Where is this Sales Copy Weak?

[Joshua Uebergang]

Update: I'm open to working with a copywriter.

I've probably spent 100 hours on this copy for a conversation skills program. I'm no pro copywriter, but what I've got is based on research and I've put so much thought into it. Maybe the amount of time I've put into it has backfired into a copy piece too large.

Here it is: Big Talk: Effortlessly Talk to Win Friends with the Real You

Conversions were at 3% upon launching, but now it's plummeted to something like 0.5%, which I'm horrified by because it's not bad copy.

I'd like whatever feedback you have on it. I'm really stumped as to why conversions are crap.

[Justin Mandel]

Well if your actual conversion rate .5% then maybe It IS bad copy

The prehead and head is fine, but then things go down hill right after that - maybe that's why your conversion rate is so low:

Having transformed myself from a shy, quiet guy afraid of people to being confident, fun, and sociable, I'm writing to you as a friend because I can help you discover the below mysteries (all of which fixed social and conversation skills problems I experienced two years ago):

You need to pull the ego out of the letter and start talking to your readers and make THEM the target of the letter not you (at least if you want to make more sales).

Also your letter might set people off immediately pretty much from the get-go because you introduce yourself as their friend, but none of your readers probably know you so how exactly are you their friend?

If you spent 100 hours on this copy, next time it would probably be worth it to hire a pro - you should get better results both pre and post launch.

Also you will probably get more replies if you ask "please"

Best of Luck!

[travlinguy]

Your present pre-header is weak and so is the header. I'd get rid of the current pre-header and make the current headline your pre-header. And there is absolutely no need to have quotations around the headline or the ellipsis thingy (three periods in a row ...)

I have no idea why so many marketers are enamored with those two items but they look dopey to me when they aren't warranted. When writing (or doing anything for that matter) always ask yourself, what is this going to do for my presentation? And if you don't have a really good answer, leave it out.

Those changes will mean you'll need a new headline, one that shouts out the benefits of your offer. Something like: Win Friends and Influence People with your New Conversational Skills! Even that isn't great but it's more enticing than what you have now. Of course you won't want to steal from Dale Carnegie but you get my drift.

That's all I have time for, but as you already know, the headline is EXTREMELY important and yours is a liability as it stands. I briefly scanned the body of the text and much of what I read appears promising. I did see a couple of subject/verb agreement issues but a decent proofreader can correct that stuff. Good Luck!

[Alex Cohen]

Your present pre-header is weak and so is the header. I'd get rid of the current pre-header and make the current headline your pre-header. And there is absolutely no need to have quotations around the headline or the ellipsis thingy (three periods in a row ...)

I have no idea why so many marketers are enamored with those two items but they look dopey to me when they aren't warranted. When writing (or doing anything for that matter) always ask yourself, what is this going to do for my presentation? And if you don't have a really good answer, leave it out.

Numerous split tests have proven that quotations around the headline of an online sales letter increase response.

Alex

[jasonmorgan]

I think the entire page is too wordy... I'm not going to read any of that.

I think you could tighten up your main points some...

“Who Else Wants To Effortlessly Talk With Anyone And Make Them Like You When You Want?...”

get to the point faster... and that sentence reads like broken english, you want your words to flow... read the stuff out loud. Write it like you would say it.

Make friends and talk effortlessly with anyone!

Make friends and talk effortlessly with anyone! I'll teach you how!

Learn how to make friends and talk effortlessly with anyone!

another one...

Not Knowing What to Say to Anyone Guarantees You Feel Embarrassed and Frustrated with Mind-Blanks

could be...

Not Knowing What to Say Guarantees You Feel Embarrassed and Frustrated

or even...

Feel Embarrassed and Frustrated not knowing what to say?

anyhoo... lots of words I'm not going to read and not enough stuff jumps out at me and catches my attention.

You want your words to jump off the page, grab my attention and make a connection.


this, I'm assuming its from the author of the pdf your trying to sell... is gold.

If You're Desperate To Be Comfortable Around Strangers, Effortlessly Start And Keep Conversations Going, And Make Friends, This Might Be The Most Important Letter You'll Ever Read...

Might be a long sentence but it broken down into short, easy to read pieces that touch my inner wallflower.

[Daniel Scott]

Five seconds into reading I got a massive popup that not only broke my train out thought but that I couldn't close. I had to put in a bogus name/email address to get rid of it.

Strike one.

But even if that wasn't there... I had to read your headline about three times to understand it, and even then it didn't have any curiosity or interest

Strike two.

Your sentences are long, confusing and often redundant.

Strike three... you're out.

That's without mentioning the multitude of info that doesn't have to be there (which only serves to confuse your core message) etc.

In short you're making your reader do far too much work on this one. Make it easier for them by writing more effectively... cut out every single bit of fat on that page.

I'd bet anything it'll be reduced to one third the size.

Be ruthless. Cull everything that doesn't help your core message.

-Dan

[Matt James]

Joshua,

Your first 'sentence' is -- "Having transformed myself from a shy, quiet guy afraid of people to being confident, fun, and sociable, I'm writing to you as a friend because I can help you discover the below mysteries (all of which fixed social and conversation skills problems I experienced two years ago):"

And that is waaay too long.

Ignoring the headline (which as Dan said is confusing) you need your opening line to be short and to the point.

The purpose of the first line is to get folks to read the second line and so on...

[Joshua Uebergang]

Thank you guys. I know how important culling is, and I've already done some, but you've given me another lense to see more fat in the copy. It seems that's my main weakness I need to work on.

I tested very simliar items to what you wrote Jason. "Not Knowing What to Say to Anyone Guarantees You Feel Embarrassed and Frustrated with Mind-Blanks" won verse very similar versions of "Not Knowing What to Say Guarantees You Feel Embarrassed and Frustrated" and "Feel Embarrassed and Frustrated Being Lost For Words?". I can see what you're saying with the ego thing. My intent is to relate to them, but maybe they don't care like you said. Am I better off kicking straight into the bullets? "I can help you: bullet 1, etc."

If I hire a pro instead of spending hours writing and learning, I won't improve. It hurts to have my work torn down, but I know I need it in order to pull money in with my words.

"That's without mentioning the multitude of info that doesn't have to be there (which only serves to confuse your core message) etc." In your opinion Daniel, or anyone else's, what can be culled besides wordiness? I can kill 1/4 of the bullet points and eliminate unnecessary words throughout, but what else would get it to a third of its size?

Thanks again for all your input.

[Daniel Scott]

Joshua,

I get you want to improve. Just be aware that it will take a LOOONG time to get to the point where your copy is decent.

Unless you're disgustingly talented, of course.

I think a lot of your subheads and the text that accompanies them can be cut out.

The first half of your letter is kind of all over the place... and IMHO (though others may disagree) that many bullets is a bit much.

It ends up being an intimidating sea of text.

What I think would be a good exercise for you is to sit down with a blank piece of paper and "map out" the rough points you want to cover in your letter... then arrange them.

E.g.

<HEADLINE PACKAGE>
<INTRO - "I used to be like you>
<EMPATHISE WITH READER'S PAIN>
<CONTINUE STORY - "Here's what I did to fix my problem">

Etc etc

I map my copy out like that before I write it... and it really helps me keep it coherent, easy-to-comprehend and grouped together nicely.

I bet if you do that you'll find your letter cuts in half.

But don't look at you current letter when you do it

-Dan

[The Copy Nazi]

Joshua, way, way too long. And too hard to read. The head "Who else wants..." is so bloody trite - take it outside and shoot it. BTW shouldn't it be "...and make them like you WHENEVER you want"?

The pop-up is very annoying. And the vid is not doing you any favors.

You have the words "murder" and "murdered" in your copy. Get rid of them. They are murdering your pitch.

And I'll say it again - it's way too long. That's not a sales letter - that's a short story.

Start again - from scratch.

[travlinguy]

Originally Posted by Alex Cohen

Numerous split tests have proven that quotations around the headline of an online sales letter increase response.

Alex

Could you be any more vague? How about a reference or two, a link maybe. The bottom line here is that incorrect punctuation often slows the reader down - it's the sign of an amateur. And there are still plenty of readers out there that recognize it for what it is.

Testing shows that copy using the word 'discover' pulls better than 'learn' or the phrase 'find out.' So thousands of fledgling writers go light years out of their way to incorporate the word discover. And what they often end up with is an awkward sentence or headline - all so they can use a word that is believed to help conversions. Sometimes it's actually laughable.

When I see stuff in copy that blatantly doesn't fit I have to assume that the info in the product will be written that way as well. And unless I really, really, really feel that I have to have the info, I'll pass.

Some of the gurus use curse words in their copy. And when newbie writers see that they automatically think it's okay for them to do it as well.

What they don't understand is that the well-known marketer has a following and that many of his customers are buying the product despite the cursing and not because of it. Cursing is offensive to many people and will turn them away from a product more often than not. A good rule of thumb is, when in doubt, leave it out.

I'm not so old fashioned as to believe that every piece has to be sterile. There are certainly times when bending the rules not only fits, but is necessary. But it takes experience as a writer to know when to do so. The problem I see is that such stuff has become the rule rather than the exception. I guess I have to regularly remind myself that writing for the Web is a step or two removed from what I would consider 'mainstream' writing.

[Hugh Thyer]

Josh

You've obviously done a lot of work on it so well done.

Look, the feedback you've got is right on the mark.

I find your writing style not very conversational. Basically you've got to work out what you want to say...and the just say it. Your sentences dont roll off the tongue smoothly which means its not very conversational (ironic...for a letter on being able to hold down a conversation ).

What I found almost frustrating I guess is that I can see all the elements you need for a great letter hidden in there. You've got a killer story, great proof, strong guarantee etc. Your product is something that people will really want.

If I were you I'd hire a copywriter to rewrite it for you. That's not to say you can't do it, but copywriting isnt as easy as it looks. If this is one of your first efforts its probably a lot better than a lot of top copywriters wrote at the same stage, but every day you spend tinkering with this is money that is lost when people come to your site and leave empty handed.

It's probably not that difficult for someone to rewrite, simply because everything you need is in there, and it just needs to be written better.

However...if you want to do it yourself here's what I'd do...

First, find the 'big idea'. That's that special reason for someone to sit up and really want to read your letter and buy. What's the big benefit that people want...deep down. What are the biggest benefits YOU got? Did you get a great job, start dating a hot chick and have everyone in awe of you once you learnt these skills? That big idea's in there, you just have to uncover it and it'll take some time.

Next, pick an opening from here:
http://www.thegaryhalbertletter.com/...Newsletter.pdf

Then launch into your story. Focus on the benefits you got and your buyer will get. Far more important than your actual product.

Look tell them about your product including why you produced it, the benefits then reveal the price, bonuses, guarantee, close, how to order and PSes.

Its basic, but it should get you by.

Oh, and finally junk it up. Its not very friendly on the eye so use different fonts, colours etc to emphaise key points and reduce eye fatigue.

And dont tell them it'll take 15 minutes to read. That'll scare people off from the start!

Feel free to PM if you've got any questions about this. Us Aussies gotta stick together.

Hugh

[Daniel Scott]

When I started as Vin's student... the first thing he told me to do was add quotation marks around my headlines.

The second was to use "..." instead of a comma whenever possible. It draws the eye better.

I think a lot of this stuff is done for the sake of visual interest rather than any grammatical reason... but it converts.

Remember that this is a very visual medium... in many ways. Since people are scanning, often a lot more visual than other print media.

-Dan

Originally Posted by travlinguy

Could you be any more vague? How about a reference or two, a link maybe. The bottom line here is that incorrect punctuation often slows the reader down - it's the sign of an amateur. And there are still plenty of readers out there that recognize it for what it is.

Testing shows that copy using the word 'discover' pulls better than 'learn' or the phrase 'find out.' So thousands of fledgling writers go light years out of their way to incorporate the word discover. And what they often end up with is an awkward sentence or headline - all so they can use a word that is believed to help conversions. Sometimes it's actually laughable.

When I see stuff in copy that blatantly doesn't fit I have to assume that the info in the product will be written that way as well. And unless I really, really, really feel that I have to have the info, I'll pass.

Some of the gurus use curse words in their copy. And when newbie writers see that they automatically think it's okay for them to do it as well.

What they don't understand is that the well-known marketer has a following and that many of his customers are buying the product despite the cursing and not because of it. Cursing is offensive to many people and will turn them away from a product more often than not. A good rule of thumb is, when in doubt, leave it out.

I'm not so old fashioned as to believe that every piece has to be sterile. There are certainly times when bending the rules not only fits, but is necessary. But it takes experience as a writer to know when to do so. The problem I see is that such stuff has become the rule rather than the exception. I guess I have to regularly remind myself that writing for the Web is a step or two removed from what I would consider 'mainstream' writing.

[Joshua Uebergang]

Okay guys. Now that my self-esteem is diminished, I'm thinking about getting a warrior copywriter to rewrite it. What I've provided already is more transparent than most copywriting requests. I think you also got yourself a fine foundation for reference even if you demolish it. You'll get whatever you need like the product, access to survey data, etc. PM me your offer.

What matters is results. Obviously. If you can't make a risk-free guarantee that'll bring me in more money than what you're paid, don't bother applying. Heck, I'm willing to sought out a commission structure into the thousands with you if you can bring that money in with high conversions. I've never hired a copywriter before so I'm after a risk-free offer.

I look forward to hearing from you.

[Raydal]

Originally Posted by Joshua Uebergang

What matters is results. Obviously. If you can't make a risk-free guarantee that'll bring me in more money than what you're paid, don't bother applying. Heck, I'm willing to sought out a commission structure into the thousands with you if you can bring that money in with high conversions. I've never hired a copywriter before so I'm after a risk-free offer.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Joshua,

So you are asking for a copywriter to write for you and guarantee
that you make money before they get paid for their work? This
is an interesting arrangement.

I'll do the letter for $25K with the guarantee that you triple
your conversion. Let me know.

-Ray Edwards

[Alex Cohen]

Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan

Dan, quotations are certainly not the issue here

Joshua, do you have a back-end, high-ticket video product or coaching program the copywriter will also get a percentage of?

Alex

[KenThompson]

Originally Posted by Raydal

Joshua,

So you are asking for a copywriter to write for you and guarantee
that you make money before they get paid for their work? This
is an interesting arrangement.

I'll do the letter for $25K with the guarantee that you triple
your conversion. Let me know.

-Ray Edwards

Ray, you stated what I was thinking! Well done, man.

[Scott Murdaugh]

What matters is results. Obviously. If you can't make a risk-free guarantee that'll bring me in more money than what you're paid, don't bother applying. Heck, I'm willing to sought out a commission structure into the thousands with you if you can bring that money in with high conversions. I've never hired a copywriter before so I'm after a risk-free offer.

Josh,

Not to burst your bubble here, but a copywriter CAN'T guarantee results.

I don't know your traffic. I don't know your experience level at driving traffic.

But you're shooting yourself in the foot looking for a "risk-free" offer... Most copywriters worth their salt are booked up months ahead and paid in advance.

If you can't make a risk-free guarantee that'll bring me in more money than what you're paid, don't bother applying.

How do I know you'll even test the page? How do I know the product isn't complete garbage?

Okay, let's talk commission deals, I do those.

To get me on board requires a down payment of $x,xxx, and then we discuss revenue sharing...

Again, how do I know I can trust you? What's your experience like driving traffic?

I have a website and references and proof that I've delivered results for clients... What do you have to bring to the table?

I'm not trying to be smug... But with terms like that you're either going to have to prove your abilities to deliver on your end, or you're going to have to go with a "me too" copywriter who's starving for work and willing to take any kind of deal. (Hint: That's not the kind of copywriter you want.)

I'm not criticizing Alex btw, I'm sure he'd have the exact same questions as I would.

The bottom line... Good copywriters stay busy. Throw "risk-free" out the window... Good copywriters are professionals, they're not Wal-Mart.

We've got clients lined up and paying, and then coming back for more... So the "risk-free" offer isn't going to get you a decent copywriter.

A commission deal *maybe*... But if you can't trust me with a deposit why should I trust you to pay when the commissions are owed?

I'm not bashing your post, I'm just bringing up some very valid concerns that any serious copywriter would have with your terms.

Thanks,

-Scott

[Joshua Uebergang]

I can see what you're saying Scott. Some copywriters will hate that and that's fine. I just won't work with them.

It's got little to do with trust. What I'm saying is if you're uncomfortable eliminating the risk for me, then what are your skills worth? I'm not going to compensate for someone's ego. I'm not going to pay someone I don't know $5000 in hope of better results because they tell me I should. Think of how it relates to a normal product purchase.

When I coach people face-to-face for thousands, they're more than welcome to ask for a full refund. I don't know their situation, I don't know their skills. What I do know is I'll generate the results they want because that's the bottom line of the transaction.

About the traffic, good point. I never thought of that and I can see how that concerns copywriters like yourself. That's something I need to mention for warriors messaging me. 50-1000 a day.

My line of thinking was something like $2000+ (or whatever) payment that comes from the increased sales based on conversion rates. You generate $2000 in extra sales, for example, you get that. For most good copywriters, I thought this would be an irresistable offer!

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Joshua Uebergang

My line of thinking was something like $2000+ (or whatever) payment that comes from the increased sales based on conversion rates. You generate $2000 in extra sales, for example, you get that. For most good copywriters, I thought this would be an irresistable offer!

Well, what's in that for YOU? When a deal sounds too good to be true... it probably is.

Let me lay out how someone can completely screw this up.

You have someone write a page, and agree that all the "extra" sales they generate go to them.

Then you stick a downsell behind your payment link for a different product which is better and cheaper.

All your customers buy the downsell, not the original product. It's a no-brainer. Now sales of your product have gone down, not up, so you don't owe the copywriter anything. Meanwhile, the higher quality copywriting is converting people for your downsell like never before, and you laugh all the way to the bank.

That's my big concern. If the deal sounds like I get all the money and you get nothing, I have to start looking for your angle, and - as a bit of an amateur magician - I tend to know quite a lot about how confidence games. Even if you're completely honest and have no "angle" to speak of, I can usually find the place a dishonest person would hide one.

I just keep it simple. I have a flat fee, and you pay on delivery. Until you have the copy in hand, you don't pay a dime. Once you get it and pay, I'm willing to do a little ongoing support - like if you do a new version of your product within a couple weeks, I'll edit the bullets as a courtesy - but there are just too many variables to guarantee specific results.

[jennifermL]

The only way to know if the body of your sales copy is weak is to test it. The conventional way of testing your sales copy is to have multiple copies and test them individually, or you can use software like split hit, which will divide your traffic up and send it to multiple sale copies at once.
Eventually you will be able to determine which sales copy pulls more, but you won't know exactly where the weaknesses are in your other sales copies. Especially, if you have a long sales copy. Moreover, conventional ways of testing your sales copy will not identify where the weakness actually is, until now.
A good sales copy will have several links throughout the body of it, to display examples and ordering purposes. Since the links are already in the body of your sales copy, you can take advantage of them by tracking all of the links. Why? By tracking the links you will know what your visitors are clicking on and what they're not. By using this technique you will know precisely where your weak spots are, so all you'll have to do is tweak them.



Thanks...

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by Joshua Uebergang

My line of thinking was something like $2000+ (or whatever) payment that comes from the increased sales based on conversion rates. You generate $2000 in extra sales, for example, you get that. For most good copywriters, I thought this would be an irresistable offer!

Here's where things get sticky...

Joshua, I don't know you. I don't know your past successes (if any)... I don't even know how much traffic your site gets.

You could tell me, but there's nothing to say you're telling the truth.

Now, I send three weeks working my ass off writing you killer copy... I've fulfilled my part of the bargain.

Now, let's assume you're honest and pay what you owe (and again... none of us really know that about you for sure... so there's a MAJOR sticking point).

I write you killer copy... then you edit it because you "think it's better" and kill conversions. Or you drive poorly targeted traffic (or no traffic at all). Or you don't put an order link in properly. Etc etc...

In ANY of these scenarios, I've done as requested... but I won't be paid for it.

That's why most good copywriters don't work on spec.

As Scott said... I might be persuaded to take a fee + commission offer... but it's going to be a couple of grand up front and the total fee will be higher than if you paid up front.

Plus... I'm already booked up a decent way with clients because I get killer results. Why would I (or any other in-demand copywriter) take your job that may not even pay?

Every piece of copy I write... my reputation's on the line. I have a huge investment in it already.

If you don't pony up any cash... there's no investment in it for you... which means you're more likely to not use it or use it badly.

And then I lose.

Those are just some of the reasons that this isn't an "irresistible offer" to "most good copywriters"... because most good copywriters have enough work as it is no to take such a huge gamble with their business.

None of this is a dig, by the way. I'm just pointing out why you're probably not getting much interest... showing the other side of the coin and all that.

-Dan

P.S. Plus... my fee (depending on the project) is somewhere around $5 000 a letter. If you're driving 100/hits a day... it's going to take a LOOOONG time for me to see that cash

[Loren Woirhaye]

It's weak in the headline... sort of convoluted and awkward.

Your strongest subhead, IMO, is "Are You Tongue-Tied at Parties?"

You've been working on this for awhile as I recall. I think I saw
a version of this a year ago or something.

Actually the "make friends" appeal is very old and time-tested:
play the piano, tell jokes, be the life of the party, pick-up
girls, progress in your career, be a man's man... these appeals
are common in old advertising.

Your error here is, I think, you are shooting at the wrong target.
It's kind of hard to explain... it's like you're trying to mow your
lawn with an edger.

Further down the page the letter gains some strength.... but man,
that's a long letter.

What would you do if you wanted to mail this? Postage would
kill you. The standard direct mail letter for a Nightingale-Conant
type package is a 4 pager with a lift letter, order form, brochure...

If you target this right you don't need a long "kitchen sink"
letter. Get it in front of the people who need it... and GET
their attention. To my eye that's where you're struggling.


Also, take out that check-box thing that won't let you
click on the order button. That strikes me as really
annoying and a sales-killer. If you've tested and proven
to yourself that it's a good thing, ok then, but I think
it's dumb.

[Ross Bowring]

Hi Joshua,

I think your video is hurting you. No offense... (and I mean that, I just want you to make a ton of cash) but you come across a little awkward. Not as the uber-confident social operator you claim to have become. That's easy to do if you haven't done a lot of video.

Get your lines down pat. Have the shot tighter in on your shoulders and face and try again. And pretend you're talking to your best friend in the world. Always works for me.

If you are going to use the video then cut in some stockphoto footage of people having a roaring good time over drinks... at a restaurant... happily chatting at a conference.

Overall, the page looks too text-intensive. Lessen the intimidation factor with more white space and bullet "breaks".

Hope this helps.

Ross

[R.T.Bucher]

If I may add my two cents worth for what's it worth.

How bout this for a headline.

"How to Instantly Connect with Anyone Even
Perfect Strangers and Spark a Conversation Effortlessly"

-R.T.