Makepeace or Carlton?

[Shaleniie Devi]

Hey All

Thanks for stopping by

So I want to learn the art of copywriting and have been doing quite abit of research in the forum to figure out my best starting place.

From what I've gathered, if I can quote a post from another thread

"If I had it to do over again, I'd do this ...

1. Get and study a good copywriting course. One with a step-by-step approach that takes you from A to Z.

2. Find a mentor who will work closely with you and help you improve.

Alex"

This seems to be the best way to go.

Before Step 2, Step 1 needs to be done first and again based on my research, I have narrowed the A-Z course that I should get to either Clayton Makepeace's "Quick-Start Copywriting System" and John Carlton's "Simple Writing System".

Both are established copywriters and both have courses that seem to be super power-packed... and as a result, I'm not sure which one to pick

At first I wanted to go for Carlton's because of the cost but then I found that Makepeace's course didn't differ much (if you add s&h and conversion rates).

I would like to hear your thoughts on which I should go for, so that I can calculate the total sum and then work a plan to make the money to get the course, whichever it may be.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and I look forward to your advice.

Shaleniie Devi

[Paul Hooper-Kelly]

Hi Shaleniie,

I sense you're really serious about being the best, so I recommend you actually get both courses - eventually. That's because they will both give you different takes on the science and art of copy writing.

I have a soft spot for John Carlton, as he was my first tutor. His insights and style are spot on.

I came to Clayton, later on, and his great strength is his ability to get to the prospect's emotional trigger spots. That's due to his early career , when he wrote sales letters for charities, soliciting donations. There was no product, so he had to talk about how good the prospect would feel when they had parted with their cash.

Both are awesome teachers. So which one should you get first?

I would recommend you read as many of their sales letters as you can find and start with the one who is closest to your own writing style.

Truth is, you never stop learning in this exciting business of selling. I've just cut a check for five grand for Gary Bencivenga's Retirement Seminar DVDs. After all, just one little nugget will quickly repay the investment. So that's another one for you to put on your list.

Anyway, you are certainly going about it the right way and aiming for quality.

Warmest regards and best wishes for your future blockbusters!

Paul

[Shaleniie Devi]

Hi Paul

Thank you for responding and for your very, very kind words

I think the recommendation you gave is a fantastic starting point - I will go check out both Makepeace's and Carlton's salesletters and doing so should be able to help me decide on which teacher to learn from first.

Also, thank you for alerting me to Gary Bencivenga's DVDs - it's another gold course that I am going to add to my list. Gary wrote that one of the requirements to get the DVDs is that I must either be a Star or a Future Star (check!)

Though the scarcity trick is playing on my mind, I'm going to keep focused on getting either Makepeace's or Carlton's course first.

I'm so tempted to get all at one go but then I won't get anywhere with anything. So I'm going to stick to ONE first.

Shaleniie Devi's Must-Get Copywriting Gold List

(1) Makepeace or Carlton course
(2) depends on the above
(3) Gary Bencivenga's DVDs (or should I make this #2 hmm....)

Thanks Paul!

Warmest regards
Shaleniie

[aikay77]

Hi,

I saw your question and wanted to add my advice. I love John Carlton. The man is gooooood, plus he learnt his trade from Gary Halbert himself! John also has a great course on copywriting called 'The Simple Copywriting System'.

Clayton also is a heavy hitter. He has his 6-Figure Copywriting course which is also great.


But know this: John writes for preety much any niche. He's versatiole and adapts to different topics. Clayton on the other hand, focuses on the financial market.

Which of them should you choose? I'd go with John Carlton, but do not neglect to study Makepeace's course and blog. He dishes out awesome information daily!

[MikeHumphreys]

Hi Shaleniie,

This is a tough question for me... it's sort of like asking a guy who is the prettiest girl in Hollywood.

It depends on your personal preferences.

Back to your original question: Makepeace or Carlton?

Which one has a writing style that connects deepest for you?

Which one has a writing style that is similar to the way you already write now?

I own both courses and both of them are great. I'd recommend either one without hesitation.

Personally, I connected deeper with Clayton's course.

Of course, I started studying Clayton's stuff several years before I ever tackled Carlton's materials, so I probably already had a predeveloped bias.

What will say is that comparing either one's free stuff on their sites to their paid materials... there's no comparison. Both of them elevate their game even higher with their paid training materials.

Hope that helps,

Mike

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by aikay77

But know this: John writes for preety much any niche. He's versatiole and adapts to different topics. Clayton on the other hand, focuses on the financial market.

Not true.

Makepeace has a number of controls he's written for health-related niches.

In recent years, he's writing almost exclusively for one client b/c he gets 7 figures royalties from the deal.

[Paul Hooper-Kelly]

Hi Shaleniie and aikay77,

Okay, so that's two votes for John Carlton. And yes, aikay77, John worked with and was mentored (and had his scribblings ripped to pieces, in the early days) by Gary H, which means you get two for the price of one there.

Glad you found my advice helpful, Shaleniie.

Yes the Gary Bencivenga DVDs are a worthy addition. Yes, you need to show you are a serious player - and not simply having $5,000 going spare. So I suggest going with your choice of John Carlton OR Clayton Makepeace first. Get some successes and then go for Gary!

I guess you'll get some more suggestions in a few hours when my American cousins wake up.

Warmest regards,

Paul

[Andrew Gould]

For the complete beginner I think "Quick-Start Copywriting System" would be the better choice. It breaks down every aspect of creating a sales letter in detail, in comparison Carlton's course gives a broader overview.

Both are great and loaded with information but as a beginner I'd start with Makepeace.

[Moolah_Copywriting]

I agree with Paul. Don't choose get both. I favor Carlton's approach for headline and lead construction. It's hard to beat Makepeace for body copy, proof, and offers. Each has their strengths.

Stan

[Bill Jeffels]

I like the way John Carlton teaches. When I read Carlton’s Kick Ass Copywriting Secrets Manual everything he taught just seemed to make sense to me.

All the tips and tricks he spoke of were truly amazing. Once I started reading the manual I couldn’t put it down. I don't have SWS but I assume it would be just as good or better.

-Bill

[Loren Woirhaye]

Well, the first step, before investing $1000s in a course, would be
to read the masters.

If you're on Clayton's list he sends out a list of 19 books you
should get familiar with. I've read most of them, but a few are
out of print and only available at insane collector prices, so
I skipped them - notably Sackheim and Reeves I think. The rest
are all in print. In any case, the OOP books are influential enough
you'll pick up the same info reading Ries & Trout and other
more recent stuff. Drayton Bird's books on copywriting and
on direct marketing are two of the best ever.

No high-end course will substitute for the groundwork of reading
the advertising classics.

I prefer Makepeace's style personally so he's the one I follow
closest.

[Alex Cohen]

Which one has a writing style that connects deepest for you?

Which one has a writing style that is similar to the way you already write now?

Good advice Mike.

Alex

[Bruce Wedding]

You may want to read this thread:
Must Read Copywriting Books and Subscriptions

Or it is nicely summarized in Mr. Subtle's toon:

[Shaleniie Devi]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Hi Shaleniie,

This is a tough question for me... it's sort of like asking a guy who is the prettiest girl in Hollywood.

It depends on your personal preferences.

Back to your original question: Makepeace or Carlton?

Which one has a writing style that connects deepest for you?

Which one has a writing style that is similar to the way you already write now?

I own both courses and both of them are great. I'd recommend either one without hesitation.

Mike

Hi Mike

Your Hollywood analogy makes alot of sense. Both you and Paul Hooper-Kelly talk about the importance of finding the teacher who I connect with and I did just that earlier in the day reading through their blog posts, whatever salesletters I could find and I have decided to go with Carlton as a starting point.

I'm choosing Carlton first because his writing style surprisingly makes me feel good and subconsciously gives me the confidence that I can do this.

I was heavily leaning towards Makepeace but I found his course seeming to be extremely deep and as I want to get cracking as soon as I can, Makepeace will be for when I have gotten some success after applying Carlton's teachings

Thanks Mike!

Originally Posted by Loren Woirhaye

Well, the first step, before investing $1000s in a course, would be
to read the masters.

If you're on Clayton's list he sends out a list of 19 books you
should get familiar with. I've read most of them, but a few are
out of print and only available at insane collector prices, so
I skipped them - notably Sackheim and Reeves I think. The rest
are all in print. In any case, the OOP books are influential enough
you'll pick up the same info reading Ries & Trout and other
more recent stuff. Drayton Bird's books on copywriting and
on direct marketing are two of the best ever.

No high-end course will substitute for the groundwork of reading
the advertising classics.

I prefer Makepeace's style personally so he's the one I follow
closest.

Hi Loren

I just signed up with Clayton's list and will be looking to get the 17 classics as soon as I can. While I agree with you that reading the advertising classics will give me a solid groundwork, I find myself able to grasp things better with interactive sessions...albeit not directly but I think the SWS course will allow me to learn from Carlton's verbal teachings and the students who attended through the DVDs.

Thank you for highlighting the importance of the classics

Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan

For me, the classic books are great but they really do not
get me working.

I like Carlton's course because it involves me in the process. Just
reading through a book has not worked well in MY development.

I think the reason I liked Scwhab's How to Write a Good Advertisement
is the quiz he puts at the end of some chapters.

I remember not being able to answer any questions after reading
the first chapter. If the quiz was not there I would not have stopped and went back to find the answers.

I wrote out the question and answers to help it stick better.

Most of us read through an entire book and really learn nothing. If
in school we read a math book without working out the problems
we would know nothing. Most books are informational and not
actionable.

This is where a good course wins

I have yet to read a book as good as Carlton's system (for learning). I
would suggest Scwhab's book before spending the $$$ to make sure
this is what you want to do.

Hi Paul

As mentioned in reply to Loren, I too find myself preferring the interactive involvement. I find books to be too theoretical for my brain to absorb.

I will be popping by the bookstore though sometime soon to get Schwab's book as per your suggestion. I do know for sure though I want to learn copywriting and so will be going ahead with getting Carlton's course but in the meantime will devour the free resources available



To everyone who responded, thank you so much for all the advice. They have provided me with a lot of food for thought.

Shaleniie Devi's Must-Get Copywriting Gold List

(1) Carlton (undergraduate)
(2) Makepeace (masters)
(3) Gary Bencivenga's DVDs (phD)

Together with these courses, I will be reading the classics and all these, I believe, will give me a well-rounded basic education on copywriting and I look to applying my learnings as soon as I can.

Now on to formulating my plan to make the money for Carlton's course.....

Shaleniie Devi

[Paul Hooper-Kelly]

Hi Shalenie,

Glad myself and the others have been of assistance.

Talking of John Carlton: I don't know whether it is still available, but his earlier work, "Kick-Ass Copywriting Secrets Of A Marketing Rebel" has pride of place on my bookshelf - as it does on many other top gun copywriters.

True, it's not interactive, but it's a true powerhouse of a copywriting manual!

Warmest regards,

Paul

[Shaleniie Devi]

Hi Paul

The sweet thing about Carlton's Simple Writing System is...............that he's including the updated version of "Kick-Ass Copywriting Secrets Of A Marketing Rebel"!

That was the selling punch for me because as you said, it's on the bookshelves of many top gun copywriters like yourself and I would sure love to get in the know myself.

Thanks for all your help Paul in assisting me with my decision.

All My Best
Shaleniie

[smak]

hI ALL

I can comment on Clayton's course cause I got it.

Its very through and has chapter for each copy component i.e offer, ps, headline and so on. Has a chapter even devoted to Eugene Swartz's 'Breakthrough advertising'. You get some good extras like a special report about 50 pages long that talks solely about using emotional words to get the prospect involved.

However what I did find was that almost all the examples shown in the course were to do with health market and financial market. So if u r writing copy for these 2 markets or specialize in this field, then all the more Clayton's course may work wonders for you.

But there were not any examples to swipe relating to 'biz. opp' market which was to honest I was expecting.

But neverthless its a amazing course (over 1000 pages) that really gets you thinking. Even though I am no copywriter, but after having read it, I am driven to experiment with writing copy myself.


smak

[Shaleniie Devi]

Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan

I think John still has License to Steal in there as well. That is a
great seminar DVD set.

I've heard so much about this DVD set but I did not see it in his bundle offer.

Well hopefully it will be a surprise addition when I place my order

Shaleniie

[Shaleniie Devi]

Originally Posted by smak

hI ALL

I can comment on Clayton's course cause I got it.

Its very through and has chapter for each copy component i.e offer, ps, headline and so on. Has a chapter even devoted to Eugene Swartz's 'Breakthrough advertising'. You get some good extras like a special report about 50 pages long that talks solely about using emotional words to get the prospect involved.

However what I did find was that almost all the examples shown in the course were to do with health market and financial market. So if u r writing copy for these 2 markets or specialize in this field, then all the more Clayton's course may work wonders for you.

But there were not any examples to swipe relating to 'biz. opp' market which was to honest I was expecting.

But neverthless its a amazing course (over 1000 pages) that really gets you thinking. Even though I am no copywriter, but after having read it, I am driven to experiment with writing copy myself.


smak

Hi Smak

Thanks for your feedback on Clayton's course. I was right in thinking it is a comprehensive course but since I want to get cracking as soon as I can, Clayton will be for when I've grasped the basic copywriting skills

Thanks for highlighting about the focus on financial and health markets - something not in my interest for now.

Shaleniie

[Sam Mlambo]

Definitely get both courses when you can. Remember to take what you learn and implement immediately. That's helped me become a much better copywriter quickly. Make money with what you learn then go buy some more top notch resources!

Best wishes to you and your journey in becoming a great copywriter

- Sam

[Harlan]

As someone who trained under Carlton and I'm on the faculty of the Simple Writing System I recommend you wait until it opens again.

Not only do you get a great step-by-step course with tons of bonuses, you also get to work with a world class mentor.

It might be Scott Haines who worked with Gary Halbert

David Deutsch who is a leading copywriter for Boardroom.

Mike Morgan who's become the GoTo Guy for launches.

Warrior Kevin Rogers who is the most patient teacher on the forum.

or many other superstars.

It's the chance to work with one of these people and write your own letter that makes it unique.

And John checks in on your work nearly every day.

And as far as the "Retirement DVDs", the event was great for the networking and for a simple formula offered.

Is it worth $5000 for the recordings? No. Not in my opinion. It is certainly NOT a course in copywriting.

[Shaleniie Devi]

Hi Harlan

This is interesting because I thought the mentoring will never be re-opened.

Do you have an estimate timeline of when it might be re-opening again or I will need to wait for Carlton to make a public announcement?

Thanks
Shaleniie

[Kevin Rogers]

Hi Shaleniie,

I expect the next SWS live mentoring session to happen in March or April, but the date has not been set... at least not to my knowledge.

But, you can get the course materials anytime the simple writing system website, then join the mentoring session at equal discount when it opens. In fact, I often recommend people go through the system on their own once before the mentoring... it makes the time with your coach even more valuable.

Best,

Kevin

[jurisaragih]

Hey Shaleniie,

Greetings from here, Indonesia, as a near country to your town.

Both are great.

[RogozRazvan]

Carlton is for the usual folks, biz op, consumer.
Makepeace is for the financial and health market.

I'd go with both. I have found the "SWS" interesting, but not complete.
On the other hand, "Quick Start Copywriting System" (it had another name when I got it) is a monster of a book. It took me over three months just to study the binders.


Razvan

[Jennie Heckel]

Dear Shaleniie,

I have both, Clayton's and John's courses, plus MIchael Mastersons' 6 Figure and the Web Copywriting course.

If I had to chose, I would chose Clayton's Desktop Copy Coach.

I found the way Clayton presents the layout and research involved in putting together a high end sales letter, step-by-step from headlines, intro, product, features/benefits, how to handle objections, guarantee, price justification, asking for the sale and the close, with P.S's very clear and easy to follow.

When I coach a new copywriter I recommend they sign up at Clayton's blog and read as many of the old issues for free first. I have an excellent income and business using everything I was able to teach myself from both courses, but if I only could buy one it would be Clayton's. I have Clayton's Summit DVDs too and they are very thought inspiring. Clayton's blog is the "The Total Package" or search Clayton Makepeace.

Hope that helps. You can buy used copies of both on ebay.com just do a search for "copywriting"

Good luck,

Jennie