Help With Landing Page?

[FrankJohnson]

Friends:

I'm wondering if some of you here in the Copywriting Forum would be willing to take a look at a landing page I'm working on and give me some constructive criticism.

First, some quick background. I'm working with a friend on an online membership site in which members will be able to access articles, audio and video interviews, etc. - all presenting concepts of how to be an effective sales professional.

My friend has written a book which we want to give away for free in electronic format (the book will also be for sale in audio and printed versions, but we're not mentioning this fact on the landing page, because we don't want to distract people from the free offer). We believe the book represents valuable content in itself (it was written before we decided to give it away for free), but we decided that the best use of it is as an introduction to the online membership.

The landing page I am working on now is meant to persuade people to give us their email address to sign up for our newsletter. That is its only purpose so there is no sale involved in the sense of money exchanging hands (although I recognize we still need to "sell" people on something before they will give us their email address). The "thank you" for signing up for the newsletter is the free electronic version of the book plus 10 videos of sales tips.

The free version of the book will include a sales letter at the end meant to persuade people to sign up for the online membership - for which they will need to pay. I haven't started to write that sales letter yet.

I am definitely not an experienced copywriter. While I think I can write well in terms of grammar, spelling, etc., I struggle when it comes to writing persuasive copy in an effective manner. That's where I would love to have your help.

Here is the landing page:

Warning: Ignoring The Principles In My Free Book May Be Hazardous To Your Sales Career

The landing page has been through about three rounds of edits, and I have printed out the copywriting checklist at the top of the forum. I've made some changes as a result of the checklist, but I can't say that I've checked off every item. I've reached a point where I don't understand some of the items, some of them don't seem to apply because it's a free offer, and for other items, I understand them but I'm honestly at a loss as to how to implement them in the context of this particular landing page.

A couple of additional notes:

1) Because of the nature of the book and the online membership system (both of which advocate building relationships with sales prospects rather than trying to manipulate them), we have purposefully made the copy on the landing page somewhat low key (although it's actually more aggressive than what my friend initially wanted - I had to convince him that most people would see it as very low key).

2) I haven't set up the autoresponders yet, so if someone were to happen to sign up for the newsletter, they wouldn't receive anything.

Thanks in advance for any help anyone can offer - I really appreciate it.

Frank Johnson

[SamKane]

Frank,
The first thing that comes to mind while viewing your site is the
graphic you're using. A bunch of people "huddling"? How does that help ME as
the prospect? I don't think this picture is needed.

Maybe you should lift your picture higher.

Why not start with the benefit you are offering your prospects?

Here's a few sample headlines you can work with.

Increase Sales... Without Selling

How To Become Your Customer's
Only Choice... Even When You're
Selling The Exact Same Thing As
Your Competitors...

FREE Course Teaches You Steps To
Becoming Your Clients #1 Choice In Any Economy

Sam Kane

[Alex Cohen]

Well, it's a great autobiography, but it's obvious you don't understand the first thing about persuading people in print.

The "landing page" needs a complete rewrite. Sorry to say, constructive criticism won't help.

Alex

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

It's refreshing to see such
a well constructed request
for a copywriting critique.

If only they were all like
this!

I'll check it out now.

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Originally Posted by Alex Cohen

Well, it's a great autobiography, but it's obvious you don't understand the first thing about persuading people in print.

The "landing page" needs a complete rewrite. Sorry to say, constructive criticism won't help.

Alex

Now, I cannot help saying, how much I
disagree with the above sentiment given.

Personally, I thought that was a wonderful,
a truly beautiful read, I actually really enjoyed
reading that from the beginning to the very last
word. So much so in fact that upon reading the
testimonials, I was actually almost moved to
tears.

Those are some very beautiful words to
have said about you, I just thought that
was absolutely lovely.

I am of the belief that it could be tightened up
in places just a little bit, not much, just a little
bit of editing here and there to really make it
shine to perfection. Overall though 9.5/10.

A fantastic read.

I'm going to sign up for it right now. I'd love
to get to know you better.

You've sold me lol.

The other thing I might suggest changing just
a little bit, is the sheer number of testimonials
towards the top of the page. I'd sprinkle /
spread these out just a little bit more.

I love the image at the top of the page, that
certainly exemplifies very well what this is all
about.

All in all, it has a wonderful warm, inviting feel
about it and oozes complete integrity and
professionalism and perhaps more importantly,
shows clearly that you have a big heart.

Love it!

Kindest regards.


Mark Andrews

[Mr. Subtle]

Below is an ANIMATED gif. Give it a few seconds to load.

It's just a quick Brain Fart ... not tweaked or perfect by a long shot.

[Collette]

Mr Subtle's kickass makeover overcomes the most glaring mistakes your page makes: Overwhelming copy and no benefits for the prospect.

The testimonials are great, yah, and I understand that you want to establish credibility but -

Nobody cares. Yet.

First give them a reason to care. THEN tell them why you're the One who can deliver the solution.

Plus, you ask a LOT of questions right off the bat. It's more "CIA Interrogation" than "Slippery Slide".

Keep in mind that "landing page" in effect, means "the first screen the prospect sees". Your current landing page assumes the prospect will scroll down to find the goodies. That is a dangerous, and - dare I say - sales-killing assumption.

See how Mr. S's makeover breaks up the MEGA-copy - yet keeps all the information?

One page is "Whoa, Nellie!". The other is, "Ooh... what do we have here?"

And if anyone doubts the importance of graphics in direct response, behold: "More Money for YOU" vs "Group Huddle". One is relevant to the prospect's interest (how do I make more sales?); the other is not.

[SuzanneR]

Originally Posted by SamKane

Increase Sales... Without Selling

How To Become Your Customer's
Only Choice... Even When You're
Selling The Exact Same Thing As
Your Competitors...

FREE Course Teaches You Steps To
Becoming Your Clients #1 Choice In Any Economy

Sam Kane

Wow...I thought this was really good. If it were me, I'd at least test it against his current one. Nice job!

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

No offense Collette, however I do think
perhaps you are missing the point slightly
with this approach.

Certainly the start of the sales letter
didn't come across to me anything like
a 'CIA interrogation', he is there merely
setting up the buying environment,
getting the potential prospect agreeing
with him, in the habit of saying .... Yes!

When I read this piece last night, I was
struck by it's genuineness, you could see
immediately that it was being written right
from the heart of the individual.

It has a warm, earthy, salt of the earth
feel to it. He's not after making it into
some slick and very slippery sales slope.
If he was to do that, I think he would
miss altogether reaching out towards his
ideal target market.

The one or two very small mistakes in
this piece are of no real significance. In
fact, just like an antique piece of furniture,
a few small blemishes here and there only
adds to it's charm and ultimately, it's
appeal.

In a nutshell, you can see instantly that
it's been written by a very real person, an
individual with personality. It's not been
put together by some android robotic
copywriter that simply uses swipe files
and other peoples material, so that every
piece of copy appears almost identical to
the next piece.

It oozes genuineness. Unfortunately in the
copywriters swipe file world we live in today,
the real genuine approach (blemishes
included) are often cast asunder in favor
of this standardized sterilization.

Do we all want to become 'Ford'
copywriters, producing copy straight
off the production line or come across
with a little more genuineness at times
as internet marketers?

I know which model I prefer and I suspect
a lot of other people do too.

[Paul McQuillan]

Thank you Mark for the-

It oozes genuineness. Unfortunately in the
copywriters swipe file world we live in today,
the real genuine approach (blemishes
included) are often cast asunder in favor
of this standardized sterilization.

I personally don't need it to be a carbon cut out
from a Caples ad. sorry

The copy does have some appeal, but I am not
sure the layout is good and it lacks what it's
purpose is, to get people on the newsletter list.

I think the testimonials need to be broken up and
not injected so soon. Let me figure out what this is
before I get hit with those.

Some of the testimonials ramble on a bit too much. I like
to edit those down (I call it "carving the turkey")

BIG problem, the book has no value. So far "free book"
is all there is. Nobody really respects free so you
need to build value into the newsletters.

I feel you are doing it backwards

I can't find one good reason to get your newsletter (besides
the freebie). I don't care if you're a swell guy. Why do
I want your newsletter? What's in it? How will that help
me?

Build value in the newsletter and whack them with the book
and other doo-dad that is worth $_____ to clench the deal.

Give value to everything or you'll have nothing of value

hope that helps

Paul

[Paul McQuillan]

p.s. AWESOME MAKEOVER MR SUBTLE!

[FrankJohnson]

Sam, Alex, Mark, Mr. Subtle, Collette, Suzanne, and Paul:

Just a quick note - I don't want you to think my lack of response means I don't appreciate your feedback. I am "listening" intently.

Thanks!
Frank

[Collette]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

No offense Collette, however I do think
perhaps you are missing the point slightly
with this approach.

No worries. It's just my opinion.

I'm coming at it from a B2B perspective. Generally, I've found that B2B folks want to be able to get to the "bottom line" pretty quickly. So stating the Big Benefit early is important, or they won't still be around by the time you get to it.

Subtle's "$ales" graphic conveys the benefit immediately. Whereas the "huddle" does not. (The "huddle" looks like the site is selling a team-building exercise or something similar.)

And I've found, in my own work, that more than one or two questions as the very start of the body copy depresses response. The exception seems to be when the questions are contained within a "quiz" setting, or in a sort of "sidebar" layout, as Subtle did it.

I think the genius of Subtle's layout is that - whereas I found the original layout visually offputting - the revised layout pulls me in. Although they both contain the same copy.

Again, speaking from a purely personal perspective, I would have clicked away from the first page almost immediately, and stayed for the second.

Granted, your mileage may vary...

[Alex Cohen]

Your current landing page assumes the prospect will scroll down to find the goodies. That is a dangerous, and - dare I say - sales-killing assumption.

Exactly. No benefits until way far down in the copy. And no compelling copy to get them there.

Prospects will read some guy talking about himself and just click away.

Alex

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Hmmmmm perhaps, perhaps, however
sometimes I think copywriters especially
after a while lose sight of the ability to
look at things from a more, shall we say,
a loosely 'dysfunctional' perspective.

The copywriters eye is trained to pick
out every blemish, every crease, any
slight thing that doesn't lend itself to
the 'perfect' piece of copy, whatever
that definition of perfection may be in
their personal eye / mind view
- interpretation.

On the other hand, non-copywriters
reading this sales letter, I believe it
will resonate with them pretty darn
well.

The glowing testimonials will certainly
do their part.

Now, you can make the latest website
or sales letter for that matter as snazzy
as you want to, throw in all that glitz
and drama and this and that and what
have you, and what exactly have you
got at the end of it?

I'll tell what you've got, you've got a
piece of web real estate that looks like
just about every other piece of Internet
real estate out there.

There is only so many times that you can
make and/or create something to perfection
and I'll tell you what, that truth is often as
boring as all hell.

Give me a bit of character any day,
give me a unique design any day, give
me something slightly whimsical, something
slightly eccentric or adventurous, something
thats a little bit unpredictable over something
that's so polished up that the very thing that
is trying to be conveyed, is lost in the perfection
of it all and ends up looking just like, well,
nothing at all in particular.

Who wants something as common as muck?

Do you?

Or do you all appreciate something that has
a bit of individuality? Really, when it comes
down to it?

Sure, your versions of sales copy, they have
their place, there is no denying that, whatever
the market demands, but understand that
there are only so many times that you can
foist such upon an audience before one's
eyes simply glaze over from sheer boredom
after seeing and reading the format a million
times over.

I've already advised this gentleman that the
testimonials towards the top of the page, in
agreement with Paul here, there are a few
too many of them so close together and to
spread them out a little bit more.

As for the rest of the copy, I personally,
overall, love it.

It does what it says on the tip in a very
genuine, down to earth, warts and all manner.

His target audience, who I hardly imagine
spend too many hours a day online, I believe
will appreciate it for what it is.

The recommendations, accolades of colleagues
in his business will more than do enough for
the rest of his credibilty, trust building etc.

Heaven forbid, some of you guys would so sand
down a Bowler Wildcat that you'd turn it into a
Ford Boxer for the mass market.

Or God forbid, some of you were to take up
garden design. You'd have Capability Brown
rolling over in his grave holding his head in
abject fear watching you murder a beautiful
landscape and turning it into a low maintenance
yard space.

A terrible thought indeed.

[Alex Cohen]

On the other hand, non-copywriters
reading this sales letter, I believe it
will resonate with them pretty darn
well.

Mark, you could be right. But I doubt it.

A good lead generation page should get between 30%-50% conversion rate depending on the source of traffic.

What conversion rate do you think his page as written would get?

Alex

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

35.74% precisely.

[Jag82]

I agree. The prospects care about themselves first before anything else.

If we don't talk about their problems and what's in it for them upfront, they will be finding it hard to read through the rest.

And I really like the "SALES" graphic that Mr Subtle inserted into the make-over.

To me, it has a bigger impact that the "team huddle" picture, and it is more in line with the sales message is all about - to help the prospect make sales.

Jag

P.S Collete, I've been reading some of your postings in this forum.
And I really like some of your analysis.

Originally Posted by Collette

Mr Subtle's kickass makeover overcomes the most glaring mistakes your page makes: Overwhelming copy and no benefits for the prospect.

The testimonials are great, yah, and I understand that you want to establish credibility but -

Nobody cares. Yet.

First give them a reason to care. THEN tell them why you're the One who can deliver the solution.

Plus, you ask a LOT of questions right off the bat. It's more "CIA Interrogation" than "Slippery Slide".

Keep in mind that "landing page" in effect, means "the first screen the prospect sees". Your current landing page assumes the prospect will scroll down to find the goodies. That is a dangerous, and - dare I say - sales-killing assumption.

See how Mr. S's makeover breaks up the MEGA-copy - yet keeps all the information?

One page is "Whoa, Nellie!". The other is, "Ooh... what do we have here?"

And if anyone doubts the importance of graphics in direct response, behold: "More Money for YOU" vs "Group Huddle". One is relevant to the prospect's interest (how do I make more sales?); the other is not.

[jasondinner]

Maybe he should try split-testing his original version with a few more aggressive
and to the point versions to see which convert better.

I personally wouldn't go with the original version, but if I had to, I would certainly
put the real meat and potatoes (stronger headline, some bullets, an image of the report, and 1-3 of the best testimonials) all above the fold.

Then if people want to scroll for more info, the bio , the rest of the testimonials,
and a recap of what they get and how they benefit can go below the fold.

Plus, I would get rid of the header graphic altogether bc it's a waste of space
which could slide up between 5 - 8 lines worth of copy that can help the prospect
decide to either opt-in or leave the site.

In my humble opinion, I think it can be a bit more on the aggressive side.

Hope this helps
Jason

[erinwrites]

I like Mr Subtle's layout better simply because I can tell right away that I'm going to get something for free and I won't have to worry about reading through the whole page only to find a "and it can all be yours for $97!"

I like the text and the testimonials are impressive, so I believe that the guy is legit, but the layout makes me think "oh here we go again."

I don't really like the sales graphic behind the guy but I do like that the free ebook is mentioned in the layout without the reader having to do a bunch of scrolling.

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Originally Posted by jasondinner

In my humble opinion, I think it can be a bit more on the aggressive side.

Jason

The point is, they DON'T want it
to be 'aggressive'.

That is not the image that they
are trying to convey.

Best regards.


Mark Andrews...

[jasondinner]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

The point is, they DON'T want it
to be 'aggressive'.

That is not the image that they
are trying to convey.

Best regards.
Mark Andrews...

I see your point and their point, but the only point they should be concerned with
is getting the maximum response they can with whatever traffic comes their way.

And the way it is right now (which is why he is in here asking for help to begin with)
is not the best it can be. I don't think it's even close to the best it can be.

This is direct response marketing.

not...

"wow you're story is great, but i have no idea what you want me to do, so I'll just leave your page feeling great about myself"

There are several improvements that can be made to boost his response and that
is Frank's reason for coming here for help.

He can have all of that feel good info, but it needs to be more aggressive.

Let's ask Frank what he wants...

FRANK - what would you rather have?

1. Your prospects to download your book at the highest rate possible?

- OR -

2. Your prospects to feel great about how awesome you are, but to leave
empty handed never to return?

I am all for the warm and fuzzy feeling, but at what cost?

What if he wants to eventually start driving paid traffic to his page?

He'll find out real fast that warm and fuzzy with a poor call to action is very expensive.

I say, let them opt-in first with minimal warm and fuzzy stuff, then use the majority
of it to build the relationship they are attempting to build.

AFTER.

The desired result is to get as many copies of that book into targeted people's hands.

The way the page is now, it won't happen. PERIOD!

I'm just sayin'

- Jason

[Paul McQuillan]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

The point is, they DON'T want it to be 'aggressive'.

That is not the image that they
are trying to convey.

Best regards.


Mark Andrews...

I don't agree with that. "they" are trying to get results
and the results will be less with the current page.

I don't think "aggressive" is the right word, the ad is
not focused on anything. It's an ad for a free book right
now. There is a bazillion free ebooks, nobody cares.

Why do I want the newsletters? The page does not touch
on that at all.

The layout of the page does not feel "right" (let's forget
I am stuck in a copywriter delusional state )

If I were Frank I would pay Subtle to use his redo and test
that against the other- not changing a single word. I bet
that alone would increase opt-in.

Start tweaking the copy and adding some value (cause there
is NONE right now) and increase opt-ins even more.

The page as it is is not optimized to make "the sale". Being
the page is from a sales professional it lacks correlation.

A free ebook is a harder sell than most think

Just my silly thoughts, take it with a grain...

[jasondinner]

Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan

I don't agree with that. "they" are trying to get results
and the results will be less with the current page.

I don't think "aggressive" is the right word, the ad is
not focused on anything. It's an ad for a free book right
now. There is a bazillion free ebooks, nobody cares.

Why do I want the newsletters? The page does not touch
on that at all.

The layout of the page does not feel "right" (let's forget
I am stuck in a copywriter delusional state )

If I were Frank I would pay Subtle to use his redo and test
that against the other- not changing a single word. I bet
that alone would increase opt-in.

Start tweaking the copy and adding some value (cause there
is NONE right now) and increase opt-ins even more.

The page as it is is not optimized to make "the sale". Being
the page is from a sales professional it lacks correlation.

A free ebook is a harder sell than most think

Just my silly thoughts, take it with a grain...

Yes I agree with you where "aggressive" may not be the best word to use in this case.

Maybe "more focused on the desired response" is better than "more aggressive"

But yeah, I'm with you all the way on what you said.

Results are what matters most.

Let's see what Frank ends up doing. Hopefully he will at least test more than one version.

- Jason

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Originally Posted by jasondinner

FRANK - what would you rather have?

1. Your prospects to download your book at the highest rate possible?

- OR -

2. Your prospects to feel great about how awesome you are, but to leave
empty handed never to return?

Your second question Jason is loaded.

In effect, the way that you have asked
this, you are putting a less than neutral
thought into the equation, that is,
implying that his present model will
receive no interest whatsoever as it
presently stands.

The way you have worded that is a
veritable command to believe that your
point of view is right over any other.

Not exactly the best way to seek an
opinion on neutral, middle ground.

What does interest me, is that right
here, you've got this already very, very
successful gentleman who is exceptionally
experienced at salesmanship and has already
made a huge, massive success of his life
from doing what he does best, applying his
area of expertise, his area of specialization
to helping these other corporations to
succeed and profit incredibly well.

Yet still, some, shall we say rather more
inexperienced direct salesmen have the
chutzpah on the back of all of his experience
in his field, years of being in the business,
telling him that his approach is completely
wrong.

That I find quite staggering and also rather
telling.

[jasondinner]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

Your second question Jason is loaded.

In effect, the way that you have asked
this, you are putting a less than neutral
thought into the equation, that is,
implying that his present model will
receive no interest whatsoever as it
presently stands.

The way you have worded that is a
veritable command to believe that your
point of view is right over any other.

Not exactly the best way to seek an
opinion on neutral, middle ground.

What does interest me, is that right
here, you've got this already very, very
successful gentleman who is exceptionally
experienced at salesmanship and has already
made a huge, massive success of his life
from doing what he does best, applying his
area of expertise, his area of specialization
to helping these other corporations to
succeed and profit incredibly well.

Yet still, some, shall we say rather more
inexperienced direct salesmen have the
chutzpah on the back of all of his experience
in his field, years of being in the business,
telling him that his approach is completely
wrong.

That I find quite staggering and also rather
telling.

I'll take any reference you made towards me as a compliment.

Thanks for your kind words.

I'm not here to argue. I'm here to help Frank get a higher response
on the page he asked all of us to help him with.

You seem to be getting upset about the suggestions other members
and experienced marketers in here, including myself, are making to
Frank with regards to increasing his page's response.

But that is your problem and your choice to get upset and I won't
hold it against you

Bottom line is, there is lots of room for improvement on his landing page
no matter how much YOU happen to like it.

And without testing any version, none of us will know which is better.

Just because the man is a genius in sales and sales training doesn't mean
he can write effective sales copy on a direct response piece.

And he's not even writing it. Frank is.

Frank, please do let us know what you decide to do and what your RESULTS were.

Good Luck,
Jason

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Originally Posted by jasondinner

You seem to be getting upset about the suggestions other members and experienced marketers in here, including myself, are making to Frank with regards to increasing his page's response.

But that is your problem and your choice to get upset and I won't
hold it against you

That is my point you see Jason, you are
implying that I am upset for some reason,
when you are exceptionally, completely
and utterly offbase.

This is merely a discussion, what is there
to get upset about? Why use the word
'upset' in the discussion in your reply?

You tell me.

Once again, you are loading something into
the equation based upon a falsehood so that
you may be perceived to acquire the upper
hand, casting an asperion on an opposing
point of view.

These guys are business partners btw, just
in case you hadn't gathered that minor detail.

[jasondinner]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

That is my point you see Jason, you are
implying that I am upset for some reason,
when you are exceptionally, completely
and utterly offbase.

This is merely a discussion, what is there
to get upset about? Why use the word
'upset' in the discussion in your reply?

You tell me.

Once again, you are loading something into
the equation based upon a falsehood so that
you may be perceived to acquire the upper
hand, casting an asperion on an opposing
point of view.

These guys are business partners btw, just
in case you hadn't gathered that minor detail.

I know they're partners. I do read.

Dave is the expert and Frank is the webmaster/copywriter/internet marketer

And thanks for the clarification. I'm glad you're not "upset" by the dialogue in this thread.

It does appear to me that you are taking anything I say personal
and this thread is not about US.

So I will gracefully bow out of this conversation and wait to see
the results Frank shares with us.

Enjoy the rest of your day

Jason

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Originally Posted by jasondinner

It does appear to me that you are taking anything I say personal and this thread is not about US.

Jason my dear friend.

Mark sighs.

I am not taking one word that you utter
'personally', as you so succinctly put it.

You are merely muddying the waters,
trying to get a rise out of me, when
quite simply that is not going to happen.

There is a massive difference between
discussing an issue and getting upset
with one another. Perhaps you are not
aware of this?

I am rather tempted to post up a
Youtube video at this juncture, albeit
it is a clip from the Houses of Parliament,
an exchange between the former Prime
Minister Tony Blair and his opposite
number David Cameron of the opposition
party at Prime Minister's Question Time
from 2006.

Rather unfortunately if I were to do so,
much as it would help you to understand
the difference between getting upset with
one another and reasonable discussion,
(there is a rather subtle difference
between the two), doing so would
probably go against the rules of this
forum.

I shall instead send this Youtube clip to
you via PM.

Hopefully you'll watch it, enjoy it and
have a good laugh at the same time.

It perfectly puts across the point
between getting upset with one
another and simply discussing an
issue.

Why this particular portion of the
WF always has to go down this
channel frankly beats me.

Pray, enjoy the clip that I am about
to send you.

If anyone else would like to see it,
please pm me and I shall send it to
you as well, with pleasure.

May you enjoy a lovely day.


Mark Andrews... (sighing)

[Paul McQuillan]

Jason.... RUN LIKE HELL!

Frank, I wish you the best with whatever
you do to the page.

Please come back and share the results

Paul

[Alex Cohen]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

What does interest me, is that right
here, you've got this already very, very
successful gentleman who is exceptionally
experienced at salesmanship and has already
made a huge, massive success of his life
from doing what he does best, applying his
area of expertise, his area of specialization
to helping these other corporations to
succeed and profit incredibly well.

Yet still, some, shall we say rather more
inexperienced direct salesmen have the
chutzpah on the back of all of his experience
in his field, years of being in the business,
telling him that his approach is completely
wrong.

That I find quite staggering and also rather
telling.

I don't know the man, but my guess is Frank didn't come to this discussion board looking for "yes men".

From a direct response perspective, with its goal of getting leads, that "landing page" as it's currently written is terrible.

Alex

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Yes Alex, you made that point quite
succinctly very quickly after the thread
first appeared.

We disagree. That's good. This world
would be hellishly boring if everyone
had to agree with one another all of
the time.

[Justin Mandel]

I don't think there's actually too much to discuss here actually.

BOTTOM LINE: This should be about what is *most* effective while not leaving this to guess work and being "different" for the sake of being unique alone.

[FrankJohnson]

Thank you to everyone who has participated in this thread. I appreciate the time you took to try and help me!

To Sam Kane:
Thank you for offering your opinion about the masthead graphic and your suggested headlines. The masthead graphic is the one we're using for the main site, and Dave is very happy with it. The main site, the book, and the online membership area - all together as a whole - emphasize the importance of a team effort with members of a sales team working together toward a common goal, so it has some application to the overall emphasis. But I do understand your point. Your suggested headlines don't really resonate with me, but I have the "advantage" of knowing the whole system. They just don't fit the overall tenor of the complete offering. But again, I appreciate the effort to help me.

To Alex Cohen:
You're right - I didn't come here looking for "yes men." I also didn't come here looking for "no men." You offered one piece of advice which may be helpful - get the benefits higher in the copy - and I'll take that to heart. Other than that, it doesn't really help anyone to just say, in effect, "there's no hope for you."

To Mark Andrews:
I appreciate your encouragement. Of course, I hope that the vast majority of people who read the sales letter respond as you did! Your recommendation (and I believe Erin, Paul, and Jason made similar suggestions) to move some of the testimonials higher and spread them out more is helpful - I'll be trying that with my original version (I may also try Paul's suggestion to move the testimonials lower). You're right - we're purposefully trying to avoid an approach which we consider manipulative because that would be the antithesis of what is taught in the book and the membership area. It makes no sense to use manipulation to get people to subscribe to a membership area in which they are taught that manipulation is the wrong way to approach the sales profession.

To Mr. Subtle:
Thanks so much for going to the trouble of working something up as an alternative. I personally don't like the Sales graphic behind Dave's picture (although I might like it better if the "S" were not a dollar sign and the letters weren't made up of currency - not sure - my first reaction was that it screams "unprofessional"), but I do like the layout very much. That may be because I'm used to seeing that type of approach to sales letters on the web, or it may be because I just like it in general. I've PM'd you with an additional question.

To Colette:
Thanks too for your comments. Benefits? If I were to state up front what Dave earns in annual commissions, I think the benefits would be obvious. But he doesn't want me to tell anyone what he earns because he doesn't want his current clients to know. When he told me how much he does earn, I was stunned. The benefits as we see them are what we've stated in the initial paragraphs which introduce Dave - repeat sales to the same clients over a long term, an ever-increasing income, a constant stream of referrals. But I assume that you think these are either not going to be seen as benefits by the readers or that those benefits are not compelling enough or that they are not stated aggressively enough. Is that the case, or do you think there is something else?

To Suzanne:
Thanks for the suggestion to test (also made by Jason, Paul, and at least implied by Justin). I hope to do just that.

To Paul:
You've definitely made me think. I've been coming at this from the perspective of someone who knows what the book is about - obviously, I've read it. It was originally written with the intent of being sold on Amazon (and as I said in the original post, it is being sold on Amazon. So I, of course, think it has value. But I can understand why someone new to the page might not think it has value, especially since we're giving it away for free. We've tried to address that in a couple of ways. First, with the testimonials about the book which are from some pretty "heavy hitters" - the former Executive Vice President of Cisco Systems, one of the producers of Raiders of the Lost Ark and Return of the Jedi, the owner of the San Jose Sharks, etc. Second, with the section about why we're giving it away for free, in which I think we took a pretty high road - we didn't use the common approach of saying we've made all the money we need and now we just want to share with the world. Instead, we tried to be honest about our motivation. But obviously, it didn't work for you. Is there no way to show the value of the book? Or is it a lost cause since we're giving it away for free? Would it help to make the identity of the people who gave us testimonials more prominent? I'll need to give some thought to how to demonstrate the value of the newsletter. Shame on me - the value to me has been that it allows us to talk to people about the membership opportunity, but I see now that there needs to be more to appeal to the average reader. Thanks too for the suggestion of testing Mr. Subtle's layout against the original layout, then tweaking the copy to do further testing. I hope to do just that.

To Jag:
Thanks so much for taking the time to comment. I really appreciate it. I did try to talk about the readers' potential problems (in asking the initial questions), but obviously it didn't resonate with you. Can you give me an example of what you're suggesting? What might be a problem a typical salesperson might be facing? As I said in my original post, this is not my expertise at all, but I believe I can get better (although it may take me a long, long time!!!!), so I'd appreciate an example of what you're saying. If you're willing, of course.

To Erin:
Thanks for the encouragement. At least it seems that we were able to accomplish one thing, at least for you - we established Dave's credibility. But I guess that doesn't mean people are persuaded to give us their email address, right?

To Jason:
I understand your perspective and agree with it in general. I want the maximum response possible. But to me, that doesn't necessarily mean the most downloads of the book possible. The end game is subscriptions to the membership area. Two scenarios: 1) 1,000 people come to landing page A. 400 people sign up for the newsletter and download the book. Of those 400, 50 subscribe to the membership area; 2) 1,000 people come to landing page B. 200 people sign up for the newsletter and download the book. Of those 200, 100 subscribe to the membership area. Which is the better outcome? If we use a landing page that is more aggressive (or focused on the response of signing up for the newsletter), but in the process, create a list which is not interested in the message of the book (that manipulation is not an effective approach to sales), will it result in less subscriptions to the membership area? If instead we use a landing page that is more low key (or focused on the response of getting the right people to sign up for the newsletter - people who will be more interested in the message of the book), will it result in more subscriptions to the membership area? That's the nebulous idea that my instinct is hovering around, if I can put it that way. I'm not trying to claim necessarily that the sales letter I wrote is the way to get the right people to sign up. As I implied in the original post, this is an area in which I feel very inadequate - that's why I came looking for help, as you said. And I do appreciate your willingness to offer help - very much.

To Justin:
Thanks for your comments. You're right (as others have suggested as well) - testing is the only real way to determine what will be most successful.

Again, I want to thank everyone for your comments and suggestions. As I said earlier, I am listening as intently as I can. And I definitely will come back and share the results of the testing we do. It won't be in the next few days - I'm very busy in my day job right now (it's a business which does a lot of its business during the holiday season and it can be overwhelming during November and December). So if I don't come back with results right away, it doesn't mean I'll never come back!

Thanks again,

Frank

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

We very much look forward to seeing
you return Frank.

In the meantime on behalf of all of us
here, although we may disagree with
each others points of view at times,
I think it's safe to say, that every
single one of us wishes you and your
partner, every success imaginable
and lots of happiness too in the
future.

Best regards.


Mark Andrews...

[Jag82]

Originally Posted by FrankJohnson

To Jag:
Thanks so much for taking the time to comment. I really appreciate it. I did try to talk about the readers' potential problems (in asking the initial questions), but obviously it didn't resonate with you. Can you give me an example of what you're suggesting? What might be a problem a typical salesperson might be facing? As I said in my original post, this is not my expertise at all, but I believe I can get better (although it may take me a long, long time!!!!), so I'd appreciate an example of what you're saying. If you're willing, of course.

Frank

Hi Frank,

Yes, you did talk about the problems. That's good.

However I felt too many questions were asked right
off the bat. You may want to then elaborate
a bit more about the problems after the questions bit.
And then talking about the benefits that they stand
to get.

As other has said, the "talking about yourself" part
came too early.

At that stage...all the readers care about is
what's in it for him.

While there is nothing wrong with establishing
your credibility, you may not want to talk
so much about it right at the start.

Put the spotlight on the reader. And then
slowly bring yourself into the picture
when you want to solidify your argument
with proof.

My 2 cents. And thanks for being open.

Warmly,
Jag

[Metronicity]

Frank, what you are looking for, and no-one has mentioned yet, is a SQUEEZE PAGE. You say it yourself -

The landing page I am working on now is meant to persuade people to give us their email address to sign up for our newsletter. That is its only purpose...

So you need to keep the content on that page to a minimum. The goal of the page is to build your list. And why not use video to do it BTW? Instead of the static shots of Dave and the house and Dave and his cars - a typical "get rich quick" salespage tactic - why not have him drive up in the Benz and take us through his beautiful house? Much more subtle than the show-offy pics.

I don't like the cheesy "hands" graphic - that's been around the track too many times. It's tired. Retire it. And the corny headline stinks -

Warning: Ignoring The Principles In My Free Book May Be Hazardous To Your Sales Career

that just gets my back up - and it's a negative sell - turn it around. Say something like "What You'll Discover in My 500 page "Sales Ethos" book ($9.95 on Amazon but FREE to you) is 50 Turbo-Charged sales techniques that will DOUBLE Your Earnings" - or whatever it is that will hit their Hot Button and get them to give up their email address.

You have some great testimonials - but you don't need them here. Use them in the follow-up sales page.

But really - I'd be going for video. Start with Dave in the car. Have him introduce himself briefly. Pull up at his house. "Yes this is my house...how did a guy from a small-town in the Mid-West get to afford this? I'm going to show you. But basically it comes down to following some fundamental principles revolving around building long-term relationships with people - helping them to solve problems rather than trying to "sell" them. I've built a very successful business this way. And I've been working with some of the most dynamic companies around - companies like blah blah blah".

In brief - keep the page "mean, keen and lean".

[Paul McQuillan]

Hi Frank,

Giving the book some value is easy, what's in it? What new
information is strewn through the pages that would help my
career?

Your assumption that Dave sells the book will lose more than
it wins. A lot of people will not read the testimonials or read
just one or two.

None of the testimonials talk about the book or the newsletter

Never assume people know, and even if they do know of Dave,
why should they get the book?

I would use some bullets to emphasize some of the dramatic
parts of the book.

Putting testimonials higher does not make any sense, why
would that help since they are not about the book or
newsletter?

Quit trying to sell Dave and try to build interest in the book.

It would help to add value to the book by simply saying

As seen on Amazon for $xx.xx

Unless people have the book they do not know what it's about...
tell them.

Paul

[FrankJohnson]

Hi Paul. Thanks for the suggestions. I will try and add more detail about the book (and as I said, about the newsletter as well).

But I'm not sure I understand - 12 out of the 18 total testimonials are about the book.

Frank

[Metronicity]

Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan

None of the testimonials talk about the book or the newsletter

Huh? The second set of testimonials is all about the book. And the book is just the bait for the opt-in. A very good bait - seeing as though it's on Amazon for $9.95 - and that should be emphasised. We're talking squeeze page here - not a sales letter. And he's not just baiting the line with a book offer -

The "thank you" for signing up for the newsletter is the free electronic version of the book plus 10 videos of sales tips.

[Paul McQuillan]

If they make it to the second set of testimonials Mal, if they make it...

[Metronicity]

Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan

If they make it to the second set of testimonials Mal, if they make it...

You're not following are you? I'm saying he doesn't need or want a sales page. He's talking Squeeze Page. To get them to opt-in. So all he needs is a headline and minimal copy - no testimonials/no long copy. Or a video - with or without headline - with an opt-in box. You can even incorporate the opt-in box into the video - guy called Carson has a WSO on it.

[FrankJohnson]

But Paul, if I take some of the testimonials about the book and put them higher, won't that help to establish the value of the book? In addition to citing the Amazon price, which I think is a great idea.

Malcolm - I'm not too familiar with the term "Squeeze Page," so I looked it up on Wikipedia. From the definition they have there, it would seem that the landing page I've prepared fits the bill (no links to external pages, content only meant to get people to subscribe to the mailing list - whether or not I've done a good job of preparing content).

But it's obvious that you think of a Squeeze Page as something different than what I've done and what Mr. Subtle and the others are contemplating. Can you help me understand the difference?

Thanks!
Frank

[Paul McQuillan]

Everything is a sales page Mal, even a squeeze page.

He is selling them on opting in

I agree with using no testimonials for this

Fun conversation, but I got to paint my nails...

[Frank Tocco]

Let's ask Frank what he wants...

FRANK - what would you rather have?

1. Your prospects to download your book at the highest rate possible?

- OR -

2. Your prospects to feel great about how awesome you are, but to leave
empty handed never to return?

I am all for the warm and fuzzy feeling, but at what cost?

What if he wants to eventually start driving paid traffic to his page?

He'll find out real fast that warm and fuzzy with a poor call to action is very expensive.

I say, let them opt-in first with minimal warm and fuzzy stuff, then use the majority
of it to build the relationship they are attempting to build.

Frank I loved your Squezze Page as far as the look of it goes, but would have to agree with the opinion of the other members here that you would lose many people that would never make it to the capture box.

People don´t care about any of your story yet. They just want to know what´s in it for them. At least on the first introduction to your page.

BOTTOM LINE
Why should give you my contact information? What benefit would it provide me and my business?

Once they are in that´s a different story and all the genuine, sincere and caring testimonials will get more milage and credibility from those that showed an interst by opting in, but no one´s going to opt in just because they like you.

Mr. Subtle´s page presses the hot buttons and sprinkles the testamonials lightly to give it more flavor and most importantly, create a call to action.
A squeeze page should sell the click to get people to take action on what the page is intended for, in this case, signing up for the newsletter.

Save selling your integrity a little later on once they are in.

Design-wise it looks great and professional but get to the point quicker, give me a compelling reason to opt in right now and put the sign-up box right at the top, not the bottom of the page.

[Frank Tocco]

Your second question Jason is loaded.

In effect, the way that you have asked
this, you are putting a less than neutral
thought into the equation, that is,
implying that his present model will
receive no interest whatsoever as it
presently stands.

The way you have worded that is a
veritable command to believe that your
point of view is right over any other.

Not exactly the best way to seek an
opinion on neutral, middle ground.

What does interest me, is that right
here, you've got this already very, very
successful gentleman who is exceptionally
experienced at salesmanship and has already
made a huge, massive success of his life
from doing what he does best, applying his
area of expertise, his area of specialization
to helping these other corporations to
succeed and profit incredibly well.

Yet still, some, shall we say rather more
inexperienced direct salesmen have the
chutzpah on the back of all of his experience
in his field, years of being in the business,
telling him that his approach is completely
wrong.

That I find quite staggering and also rather
telling.

On the other hand, success does speak for itself!
So something Frank is doing is working but still,
there´s a big difference between building relationships
face-to-face and capturing someone´s attention enough
online to urge them to sign-up to a newsletter.

Once they are in his circle, them share his expertise
and do what he does best.

No matter how successful someone is in life
there´s always new skills to learn and online marketing
is , I´m assuming here, a new skill to Frank.

Split-testing would have the final word on this matter.
Who wants to bet Mr. Subtles´ would out-pace the
original version as far as sign-ups go.

Place your bets...

[FrankJohnson]

Originally Posted by Metronicity

You have some great testimonials - but you don't need them here. Use them in the follow-up sales page.

Malcolm - I also don't understand this. The testimonials are about Dave as a salesman and about his book. But what we're ultimately selling is membership in an online learning environment. I don't think any of the current testimonials will do anything to sell that, so why use them in a follow-up sales page?

Thanks,
Frank

[Collette]

Frank - What is your PRIMARY goal for this page?

- Do you want to build up your (generic) mailing list (and if so, to what purpose)?

- Or, do you want the prospect to buy a paid subscription to the Inner Circle?

If it is the former, a short, simple, straight-to-the-point WIIFM squeeze page, offering the free book, will get the job done. Sell "the valuable gift". Get in; get the email; get out.

This is a good way to build your list for a long-term, sequential selling strategy, when you have more than one product in the backend.

However, from the information you've given us, it appears you only have one product - the paid membership.

If that is the case, and if the purpose of the page is to have people invest in a paid subscription, then sell the Inner Circle.

I don't know what your subscription rate is on this, but I'm assuming "not cheap". So what you need to emphasize is the value of the subscription - not the value of the book. The book is not a strong incentive to purchase the paid membership, because the book, while lending the author credibility, does not remove risk from the membership purchase.

A much stronger incentive to purchase the membership would be to offer a sample of the subscription (i.s. first 30-days free or whatever). Sweeten the deal by offering the book as an "even-if-you-cancel-you-keep-it" bonus.

There are all kinds of social psychology reasons why the second approach is stronger than the first for selling a paid membership. For now, suffice to say, it's a proven technique.

The copy you've got, right now, is only serving to cloud the offer and push your goal further away. The current copy is selling Dave and the book. Not what it seems (from your most recent posts) you really want to sell: paid subscriptions to the Inner Circle.

Reverse engineer this bad boy. Decide what you want to get from this page (subscriptions, a house list, public credibility for Dave, whatever) and position your copy around attaining that goal, and that goal only.

[Metronicity]

Originally Posted by FrankJohnson

Malcolm - I'm not too familiar with the term "Squeeze Page," so I looked it up on Wikipedia. From the definition they have there, it would seem that the landing page I've prepared fits the bill (no links to external pages, content only meant to get people to subscribe to the mailing list - whether or not I've done a good job of preparing content).

But it's obvious that you think of a Squeeze Page as something different than what I've done and what Mr. Subtle and the others are contemplating. Can you help me understand the difference?

Thanks!
Frank

Nope. What you have is more of a sales page/landing page/sales letter - with an opt-in.

A squeeze page is a different animal altogether - its main function is to get viewers to "opt-in" to your mailing list. Then you can use a sales page/letter on them. Have a look at what Frank Kern does with his. He's a master at it. And he has something like 800k email addresses on his lists. "The money is in the list". http://www.masscontrolsite.com/desire.php

[Collette]

Malcolm - Kern's funnel is slightly different. Typically, Frank's funnel is very wide at the top - very low-risk opt-in.

He starts with giving away valuable content, no opt-in required. The content he delivers is always top-notch, thus serving as a credibility-builder AND a value-builder for what's to come.

Only after the no-risk freebie does he ask for an opt-in. In return for giving Kern what he wants (an email addy) the prospect receives a tsunami of more valuable content.

Kern doesn't ask for the sale until after the series of freebies have made his eventual CTA a complete no-brainer for the prospect.

In essence, Kern's funnel is a step-by-step guide to fattening up the bird before Thanksgiving dinner. And, as a funnel model, it definitely kicks some serious tushie.

But Kern's model succeeds by having a boatload of good content to pull from at whim, again and again.

From what we know, Dave's only got the one incentive so far.