Heart On My Sleeve...So To Speak

[Steven Wagenheim]

I honestly don't expect any responses to this thread or any help in any
way. I realize that we're all busy and what I'm going to ask is just way too
much to expect from anyone here...especially since I'm not really known in
the copywriting world.

But I've been writing my own copy for autoresponders and sales letters for
close to 7 years now. In fact, if it weren't for my writing skills...I'd be broke.

But it's one thing writing for yourself, in a niche where you are comfortable,
and writing for a client who is looking for a sales page on building chicken
coops.

It's just not the same thing.

Sure, I can confine my copywriting to clients with "IM" products, but
most of those folks already have their favorite scribe. New folks just
breaking in usually write their own copy because they can't afford a
writer.

And don't get me wrong...I don't want to make this a full time job. I worked
hard to get to the point where I don't have to work anymore.

But I'd like to do one sales letter a month.

And no, this isn't an issue about not being able to promote myself to
get clients. I know I can do that.

This is a moral issue.

I need to know that I'm a decent enough writer that if somebody does
hire me for a job, that they're going to get quality work that will convert
their page...provided they're selling something that people want to buy.

After all, if you're trying to sell a guide to "Underwater Pole Vaulting" I
don't think you're going to have many buyers.

Getting back to my own skills as a copywriter.

In all honesty, my sales pages, as far as design go, look like crap.

But it doesn't matter for me because I presell ALL my sales.

In fact, through my list building and autoresponder followup sales, I can
sell products WITHOUT a sales page...and often times do.

Anybody on my list knows this to be a fact. Essentially they get a buy now
button...literally.

But I'm not going to be there to sell to these people who hire me. The sales
page has to do the work...at least a better job than mine do.

Point is...I don't know if my sales pages suck JUST because of the look or
if the copy itself...the part that compels people to buy...isn't that great
either.

My typical conversion on most of my pages is 1% to 2%.

But is it that good because of the page or because of the fact that
people getting to that page are pre-sold very, very well?

I have no way of knowing. I can't be objective about my copy.

And I certainly can't expect anybody to look over my sales pages (for
content only because I'll get a designer to make client copy look good)
because, well, why should anybody?

I'm being totally honest. In the copywriting world, I'm pretty much a
non entity. I know I should probably just stick to what I do well...market.

But this is something I'd like to give a shot.

If I can't write copy that will allow the average guy in the street to sell
his product, then I don't want to take advantage of them. My reputation
means too much to me.

And it's not like I need the money.

It's more a "Can I do it?" kind of thing.

Call it pride...call it whatever you want.

I'd like to think this is something I can do.

Anyway, I'm not expecting any replies and I'm certainly not expecting
anybody to look at any of my sales letters (page appearance aside).

Like I said, I was just in the mood to wear my heart on my sleeve and
and share some personal feelings with you "pros".

Thanks for listening to me babble.

[Alex Cohen]

Steven,

I'd be happy to critique one of your sales letters. You've given so much to the Warrior Forum, it's time we give back.

Just PM me with the URL of a sales letter you'd like critiqued, and I'll take a look.

Alex

[Andrew Gould]

Post one of your sales page links. I'll offer my thoughts on it and I'll bet a few others here will too.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by kfk2003

Post one of your sales page links. I'll offer my thoughts on it and I'll bet a few others here will too.

I'd rather not do that as it can come off as self promotional. I'd have to go
make a copy and take out the buy now links, and even then, the mods might
not take too kindly to it.

But thanks for the suggestion.

[robinpike]

Absolutely... that is what we are here for... to share the love. Steve, I have no doubt that if you put the link to your page on here you will get more than you desired in responses. Or if you would like, you can PM me with the link.

Happy Holidays to you!!!

Robin :-)

[travlinguy]

Steve, you're pretty much a legend on this forum. And... I'm pretty much a peanut by comparison. And... you've shared some serious stuff in your post. My first reaction to what you've written is almost shock. Specifically, because someone of your stature should be getting way more than 1 - 2% on a pre-sold offer.

I've made it no secret since arriving that I'm a content writer who also likes to write sales copy. My first venture into copywriting was as Forrest Gump. I wrote the sales copy to a product I created because I thought that's what any writer was supposed to do. And by accident I was pulling 4+ percent for my first outing as a copywriter in 2003.

I see the response you get to your posts and they are many. In fact, many is an understatement. People want to jump into almost anything you have to say. And there's usually a good reason for that. You usually have a lot of great insight.

And that's why I'm baffled by your average conversion rates on pre-sold offers. What I’d say to anyone coming here asking for advice is to show us an example of your stuff. I rarely buy any kind of IM stuff so I’m not familiar with your work. So, since you’ve already taken off your shirt and pants, you might as well get out of your skivvies too and give us the full Monte. Let's see what you've got. We’ll be kind…

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by travlinguy

Steve, you're pretty much a legend on this forum. And... I'm pretty much a peanut by comparison. And... you've shared some serious stuff in your post. My first reaction to what you've written is almost shock. Specifically, because someone of your stature should be getting way more than 1 - 2% on a pre-sold offer.

I've made it no secret since arriving that I'm a content writer who also likes to write sales copy. My first venture into copywriting was as Forrest Gump. I wrote the sales copy to a product I created because I thought that's what any writer was supposed to do. And by accident I was pulling 4+ percent for my first outing as a copywriter in 2003.

I see the response you get to your posts and they are many. In fact, many is an understatement. People want to jump into almost anything you have to say. And there's usually a good reason for that. You usually have a lot of great insight.

And that's why I'm baffled by your average conversion rates on pre-sold offers. What I’d say to anyone coming here asking for advice is to show us an example of your stuff. I rarely buy any kind of IM stuff so I’m not familiar with your work. So, since you’ve already taken off your shirt and pants, you might as well get out of your skivvies too and give us the full Monte. Let's see what you've got. We’ll be kind…

Legend? I don't think so.

I probably should have qualified that 1 to 2%.

That's on cold traffic that I got through an article and/or traffic generation
site where I can hit them with a sales email first.

My personal list converts a ridiculous 10% when I send them an offer.

But that's because these people know and trust me. It's not the same
thing.

And quite honestly, a lot of the traffic I direct to my pages is junk traffic...

TEs
Safelists
FFA Posters
Message Board Users

So this is going to kill anybody's conversion.

And yet...with all that crap...I still do 1% to 2%.

But again, is it because of the sales page or because of how I approach
these people initially. And I'm talking about people who buy BEFORE they
get on my list, because once they get on it, then it's a different ball game.

And quite honestly, I do more lead capture page promotion than actual
sales page promotion anyway because I know my sales pages are nothing
to look at. So instead, I give them the free content right away, treat
them right once they get on my list, and build the relationship.

So getting an accurate handle on my true sales page effectiveness is
close to impossible. I don't really send enough traffic to it BEFORE these
people get to know me.

Anyway, I don't want to post any links here publicly because I don't want
to turn this thread into a self promotion fest.

[travlinguy]

Okay, I guess I made a pretty big assumption. I figured you were talking about selling to forum members. Anyway, I don't think it would hurt anything for you to post a link here. Every day forum members do just that without fear of being chastised for self-promotion. I've always thought that was a big part of the purpose of this board.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by travlinguy

Okay, I guess I made a pretty big assumption. I figured you were talking about selling to forum members. Anyway, I don't think it would hurt anything for you to post a link here. Every day forum members do just that without fear of being chastised for self-promotion. I've always thought that was a big part of the purpose of this board.

Maybe, but I have a history here and...well, let's just leave it at that.

I do appreciate the offer though. I have PM'd the people who offered and
they're taking a look at a couple of my sites.

Oh, and as far as my forum conversion, that's not even fair. My WSOs sell
like, well, ridiculously so.

It's just not the same thing.

[Ashley Gable]

Don't you have a copywriting course for sale? For marketers?

I do agree with travelin guy though, I consider you a "legend" (however you want to define that) or at least one of the top warriors here. I have only been here 8 months and your posts have helped me a lot. If I see you have started a thread or replied to a post I immediately read it.

So what I got from your post is that you are concerned that you cant properly gauge your copy writing skills because of the pre-selling you have in place.
And that you know the IM market so well that you will always do good?

Is this correct?


Ashley

P.S. I know you dont want to start some big discussion about this, or at least that is the impression I got from your post, and I know you want to be an excellent copywriter for, as you said, personal reasons, but an A + marketer combined with a not-yet-there copywriter seems like a better situation then just a good copywriter.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by AshleyAA

Don't you have a copywriting course for sale? For marketers?

I do agree with travelin guy though, I consider you a "legend" (however you want to define that) or at least one of the top warriors here. I have only been here 8 months and your posts have helped me a lot. If I see you have started a thread or replied to a post I immediately read it.

So what I got from your post is that you are concerned that you cant properly gauge your copy writing skills because of the pre-selling you have in place.
And that you know the IM market so well that you will always do good?

Is this correct?


Ashley

Wanna laugh? I actually do have a basic copywriting book that I sell.

One person got it and is now a professional copywriter doing very well.

The basics are easy. Anybody can learn them.

But then there is a talent...and that can't be taught.

While I understand all the do's and don'ts about headlines, sub heads
bullets and all that other crap, coming up with just the right words...

That's a talent.

Sure, you can go and scrape old copywriter's works (plenty do it) but
that's not for me. If it can't come from my own head, I'm not putting it
on paper.

There is a lot about the copywriting profession I don't like, but there is
also a lot I do like. And if I can write a sales letter for somebody a lot
cheaper than they'd have to pay a "pro" and still get them decent
results, I will have felt that I have done a real service.

That's ultimately what this comes down to.

But if I don't have the talent (with all my smarts) to write compelling
copy (which is more than just learning some rules) then I don't want to
screw up somebody's product launch.

Blunt enough?

[Ashley Gable]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Wanna laugh? I actually do have a basic copywriting book that I sell.

One person got it and is now a professional copywriter doing very well.

The basics are easy. Anybody can learn them.

But then there is a talent...and that can't be taught.

While I understand all the do's and don'ts about headlines, sub heads
bullets and all that other crap, coming up with just the right words...

That's a talent.

Sure, you can go and scrape old copywriter's works (plenty do it) but
that's not for me. If it can't come from my own head, I'm not putting it
on paper.

There is a lot about the copywriting profession I don't like, but there is
also a lot I do like. And if I can write a sales letter for somebody a lot
cheaper than they'd have to pay a "pro" and still get them decent
results, I will have felt that I have done a real service.

That's ultimately what this comes down to.

But if I don't have the talent (with all my smarts) to write compelling
copy (which is more than just learning some rules) then I don't want to
screw up somebody's product launch.

Blunt enough?

Okay I think I see what you are saying now.

You know all the rules and guidelines about writing effective copy, but you are not sure of whether you have picked it up enough in order to write without thinking about those rules and guidelines?

You want to write effective copy that comes solely from your head and not from some books?

If so, then I think that is great, yet as you already said ... how will you figure out whether you have or not?

Why dont you pick some obscure niche and write a sales letter for it, something you know nothing about, see if you can get a decent conversion. Send ppc traffic to it, so there is no preselling involved?

I may be way off but I just want to help, as I said, your posts have helped me a lot.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by AshleyAA

Okay I think I see what you are saying now.

You know all the rules and guidelines about writing effective copy, but you are not sure of whether you have picked it up enough in order to write without thinking about those rules and guidelines?

You want to write effective copy that comes solely from your head and not from some books?

If so, then I think that is great, yet as you already said ... how will you figure out whether you have or not?

Why dont you pick some obscure niche and write a sales letter for it, something you know nothing about, see if you can get a decent conversion. Send ppc traffic to it, so there is no preselling involved?

I may be way off but I just want to help, as I said, your posts have helped me a lot.

Good idea, but if I do write for others, I am only going to take on clients
looking either for "IM" related copy or for niches that I know VERY well. I
don't want this to turn into a full time job. I don't need one, not with all
the marketing I do. I just want something to do part time, maybe a sales
letter a month, to give me a few extra bucks, but more importantly, to
help people who can't afford high priced copywriters.

Clearer now?

[Ashley Gable]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Good idea, but if I do write for others, I am only going to take on clients
looking either for "IM" related copy or for niches that I know VERY well. I
don't want this to turn into a full time job. I don't need one, not with all
the marketing I do. I just want something to do part time, maybe a sales
letter a month, to give me a few extra bucks, but more importantly, to
help people who can't afford high priced copywriters.

Clearer now?

Yes it is. So you want to write a sales letter once a month or so, for someone who cant really afford high priced copywriters, and for someone in the IM niche or a niche you know.

So basically you want to give some newbies a chance at some good copy without the high prices. And it will give you some extra money and a chance to do some more writing.

you could always post a WSO and take on 1 client per month but as a "rewrite" service, have them post a link to their self written sales letter and if it fits the criteria take them on. Write a completely new letter for them.

Hope you get it figured out!

By the way ... when you say you "market" do you mean affiliate wise or do you take on clients and market for them?

Just curious.

Ashley

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by AshleyAA

By the way ... when you say you "market" do you mean affiliate wise or do you take on clients and market for them?

Just curious.

Ashley

I market my own products and also do affiliate marketing as well.

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I need to know that I'm a decent enough writer that if somebody does hire me for a job, that they're going to get quality work that will convert their page...provided they're selling something that people want to buy.

The only way to find out is to do it. Get some critiques on your existing sales letters from professional copywriters. I'd suggest either doing it privately with more than one or hiring a copywriter(s) to do a paid critique. A paid critique will be more in-depth vs. a free one simply because there is a limit to how much free work an experienced copywriter can justify doing without risking a blown paid client deadline.

After all, if you're trying to sell a guide to "Underwater Pole Vaulting" I
don't think you're going to have many buyers.

You will definitely want to prescreen any potential clients. If they have a bad or weak product... poorly targeted... or a bad offer, then any of those can bury a strong sales letter.

If I can't write copy that will allow the average guy in the street to sell
his product, then I don't want to take advantage of them. My reputation
means too much to me.

See my answer above. Sales copy is the 3rd most important element after targeting the right prospects and making a strong offer.

And it's not like I need the money.

It's more a "Can I do it?" kind of thing.

Try a low-cost WSO with a few spots. If you feel so inclined, take part or all of the monies and donate them to a worthy charity. That can even be the theme of your WSO.

Thanks for listening to me babble.

No problem. Just let me know where to send the bill.

I'm kidding!

Glad to help another positive contributor to this great forum.

Take care,

Mike

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

The only way to find out is to do it. Get some critiques on your existing sales letters from professional copywriters. I'd suggest either doing it privately with more than one or hiring a copywriter(s) to do a paid critique. A paid critique will be more in-depth vs. a free one simply because there is a limit to how much free work an experienced copywriter can justify doing without risking a blown paid client deadline.



You will definitely want to prescreen any potential clients. If they have a bad or weak product... poorly targeted... or a bad offer, then any of those can bury a strong sales letter.



See my answer above. Sales copy is the 3rd most important element after targeting the right prospects and making a strong offer.



Try a low-cost WSO with a few spots. If you feel so inclined, take part or all of the monies and donate them to a worthy charity. That can even be the theme of your WSO.



No problem. Just let me know where to send the bill.

I'm kidding!

Glad to help another positive contributor to this great forum.

Take care,

Mike

Thank you Mike. Getting feedback like this from you is gold.

Means a lot to me.

[JohnMcCabe]

Steve, I'm going to come at this from a little different perspective...

Have you considered doing your one project per month on a pay for performance basis?

Screen potential projects in much the same way Kieth B. did in the main forum, then work for a percentage of the gross.

That way, whoever you end up writing for is paying you out of sales, not out of pocket...

You might make more and cost your client less in terms of actual expense.

Just an idea...

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Steve, I'm going to come at this from a little different perspective...

Have you considered doing your one project per month on a pay for performance basis?

Screen potential projects in much the same way Kieth B. did in the main forum, then work for a percentage of the gross.

That way, whoever you end up writing for is paying you out of sales, not out of pocket...

You might make more and cost your client less in terms of actual expense.

Just an idea...

I tried that with the one sales letter I did write for somebody but they
never got back to me with any results.

That's the risk in doing jobs like that. Unless you really know the person
well, you're taking a big risk. Even a testimonial would have been nice.
But to do all that work for nothing?

Sorry, I don't work for nothing...nobody should.

[RickDuris]

OK Steven, basically, your post is not about copywriting.

It's about self-confidence--knowing you can, without a doubt, do it in your sleep, blindfolded, with your arms tied behind your back.

Maybe you can and maybe you can't. (By the way, I am not questioning your skills at all. I am writing, believing everything you have said.)

What I am questioning, perhaps challenging you on, is your belief in yourself.

If you are serious about this particular ambition of yours, then commit to yourself first and then to your client.

Then perform.

Of course, if you are good, you should be compensated handsomely and how you want to structure that is up to you. The more self-confidence you have and certainty of their success, the more you can demand upfront.

Not to be cocky or arrogant, my partners and I ask for (and get) tens of thousands upfront. And there's a waiting line. There's a specific reason: We can perform on demand.

So bottomline: Can you perform? Like, do you know for sure? If you can, you can write your own ticket.

PS: I know it's a chicken/egg thing.

My coaching?

Trust yourself, buddy. If you can do it for yourself, you can absolutely do it for someone else.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by RickDuris

PS: I know it's a chicken/egg thing.

Yes, it's a chicken and egg thing and not as easy as you make it to be.

Sure, I can come off as a cocky SOB and tell people that I can write them
kick ass copy and here are my fees...

But where is my proof?

Where is my track record?

What reality do I base my claims on?

Anybody can say anything.

But more importantly, as I said, my reputation means too much to me to
take on a client, screw the whole damn thing up because I'm not good
enough to actually do the job.

The money to me just isn't that important (I'm doing very well as a
product creator and marketer) that I'm going to risk my reputation on
a whim.

As I said, it would be nice to have somebody (who knows) to objectively
evaluate my work, but as I also realize that is a lot to ask, I am not
asking it.

This thread was nothing more than a way to put my feelings out there
and not to look for some kind of handout for evaluation or anything else.

[RickDuris]

Ok, Steven,

Here's the thing: You have to COMMIT.

If you're unwilling to commit to yourself, then don't do it.

When it comes to breakfast, "The chicken is interested, the pig is committed."

Assuming you trust your skills, you don't need testimonials or proof. You really don't. You be surprised what you can do on sheer force of commitment.

I know it sounds heretical if copywriters read this. I know we as copywriters are brainwashed to believe that testimonials matter. And they DO significantly improve sales.

Let's put this in a completely different but similar context.

Let's say I want a relationship with a certain "hot" girl I like.

Will I need proof I'm a good guy? That I am great in bed? Do I need testimonials? Do I need a nice car or a fat wallet? Or friends in high places telling them how great I am?

No.

I just need to believe in myself. And have the guts and belief in myself to approach AND PERSIST.

Steven, you're competent, perhaps proficient at copywriting. So own it. And then screen for the Clients that would appreciate the value you bring to the table.

All you want is just one a month. That ain't that hard with the skills you have.

Again, this may sound like I am challenging you--and I am. But that's neither here nor there. What matters is you challenge yourself.

Let's look at it one other way...

Let's say you trust yourself and you find a prospect and THEY ARE SERIOUS and you are too.

Here's what you say:

"Ok, I don't think I can help you... I *KNOW* I can help you.

The only question is how serious are you about this project.

Here's how I work: [Then you do your proposal]

As you can see, I am requesting an upfront retainer of X. If you're comfortable with that, great and let's move forward in good faith.

Now, you may wonder why I would request a retainer if I am so confident of your success. Like why wouldn't just be paid on performance, after the fact?

Well, it's simple.

I have found that in regards to doing my best work, my Clients need a little "skin in the game."

That way I know AND MORE IMPORTANTLY *YOU KNOW* you are serious and you know I am serious as well as committed.

That arrangement or structure gives all of us the greatest opportunity for collaborative success..."

PS: You want to be validated first. It doesn't work like that.

When I wanted to become an expert in my career, nobody knighted me as an "expert." I had to do it myself first, then everything else fell into place.

[MikeHumphreys]

Hey Steven,

Having had the pleasure of talking with Rick Duris by phone in length, I can tell you that he's the real deal. He's been doing marketing and copy for a long time... and has produced some amazing results in his career.

He might not have many posts yet but he's quickly embracing the Warrior philosophy of helping other Warriors out and doing it from the heart.

Take care,

Mike

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by RickDuris

Let's say I want a relationship with a certain "hot" girl I like.

Will I need proof I'm a good guy? That I am great in bed? Do I need testimonials? Do I need a nice car or a fat wallet? Or friends in high places telling them how great I am?

Totally different. Because I did get the hot girl I wanted. Been married for
over 25 years to her.

Past performance and testimonials don't mean squat.

You walk up to her, ask if you can buy her a drink, at the same time
giving her a pleasant but not fake smile. You then ask her about her. You
make the conversation about her and show you're interested in her.

In short...you treat her with respect and like a lady.

She won't give a rat's ass if you were a son of a bitch to every girl you
met before her because she'll never know...She doesn't want to know.

All that matters is that at that point in time...you are treating her the
way she wants to be treated.

With a sales letter...sure, I can take the same approach, say that I can
write them a great sales letter. Send them a professionally made up
proposal. Cross all the T's and dot all the I's and come off as a total pro.

You then have to deliver on the copy.

With a girl, I have found that delivering is nothing more than treating her
with respect and kindness and thinking of her needs first.

But with copy...it's a cold impersonal business.

It's how much money did your sales letter make me after you told me how
great a sales letter you can write me.

And given that my own sales letters for my own products, when
presented to a cold market, only convert at 1 to 2% tops...how well is
my sales letter for a client going to do...even if I do get a professional
graphic designer to spruce it up?

So I guess, in a sense, I am answering my own question. If somebody is
content enough with a 1% to 2% conversion (based on writing copy for
myself) then I'll get the job. If not, then I won't.

And that is really how I have to present myself and my services...up front
and full disclosure.

That way, I am more likely to find a client who will be happy with my
work.

Naturally, I will have to charge accordingly. And I'm fine with that.

Anyway, thank you for your input. It actually helped me think through
this more than you realize. Your dating analogy, while not really the same,
made me realize what the differences were and thus, what I had to do
to handle this in a way where I didn't feel like I was not giving somebody
the work they were paying for.

And...if those early jobs turn out to really kick some serious numbers,
then I can adjust my fees accordingly.

Again...thank you for your input. It made things a lot clearer.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Hey Steven,

Having had the pleasure of talking with Rick Duris by phone in length, I can tell you that he's the real deal. He's been doing marketing and copy for a long time... and has produced some amazing results in his career.

He might not have many posts yet but he's quickly embracing the Warrior philosophy of helping other Warriors out and doing it from the heart.

Take care,

Mike

Thanks Mike. Rick actually said some things that made me realize what I
have to do (read my above post)

I'm going to have fun with this but I'm going to do it on my own terms
just like I do my marketing...so that the prospect knows I am being
totally up front with them.

I don't make as many sales as the big guns working like this, but it really
lets me sleep well at night.

Thank you both...you've been a tremendous help.

[RickDuris]

Thank you very much for the acknowledgement, Michael. - Rick Duris

[RickDuris]

Steven, you got it.

And I am glad for you. Yes, do it on your own terms--that's totally the point of this conversation.

YOU MAKE THE RULES.

- Rick Duris

[Nathan Alexander]

Hey Steve, if I was doing this I'd just address it in the copy. Honesty works.

(But folks on here know more than I do...)

But here's what would sound good to me if I was reading it...(If I may be so bold) You'd have my confidence at least.

(Again, I don't make money as a copywriter)

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by Nathan Alexander

Hey Steve, if I was doing this I'd just address it in the copy. Honesty works.

(But folks on here know more than I do...)

But here's what would sound good to me if I was reading it...(If I may be so bold) You'd have my confidence at least.

(Again, I don't make money as a copywriter)

Nathan...what a great sales letter.

Now THAT is copywriting.