Frank Kern can eat my shorts

[The Copy Nazi]

(If you've come late to the party, this post has been redacted. I said a few things which were construed as blatantly self-promotional and it upset a few campers so I've taken it down. Consequently it's a bit hard to follow the thread. Sorry about that. Mea Culpa.)

Gary Halbert said

"When it comes to writing, people don't have time for your pathetic subtleties"

And

"being on target is much more important than being facile with words"

If you read Halbert's stuff you'll see he didn't muck around. He went for the jugular. He didn't fiddle around for three weeks on one sales letter trying to write like Shakespeare. He had a "gun to the head". There's a sense of urgency in all his stuff. Plain writing. He just told an entertaining story. Using simple short sentences. And plain words. He told the punters what he had, why their lives would be so much better if they bought one and then he told them where to get it. He didn't agonise over it. And he freely admitted his copy wouldn't win any awards for style. But it sure did the job. It moved truckloads of product.

Why not write like you have a gun to the head. Like your life depends on it. Just bash it out.

[Traffic-Bug]

Hey great, I couldnt understand half the things you said but it sure sounds impressive.

[Scott Murdaugh]

And don't kid yourself that your copy is worth $5,000. 'cause it aint.

Metro (is it cool if I call you that?)...

I like all of the "write like you have a gun to your head" jazz.

And I do have respect for your work... Hell, I'd love to write for Kern.

I do have a problem with the "Your copy ain't worth $5k" statement though.

We don't get paid by the word bro, you know that. And if my letter brings in 3% conversions, and Joe Blow brings in 1% conversions... Over 100k visitors on, let's say a $27 product...

What's my copy worth?

I remember a quote from you from a previous post "That ain't a statement, that's the going rate"... And I believe the numbers being thrown around were $5k-$10k.

I'm not bashing you. Congratz on the Kern gig... And your copy is good.

I just think that statement I quoted is wrong. With the right product, the right clients, and the right approach a good copywriter can bring a lot more than $5k worth of value to the table.

Peace,

-Scott

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

I guess congratulations are in order, although I don't understand a lot of your post myself.

Good on you for finding a way to turn a negative into a positive

[Dainis]

Scary copy whoah out there fringe beer surf drink copy surf coffee coffee coffee wig

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Dainis

Scary copy whoah out there fringe beer surf drink copy surf coffee coffee coffee wig

I'll wear a suit and tie for the next mug-shot. ;-)

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by Metronicity

He didn't fiddle around for three weeks on one sales letter trying to write like Shakespeare.

I'm not sure how long Halbert took to write a letter... do you know or are you just guessing?

I DO know John Carlton takes 2 months to write a letter... parts of his process alone take longer than a few days.

And don't kid yourself that your copy is worth $5,000. 'cause it aint.

That's funny... one of my clients is banking five figures a month with my copy.

I didn't charge 5k back then but I'm pretty sure he'll pay that and more for the next project I do for him based on the insane amount of cash he's pulling out of the last one.

Me, I'd rather be working. Constantly.

Putting aside the whole "lifestyle" issue... I know a lot of guys who command five figure fees who have to keep turning away work. Its all about positioning and having the kind of results that allows you to charge those kind of fees.

Now, if you're saying it's better to write 4 letters a month... I don't agree with you.

I USED to write letters in a few days.

These days, however, it takes me three weeks to write a letter now... because I'm much more particular (and because I am better at seeing what could be improved).

I also think you've taken those quotes out of context. Writing simply is HARD to do well... and for me, and most other copywriters, it takes a lot of time to do it properly.

I'd prefer to be able to spend the time on a client's letter to make them more money... after all, most people put their heart and soul into their launches... they want to make the most money they can, and they don't have the "big name" to sell things regardless of copy.

-Dan

[/QUOTE]

[Dainis]

there was a wacky looking white guy wearing a wig who posted this thread. now there is a black dude wearing shades. don't know what's going on. there's this girl from H.S. who uses Eminem's face as her Facebook profile photo. i always read her posts in a rap slim shady voice and forget who posted.

i guess you can just call me the new guy around here...i actually am a guy. really i am. have a wife and kids too...

what duz the "whacked out copywriter" who just wrote for Kern really look like? no one knowz. no one knowz.

congrats on working for Kern. cool cat. my wife will actually sit around and watch his vids with me on a Sat night if we don't feel like watching a movie.

we still sing "buy mahh sh***t, buy mah sh****t" around the house, which has not improved our 2.5 year old daughters manners!

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Dainis

there was a wacky looking white guy wearing a wig who posted this thread. now there is a black dude wearing shades. don't know what's going on. there's this girl from H.S. who uses Eminem's face as her Facebook profile photo. i always read her posts in a rap slim shady voice and forget who posted.

i guess you can just call me the new guy around here...i actually am a guy. really i am. have a wife and kids too...

what duz the "whacked out copywriter" who just wrote for Kern really look like? no one knowz. no one knowz.

congrats on working for Kern. cool cat. my wife will actually sit around and watch his vids with me on a Sat night if we don't feel like watching a movie.

we still sing "buy mahh sh***t, buy mah sh****t" around the house, which has not improved our 2.5 year old daughters manners!

A black dude wearing shades? That's funny. It's taken with "pencil effect" on "PhotoBooth" on the Mac. But I can assure you I'm a whitey. Well last time I looked I was. So now I'm gonna change it again. I don't take a good photo.

[The Copy Nazi]

Here you go - straight from the horse's mouth -

The very best writing involves almost no thought whatsoever. In truth, to the extent it is possible, you should strive to make your writing an almost 100% "thoughtless" endeavor. I know this seems absolutely wrong to you right now. But, I promise, by the end of this letter, you will completely understand why "thoughtless" writing is the very best writing... and... equally important, you will understand why this is true.

From The Gary Halbert Letter - the Joe Polish one.

This intro is followed by a yarn about going to see Joe Polish in Arizona. Followed by a sales letter. Followed at the end by this -

Who did write it? None other than my trusty Assistant, Theresa, who has been with me through thick and thin for eight years now. Not only did she write it... she did so at blinding speed...even though...she is NOT a copywriter. She didn't have to think about it, "struggle" with it, "ponder" on it or nothing. She just plain sat down at her PC and knocked it out. How can this be? The answer is simple. You see, over the last eight years, Theresa has typed almost every word I've written. If there is such a thing as a "Halbert style"of writing, it is embedded in Theresa's neurology. In fact, she can probably write more like Halbert than Halbert. It's like driving a car: After you've been doing it for thousands of miles, you don't have to think about it anymore. You literally do it on "autopilot."
In other words, once you're good at it, you do it thoughtlessly. So it is with writing. And, to help you understand that, I want you to think about another form of communication which is called...talking. When you are in a relaxed conversation about some subject about which you really have your **** wrapped tight, you don't think about talking, do you?
Of course not. There's no need. After all, like driving a car, you've been doing it for years. Talking is easy. It requires no thought whatsoever. Neither does great writing; it's both thoughtless and automatic.

But wait! Those things are true only if you know what you are talking or writing about. You see, when it comes to communicating, almost all of your thinking...Should Be Concerned With The Content Of What You Want To Communicate!

Great writing requires two elements -

1) You must know your subject cold and

(2) there must be almost no obstructions in the neural pathways from your brain to your hands. No mental clots. No inhibitions. No censoring of thoughts. If you've really got this writing stuff down, it will flow from your brain to the written page as easily as lies flow from the lips of a lawyer.

Achieving that kind of uninhibited flow is very hard for most people...when...it comes to writing. But, not for Theresa...because...it ain't her that writes all that stuff. She's not inhibited in that area because...it's not her that's writing...it's her embedded "Halbert Neurology" that is...to blame.

Grab the PDF of it here - thegaryhalbertletter.com

[Kevin Lam]

LMAO at Paul McQuillan. Again, congrats, Malcolm!

[Raydal]

I don't know how this post survived, but this is totally self-promotional.

I can't write myself a testimonial and post it on the board and that's
what this is.

-Ray Edwards

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Raydal

I don't know how this post survived, but this is totally self-promotional.

I can't write myself a testimonial and post it on the board and that's
what this is.

-Ray Edwards

You really think that? Golly. Wasn't intended to be. Bit mean-spirited of you isn't it? I was just sharing my joy at landing the gig. Tell you what I'll go back and delete most of it.

[MontelloMarketing]

Originally Posted by Metronicity

But copywriting isn't about being clever with words or being a "craftsman". Its about flogging product. With words. As quickly and easily and economically as possible. As Gary Halbert put it

And

If you read Halbert's stuff you'll see he didn't muck around. He went for the jugular. He didn't fiddle around for three weeks on one sales letter trying to write like Shakespeare. He had a "gun to the head". There's a sense of urgency in all his stuff.

Who ever said it was like trying to write shakespeare? Good copy takes time. Arguably one of the greatest living copywriters, John Carlton says writing a sales letter takes him not 3 weeks but 12 weeks!

(That's not some found quote from him. A couple years ago I was in a room in San Francisco with around 50 others. And John explained his process in detail.)

But this isn't about sitting around trying to find the perfect turn of a phrase. It's not about rhyming couplets. It's about everything else that goes into crafting a great letter. It's about what Carlton calls percolating.

And don't kid yourself that your copy is worth $5,000. 'cause it aint. Especially around these parts. These guys want good, clean, hard-hitting copy. At a decent rate. And they want it tomorrow. So what's so hard about that? Do you good to train yourself to write fast anyway.

I won't kid myself because my copy is not worth 5K. It's worth 15K and man, you need better clients.

My advice to anyone reading this is sure, do it metros way. That leaves all the good clients and the real money for me and my students.

Metros, you may want to look inward. Maybe it's just that YOUR copy ain't worth a thing.

[Lance K]

Still cuirous about the title...

Frank Kern can eat my shorts

I guess it was stated that way for no other reason than to get views?

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

Who ever said it was like trying to write shakespeare? Good copy takes time. Arguably one of the greatest living copywriters, John Carlton says writing a sales letter takes him not 3 weeks but 12 weeks!

But this isn't about sitting around trying to find the perfect turn of a phrase. It's not about rhyming couplets. It's about everything else that goes into crafting a great letter. It's about what Carlton calls percolating.



I won't kid myself because my copy is not worth 5K. It's worth 15K and man, you need better clients.

My advice to anyone reading this is sure, do it metros way. That leaves all the good clients and the real money for me and my students.

Metros, you may want to look inward. Maybe it's just that YOUR copy ain't worth a thing.

Another rude one. Boy...some of you guys. I shake my head. BTW neither of your pages is loading properly. On Firefox 3.5.3 at least. Haven't checked the others.

[MontelloMarketing]

Not sure why you find reality so rude.

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by Metronicity

So that's my advice to you. If you wanna win gigs with guys like Frank Kern, just write like you have a gun to the head. Like your life depends on it. Just bash it out. And don't kid yourself that your copy is worth $5,000. 'cause it aint. Especially around these parts. These guys want good, clean, hard-hitting copy. At a decent rate. And they want it tomorrow. So what's so hard about that? Do you good to train yourself to write fast anyway.
[/B][/CENTER]

Mal,

Congrats on getting a project with Kern. I hope it's the first of many for you with Frank.

Your advice is heartfelt but not completely accurate.

Every client would love to have the best converting copy... at a "reasonable" price (whatever reasonable means to them)... and get it tomorrow (or 10 minutes from if you could).

Problem is no service provider, in any industry, can deliver it... especially with consistency. You can't be the best quality, cheapest, and fastest provider... nor should you want to be.

IF you want to be the best quality and fast, that's great. But charge a premium for it. Like say double your normal fees for the added convenience you're delivering.


As for speed of writing copy... there's where I guess we'll agree to disagree. When I started as a copywriter, I was charging $400 for a sales letter from scratch and knocking them out in 8 hours or less.

Problem was they didn't convert very well. So I started spending a lot more time on the research... the place where the top copywriters (insert your favorites here) spend the majority of their time.

I went from doing a sales letter in a day... to needing 30-40 hours of uninterrupted time to do all of the research, writing, editing, proofing, and polishing the copy. I'm talking 4-7 rounds of revisions before I consider it ready for the clients' eyes.

I switched to that system of writing and my batting average skyrocketed massively.

In terms of fees, I partially agree with you. I'm not a fan of the low price, high volume copywriting. I started out that way, doing 10-12 projects per month and quickly found myself feeling burned out as a copywriter.

Personally, I like finding what I call the sweet spot with my fees. What I've done is find the price points where I can stay consistently booked 4-6 weeks out year round without feeling like I'm unable to give each project my full attention or energies.

Could I charge more than $4-6K per project? Sure. Sometimes I do, depending on the size and type of the project. But I'd rather stay consistently busy year round which I've done for 3+ years now.

Take care,

Mike

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Mal,

Congrats on getting a project with Kern. I hope it's the first of many for you with Frank.

Your advice is heartfelt but not completely accurate.

Every client would love to have the best converting copy... at a "reasonable" price (whatever reasonable means to them)... and get it tomorrow (or 10 minutes from if you could).

Problem is no service provider, in any industry, can deliver it... especially with consistency. You can't be the best quality, cheapest, and fastest provider... nor should you want to be.

IF you want to be the best quality and fast, that's great. But charge a premium for it. Like say double your normal fees for the added convenience you're delivering.


As for speed of writing copy... there's where I guess we'll agree to disagree. When I started as a copywriter, I was charging $400 for a sales letter from scratch and knocking them out in 8 hours or less.

Problem was they didn't convert very well. So I started spending a lot more time on the research... the place where the top copywriters (insert your favorites here) spend the majority of their time.

I went from doing a sales letter in a day... to needing 30-40 hours of uninterrupted time to do all of the research, writing, editing, proofing, and polishing the copy. I'm talking 4-7 rounds of revisions before I consider it ready for the clients' eyes.

I switched to that system of writing and my batting average skyrocketed massively.

In terms of fees, I partially agree with you. I'm not a fan of the low price, high volume copywriting. I started out that way, doing 10-12 projects per month and quickly found myself feeling burned out as a copywriter.

Personally, I like finding what I call the sweet spot with my fees. What I've done is find the price points where I can stay consistently booked 4-6 weeks out year round without feeling like I'm unable to give each project my full attention or energies.

Could I charge more than $4-6K per project? Sure. Sometimes I do, depending on the size and type of the project. But I'd rather stay consistently busy year round which I've done for 3+ years now.

Take care,

Mike

Thanks Mike. Psst. Come closer. I actually have gigs that pay more than $2500 but keep it to yourself will ya. I don't want to ruin my reputation as a cut-price, self-promotional, low-brow, abrasive copywriter.

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Lance K

Still cuirous about the title...



I guess it was stated that way for no other reason than to get views?

Oh sorry...I thought I was on an internet marketing forum. My mistake.

[Raydal]

Originally Posted by Metronicity

You really think that? Golly. Wasn't intended to be. Bit mean-spirited of you isn't it? I was just sharing my joy at landing the gig. Tell you what I'll go back and delete most of it.

No, I'm not. Here is how you structure your posts if you want to
promote yourself 'subliminally': You make the Frank Kern bit a
by-the-way.

"You know I always wanted to know how to pick up those big gigs ...
blah, blah, blah ... by the way I got one from 'big name marketer' .."

So you writing for this famous marketers is not the focus of the
post. I see other copywriters do this masterfully all the time.
You were just too blatant.

One way or another we are here to help ourselves. You just can't
be caught doing it in your post without paying $20.

-Ray Edwards

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Raydal

No, I'm not. Here is how you structure your posts if you want to
promote yourself 'subliminally': You make the Frank Kern bit a
by-the-way.

"You know I always wanted to know how to pick up those big gigs ...
blah, blah, blah ... by the way I got one from 'big name marketer' .."

So you writing for this famous marketers is not the focus of the
post. I see other copywriters do this masterfully all the time.
You were just too blatant.

One way or another we are here to help ourselves. You just can't
be caught doing it in your post without paying $20.

-Ray Edwards

Ray, as it happens I have a WSO running at the same time as this. I've always thought this just a small corner of WF where the writers hang out. There's never more than 30 online in my experience. I truly wasn't looking to self-promote here. But on reflection I can see how it might have come across like that. And I know we get a few tire-kickers and walk-bys and wannabe clients but for the most part its just us here. But after this reaction I'm gonna take my ball and go home. Thanks for the copywriting tips.

[Kevin Lam]

Great response, Malcolm. If it were someone else, the outcome could have been disastrous, so glad to see you take it like a man. Still, you're doing very well for yourself. Be sure to keep pumping up the rates so you don't work yourself to death.

I don't want to have more than 5 clients a month... hoping it will be no more than 4 really. But yeah, I know I'll be much happier working less, giving more attention to my clients and making more money at the same time. Yeah, in the beginning, we do what we gotta do to bring in clients. But there comes a point when you need to raise the price so you're not working all hours of the day and night.

I had to thank Mike's advice up there as it's very in-tuned with what I think, but I intend to continue charging $4k+, because my clients find out I do a lot more than just sales copy. Like my recent client who is now being flocked with some of the BEST pick-up artists in the world as JVs (they all have their own dating bootcamp teaching others how to pick-up women). He's happy as hell and looking to do 6 more projects in the future.

[Collette]

I love it when a "copywriter" openly scorns the value of copywriting.

Nothing like devaluing yourself before someone else beats you to it.

[The Copy Nazi]

BTW look up top. The featured Warrior Special Offer was written by me - except for the headline. "Millionaire Marketing Tips on RARE LOST DVD of Legendary Copywriter Gary Halbert" For Bob Silber. Took me a day. Cost him $200 as a WSO. Including the artwork. Go ahead - rip it to shreds. Oh thats right...I'm not supposed to mention it. Beating my own drum and all that.

[12holger34]

"being on target is much more important than being facile with words"

I haven't understand your intention, to write an article like this, but the sentence above I agree completly.

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by 12holger34

"being on target is much more important than being facile with words"

I haven't understand your intention, to write an article like this, but the sentence above I agree completly.

You got to the party late. Originally I was just telling these guys what I was up to and a few of them got all antsy with me 'cause I basically told them their copy was overpriced and they took too long to write it. Oh yeah - and one of them issued an infraction for "spamming". So I took a lot of stuff down. So now it doesn't make much sense. But a big part of the problem here, which I'm sure you'll understand (and I've offered a service in the Classified section on this), is that the humour (stet) and mindset is quite different between the U.S. and the Antipodes. When I say something tongue in cheek - they don't get it and take it at face value. Irony is completely lost on them as well. So now I've "got the hump" as the Poms say, taken my ball and gone home. But I'm still smiling. :-) 'cause, you know, I got a gig with you-know-who. And to paraphrase a Seppo ad "I'm loving it!"

[Scott Murdaugh]

I'm not trying to start an argument here...

And again, no disrespect.

I had a letter I wrote featured in that exact same spot for a good 2 weeks... I didn't come in here and brag about it... Mainly out of respect for the client, and also Allen.

To be fair, that product would sell with 200 words of copy and an order button. I'm not going to "rip it to shreds"... I'm sure it'll do its job, and that's to move some Halbert DVD's.

Would I have done it differently? Yes, but so would any other writer, we've all got our own styles.

I would have had a guarantee... I would have had a lot more bullets explaining specific benefits...

I would have used the P.S.'s, and taken advantage of the second most valuable real estate on the site.

I would have suggested a better scarcity tactic than "We Only Have 25 On Hand"... If this thing is being promoted on top of this forum how do I know it's not already sold out?

Again, I'm not trying to make enemies here, congrats on the job.

I've written for some very big players too... Guys you'd know if I mentioned them, but I don't, because I ghost wrote the letters for them.

One of the primary goals of writing for a guy like Frank Kern or any other big name is that they have the money to spend on effective copy...

Frank Kern could offer to hire me full time, but at $200 a letter I'd tell him to kiss my ass (No offense to Frank).

Trust me, at $200 a letter you're going to get burnt out and you're going to start hating your job... I know, it happened to me back when I was charging $500.


Good luck,

-Scott

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Scott Murdaugh

I'm not trying to start an argument here...

And again, no disrespect.

I had a letter I wrote featured in that exact same spot for a good 2 weeks... I didn't come in here and brag about it... Mainly out of respect for the client, and also Allen.

To be fair, that product would sell with 200 words of copy and an order button. I'm not going to "rip it to shreds"... I'm sure it'll do its job, and that's to move some Halbert DVD's.

Would I have done it differently? Yes, but so would any other writer, we've all got our own styles.

I would have had a guarantee... I would have had a lot more bullets explaining specific benefits...

I would have used the P.S.'s, and taken advantage of the second most valuable real estate on the site.

I would have suggested a better scarcity tactic than "We Only Have 25 On Hand"... If this thing is being promoted on top of this forum how do I know it's not already sold out?

Again, I'm not trying to make enemies here, congrats on the job.

I've written for some very big players too... Guys you'd know if I mentioned them, but I don't, because I ghost wrote the letters for them.

One of the primary goals of writing for a guy like Frank Kern or any other big name is that they have the money to spend on effective copy...

Frank Kern could offer to hire me full time, but at $200 a letter I'd tell him to kiss my ass (No offense to Frank).

Trust me, at $200 a letter you're going to get burnt out and you're going to start hating your job... I know, it happened to me back when I was charging $500.


Good luck,

-Scott

It was originally written as a plain vanilla WSO and then Bob decided to do a JV with Allen. I had no part in its current promotion. And you're missing the point. All you guys miss the point. Look beyond the $200 bucks. It's a loss-leader. You do know what that is I suppose? How many other I.M. guys do you think Bob knows? He represents a lot of the top echelon. Have a look at his client list for a clue. And BTW that was a $200 Warrior Forum Special Offer three or four months back. It was part of a deliberate plan. Gee...do you think it might have worked?

[Scott Murdaugh]

Look beyond the $200 bucks. It's a loss-leader.

I stand corrected...

I didn't know it was a WSO AND I assumed you were saying you enjoy writing for $200... As in that's your standard fee.

For a testimonial (and a foot in the door) from a guy like Kern, I'd do a sales letter on the cheap too.

Nice job.

Peace,

-Scott

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Scott Murdaugh

I stand corrected...

I didn't know it was a WSO AND I assumed you were saying you enjoy writing for $200... As in that's your standard fee.

For a testimonial (and a foot in the door) from a guy like Kern, I'd do a sales letter on the cheap too.

Nice job.

Peace,

-Scott

No mate. I don't do $200 WSOs any more. I'm running one at the moment for $833 - but I pick and choose what I want to do. And yeah - don't tell Kern this - but I would have done that gig just for bragging rights. I better shut up now - he's probably reading this. BTW thanks for your considered comments.

[SamKane]

=Oh yeah - and one of them issued an infraction for "spamming". So I took a lot of stuff down. So now it doesn't make much sense. But a big part of the problem here, which I'm sure you'll understand (and I've offered a service in the Classified section on this), is that the humour (stet) and mindset is quite different between the U.S. and the Antipodes. When I say something tongue in cheek - they don't get it and take it at face value. Irony is completely lost on them as well. So now I've "got the hump" as the Poms say, taken my ball and gone home. But I'm still smiling. :-) 'cause, you know, I got a gig with you-know-who. And to paraphrase a Seppo ad "I'm loving it!"

I don't think it's your whaked-out wit that goes over us "simple" Americans. Maybe some guys just noticed that you've changed your
tune about Frank Kern (who I've always admired) from Frank is a conman to Frank is the greatest person in the world.

It just took Frank sending you $2,500 to change your tune. Frank has always been a class-act. The FTC is wrong in many cases.

Now that you've changed your tune, will you go back and remove your old posts and articles bashing him.

here's a few:
Frank Kern Mass Control or Mass Con? - Nikki Catsouras ? Google Cash Detective review ? Frank Kern ? Unique baby names ? plentyoffish review ? poker chips

here's a quote from you, where you probably should have
researched the facts a bit, and let them percolate before
posting a rapid attack:

Malcom"Metronicity" Lambe says: "Check this out. Google "Frank Kern" either as a broad match without the inverted commas or an exact match with the inverted commas. You getting the same results I am? I'm in Paris but I'm seeing this blogpost right under Frank's Mass Con site. That must piss him off. Does it Frank? You there? I notice in your very latest video - they're getting much better technically BTW - you mention the FTC bust. I wonder whether that has anything to do with my outing you here huh? I know you're there buddy. Listen, no hard feelings - this is turning into some nice linkbait for me. As I said, I quite like you but you do tend to talk a lot of bull****. What was it your Abraham Lincoln said? - "You can fool some of the people some of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

[Scott Murdaugh]

Perhaps Frank could offer a challenge for the best letter. Best letter
wins ,xxx.

THAT would be fun! (count me in )

I'd be all over that. That'd be one of the very few copywriting contests that would get my full attention.

-Scott

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by SamKane

I don't think it's your whaked-out wit that goes over us "simple" Americans. Maybe some guys just noticed that you've changed your
tune about Frank Kern (who I've always admired) from Frank is a conman to Frank is the greatest person in the world.

It just took Frank sending you $2,500 to change your tune. Frank has always been a class-act. The FTC is wrong in many cases.

Now that you've changed your tune, will you go back and remove your old posts and articles bashing him.

here's a few:
Frank Kern Mass Control or Mass Con? - Nikki Catsouras ? Google Cash Detective review ? Frank Kern ? Unique baby names ? plentyoffish review ? poker chips

here's a quote from you, where you probably should have
researched the facts a bit, and let them percolate before
posting a rapid attack:

Malcom"Metronicity" Lambe says: "Check this out. Google "Frank Kern" either as a broad match without the inverted commas or an exact match with the inverted commas. You getting the same results I am? I'm in Paris but I'm seeing this blogpost right under Frank's Mass Con site. That must piss him off. Does it Frank? You there? I notice in your very latest video - they're getting much better technically BTW - you mention the FTC bust. I wonder whether that has anything to do with my outing you here huh? I know you're there buddy. Listen, no hard feelings - this is turning into some nice linkbait for me. As I said, I quite like you but you do tend to talk a lot of bull****. What was it your Abraham Lincoln said? - "You can fool some of the people some of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

You have no idea do you. The full story is I read Frank's post on his blog about the FTC bust in 2003 and realised I'd been wrong - that I'd just gone with the FTC judgement which is available online. I IMMEDIATELY emailed Frank, apologised and offered to retract and repost - which I did - last week. Go back and read them again. Since then we've exchanged emails and he said he admired my writing and offered me a gig. Its also on record that I admire HIS writing and his marketing but I got it wrong with the FTC thing. And again - those posts were done in a typical Aussie humour style - which obviously goes right over the top of your head. We don't take ourselves as seriously as you guys. We take the piss out of ourselves all the time. BTW if you go look at the WSO I'm running you'll see I've Frank's permission to say I've done a job for him. I've quoted him verbatim. And another BTW - I don't think Americans are "simple" - but you're sure as hell super-sensitive to any sort of criticism.

[colmodwyer]

I don't see how the original post was promotional.

It was self serving, sure. Mal was stroking his ego and he wanted his peers to start stroking too...

And so what!

Congrats are in order, not a verbal beat down.

What I will say though, Mal, is that you have somewhat brought this on yourself by trying to hide the fact you were bragging... With a half-arsed attempt to make your post informative.

In future, I recommend you just say - "I just got a gig with Frank Kern and I want to shout if from the roof tops!"

I think you'll avoid all this crap and retain more respect from fellow posters.

And if you want to make it valuable to other readers, say - "And if a guy that can't even take a friggin photo can get a gig with Frank Kern, then so can you!"

What inspiration!

And just so we're clear, I know there are two types of poster here...

Type #1 - Those busting your chops for saying you got a big name gig. Screw them! They're jealous.

Type #2 - Those busting your chops for saying you should crank a sales letter out in a day for pennies on the dollar. As someone who spends a week or more on a headline and lead... I'm in this camp... So damn you to hell!

That's my interpretation of events and opinion on the matter anyway.

Colm

P.S. Well done on getting the gig Mal. It's definitely a step in the right direction.

[Justin Mandel]

Fantastic news Mal!

Too bad though your rates are so stinking low

[Lance K]

Originally Posted by Lance K

Still cuirous about the title...



I guess it was stated that way for no other reason than to get views?

Originally Posted by Metronicity

Oh sorry...I thought I was on an internet marketing forum. My mistake.

You get paid to write copy and you equate writing a "shock" headline that has nothing to do with your message to marketing?

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by Metronicity

And again - those posts were done in a typical Aussie humour style - which obviously goes right over the top of your head. We don't take ourselves as seriously as you guys. We take the piss out of ourselves all the time..

I'm Australian and even I find your post an eye-roller.

I'm glad you got a gig with Kern... congrats. I get that you wanted people to know that. But as Ray said, you need to put it the right way.

Now you can turn around and do what you're doing - blame everyone else for how THEY are taking it - or you can realize that, as a copywriter, you need to learn to communicate effectively... and this post has NOT done that at all.

Plus you've taken all of Gary's points completely out of context to serve yourself.

And about those saying they'd write for Kern for free... I wouldn't.

I'd charge him my standard fee... because I respect myself and my work... and what am I saying about my skills if I take a gig for $200?

Plus... once you're seen as a budget copywriter by a client... it's very difficult to redefine that... as I'm sure any copywriter who used to write for cheap (myself included) will tell you.

So I'm not positive doing a WSO for Kern is really that good a career move... but I suppose that will be proven when and if you say "Hey, guess what... the next letter is twenty times more."

You're welcome to your opinion, of course... but showing blatant disrespect to anyone who disagrees with you (including guys like Vin and Ray... who have track records a mile long and are amazing salespeople) is just not cool.

-Dan

[The Copy Nazi]

I think you guys forget one thing - we're in the advertising business.

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Lance K

You get paid to write copy and you equate writing a "shock" headline that has nothing to do with your message to marketing?

Yeah completely shocking isn't it. Can you imagine the disappointment of some when they realise the headline is just a come-on in a thread in the backwaters of an internet marketing forum. Should be a law against it.

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

I'm Australian and even I find your post an eye-roller.

I'm glad you got a gig with Kern... congrats. I get that you wanted people to know that. But as Ray said, you need to put it the right way.

Now you can turn around and do what you're doing - blame everyone else for how THEY are taking it - or you can realize that, as a copywriter, you need to learn to communicate effectively... and this post has NOT done that at all.

Plus you've taken all of Gary's points completely out of context to serve yourself.

And about those saying they'd write for Kern for free... I wouldn't.

I'd charge him my standard fee... because I respect myself and my work... and what am I saying about my skills if I take a gig for $200?

Plus... once you're seen as a budget copywriter by a client... it's very difficult to redefine that... as I'm sure any copywriter who used to write for cheap (myself included) will tell you.

So I'm not positive doing a WSO for Kern is really that good a career move... but I suppose that will be proven when and if you say "Hey, guess what... the next letter is twenty times more."

You're welcome to your opinion, of course... but showing blatant disrespect to anyone who disagrees with you (including guys like Vin and Ray... who have track records a mile long and are amazing salespeople) is just not cool.

-Dan

Hang on...hang on. Where did you get the idea it was a WSO I've just done for Frank Kern? For the record - it's a sales letter for a new launch.

[Lance K]

Originally Posted by Metronicity

Yeah completely shocking isn't it. Can you imagine the disappointment of some when they realise the headline is just a come-on in a thread in the backwaters of an internet marketing forum. Should be a law against it.

Usually when someone uses a "come-on in" attention getter, it's followed by something pertaining to the statement made (if they want to be taken seriously).

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Lance K

Usually when someone uses a "come-on in" attention getter, it's followed by something pertaining to the statement made (if they want to be taken seriously).

It's a "come on" not a "come on in" - whatever that is. Definition: "Something offered to allure or attract". And who said anything about wanting to be taken seriously? I'm just here for the laughs.

[Harlan]

I was laughing at the way through this thing.

Frank's going to launch a new product and hire someone to do a sales letter.

And he's going to have a newbie do it.

Frank doesn't need anyone to write for him and...

In case you haven't noticed.

Frank doesn't use sales letters these days.

Just video.

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Harlan

I was laughing at the way through this thing.

Frank's going to launch a new product and hire someone to do a sales letter.

And he's going to have a newbie do it.

Frank doesn't need anyone to write for him and...

In case you haven't noticed.

Frank doesn't use sales letters these days.

Just video.

God the disdain is almost dripping off the page isn't it. You're wrong. On all counts. Except maybe the "newbie" bit. I'm five years new to I.M. copy after a career in traditional agency stuff. Depends what you call a newbie I suppose. Personally I don't use that word - smacks of arrogance. All of us at one stage or another were "newbies". As for the rest, all true. And in case YOU haven't noticed, Frank doesn't need anyone to write sales letters for him. But he'd rather be surfing or screwing off - as he puts it. And no, he doesn't just use video these days. And yes I fully expect him to, in his words

probably end up editing it, changing things up, and tweaking things a lot because I'm an obsessive wacko about **** like that.

I'm running a WSO at the moment. There's some pertinent stuff there that may or may not interest you.

Thank you so much for your kind and considered words my Lord. I remain your humble servant. M.

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan

Well, I don't think I have ever seen anyone on here use
a name drop as much as you are

I hope it works out well... many are watching

As a side note, did Frank tell you why he decided to bring you
on? Was it your style, rugged Aussie looks, referral, what?

I am NOT meaning "why the hell would he hire you?"

It's in the WSO - "Mate I've always been a great admirer of your surfing...I saw the vid of you taking off on that sick wave at Teahupoo".

No. Actually he replied to my apologetic email to him with

You're a damn fine writer, Mr. Lambe.

and it went from there. Maybe its just my ten seconds of fame eh?

Funny thing is...when I first joined the Warrior Forum I used to have as my signature "I taught Frank Kern everything he knows". I took it down after awhile thinking I was probably pushing the envelope and people wouldn't get that I was taking the piss, as we say.

[Collette]

Let's see if I can sum this up for all of us witless souls upon whom your brilliance and subtlety is lost:

"I wrote a cheap letter for Frank Kern.

Copywriters who charge more than $833 for a sales letter are expensive, charlatan rip-off artists. I am not one of those copywriters. I am cheap.

In fact, you really shouldn't pay a copywriter to write a sales letter for you - unless that copywriter is me. Because I am a copywriter who wrote a sales letter for Frank Kern.

And copywriters who take more than a couple of hours to slap together a sales letter, under the guise of providing value for their service - they're charlatan incompetents. I am not one of those copywriters. I'll throw something together in 90 minutes or less. And I will tell you it is unbelievably fooking brilliant. If you don't believe that is so, I will tell you again it is so. And then you will believe it is so. Because I believe it is so. And thus it shall be.

Because I wrote a letter for Frank Kern. What more proof do you need?

(Oh - and don't be surprised if the letter that Frank (for whom I wrote a sales letter) Kern eventually runs bears absolutely NO resemblance to the piece I slapped together for him. That does not detract one iota from my self-acknowledged awesomeness.)

Furthermore, copywriting is a service no sane marketer in their right mind should take seriously. Or pay anything over $200 for. Including Frank Kern. Especially Frank Kern.

(Did I mention that I just wrote a letter for Frank Kern?)

BTW: I also have a WSO running. For more than $200 dollars. Because I am worth more than $200. But other copywriters aren't. Because I wrote a letter for Frank Kern.

(I did mention that I wrote a letter for Frank Kern, right?)

And I have a WSO running. Which I desperately needed to pimp.

Which is why it's VERY. IMPORTANT. that you all know that I wrote a letter for Frank Kern.

You see, Frank Kern likes me. A lot. You need to know that. And Frank Kern and me... we're like that now... maybe I'll even Facebook friend him...

Because ever since I wrote a letter for Frank Kern, I'm like, the uber-cool, super-rad, consummate rebel copywriter. And awesome. Very, very awesome.

You may bow before me now. Incense burning may also be appropriate. Even more appropriate is to buy my WSO (which will cost you more than $200).

Or I may have to have a word with Frank Kern, and suggest that he blacklist you. And Frank Kern will listen to me because I wrote a letter for Frank Kern.

P.S. Don't be puzzled by the fact that I spent quite a bit of time trashing Frank before he paid me to write a letter for him. *Bygones* We're BFF now.

P.P.S. Psssst...I didn't want to mention this to Frank but, if he hadn't had the incredible foresight to hire me to write his sales letter, you can be sure he wouldn't have made a single lousy sale from his upcoming launch. He needs me, he does. And Frank Kern (for whom I wrote a sales letter) secretly knows he'd be an abject failure without my help."

[The Copy Nazi]

Boy...this one is just Pure Unadulterated Vitriol. You should bottle it and sell it. Online. With a good sales letter. But you're not following it. It wasn't a "cheap letter". Oh did I mention I just did a gig for Frank Kern?

[David Babineau]

Just Googled "Frank Kern" and this post is #32 (out of 589,000).

Seriously, we need a few more bolded Frank Kern mentions...

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by BargainCopywriter

Just Googled "Frank Kern" and this post is #32 (out of 589,000).

Seriously, we need a few more bolded Frank Kern mentions...

Hey good idea. I was just going to post "Why would I want to come here and "pimp my WSO" as my learned friend above suggests when there's only ever 30 people on line in this section at any one time - 29 of them being copywriters and the other guy is lost.