Feedback please: weight loss niche, new sales letter

[bigchezmktg]

Hey y'all! I need your feedback! This is my very first post on this forum.

I've always written copy for real estate investors and experts. I'd like to think I'm pretty good at what I do.

But after losing 80 pounds, I wanna tell the world about it! I'm finding that the weight loss industry is a completely different animal from real estate. Weight loss folks prefer a lower price-point and want more value.

The attached PDF is going up on the URL NoWillPowerNecessary.com (not a live URL yet until I double check my sales letter first!) My years of experience make me want feedback before putting up the letter for the world to see.

This is a brand-spanking-new product, so the testimonials are limited at this point. But this will be converted to a web 2.0 sales letter (and not a PDF) once I'm ready to market it.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Thank you so much in advance!

Rachel

[Hugh Thyer]

Hey there,

Here's a couple of things.

First, do NOT call people FAT. You are not going to develop rapport with your prospects by calling them fat. It is insulting and a big NO-NO for weight loss.

Second, your 'big idea' is what should become your headline.
-----------------
How My Plastic Surgeon Saved Me From Weight Loss Surgery!
He said to me "“Listen to this CD for 21 days. If you don’t lose weight or see changes in the mirror, come back
and see me and you’ll get your liposuction. I promise.”
---------------------

Then use your before and after photos at the very top. Tell them about your success then go into the troubles you've had losing weight in the past.

[Steve Faber]

If you Have a few Pounds to Lose, Listen Up! I'll reveal How I went from being almost 100lbs overweight to a slim, 130lbs, with no - working out, diets, surgery, pills or potions! Better yet, I'll let you in on how you can do the same.

Don't forget top add your FTC disclaimer in there too.

[bigchezmktg]

I appreciate y'alls response!

The target audience for this letter is women who have REALIZED they are fat, and are ready to do something about it.

Having been a fat chick, I can attest to the fact that I knew I was fat and, if I'd read something like that, it wouldn't have been as insulting as it were true.

My current headline is a bit long I'll agree, but is one I got from Dan Kennedy. I'm liking the 'plastic surgeon' as a headline, though. I tend to write more AIDA than success-then-struggle in my letters, but am open to changing it around!

I'd considered the "no pills, trainer, or surgery" angle, but wasn't sure if that was overplayed in the market today. Thoughts?

Originally, the headline was, "Give me 20 minutes and I'll have you dropping weight faster than a winner on the Biggest Loser...(subhead) WITHOUT Jillian Michaels yelling at you like some deranged drill seargant!" but after I wrote the letter, it didn't really fit.

As I said, I've been a copywriter for almost 9 years, but this is my first venture into the weight loss industry, so I wanna make sure I get it right (and don't have my *ss on my shoulders to get it there)!

Thanks again for your comments! Keep em coming!

[The Copy Nazi]

Rachel, mate, it's pretty good. Not the Dan Kennedy headline though. I didn't want to read past that. That's monumentally awful. Here's your head. A variation of your lines on page 2.

"Know what? Men don’t look fat girls in the eye."

They look over your shoulder. Anywhere but in your face. How do I know this? Up until last year, I was a fattie and wasn’t looked in the eye by anyone, ever. And I was sick of it.

Know What Else I Was Sick Of?

I was sick of being the funny fat girl who was always hungry.
I was sick of hearing “You have such a pretty face”(...for a fat girl.)
I was sick of people in restaurants watching me in disgust as I pigged-out.

I wanted so badly to change...but couldn’t, even when I knew what I was eating was bad for me. I physically couldn’t stop.

Can You Relate To that?

[dorothydot]

Hi,

Just got finished with a series of autoresponders on various weight-loss products.

There were certain things that I had to address in common with all of them:
* touch lightly on the problem. Fat people (I'm one) know they are fat. No need to pound the stake through the heart.
* use a lot of imagery. Especially if you don't have the testimonials, you need to convince disillusioned overweight people that this time they have the right answer.
* be darn sure there is a guarantee; if you have one, make it a big selling point.
* sell the hope that their lives can again be interesting and fun.

Hope this helps,
Dot

[Loren Woirhaye]

Gary Halbert, before he developed his own gut, famously wrote
a hilarious sales letter which the weight-challenged presumably
found... insulting - because they didn't respond.

I heard him read the headline and head on a tape though, and
it was very funny and explicit. Unfortunately humor seldom
sells. Nor does insulting your market.

I love funny, cheeky writing, BTW. Softness and empathy often
pays in salesmanship though. You can use the word "fat" without
calling the reader "fat": you turn the "fat" into an unwelcome guest -
the bad guy, the common enemy. Don't make the reader "fat" -
make the reader an indignant victim of fat's ugly dictatorship.

[bigchezmktg]

Woohoo! Now that's a series of great feedback I can wrap my head around.

The headline did indeed come from Dan Kennedy's Ultimate Sales Letter. Although having re-read it about a ba-zillion times, I'm not entirely sold on it's effectiveness in this particular setting.

I'm doing the 23,000th rewrite and will definitely use some of the suggestions made here.

I'll play Devil's Advocate and ask this - is my use of the word "fat" insulting because the customer would be mad at me...or mad at themselves for being that way?

I wouldn't want my doctor to know I had cancer, but then tiptoe around the subject to tell me the diagnosis.

And if I can show someone how to stave off a heart attack or adult-onset diabetes, then maybe "tough love" is what they need. Isn't that why Jillian Michaels of NBC's Biggest Loser is getting so much fame?

Admittedly, I'm fanning the flames to elicit your responses. I'm also curious to get your opinion on the matter. I am not my customer. That's copywriting 101.

However, I have been in my customer's shoes and wish someone would have sat me down and in plain English pointed this stuff out to me.

Excited to hear your response and thank you again for your feedback so far! It's helped so much!

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by bigchezmktg

The headline did indeed come from Dan Kennedy's Ultimate Sales Letter. Although having re-read it about a ba-zillion times, I'm not entirely sold on it's effectiveness in this particular setting.

I'm doing the 23,000th rewrite and will definitely use some of the suggestions made here.

I'll play Devil's Advocate and ask this - is my use of the word "fat" insulting because the customer would be mad at me...or mad at themselves for being that way?

I wouldn't want my doctor to know I had cancer, but then tiptoe around the subject to tell me the diagnosis.

And if I can show someone how to stave off a heart attack or adult-onset diabetes, then maybe "tough love" is what they need. Isn't that why Jillian Michaels of NBC's Biggest Loser is getting so much fame?

Admittedly, I'm fanning the flames to elicit your responses. I'm also curious to get your opinion on the matter. I am not my customer. That's copywriting 101.

However, I have been in my customer's shoes and wish someone would have sat me down and in plain English pointed this stuff out to me.

Excited to hear your response and thank you again for your feedback so far! It's helped so much!

"I wouldn't want my doctor to know I had cancer, but then tiptoe around the subject to tell me the diagnosis." EXACKERY. I don't see the use of the word "fat" as insulting or demeaning in any way. But there again I'm not fat. But which is the stronger headline - "Men Don't Look Overweight Girls in the Eye" or "Men Don't Look Fat Girls in the Eye"? And if testing proves that fatties are offended by the word you could always qualify it with something like "I don't mean to sound offensive but when I was overweight people DID call me fat - mostly behind my back. I could have pussyfooted around the issue by using words like "overweight" or "weight-challenged" or some other euphemism but the fact is when you are fat you know you are fat and there is no way of getting away from it. Have a look at my "before" photo above. Am I "fat" or "weight-challenged"? Yep, I'm F-A-T. But look at the "After" photo. How do I look now"...blah blah.

Loren talks about a Gary Halbert salesletter. I think he must mean the radio spot written by a brilliant Advertising "young Turk". This one -

ATTENTION ALL FAT PEOPLE! DOES YOUR GARBAGE MAN DELIVER INSTEAD OF COLLECT AND THEN YELL "CHOW TIME!"?

WHENEVER YOU GET ON AN ELEVATOR, NO MATTER WHAT BUTTON YOU PUSH, DOES IT ALWAYS GO DOWN?

WHENEVER YOU GO SHOPPING FOR GROCERIES, DO YOUR NEIGHBORS LAUGH BEHIND YOUR BACK AND SAY, "THAT LITTLE PIGGY WENT TO THE MARKET AGAIN?"

LISTEN: FAT AIN'T WHERE IT'S AT. LEARN HOW TO GET RID OF IT. READ THE AKRON BEACON JOURNAL. READ IT TOMORROW. LOOK FOR THE PAGE WITH THE BIG HEADLINE THAT SAYS:

"THE WORLD WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE WITHOUT FAT PEOPLE: HERE'S HOW YOU CAN HELP GET RID OF THEM".

THAT'S TOMORROW IN THE BEACON JOURNAL. LOOK FOR IT!

BYE PORKY.

That radio spot ran over and over just before the appearance of the newspaper ad. It was the talk of the town. After hearing that brilliant commercial, the good people of Akron, Ohio could hardly wait for the appearance of that wondrous ad.
And appear it did. The very next day. It all its glory. A full newspaper page of long, tightly written copy that told how fat people were sucking up more than their fair share of the resources of the earth. How they needed more food to feed them; more clothes to clothe them; more fuel to transport them; more medical attention; and so on. The ad also told how fat people could cure themselves of the condition of being fat by simply sending for the diet book that was mentioned (briefly) in the ad.
What a spectacular campaign! A full page ad backed by all those fantastic radio spots. Cleverness! Humor! Creativity! And, a new approach that had never before been used!



And Only Three Lousy Orders!

Know what? I reckon that spot would work like a beauty these days. I especially like the print headline -

"THE WORLD WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE WITHOUT FAT PEOPLE: HERE'S HOW YOU CAN HELP GET RID OF THEM"

BTW Rachel - LOVE your blog. That's killer. Fix this typo though - "I provides services that do two things: Saves you time, and makes you money. If it doesn’t do those two things, I’ll tell you not to do it."

cheers, Malkie.

[bigchezmktg]

Metronicity - I laughed so hard my kids ran in to see what could possibly be so funny!
How long ago did that ad run? It's truly a RIOT and definitely unconventional.

I appreciate the first paragraph rewrite. It sounds more like "me".

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by bigchezmktg

Metronicity - I laughed so hard my kids ran in to see what could possibly be so funny!
How long ago did that ad run? It's truly a RIOT and definitely unconventional.

I appreciate the first paragraph rewrite. It sounds more like "me".

22 years ago. That's why I reckon it would work now. It's more like the Bud Lite "Real Men of Genius" ad spots.

[bigchezmktg]

HA! Yes (my fav is the One-Handled Cooler Guy re Bud Lite).

[bigchezmktg]

I'm adding more before and after pix to the letter and have changed the headline. As I'm burying a family member today, the letter won't go up until later in the week. I'll post a link so y'all can give me your thoughts.

Thank you again for all the feedback, it really is appreciated!

[barakos9]

Originally Posted by bigchezmktg

I'm adding more before and after pix to the letter and have changed the headline. As I'm burying a family member today, the letter won't go up until later in the week. I'll post a link so y'all can give me your thoughts.

Thank you again for all the feedback, it really is appreciated!

Hello,

I've some comments about the visual page , the copy seems to be just fine.
but I see no relevancy between the concept (loss weight) and the design / look of your landing page.

if you want I am willing to help you out here,
contact me ASAP and I'll give you an offer that you just can't refused

[bigchezmktg]

I appreciate that, Barak!

The "visual page" isn't up yet. I just posted the PDF to get comments on the copy itself.

I'll post the link when the page is live.

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

A 46 word headline might just be
considered a mite too long.

Try to stick to 16/17 words or
less on your headlines.

You've seen some of Carlton's headlines, right?

They easily ran into 30+ words.

Of course he was a big proponent of "story" headlines".

Example:

"How A Completely Self-Taught Pip-Squeak Golfer Ignored Everything
The So-Called "Experts" Teach... And Stumbled On The ONE BIG
DARN SECRET To Instantly Adding Dozens Of Laser-Accurate Yards
To Your Tee Shots... Especially If You're Too Short, Too Tall, or Too
Out-Of-Shape!"

46 words (ironically).

I pulled that out of Vin's "7 Story Secrets", BTW... a great read.

But in fairness... not many people could do what Carlton can do and make those massive headlines read so well.

I think rather than worrying about length... ask yourself... does even freaking word in this headline hit my prospect's hot spots like a sledgehammer to their stomach?

If your answer is "no"... cut the chaff.

-Dan

[erwindegrave]

For me, we need to be careful about the choice of words that we choose because even if our motive is good, if our readers feel hurt about what we've said, it will ruin everything and not produce a sale...

But you can always site the problem in a positive manner :-)

[dorothydot]

Originally Posted by erwindegrave

For me, we need to be careful about the choice of words that we choose because even if our motive is good, if our readers feel hurt about what we've said, it will ruin everything and not produce a sale...

But you can always site the problem in a positive manner :-)

Absolutely right. Your readers are already in pain. That's why you need to tread lightly when reminding them.. just touch on the problem, no need to send a stake deep into their hearts!

Dot

[ClutterButterfly]

I agree "fat" is such an emotive word and could cause people to turn away. I guess it's because no-one can really be fat no more than we can be toast. We want to lose excess fat from our bodies and words driving towards that scenario would be more appealing to me personally than imagining I'm nothing more than a blob of yellow cells - yes, I remember the pain of being called 'fat' and the image of that in my head is still clear.

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by erwindegrave

For me, we need to be careful about the choice of words that we choose because even if our motive is good, if our readers feel hurt about what we've said, it will ruin everything and not produce a sale...

But you can always site the problem in a positive manner :-)

You can't be all things to all people. It doesn't work. Yes some people may be offended by the word "fat". Tough luck. Other people may be offended by words such as "weight-challenged" - I know I am.

Some people find my choice of words offensive. Others love it. Put away the shotgun and pick up the sniper rifle I say. And this girl's been there - she's been fat - 210 pounds of fat. I think she probably can write this page better than any of us. Fattie that she was. And now look at her - gorgeous!

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by dorothydot

Absolutely right. Your readers are already in pain. That's why you need to tread lightly when reminding them.. just touch on the problem, no need to send a stake deep into their hearts!

I once wrote, "No one wants to be seen with an ugly fatso like you." and the client nixed it fast. Changed that puppy to something like, "Imagine all the memories you'll make once you lose those pounds." real fast.

Still can't believe I wrote that first stupidity! (blush)
Dot

I agree Dot. The first line was a stinker. But it might have worked as "I used to be an ugly fatso - but look at me now!"

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by BizzyUK

Hi there

Well, I had a read and it is a bit of a mess to be frank.

Your message is confused and you have got some key facts spectacularly wrong .

It needs work.

All the best,
Mickey Devans.
PM me and I will help.

On your page head you've got the spelling of "scientifically" spectacularly wrong.

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by BizzyUK

Metronicity, me ol cheeky bugger, I had a look at your Frank Kern WSO and I have to say you have a pair on you - $999 WTF! When you learn to write in actual sentences, you will be one hell of a copywriter (why you bitch...meooww

Back at you - "It all starts with an idea".

As for "calories per day". Depends. This source, for instance, says "Caloric requirements are largely genetically determined and generally range between 1,000 and 2,000 calories a day."

You're British and are quoting from your NHS site.

Here's another answer from Wiki.com -

Calorie needs are based on body size, weight, muscle/fat ratio, age, rate of metabolism, activity level, and height. So, it varies from person to person.
For example, if a female is 5 feet tall, weighs 140 pounds, middle age, and does no exercise, she may need about 1,200 calories a day; whereas a young 5 feet tall female, weighs 100 pounds, and exercises moderately for 60 minutes/day may need about 1,600 a day.
There isn't a "one-calorie-level-fits-all" recommendation that works for everyone.

[bigchezmktg]

Bizzy,

While I definitely appreciate the feedback (and have taken some of what you said to heart), I think you failed to read the entire print on the link you posted, which said:

The recommended daily calorie intake varies depending on how old you are. For the average adult this is about 2,000 per day (women) and 2,500 per day (men). ...If you're trying to lose weight, you could start by eating 500 less calories per day

That fits in exactly with the statistic I quoted in my copy. So when the math is done...that's 1500 calories for a woman trying to LOSE weight.

[bigchezmktg]

Mickey,

Again, I think you've jumped the gun without reading what was written completely.

I did indeed write: "Emotional eaters can consume up to 5000 calories at a time and to up to 60,000 calories in a day. (For a woman, doctors recommended 1500 calories a day and for men, approximately 2200 calories!)."

The very same website you used as validation that my figures were wrong in fact confirms what I said in my letter: that to lose weight, you should take the 2000 calories for someone maintaining their weight and subtract 500 daily in order to lose weight. That's 1500 calories. Exactly what I said.

That comes both from my own interviews with doctors AND the website you sent me.

As for everything else in your last post, yes, it is all your opinion and I'll appreciate them for what they are. The only thing I got defensive on was your questioning of my figures by using a website that confirms what I originally said.

Your comments are still appreciated.

[bigchezmktg]

Bizzy,

As fun as its been to debate "Who's on first" with you, I have paying clients which require my attention.

We've gone back and forth on this whole "1500 calorie" thing and I've already proven that its valid. And if, in your eyes, I haven't, I'm actually fine with that too. You aren't my customer.

In fact, you're my competition.

I think what's more telling is the fact that you offer a subliminal CD with your program and turn around and call mine "gimmicky". Your quote: "It comes across to me as just another gimmicky weight loss "miracle cure" site, and I would, hand on heart, be suspicious of your products. This is my subjective opinion, and I cannot be wrong here."

Again, while I appreciate the constructive criticism from you personally, I think we've reached the end of our debate. I don't intend on responding to your inquiries from this point on unless they're on a topic other than "1500 calories".

[Daniel Scott]

Big Cheese (you should start signing your name),

I think the point here is that 1500 (or whatever) isn't an all-powerful number... you need to point out that it varies, but that 1500 is a good BALLPARK or something.

You just don't wanna get sued is all.

You're putting things in a way any sensible, responsible person would understand perfectly.

Unfortunately, you're also on the internet.

Just make sure you cross your "t"s and dot your "i"s.

-Dan

[bigchezmktg]

Daniel,

I see where you're coming from. I can alter the text to reflect that.

I appreciate all the feedback I've gotten. It's really been helpful!

All the best,
Rachel