Ignorance is more powerful than dislike or hate.

Plant flowers, bring springtime and smiles into people's lives.

It's the order in which you prioritize things. If you brighten people's day, they'll more often think you "right" whether you are, in fact, right or not.

Sorry to inform you truth-seekers, LOL.

It's all a ruse.

As I wrote to a well-known software vendor who made suggestions that I might be double-dealing and cast aspersions about my technical competence, I pointed out that human communication is fraught with misunderstanding and miscommunication. Human communication is a VERY imperfect art -- so if it can be done in an environment in which there is mutual respect and, even friendship -- when those inevitable miscommunications occur, they can be dealt with.

Maybe if people understood better and more pervasively that human communication is an imperfect art, fraught with misunderstandings (and that's even when we're using all that non-verbal stuff that the scientists tell us make up 93% of our communication) -- then we'll give each other more slack. We won't be ready to take up arms at the slightest provocation.

2 things:

I also learned from my tour of duty in the NLP world this wonderful aphorism: "The meaning of the communication is the response that it elicits. If you don't like what you're getting, do something different."

(and yes, "if you do what you've always done, you'll get what you always got" -- has its genesis in that aforementioned aphorism -- although I
would have quibbles with that particular casting.)

Second:
try to be a little relaxed about what you think the world is. No one's got a handle on reality, and a lot of time that little piece we seem so certain of has a way of showing up being wrong. (There are stories of great scientists, for instance, who simply could not accept Einstein's theories...I don't recall their names.)

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

Judy - Sorry about the above post, but there was a little bit of back and forth there between individuals whom have been know to escalate things beyond what is appropriate that could have, well, escalated beyond what was appropriate. Thankfully that seems to have been nipped in the bud, so to speak, since last night.

You make some great points Judy! Thanks for being such a great contributor to this area of the forum.

- Cherilyn

[Kay King]

I didn't see any arguments - just varying opinions.

Judy - I agree with your second post entirely and I like to be involved with clients. Many of the questions posted are good ones but any questions asked should be asked for a purpose. If offline writing is important to you as a buyer, say so. If what is important is online sales copy, it's not a question you would worry about.

I have a client I absolutely love - because he tells me exactly what he wants and what he plans to do with it...and that helps me do a better job for him every time. It's a give and take relationship and when both buyer and writer are open in communicating, the entire process is smoother.

Earlier today I saw someone post a thread asking for quotes from "only good writers" - and the OP had no idea what niche he wanted the writing in or anything else. He just knew he "wanted a clickbank product to sell".
That's an accident waiting to happen - and we've all seen them.

kay

[colmodwyer]

Can you write a sales letter if the product doesn't exist yet?

The famous Insider Code was actually written and then put to a product... If my sources are correct.

I think Halbert did this quite often too, because what's the point in creating the product if it doesn't sell?

I know of one big publisher who did this recently also.

So although a question like this might be a red flag, you'd want to consider the surrounding circumstances.

I think as well, what an opportunity for a copywriter to write the greatest sales letter the world has ever seen!

Colm

[Dainis]

I would still maintain that the personal relationship you have with the person will determine the quality of the work that you have. If the copywriter enjoys working with you, and wants to work with you again, they'll go out of their way to be helpful to you. If it's just a money venture, there's no real life or spirit in it. And if there's one thing copy needs, it's spirit.

Marvelous! Just marvelous!

human communication is fraught with misunderstanding and miscommunication. Human communication is a VERY imperfect art -- so if it can be done in an environment in which there is mutual respect and, even friendship -- when those inevitable miscommunications occur, they can be dealt with.

Right! How nice to read this here. Thank you.

I also feel it is important to look at the "character" of the copywriter's work, whether it be in copywriting or not. For example, a copywriter who has had mega-super cash-sucking success writing hot abs ads may not do very well writing for your market.

Someone who can sincerely connect with your audience, who also cares deeply about communicating a compelling offer for your prospects to buy, may work out better for you.

[Jay Truman]

Originally Posted by DougHughes

Right...what else do you need to say?

I'd say the copywriter should have there own product too, on top of the controls they've written with contact references.

[ildarius]

It really shows that people gathered here are serious copywriters. Every other post is like a mini ebook.

[zapseo]

Actually, Eugene Schwartz was famous for writing the salesletter and having the product created around his salesletter.

And, in re-reading my post above, I'm kinda happy with it -- more than many posts I've written.

If you think so too, I'd appreciate more people getting exposed to it by y'all using the "thanks" button (ON THE POST ABOVE, NOT THIS ONE.)

It's been over 25 years since NLP blenderized my brain. I'm still recovering, LOL. Since I come from the Grinder camp, and not the Bandler camp, I have a bit of a different philosophical approach than many out there. While I may have issues with the field, (and, more often, some of the arrogant SOBs who swagger their NLP skills), there's much good to be found. Unfortunately, too many people go after it in order to be able to exercise power over others, when, really, it's more about exercising power over yourself (IMNSHO.)