To Copywriters -- If I Had to Do it All Over Again -- Lies Exposed

OnlineMasterMind · 03-23-2010, 12:07 PM

The more I read and think about your post... I'm confident this is EXACTLY like something Gary Halbert would have wrote.

So many here are trying to give their rebuttals, but you can tell it's coming through gritted teeth and they're genuinely a little pissed.

MAJ rocked the boat.

People are resistant to change.

Of course, many people are satisfied trading time for money, working far harder than they have to, for far less than they are capable of.

That's the nature of the game... and of life.

AngieRammer · 03-23-2010, 02:19 PM

There are amazing, wonderful products out in the world.

I see my copy as being a messenger in getting the good news out
about these products.

I love copywriting, and I love my copywriting clients.

The Copy Nazi · 03-23-2010, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

The more I read and think about your post... I'm confident this is EXACTLY like something Gary Halbert would have wrote.

So many here are trying to give their rebuttals, but you can tell it's coming through gritted teeth and they're genuinely a little pissed.

MAJ rocked the boat.

People are resistant to change.

Of course, many people are satisfied trading time for money, working far harder than they have to, for far less than they are capable of.

That's the nature of the game... and of life.

You're missing the point. You could apply this to any freelance occupation. If you want to stay self-employed you have to lift your game. That's all.

Rezbi · 03-23-2010, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

Keep in mind some of those ways are illegal in certain jurisdictions.

Lol!

Only some?

Rezbi · 03-23-2010, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

The more I read and think about your post... I'm confident this is EXACTLY like something Gary Halbert would have wrote.

So many here are trying to give their rebuttals, but you can tell it's coming through gritted teeth and they're genuinely a little pissed.

MAJ rocked the boat.

People are resistant to change.

Of course, many people are satisfied trading time for money, working far harder than they have to, for far less than they are capable of.

That's the nature of the game... and of life.

Well I'm not. No sir, sirree, Bob.

Me, I'm always light.

Light headed.

Nothing to be pissed off about. It's up to him if that's how he feels.

It's a free world, right?

Unless you happen to look like a terrorist (in their books :-) )

Rezbi · 03-23-2010, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metronicity

More whining. Crikey - it's like this you guys - "THE WORLD DOES NOT OWE YOU A LIVING". If you want to PM me I'll share some of my life with you - you might be shocked. I'm 59 and right now I'm probably working at my peak. "The Secret of Success is Failure". That's what teaches you. You fail - you pick yourself up and have another go. Yes sometimes you have to do it again and again. But "That which does not destroy me - makes me stronger". (You know who wrote that?) Or if you want another one (From a man who drank 2 bottles of brandy a day) - "We'll fight them in the air, we'll fight them in the water, we'll fight them on the beaches, we'll fight them from the cliffs, we'll never, never surrender".

Whining about clients, the gigs, the lousy money, the time you spend online yada yada yada is just self-defeating. Turn it around. And...excuse me girls...grow some b*lls.

You're 59!?

But you look so young in that photo.

But then, I suppose... yea, I see it... the 60s clothes... the hat... yea, it's an old photo, right?

The Copy Nazi · 03-24-2010, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezbi

You're 59!?

But you look so young in that photo.

But then, I suppose... yea, I see it... the 60s clothes... the hat... yea, it's an old photo, right?

I have four words for you - Don Draper MAD MEN

I started my career at 16 as an "Advertising Cadet" (read: "mailroom boy") in 1966 at the Sydney branch of what was then the world's biggest advertising agency - J. Walter Thompson.

Rezbi · 03-24-2010, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metronicity

I have four words for you - Don Draper MAD MEN

I started my career at 16 as an "Advertising Cadet" (read: "mailroom boy") in 1966 at the Sydney branch of what was then the world's biggest advertising agency - J. Walter Thompson.

Gosh... yes, you're right... I see the resemblance. You do look a little like him.

AlanCarr · 03-24-2010, 09:02 AM

I'm afraid I haven't had time to read all the comments but thought I'd point something out - many copywriters, myself included, already have income from our own products. We "farm out" our skills as a way of helping others.

Starting a career as a copywriter without any success under your own belt would be an awful idea, true, but how many people do that?

AC

kctang · 03-24-2010, 12:23 PM

MAJ, you sound frustrated, lol, and I think I'm putting it lightly.

Definitely *sucks* to wake up and realize the road your chasing and the vision you're projecting is a falsety, created by images of what you thought was possible... and what the 'experts' have been selling.

(Sucks even more if you bought some of the products from those 'experts' as a resullt of that pitch, lol.)

Nobody likes to work hard for no result, and it sounds like you're not getting the result you wanted, which is the American Dream while doing copywriting as a means to get it.

I would like to suggest you be careful with some of your mindsets, though... they might also be holding back your success, as much as other factors...

I don't believe you're just whining... evidently you work hard at what you do...

I do believe that one's mental approach to *how* we see problems can greatly define *what* solutions we find... and maybe your mental approach could use some refining....

You even seem to be aware of some of your own mental roadblocks yourself.

Some of the differences I gathered between the guys who replied who love what they do (aren't controlled by their clients; dont share the same amount of frustration)...

and the rest of the people in this line of work...

1) They genuinely love what they do.

Tough to think about enjoyment when you need to pay bills, but it should be part of the equation. And not in any frou-frou way.

I'd think you do like copywriting, though, you seem to be proud of your good work. Just don't forget that when it gets stressful.

2) They draw their own guidelines of what they do and don't allow.

Ever read some of the dating stuff, where it talks about how there are men who write their own the rules, and the women love them for it?

This is along similar lines, not outlandishly of course, as you need to keep professional, but I think any self-respecting business person you meet won't 'run away' when you ask for specific guidelines to how you do your work...

Rather, if you tell them how you want things, and you're polite about it, they respect you more for it.

Professional business people like working with people who aren't afraid to have their own opinion on things, as long as they're being fair.

And these are the business people that respect themselves enough to also *pay* their bills...

---

Now, if you don't set guidelines, then you'll get the people who try to bully you into doing more work for less, doing work for free, etc.

And if they can bully you around for your expertise and time, then they know they can also bully you when their invoice becomes due and not pay it.

(This is also like women and dating, how respectful women will run away from guys who show desperation and 'need'... and disrespectful women will take advantage of these guys

...)

The customer's ~not~ always right. Only the ones that pay you and respect you, and even sometimes they're not...

Don't ~need~ the customer... if you're as good copywriter as you say you are, the customer ~needs~ you. You have the power to multiply their sales. Of course they need you. As long as you're clear on that, and not being an ass, your good customers wont run away.

---

So to recap,

1) Find reasons to enjoy what you do beyond just the payday

2) Be respectful and fair. Recognize what you want. Then set your own terms.

---

I s'pose there's more I could point out... And this is all just my 2 cents, of course...

But I believe if you don't have the above 2 handled right, then you'll experience similar problems no matter which line of work you choose.

Best regards,

KC

TheGraduate · 03-27-2010, 11:22 PM

it is nobody's fault that some people spend years of their time to make themselves into chess grandmasters knowing very well what's coming for their heads. The fact that you make yourself into a chess grandmaster does not exactly make you into a Robert James Fischer who earned millions of dollars for playing a couple of games in a world championship, most chess grandmasters all over the world are starving.

Another thing to consider is that let's be honest we have 20 years old guys shooting hundreds of 20 million dollars fighter jets from aircraft carriers after just a three week training period, and in charge of the lives of hundreds of pilots, not everybody takes it to well to be told that they can not write their own copy okay.... (no offense intended, it is just the plain true)

note: do not take my word for it: /watch?v=F2jy4BhRhkE&feature=related

TraceyDooley · 04-07-2010, 03:21 AM

Hi Maj

Just a quick post to say thank you for your post, "To Copywriters -- If I Had to Do it All Over Again -- Lies Exposed", and for your honesty.

It did hit a few raw nerves, and I'm probably guilty about falling for some of the BS you mention. I am also realising that I'm not that great at actually running a business -- not in the sense of making real money. I'm just not ruthless enough, I guess.

Still, I enjoy working with words and my illness means that I can't work outside my home, so will "struggle" onwards and hopefully upwards!

BTW, what are you intending to do?

Best

Tracey

prettyboy · 04-07-2010, 08:13 AM

There's no secret that many copywriters are suffering these days. For the most part, the $10,000, $5,000, or even the $2,500 gigs are a thing of the past. Under $1,000 is pretty much the consistent rate for (not all), but the majority of copywriters. The recession changed a lot of things, despite the fact that the market changed as well. I wouldn't say that writing sales letters is a dead-end, but it's changing and you'll probably have to write more volume if this is all you have going to bring in money.

It's just a wakeup call...it's sort of like how beepers were the thing, but when cell phones came in, everyone in the beeper business got hurt without warning.

Ross Bowring · 04-07-2010, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prettyboy

There's no secret that many copywriters are suffering these days. For the most part, the $10,000, $5,000, or even the $2,500 gigs are a thing of the past. Under $1,000 is pretty much the consistent rate for (not all), but the majority of copywriters. The recession changed a lot of things, despite the fact that the market changed as well. I wouldn't say that writing sales letters is a dead-end, but it's changing and you'll probably have to write more volume if this is all you have going to bring in money.

It's just a wakeup call...it's sort of like how beepers were the thing, but when cell phones came in, everyone in the beeper business got hurt without warning.

That's not my experience. Nor the experience of many guys I know who are working consistently at way higher price tags than 1K.

--- Ross

Daniel Scott · 04-07-2010, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prettyboy

There's no secret that many copywriters are suffering these days. For the most part, the $10,000, $5,000, or even the $2,500 gigs are a thing of the past. Under $1,000 is pretty much the consistent rate for (not all), but the majority of copywriters. The recession changed a lot of things, despite the fact that the market changed as well. I wouldn't say that writing sales letters is a dead-end, but it's changing and you'll probably have to write more volume if this is all you have going to bring in money.

It's just a wakeup call...it's sort of like how beepers were the thing, but when cell phones came in, everyone in the beeper business got hurt without warning.

Most guys I know actually worked just as much during/after the recession because it was a "wake up call" for just how important copy is.

I can't speak for everyone... but I know quite a few businesses that have actually flourished in the last 12 months, myself included.

-Dan

kpmedia · 04-08-2010, 05:30 AM

Some so-called "copywriters" need to quit because their writing is simply awful, and couldn't sell bullets to an NRA member.

The pay offered for writing has fallen, because of untrained quacks entering the marketplace with a business plan of simply undercutting the price point of the next guy. What has happened is many good writers went into other fields, while the quality of writers left in the market has significantly diminished. It's affected news, marketing, and several other areas.

I read a pretty good editorial on this last year -- the Columbia Journalism Review, I believe.

Photography and web design is the same way. People think they can buy a camera or computer, and suddenly they're qualified to offer professional media services? Okay, sure -- I'll just trot down to the drug store and buy some cough syrup and Advil. I can be a doctor now, right?

I've got a nice power drill and some extra toothbrushes. Dentistry sounds like a fun field.

03-23-2010, 12:07 PM	#51
OnlineMasterMind Advanced Warrior War Room Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 530 Thanks: 62 Thanked 52 Times in 30 Posts	Re: To Copywriters -- If I Had to Do it All Over Again -- Lies Exposed The more I read and think about your post... I'm confident this is EXACTLY like something Gary Halbert would have wrote. So many here are trying to give their rebuttals, but you can tell it's coming through gritted teeth and they're genuinely a little pissed. MAJ rocked the boat. People are resistant to change. Of course, many people are satisfied trading time for money, working far harder than they have to, for far less than they are capable of. That's the nature of the game... and of life.

03-23-2010, 02:19 PM	#52
AngieRammer Word Demon War Room Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 55 Thanks: 4 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Re: To Copywriters -- If I Had to Do it All Over Again -- Lies Exposed There are amazing, wonderful products out in the world. I see my copy as being a messenger in getting the good news out about these products. I love copywriting, and I love my copywriting clients.
	A MOST AMAZING FREE CLASS WAS HELD -- You can -- for a very limited time see the replay.. (BUT HURRY!) check out the truly jaw dropping copywriting claim ... When's the last time you've heard a $1000 more-than-money-back guarantee?

03-24-2010, 09:02 AM	#59
AlanCarr Ace Copywriter War Room Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tropical Island... Posts: 382 Thanks: 36 Thanked 49 Times in 38 Posts Contact Info	Re: To Copywriters -- If I Had to Do it All Over Again -- Lies Exposed I'm afraid I haven't had time to read all the comments but thought I'd point something out - many copywriters, myself included, already have income from our own products. We "farm out" our skills as a way of helping others. Starting a career as a copywriter without any success under your own belt would be an awful idea, true, but how many people do that? AC
	This man is living his dream. Are you...? www.copywriter-ac.com

03-24-2010, 12:23 PM	#60
kctang Learner Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 49 Thanks: 37 Thanked 10 Times in 7 Posts	Re: To Copywriters -- If I Had to Do it All Over Again -- Lies Exposed MAJ, you sound frustrated, lol, and I think I'm putting it lightly. Definitely sucks to wake up and realize the road your chasing and the vision you're projecting is a falsety, created by images of what you thought was possible... and what the 'experts' have been selling. (Sucks even more if you bought some of the products from those 'experts' as a resullt of that pitch, lol.) Nobody likes to work hard for no result, and it sounds like you're not getting the result you wanted, which is the American Dream while doing copywriting as a means to get it. I would like to suggest you be careful with some of your mindsets, though... they might *also* be holding back your success, as much as other factors... I don't believe you're just whining... evidently you work hard at what you do... I do believe that one's mental approach to how we see problems can greatly define what solutions we find... and maybe your mental approach could use some refining.... You even seem to be aware of some of your own mental roadblocks yourself. Some of the differences I gathered between the guys who replied who love what they do (aren't controlled by their clients; dont share the same amount of frustration)... and the rest of the people in this line of work... 1) They genuinely love what they do. Tough to think about enjoyment when you need to pay bills, but it should be part of the equation. And not in any frou-frou way. I'd think you do like copywriting, though, you seem to be proud of your good work. Just don't forget that when it gets stressful. 2) They draw their own guidelines of what they do and don't allow. Ever read some of the dating stuff, where it talks about how there are men who write their own the rules, and the women love them for it? This is along similar lines, not outlandishly of course, as you need to keep professional, but I think any self-respecting business person you meet won't 'run away' when you ask for specific guidelines to how you do your work... Rather, if you tell them how you want things, and you're polite about it, they respect you more for it. Professional business people like working with people who aren't afraid to have their own opinion on things, as long as they're being fair. And these are the business people that respect themselves enough to also pay their bills... --- Now, if you don't set guidelines, then you'll get the people who try to bully you into doing more work for less, doing work for free, etc. And if they can bully you around for your expertise and time, then they know they can also bully you when their invoice becomes due and not pay it. (This is also like women and dating, how respectful women will run away from guys who show desperation and 'need'... and disrespectful women will take advantage of these guys ...) The customer's ~not~ always right. Only the ones that pay you and respect you, and even sometimes they're not... Don't ~need~ the customer... if you're as good copywriter as you say you are, the customer ~needs~ you. You have the power to multiply their sales. Of course they need you. As long as you're clear on that, and not being an ass, your good customers wont run away. --- So to recap, 1) Find reasons to enjoy what you do beyond just the payday 2) Be respectful and fair. Recognize what you want. Then set your own terms. --- I s'pose there's more I could point out... And this is all just my 2 cents, of course... But I believe if you don't have the above 2 handled right, then you'll experience similar problems no matter which line of work you choose. Best regards, KC

03-27-2010, 11:22 PM	#61
TheGraduate Golden Warrior Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: United States Posts: 188 Thanks: 40 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	Re: To Copywriters -- If I Had to Do it All Over Again -- Lies Exposed it is nobody's fault that some people spend years of their time to make themselves into chess grandmasters knowing very well what's coming for their heads. The fact that you make yourself into a chess grandmaster does not exactly make you into a Robert James Fischer who earned millions of dollars for playing a couple of games in a world championship, most chess grandmasters all over the world are starving. Another thing to consider is that let's be honest we have 20 years old guys shooting hundreds of 20 million dollars fighter jets from aircraft carriers after just a three week training period, and in charge of the lives of hundreds of pilots, not everybody takes it to well to be told that they can not write their own copy okay.... (no offense intended, it is just the plain true) note: do not take my word for it: /watch?v=F2jy4BhRhkE&feature=related
	amazing product coming soon!

04-07-2010, 03:21 AM	#62
TraceyDooley www.mediaminister.co.uk Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: , , United Kingdom. Posts: 1 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Social Networking	Re: To Copywriters -- If I Had to Do it All Over Again -- Lies Exposed Hi Maj Just a quick post to say thank you for your post, "To Copywriters -- If I Had to Do it All Over Again -- Lies Exposed", and for your honesty. It did hit a few raw nerves, and I'm probably guilty about falling for some of the BS you mention. I am also realising that I'm not that great at actually running a business -- not in the sense of making real money. I'm just not ruthless enough, I guess. Still, I enjoy working with words and my illness means that I can't work outside my home, so will "struggle" onwards and hopefully upwards! BTW, what are you intending to do? Best Tracey
	TRACEY DOOLEY Business Development & Writing \| Editorial Expertise \| Marketing Solutions www.mediaminister.co.uk \| www.traceydooley.com >> "Reach a Wider Audience With Less Effort”: http://TwitPWR.com/5sb/

04-07-2010, 08:13 AM	#63
prettyboy Banned War Room Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 120 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 9 Posts	Re: To Copywriters -- If I Had to Do it All Over Again -- Lies Exposed There's no secret that many copywriters are suffering these days. For the most part, the $10,000, $5,000, or even the $2,500 gigs are a thing of the past. Under $1,000 is pretty much the consistent rate for (not all), but the majority of copywriters. The recession changed a lot of things, despite the fact that the market changed as well. I wouldn't say that writing sales letters is a dead-end, but it's changing and you'll probably have to write more volume if this is all you have going to bring in money. It's just a wakeup call...it's sort of like how beepers were the thing, but when cell phones came in, everyone in the beeper business got hurt without warning.

04-08-2010, 05:30 AM	#66
kpmedia Warrior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: To Copywriters -- If I Had to Do it All Over Again -- Lies Exposed Some so-called "copywriters" need to quit because their writing is simply awful, and couldn't sell bullets to an NRA member. The pay offered for writing has fallen, because of untrained quacks entering the marketplace with a business plan of simply undercutting the price point of the next guy. What has happened is many good writers went into other fields, while the quality of writers left in the market has significantly diminished. It's affected news, marketing, and several other areas. I read a pretty good editorial on this last year -- the Columbia Journalism Review, I believe. Photography and web design is the same way. People think they can buy a camera or computer, and suddenly they're qualified to offer professional media services? Okay, sure -- I'll just trot down to the drug store and buy some cough syrup and Advil. I can be a doctor now, right? I've got a nice power drill and some extra toothbrushes. Dentistry sounds like a fun field.
	Yep.