Has there ever been a Copywriter contest here?

[Mike Anthony]

I'm not talking about Allen's impromptu contest of a few weeks ago. I mean an annual thing where one poor shmuck who doesn't have the cash but a great idea has his product put before this forum. Anyone can write some copy for him/her and then a winner is selected.

No need for a cash prize ( maybe a revenue share). Think it would be great service to the board and haven't seen anything like it. Done some copy work back in the day and would really like to sink my teeth into something like that to help me repolish some skills.

[Justin Mandel]

It doesn't make sense to me to have people participate...

Why compete for nothing in the first place?

Plus who would this really benefit and at what cost (time, energy, other opportunities) would this be to the participants?

Why not just rewrite a bad CB product salespage with a great market driven product, become an affiliate, and drive traffic to your salesletter?

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by Justin Mandel

It doesn't make sense to me to have people participate...

Why compete for nothing in the first place? ?

Well for one it isn't nothing. I would think the winner would get pretty good PR from it plus revenue share on a new product isn't nothing.

Plus who would this really benefit and at what cost (time, energy, other opportunities) would this be to the participants?

Lets see - the poor shmuck that doesn't have a couple of thouand dollars in his back pocket who copywriters have been telling in their copy how easy it is to make money.

Why not just rewrite a bad CB product salespage with a great market driven product, become an affiliate, and drive traffic to your salesletter?

because you can do that as well and this helps another human being that needs it. I Mean goodness lots of copywriters here claim they make $4,000-$10,000 a page and are busy through the year. With that kind of cash whats the big objection to giving something back to Warriors forum.

You ARE going to die and leave the money behind soooner or later can't hurt to help someone and have the fun of going up against others to see how good you are.

[Zach Booker]

Maybe this would work.

But I can tell you for certain no truly good copywriter would particapate.

It'd simply be a waste of their time.

Copywriters, I imagine, like dealing with people who know what their doing. (And who thus can afford their 1-100k prices.)

Dealing with someone completely new would result in many a headaches and would give no benefit, because most likely the product would fail in the end, for the copywriter.

There's so much more then simply a sales page that goes into a product. It's simply the cover.

If the person, like you seem to portray, has no cash how will he get JV partners interested, make the product, pay for the hosting, the Clickbank fees, etc etc,.

If there's one thing I've learned in the past year or so being in the IM industry is that those who truly want to succeed and those who really want it bad enough - get it.

Simple as that. Doesn't matter how broke they are. They just do it. They turn nothing into something.

If I was a copywriter i'd rather give some guy, who was super determined and worked his ass off, a discounted rate. That'd be my good deed - and it'd sure be a lot more likely to succeed.

Zach

[Mike Anthony]

Point taken Zach but really depends on how many "good copywriters" you actually think there are here. I don't think all of them would participate but I wasn't suggesting that you just pull a guy out of thin air. Some great products are put up first as a WSO so its not like there would be no track record or cash. I didn't rule out cash just said it didn't necessarily need to have a cash prize - maybe I am wrong there).

Since there is resistance to this perhaps make it a young or New copywriters contest? I would think the exposure would be highly profitable given that some people start out with offers here below a thousand some even sub $500.

My other reason for wanting to see something like this is - theres a whole lot of people claiming a lot of things and a contest is a place to see who really is skilled and who isn't.

[Mike Anthony]

Incidentally I would take issue with your statement

"Simple as that. Doesn't matter how broke they are. They just do it. They turn nothing into something."

Thats cheerleading fluffy head in the clouds not on earth kind of copy. I know lots of great people in my life with all kinds of skills who never got to where they wanted to be because they had to help family, take care of kids or made other dream destroying sacrifices.

[Daniel Scott]

Here's the bottom line...

This is a business.

Now, not everyone is cut out for business.

But if someone thinks they're going to make a successful business with no investment of capital... well, that's just silly.

You wouldn't try to open a restaurant if you were broke... why do people think they can start an online business?

Yes, it CAN be done with little to no capital... but that's the exception, not the rule.

And let's face it... if they don't have the cash for copy they don't have the cash to market the product successfully which means they're just wasting everybody's time.

I'm not going to put paying clients on hold to enter a contest where I maybe might if I'm lucky get some free exposure.

I'm booked bumper to bumper bar one spot for the rest of the year as it is... and I would assume most good copywriters are in the same boat.

We all have responsibilities to take care of and contests aren't high on my list.

Having said all that... I don't think it's a bad idea, necessarily... but there has to be a substantial prize and a LOT of press for it to be worthwhile.

I am, after all, running a business.

Don't forget most of us take 2 - 3 weeks to write copy... that's a big investment. We have to know the risk/reward ratio is worthwhile.

-Dan

[travlinguy]

I think it's a good idea. I'm not sure about the poor schumk part. But I think out of the thousands of members here a worthy person could be found and arrangements could be made so everyone got something out of it. And even if the contest didn't attract the top writers, there would still be plenty of talent competing.

I think there are probably a lot of sleepers lurking on WF. I read some very impressive sales copy last night where a gal on the main board was asking for an opinion on the price of her product. I read her page and it was excellent for the market she was pursuing.

This would be an excellent way for up-and-coming writers to showcase their stuff. Maybe we'd see the Susan Boyle of copywriters win the thing. I read a couple of entries from the last competition and they were impressive...

[Scott Murdaugh]

I'd enter a copywriting contest given 6 conditions...

1. The product must be good and already recieving substantial traffic... 300 targeted uniques a day or more.

2. The entrants must be limited to 5 copywriters or less.

3. The winning letter is picked on conversions... And the tracking would be transparent for all involved.

4. The winner was paid a share of profits off of the site for x amount of time.

5. I had time for it... Right now I don't.

6. The contest holder must be established/well known and trustworthy enough to deliver royalties to the winner, and agree to use the winning copy for x amount of time.

-Scott

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

theres a whole lot of people claiming a lot of things and a contest is a place to see who really is skilled and who isn't.

There's already a contest for that...

...it's called the MARKETPLACE.

Remember...

There's a litany of reasons why
a particular piece of copy might
bomb... from weak or untargeted
traffic sources, to poor design,
even just bad timing.

There's also a variety of reasons why
even mediocre copy can SLAY in the
marketplace and haul in big paydays
for everyone involved...

...and in those situations it's not really
about who has "copy skillz"...

Don't get me wrong, Mike... I'm not
flinging poo at your idea.

Unfortunately, it's just framed in a
way that is unlikely to get people to
"buy-in" the way you'd like them to.

Good luck with it if you do it.

Best,

Brian

[Oh_Facts]

This seems like a good idea.

Could give an 'unknown quite a bump in business.

Or even a new 'biz model.

John Carlton said he started while wondering what to do, while on a couch in San Diego many years ago....

Now there was a little 'serendipity!

M

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

There is something I've learned in my years of copywriting, and that is - no offense intended to anyone here - but if you can't afford a $1000+ copywriter, one of two things is going on.

Either A - you have no need for one, because you're selling a $7 product in a niche like IM...

Or B - Even when you get the sales copy, getting it cheap (or even free) isn't going to help you one bit. Why? Because you probably don't know what to do with it, can't afford to do the right things with it anyway, and will just end up disappointed.

A lot of copywriters make sales copy out to be the "magic bullet" - but it isn't all copy. And if you can't make your product sell with crap copy, then someone coming in and offering to write you a killer salesletter for chump change isn't going to turn you into an overnight millionaire.

Chances are, in fact, that despite that copywriter's best efforts, even if the sales letter WOULD get something huge like a 50% conversion rate on well targeted traffic, that you'll never make a dime from it.

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is if you can't afford a real copywriter, there is a reason. It isn't something "wrong" with you, and chances are it isn't even your fault. But your business hasn't evolved to the point yet where outsourcing copy would be a good VALUE for you, because you don't have the other components in place yet.

And no good copywriter, not for free, or for money, would take on a project that will never see results.

So essentially, your idea is very flawed. No good copywriter would bother to take on something like this for anyone less than a marketing superstar, and no newbie should bother to try getting free copy. They have a lot of other things to learn first.

Just my 2c.

- Cherilyn

[Kay King]

You ARE going to die and leave the money behind soooner or later can't hurt to help someone and have the fun of going up against others to see how good you are.

Are you serious?

The best writers here don't have to say so - others already know it. You'd be surprised how many help others here - but not because someone tells them they "should".

Instead, they do it behind the scenes when they see another person who is working hard on his own and deserves a boost.

kay

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

But if someone thinks they're going to make a successful business with no investment of capital... well, that's just silly.

I'm trying to figure out where I said any such thing. I implied it would be a product already created that people thought was pretty good. I then went on to say that that it could be from a succesfull WSO. So yeah quite a bit of capital would have to be involved although I don't think it has to be cash exclusively. It can be ingenuity and hard work.

I'm not going to put paying clients on hold to enter a contest where I maybe might if I'm lucky get some free exposure. I'm booked bumper to bumper bar one spot for the rest of the year as it is... and I would assume most good copywriters are in the same boat. We all have responsibilities to take care of and contests aren't high on my list.

Did I hit some nerve or something with you? I didn't call any copywriters out by name so if it doesn't fit your bill then whats the harm friend? You almost seem offended at the idea and I can't get where it challenges you. Even said it would be good for new or young copywriters.

You know if you are busy and your clients know if they booked you. No need to convince me of anything. I mean I'm just floating an idea. thats all.

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kay King

Are you serious?

I don't write things I am not serious about unless I am telling a joke. You going to vouch for every one that posts here claiming to be a great or good copywriter? Thats all I meant. If I called out names you'd have a point. I didn't. I didn't even come close.

The best writers here don't have to say so - others already know it. You'd be surprised how many help others here - but not because someone tells them they "should".

Again if I said anything about "should" you would have a point. I said nothing about that. Why in the world are a bunch of you so touchy about this? I know there was a guy a few weeks back questioning why copywriters didn't get into the "War room" contest but I wasn't doing anything like that. Just a suggestion I was throwing out there.

I will say one thing. I'd bet that there are at least one or two copywriters here who have written some copy about pulling down some major bucks monthly by buying and using a product (this being an IM board thats a fair bet) that sold for under $100 so why would you look down your noses at someone who doesn't have $5000 to hire a copywriter? You write to them and they make your industry. The need to have that kind of money laying around isn't something I see in IM sales copy too often.

Guys, Don't look down your noses at the people who feed you. I have my standards too but we all started somewhere and frankly if you have never been in a position where you didn't have $5000 to spare you can't even relate to the people you are writing copy to reach (particularly if you write to the "make money online" segment).

Bottom line. It was just an idea guys. Stop taking it as some kind of call out. It wasn't that at all.

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

Don't get me wrong, Mike... I'm not
flinging poo at your idea.

Unfortunately, it's just framed in a
way that is unlikely to get people to
"buy-in" the way you'd like them to.

Good luck with it if you do it.

No big deal Brian. I wasn't really trying to "frame" it. Just an idea So I asked a question. I never even thought of trying to make anyone "buy in".

It wasn't meant to be sales copy

Maybe a variation on it would be more fun. Like say a headline contest. Much less time consuming and given the amount of time I see people giving to critiques shouldn't be taxing. Headlines are alot of fun too.

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by travlinguy

I think it's a good idea. I'm not sure about the poor schumk part. But I think out of the thousands of members here a worthy person could be found and arrangements could be made so everyone got something out of it. And even if the contest didn't attract the top writers, there would still be plenty of talent competing.

The Schmuck part wasn't meant literally . I mean A guy or gal with a great enough idea wouldn't be in that category. But you got the sense of it.

5. I had time for it... Right now I don't.

6. The contest holder must be established/well known and trustworthy enough to deliver royalties to the winner, and agree to use the winning copy for x amount of time.

Thanks Scott. All fair points. Really appreciate putting some thought into it without the knee jerk reactions. It was and is just an idea in germ form and as I've said I can see it more for new/young or returning copywriters. Can't see the downside there.

[Kay King]

you look down your noses at someone who doesn't have $5000 to hire a copywriter

I don't see anyone looking down their noses - I see people who are busy and don't have the time or inclination to do for free what they earn a living doing. To me, the quote above is an entitlement mentality.

If I can't buy a Mercedes that doesn't mean the car price should be reduced or the car given to me for free because I can't afford it - it means I need to buy a cheaper car.

vouch for every one that posts here claiming to be a great or good copywriter

That was my point - if they have to keep claiming it, they may not be all that great. Or maybe they are....

kay

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kay King

I don't see anyone looking down their noses - I see people who are busy and don't have the time or inclination to do for free what they earn a living doing. To me, the quote above is an entitlement mentality.

This has nothing to do with entitlement. Kay you are obviously responding to someone else. You've got your mind kind of stuck there. You've got this idea in your head that this is another get something for nothing sit on my rear end and ask "could someone show me how to make money online" request and nothing will get you out of that "mentality".

Its nothing of the sort Kay. Its a contest. Thats all. You choose an outstanding product that someone has put in the hard work and creativity into - aka working long, hard and intelligently - and you get copywriters who have the time (if they do they do if some don't they don't) and who may want some exposure (even Daniel claims it may be worth it if theres "good press" so some other copywriters who are less offended/busy would maybe need less).

Scott had some excellent points on how you would need to structure it but others like yourself seem to have objection on this entitlement argument you think it represents I guess because I used the term "poor schmuck".

And of course there is looking down noses. When you imply that someone shouldn't be in business if they can't pay me my $5000 fee you are looking at them financially as beneath you and particularly when you are objecting to ONE person not paying the fee per year. You didn't comment on the lack of that "requirement" for capital in so much (ALL) of the sales copy in IM.

If I can't buy a Mercedes that doesn't mean the car price should be reduced or the car given to me for free because I can't afford it - it means I need to buy a cheaper car.

Contests are run every year where people get prizes equal to or greater than a Mercedes and yet the price of a mercedes hasn't been lowered so everyone can afford one. See man, this is what I thought. You think this is all about getting something for someone for nothing. Wrong . Its an opportunity to help ONE individual for the entire year who has come up with an outstanding product and a way for copywriters to become better going head to head and learning from each other . Is there anyone like Halbert here that could claim he/she couldn't benefit from the experience - IF THEY SO CHOOSE (because I never used the word should anywhere like you claimed).

That was my point - if they have to keep claiming it, they may not be all that great. Or maybe they are....

kay

That was my point - the claims made by them or on their behalf don't mean that they are either good, great or mediocre. Frankly since we've been pretty free with attaching motives and mentalities I've seen what looks like more posturing going on in this section of the forum than anywhere else - well except the SEO sections

and it might be that a contest wouldn't help the posturing at all?

At any rate since about my third post I've suggested it would be great then for young or new copywriters needing the exposure. Whats the objection there?

[MikeHumphreys]

There's been other copywriting contests run outside of the Warrior Forum but all of them had some type of top prize. A few had a basic fee paid out to each contestant so they got paid something for the dozens of hours of work that they were going to do creating the salesletters for the contest.

In the case of Clayton Makepeace's contest that I won last year, it was picking anything I wanted out of his online store as a prize (I went with his $7500 mega-package).

The one problem I see with your contest idea that no one else has mentioned yet is client accountability. If someone is getting free copy, then they aren't real motivated to use it. To borrow a poker analogy... if they have some skin in the game, then they will be likely to put it up and use it.

The salesletter that converts best might not be the prettiest... or the one that the client likes the most. I have one salesletter that sells a non-IM product of mine that I wrote years ago... it's ugly by my current standards but it converts around 5% on the average and has for years... so I don't touch it or show it to anyone else.

Take some of the advice that you've gotten so far... come up with some type of desireable prize and you may have the framework for a real copywriting contest.

Best of luck,

Mike

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

The one problem I see with your contest idea that no one else has mentioned yet is client accountability.

Yes. Scott alluded to it and its a valid point.

The salesletter that converts best might not be the prettiest... or the one that the client likes the most. I have one salesletter that sells a non-IM product of mine that I wrote years ago... it's ugly by my current standards but it converts around 5% on the average and has for years... so I don't touch it or show it to anyone else.

I know what you mean Mike. I just jumped back in and wrote some copy for my new application and I'm not too thrilled with the headline but although its still early its converting at 9% so I am loathe to touch it. But no my idea if anyone was going to vote on it would be the general Warrior forum not the "client" or other copywriters. If its from a WSO the target market would be there.

Take some of the advice that you've gotten so far... come up with some type of desireable prize and you may have the framework for a real copywriting contest.

Yes and no. Scott and one or two others had some good advice but I really wouldn't be interested in coming up with a prize if at least some of the motivation wasn't helping some other DESERVING Warrior member. What would be the point? Hasn't the reason some objected been because they don't have the time and a good copywriter is busy with clients. Time would magically open up then for a high prize? I certainly wouldn't be opening my wallet to entertain that kind of contradiction.

I quite like the idea of new and young copywriters. They aren't generally all booked up. They are not necessaily inferior and you might see more entertaining ideas. Provided the conversion rates are in order theres not much more you need.


Best of luck to you too Mike.

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

Unfortunately, there is a difference between "deserving" and "willing and able to drive adequate traffic to see viable testing results".

And just for the record, almost anyone who CAN drive adequate traffic, can also afford a copywriter.

Hence the entire point of my response, which seems to have been entirely looked over - a contest like this won't help anyone. Not the copywriter, or the recipient of the copy.

The recipient likely can't drive adequate traffic to test properly, so chances are he'll be disappointed in his results because he won't make monster cash.

And because the recipient can't test properly, the copywriter won't get any exposure because there will be no clear winner.

It really sounds like lose-lose to me.

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

I'm trying to figure out where I said any such thing. I implied it would be a product already created that people thought was pretty good. I then went on to say that that it could be from a succesfull WSO. So yeah quite a bit of capital would have to be involved although I don't think it has to be cash exclusively. It can be ingenuity and hard work.

I'm not meaning you, specifically.

And for the record... most people put in hard work and ingenuity. Almost everyone with a worthwhile product.

But if you want to be successful, as you probably know, you need more than that.

You also need either money or a LOT of free time (which eventually turns into money, but a lot slower).

But essentially at some point you've gotta start re-investing into your biz.

Plus... I'm yet to meet anyone who works their tail off in a focused way for a couple of years and doesn't have anything to show for it.

Some people make excuses... some people get stuff done. The second type of people is who I want as clients... and it happens that they're also usually the ones with money.

[/quote] Did I hit some nerve or something with you? I didn't call any copywriters out by name so if it doesn't fit your bill then whats the harm friend? You almost seem offended at the idea and I can't get where it challenges you. Even said it would be good for new or young copywriters.

You know if you are busy and your clients know if they booked you. No need to convince me of anything. I mean I'm just floating an idea. thats all.[/QUOTE]

I'm not offended. I was just trying to make a few points. Namely...

1. Why contests like this don't usually "get off the ground" unless there's a big reward involved (ie. contests from Clayton Makepeace etc).

2. Why writing copy for someone who is broke probably wouldn't be hepful for anyone (which Cherilyn said much more succinctly in a later post).

3. Why most good copywriters wouldn't enter unless there was a significant risk/reward ratio

That's all. I'm not taking shots at you at all. I'm just discussing the question you asked.

-Dan

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by Cherilyn Woodhouse

Unfortunately, there is a difference between "deserving" and "willing and able to drive adequate traffic to see viable testing results".

And just for the record, almost anyone who CAN drive adequate traffic, can also afford a copywriter

um....

Exactly how much money does your customer have to blow through in order to figure out that your copy is better than what he has? What do you do run an extended split test on the most expensive keywords on the most expensive networks? Honestly Cherilyn you are just making up assumptions for objection sake. Either that or you are too busy objecting you didn't read. You assumptions are exactly why I didn't bother answering you before. Whats the point? You have your reason apparently for coming up with all these assumptions and it really doesn't matter to me. Logically flawed? Regularly at times in my life but take a look at your laundry list-

You assume that the recipient won't be able to drive enough traffic to their site to do a test even after running a successful WSO. You assume that he/she would have no targeted search engine traffic. You assume by some strange financial law that if someone has the money for one thing he automatically has money for the other. You assumed earlier that anyone that couldn't pay a copywriter top dollar was a newbie like people who have been at it for a year or more just automatically have it - even in this economy. Then you assume in contradiction of your newbie assumption that unless the recipient gets "Monster cash" it won't be worth it to him. You assume that getting even half decent copy for free would be of a losing value to the recipient. geez and the list goes on.

I think that kinds of marks you with me at times. sometimes logically flawed.

Worse of all you assume it would be lose-lose when no one is even at the point of hammering out the details. You know more about the recipients how they would be picked, selected and who would enter than I or anyone else even knows. that pretty good

Sorry you just assume too much and without any logic to draw the assumptions. thats all and thats flawed.

So if the recipient could drive the traffic and if it were just new, young not terribly busy copywriters would that meet the objections? Or would you just come up with more assumptions?

Because wheres the "logic" in claiming it would be a lose proposition to someone who isn't busy to get the exposure at Warrior Forums. Not a good place to get business? then why the signature link?

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

Hey Mike.


Don't take their silly words and bad
attitudes too much to heart. You've
obviously discerned that one or two
people above are perfectly ok and
great people to deal with.
.

Yes I have and thanks. I don't see Mike Humphrey or Scott loving the idea but they don't seem as offended and I took their problems with the idea.

But all this accusing me of being "silly" and trying to define my "mentality" just because I suggested it might be fun and interesting to take ONE (ONE. did I say ONE?) warrior PER YEAR and do a sales page for him if he had a really great product/offer. No holding anyone to any obligation or claiming who is or who isn't busy or asking why it doesn't make sense for them. I never said anything about who should do this or that as I was accused of doing.

I've been open to a cash prize, making it only for young copy writers but thats doesn't seem to squelch the criticism (in between the subtle ads).

Well all I can think is that some people don't want to have to explain why they wouldn't be entering or worse why they didn't win. That would make sense to me but no one is saying it. Instead I am either "silly" "logically flawed" or i have a free loading "mentality" (even though I wanted to participate not be the recipient)

Is it always so territorial here?