To Copywriters -- If I Had to Do it All Over Again -- Lies Exposed

[MAJ]

I'm going to blunt. Some people will hate this, some will like this and some will begin to wonder whether or not they should continue in this direction.

I would strongly urge you to get out of the copywriting services business as soon as you can. It's a dead-end. You're not going to consistently get paid 8k or 10k to write sales letters. Getting paid royalties from Joe Wannabe's ebook isn't going to pan out either unless he lives next door. Unless your Clayton's buddy, you're not going to get paid a million dollars to write ads. Anyone who tells you different A) Is desperate to believe B) Is trying to sell you a copywriting course. C) Wants to stay in their comfort zone.

You're hustling for a few grand here and there. With promises of more work than you can handle. Prospects constantly haggle to get you to lower your prices and bait you with "I'll pay you 10% of the profits - net." But buyers are liars.

You're dealing with clients who complain that your copy didn't work, but they're only getting 85 unique hits to their website on untargeted keywords. You're being told to explain your work. You're being told to do rewrites. You're on call at least 6 days a week. Call in the morning, calls during the day and calls at night. I've even gotten calls Sunday night and first thing Sunday morning. Prospects want you to give away your expertise for FREE and bait you into telling them all sorts of info with the promise of you'll get their business. Clients often want their work turned around, too fast. So you're staying up late at night building their marketing. Dude ... look ... about 10 years has passed away and you're still hustling for projects, just for a few grand ... just to do all the heavy lifting to build someone else's business!

You can't turn around and sell your self-employed, copywriting services. You have no business equity. If you stop working, then the money stops flowing in. You're wasting your time as a copywriter.

All of that work you've been doing, could have gone into building a real business with products or services that you can eventually sell in a few years for millions of dollars. Then you can retire young or build a new business. Do you realize, you're doing the most difficult part -- you're doing the most important, the most difficult work, for peanuts!!!

And I'm not talking getting involved with the Internet marketing crap that's pimped out by dozens of people who have huge email lists every week. Affiliate marketing is not a real business. It's temporary. It's a house of cards that'll fall down any minute. There's no equity in that. Building some email list that you can run affiliate promos to isn't much of a real business either. Unless you're part of the Internet marketing mafia, you're wasting your time. And unless you have credentials up the wazoo, you're wasting your time thinking that building a list and running promos to it will last. Those are just money games.

Get a solid product. Or hire some solid professionals and build a business around it. Use your skills to build YOUR dreams, not someone else's. Joe Perez's testimonials of "Mr. Jones Copywriter wrote a sales letter that helped me gross 20 million in sales last year" is meaningless when you look back on it. Instead of building's Joe's bank account up, you should have been busy putting millions in your bank account.

Please realize, the Internet marketing community is awash with exaggerations, embellishments and outright lies. More than half of what you hear, you can only take with a grain of salt. Don't get trapped into all the hype. Many people are frauds. You've probably met some of them yourself. All this NLP, job-killer, list builder, mind control, get rich quick stuff is pure Bravo Sierra. The people who are getting rich are the ones selling "hope" and "the lazy man's way to riches". This is reality. These gurus constantly meet together at some resort dreaming up crazy sounding ways to make a ton of money. "We'll tell them how they can make $15,000 weekly sending 3 text messages at 3'o clock every Wednesday."

These gurus are keeping you in tunnel vision, selling you on the idea of pouring time and energy into unstable, short-term money games.

Why would you commit your time, energy and talents to building hundreds of other people's dreams when you could do it one time -- for you!? You can find or develop a product just as well as they can! The most important part of the equation is your copywriting skills. So why are you so afraid to find a product (a real product) and build a rock-solid business with equity? Look, let's say it takes you 2 weeks to develop a compelling marketing game. Fine. Then let's say it takes you 2 weeks to locate or develop a solid front-end and back-end and upsell product. Then maybe a week to set up the sites and ppc and direct mail campaign. Just do it already. Copywriting is spinning your wheels, it's a dead-end job.

Get off most of these guru email lists, and find a solid, reputable product or develop one and start selling it for yourself. Build equity in a real business. Then cash out. Or turn it into a franchise.

[Chris Ramsey]

Maj, while I don't agree with much of what you said... one thing I can agree wholeheartedly on is creating your own products.

I stopped taking clients for a couple of months to work on my own projects... and it turned out really well. I've now got a list that really enjoys hearing from me - and they're responsive to boot.

However, there are those of us who do the copywriting because we love it.

While I don't NEED to take on new clients, I just opened my doors to take on a special few who don't have $6k to invest, but want to reap the benefits of hiring a copywriter who puts out results. Of course, I'm being EXTREMELY selective about who I take on as the up-front fee is much lower than I normally charge. But then again, I'm doing this because I enjoy it, not because it pays well.

Plus I'm getting a nice chunk of the overall pie - which doesn't hurt.

[MikeHumphreys]

Maj,

You raise some great points.

No question, trading hours for dollars is a short-term answer for any occupation.

Yes, more copywriters need to create their own info-products. Besides being a potential long-term income generator, it can provide additional income so you can be pickier about what client projects you accept.

I disagree with your points about being on-call 24/7. Yes, if you let clients treat you that way, there are some who will.

It's a question of self-confidence and self-values. You have to be confident on how YOU choose to run your business. You have to be confident that there are plenty of client projects out there (there are) to turn down bad projects or bad clients that come your way.

Set your business terms and hours. Set your availability and stick to it.

Dan Kennedy's No B.S. Time Management should be required reading for every freelancer, including copywriters.

Guard your time against time vampires (Dan Kennedy's phrase, not mine).

I don't work on Sundays.

I don't give out my office phone number except to highly-qualified prospects or paying clients. Even then, the phone calls are by appointment only and it's run like a meeting with set start and end time.

My clients are paying me to write their copy, not talk with everyone and anyone on the phone.

Re: Royalties. Yes, you can get them even if you're not a guru. The key is to find the right clients and right projects to even suggest the idea. I prefer to offer them to repeat clientele because we've already established a working relationship together. Both sides have a signed contract that spells everything out so everyone is protected.

Quite often, you do ongoing copy 'tune-ups' on what you wrote to help keep conversion rates as high as possible. So it's not always just pure passive income.

Best of luck,

Mike

[MAJ]

I believe it was Halbert and recently Doberman Dan that mentioned getting royalties from clients was a hit or miss proposition at best. Unless you're working with a reputable large publishing house.

As for calls coming in, I rarely answer the phone on weekends or evenings.

I have enjoyed copywriting too. But it's a dead-end job, no matter how you slice it or dice it. Even if you're doing it for people because you want to help people out, it's a waste of time. You're dealing with their crap or you will sooner or later from other clients. You're building their home for them in the hot sun while they sit in the lawn chair and reap the rewards. Charity work is overrated.

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

MAJ,

One dimensional, long-form sales letter writing is likely dying. Those who don't have any other "skill" will, I agree, probably be hurting for business.

I believe those of us who have a more diverse skill set will be in demand for quite a while--people who understand the psychology of buyers and who know how to use a variety of media to take advantage of those facts.

But I agree that it is still trading time for money.

Me? I do both. I have my own products and have automated traffic to a number of self-help products I own so I have money coming in no matter what. I have lists in three different niche markets so I can create single-sale cash flow.

But I still work with clients. Most of the time I enjoy it and, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, it's pretty cool to get a five figure check. It takes a lot of $27 ebooks to make $10K.

Most of us on this board spend too much time posturing. It hurts the ability to learn what we really could learn from one another about how to really grow our own businesses. Maybe that's because it is a "public" forum so no one wants to say "I didn't make squat this month..."

Reading between the lines of the posters here and looking at the ads they are running I suspect most of the copywriters who post here are struggling and could use some encouragement as well as maybe some business advice.

Maybe not--I'm not pointing fingers--I'm just wondering if we wouldn't all benefit from some honesty and open discussion of our struggles as well as our triumphs.

[BrianMcLeod]

+1 for a provocative post, MAJ.

There's plenty there that's hard to argue with.

And that which may not be true for all of us,
doesn't diminish that which is.

Best,

Brian

[Mr. Enthusiastic]

Provocative message, Maj.

You have several different ideas going on at once. I'm going to try to unravel the knot.

I agree that a personal service business is limited. It can only bring in money while there's a person to provide the service. Some people can eventually make enough money as an individual to plan for retirement. Or even just take a week's vacation. A lot of people can't get there.

Unless you can sell your personal service for a lot of money, you'll eventually need a product that can be sold without requiring more of your time. Or you'll need a service business that can run fine without you. Either way, you're getting into a much deeper aspect of entrepreneurship beyond just freelancing.

Otherwise, you'll need good financial discipline to live below your income and prudently invest for retirement.

None of that is unique to copywriting. It's true every day for the vast majority of people with any type of job or small business.

---

Next, you point out that a poorly run personal service business can be worse than a bad job. But that's also not unique to copywriting.

In any business, you can decide whether you have business hours, or an on-call 24/7 service. You can decide if there's a limit on free initial consultations. You can decide if there's a point at which free "quick advice" requests have to be shut off, unless the client pays for a new project. You can decide if there's a deposit. You can decide if work stops on past-due accounts.

You can decide if there's a limited number of discount slots available each month for charity cases. You can decide if you want to tell dreamers to come back after they complete their financing. You can decide if any joint ventures include an audit clause. You can decide if you're going to charge enough to make the headaches worthwhile.

If you fail to make choices like this in any business, you're bad at business. And that also has nothing to do with copywriting.

It's possible to be a brilliant copywriter, and also lousy at running a consulting service business.

---

If you can't charge enough to make a decent living without killing yourself, either your technical chops aren't good enough to make a good offer; your business skills aren't good enough; you haven't found a good enough market; or you're chasing after unicorns. The mere fact that business is lousy doesn't indicate which of these is the reason.

On the same block, one cafe can shut down "because of the recession," while the other hires additional waiters and cooks and raises prices, because there's always a line around the block.

---

I agree with the importance of a product or service system that can make residual income. After all, Ray Kroc didn't get very wealthy from more personal skill with a spatula. After a while, Bill Gates didn't personally write more code for Microsoft either. They built systems that involved the work of others.

That's why most of my time these days goes to some very demanding work on a unique software system that I will own, and license through consulting distributors. (The WF is my refreshing break between function calls.)

I started to study the craft and mindset of copywriting and marketing so I'll be ready to sell my own offer, once it's ready. Guess what, it turns out that I really love this stuff. And I've had enough positive response here to think I might really have a knack for it. Now I'm looking to get into the offline game, offering marketing consulting and copywriting services.

Yes, that's for immediate income during the long-term development process. And it's also for the joy of it.

Because it really is joyous, for me, to be honored by another's trust in telling me about their hopes and dreams. It's a joyous honor to help them have one more step up in their own stairway of success. I'm not responsible for their stairway, but I can sure make that one step is the finest I can build for them within their budget.

Will they stroll, sashay, dance or crawl up that step? That's their responsibility, not mine.

---

Ain't nobody but the police and fire department with the right to call me at 3 am on Sunday. Even they only have the right to call if they have to tell me to stay inside or get the hell out! It might be hubris, but I have enough faith in the value of my work to imagine I'll be able to sell it during reasonable business hours. Schedule an evening call for someone in another time zone? No problem. Get paged as though I'm back in that crappy tech support call center job where I worked shortly after college? No way!

With all due respect, the kind of lousy consulting gigs you described shouldn't keep me from seeking good consulting gigs. Ones that work well for both me and my clients.

---

Turning to the gurus and WF conventional wisdom: yes, there's clearly some piles of steaming caca. But the best advice comes from genuine experience, and at least some level of insight or a fresh twist on a good point. Sometimes it just takes saying the same old news with an appealing new accent. I don't see what will ever go out of style about giving away helpful, practical tips combined with entertaining storytelling and occasional sales pitches. In the future, we might reach our lists by holo-crystal rather than email, but the underlying idea is as old as human nature.

As for the premise that the "guru cabal" members entertain each other with new ways to scam the naive: So what if they do? That has nothing to do with me. Are there some scammers who use a sleazy version of NLP? Of course. There are also some scammers who use a sleazy version of bad accounting. That doesn't mean that it's not worth my while to learn about psychology and finance as they relate to my own, ethical business.

---

My concern is that negative messages like yours might keep some people from pursuing a field that might well be satisfying, lucrative and happy for them.

Done badly, a copywriting business can be dead-end misery. But so can anything done badly.

Done well, it can be a great way to make a living - so I hear from people who seem honest enough to this skeptic.

Chris

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by Chris Ramsey

I don't NEED to take on new clients

Good for you. Me? I always need new clients. I am always taking on clients who can pay me. If you find people who can pay me but you don't want to work with, feel free to send them my way. My food stamps will run out in a week or so.

[MAJ]

You're set Chris. So you're in position to make some money taking on a couple of clients.

Let's face it ... there is a HUGE segment of the IM community and biz opp community that promotes this idea of becoming a copywriter, that if you do, you'll retire rich young. You'll sit by the swimming pool with your laptop typing out sales letters while bikini clad women massage you down with oil. Oh, and part of the fantasy is that the FedEx babe arrives with a check for 10 GRAND. It's pure BS.

Yeah, if you spend a few months or a couple of weeks here and there helping out someone, that's no big deal.

But I'm talking about people who've bought into this romantic notion of writing copy and doing it as a long-term full-time job. Doing this full-time on a long term basis is just nuts and a terrible way to squander your time and efforts.

[MAJ]

I think a lot of people are flat out afraid to take it to the next level. I'm in that camp too. That's why I've spent almost 10 years hustling clients for projects. Sure, occassionally you'll get a fat check but for the most part, it's just working for a few hundred dollars or a few grand here and there. And most people online are flat out lying about how well they're doing. Or they're not doing as well you might think. I spent 10 years thinking I'd land that mystical client who was going to pay me royalties and I'd pull in 100k or more every month. I've spent nearly 10 years with tunnel vision to naive to realize these make big $$$ in copywriting or marketing consulting are embellishing or flat out lying.

--I met one guy who everybody would recognize and he wasn't even breaking 100k a year -never had. And his copy is by far some of the best ever written!

--I've seen supposed gurus claim Joe Newbie Copywriter can make 30 GRAND from his first assignment, but and it turns out to be total B.S.

--I've seen guys who supposedly get paid 10k to write a sales letter yet, they're begging their email lists for X amount of $500 evaluation projects. Or they're claiming they want to "give back". Yeah right. They're not able to close any more 1,000 grand jobs.

My point, don't waste more than a year or two at selling copywriting services full-time. Sure, taking on an occassional part time job is fine but don't fall for the hype. Build your own rock-solid, 100% legit, long-term business that you can franchise or sell out.

[MAJ]

Look, people need to know the truth. I constantly get starry-eyed newbie copywriters with dollar signs in their eyes asking me for my overflow work or coaching or advice. People have a right to know that all that work they do for clients could be put towards building a million dollar business for themselves. They have a right to know that 90% of the Internet marketing guru email lists are a waste of their time. Every week a gimmicky new product is flashed in front of them and people waste their time chasing fantasies. Why wouldn't you want people to know this?

[The Copy Nazi]

Wow. That's the mother-of-all-whines isn't it. But "I feel your pain" brother. All writers go through this. Yeah the clients can be assholes and the money can be patchy and - well you've said it all. BUT if you love to write copy. And you love it when it works. Well what would you rather do - be a wage-slave? Work in an agency? When I feel like this I go for a surf...a long bike ride...climb a mountain or drink a million beers. And then I'm back at the keyboard. Taking no prisoners.

If you're gonna give up - Hasta la Vista Dude. But if you wanna have a chat or pitch me a JV - see that Skype button? Hit it. You'll be so glad you did and your teeth will stay whiter for years to come.

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Someone from the board emailed me to say "Kevin, people will think you're serious about your food stamps running out in a week."

Just so there's no confusion, I DON'T have food stamps running out in a week. I was joking.

My food stamps should last me through the end of the month.

[Chris Ramsey]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

Someone from the board emailed me to say "Kevin, people will think you're serious about your food stamps running out in a week."

Just so there's no confusion, I DON'T have food stamps running out in a week. I was joking.

My food stamps should last me through the end of the month.

LOL. You're the man Kevin.

[LindseyRainwater]

Well, I find it interesting that you admitted that you are afraid to take it to the next level. I own a freelance writing business, and I've got my eyes on learning copywriting. Do I think I'm going to make bank every single day and have hot guys waving palm branches at me in my own boudoir? No.

But I know very successful freelancers that make a couple thousand extra a month with copywriting. I'm hoping maybe it will get the creditors off my back. I'd be thrilled with that.

A few months ago I was terrified to move outside writing 500 word articles for $5. Then my husband lost his job. Something snapped in my mind and I realized the rest of the writers out there aren't "all that." I'm still struggling financially, but I'm now writing SHORT web content for $30 a page. I took it to the next level. I boosted my confidence. Now I'm looking for the next step to the next level.

Copywriting has its place in this industry. Some excel at it and make good money, some just do it on the side, and some just don't have the flair for it. I've met writers like that too, who just hate copywriting. But instead of telling me to turn away, they point out that I can't know whether I'm good at it or not until I try it for awhile.

The smartest freelancers I know, no matter how they feel about copywriting or other forms of writing, have told me to try my hand at it. If I'm good, run with it and make a good living. If I'm not, don't beat my head against the wall and find something else to do.

I just don't want to see up and coming writers walk away from a good opportunity because someone tells then that its no place for newbies. They shouldn't be swayed because somebody else didn't get the break they hoped would fall into their laps.

[Ken_Caudill]

I hear ya. Thankfully, there are a lot of ways to make money with your pen besides writing sales letters.

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

I hear ya. Thankfully, there are a lot of ways to make money with your pen besides writing sales letters.

Keep in mind some of those ways are illegal in certain jurisdictions.

[MAJ]

Technically, I have about 8 projects lined up right now and more coming in. So I have more than enough work. And my phone has been ringing all day today. That's not posturing, that's reality. I've landed a few jobs for 10k and 12k with some royalties in the past. And I had a gig that paid 100k over one year. I've done well in my career. And I've loved copywriting.

But so what? I have NO EQUITY in anything.

My point is, so many people are sold a bill of goods by copywriting coaches, courses and AWAI that becoming a copywriter is like hitting the jackpot. They make bogus claims like you'll be flooded with gigs for 8 GRAND + % of sales. That's B.S.

There's a lot of exaggerations going on in the IM and copywriting world and people need to know about it.

All of the ass-kicking work you're doing week in and week out could better be devoted to YOUR BUSINESS. I'm surprised that some people don't like that message getting out.

As a full-time copywriter ... you're NOT building EQUITY in anything! So what you develop good writing skills. Big deal. Sure this is Ecclesiastical.

But people need to ask the question, "Which side of the equation does it make sense to be on?"

===================================
Copywriter gets paid 3 grand to help client make $1,000,000.
===================================

Who's better off?

===================================
Copywriter works 10 years and does NOT make $1,000,000.
Client buys copy and makes $1,000,000 within 1-3 years.
===================================

Who's better off?

===================================
Copywriter works 10 years and must keep on working to pay bills.
Client bought copy and can take vacations and still make money 24/7
===================================

Who's better off?

===================================
Copywriter works 10 years and has no EQUITY -- can't sell out.
Client bought copy, has EQUITY, can cash in MORE $ Millions or Franchise Out.
===================================

Looking back on it, I would have spent maybe 3 years MAX as a copywriter and put my skills and energy into building a solid business with equity. Look at Rich Dad & Poor Dad and you'll see it teaches you need to move from self-employed (copywriter) to business owner.

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by LindseyRainwater

A few months ago I was terrified to move outside writing 500 word articles for $5. Then my husband lost his job. Something snapped in my mind and I realized the rest of the writers out there aren't "all that." I'm still struggling financially, but I'm now writing SHORT web content for $30 a page. I took it to the next level. I boosted my confidence. Now I'm looking for the next step to the next level.

<snip>

The smartest freelancers I know, no matter how they feel about copywriting or other forms of writing, have told me to try my hand at it. If I'm good, run with it and make a good living. If I'm not, don't beat my head against the wall and find something else to do.

I just don't want to see up and coming writers walk away from a good opportunity because someone tells then that its no place for newbies. They shouldn't be swayed because somebody else didn't get the break they hoped would fall into their laps.

Good for you Lindsey. I think in my own life any success I have has come from me being scared of doing something but doing it any way. The successes I DON'T YET HAVE are usually because of fears I've yet to confront.

[Ken_Caudill]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

Keep in mind some of those ways are illegal in certain jurisdictions.

Screw 'em. They'll never take me alive.

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by MAJ

As a full-time copywriter ... you're NOT building EQUITY in anything! So what you develop good writing skills. Big deal. Sure this is Ecclesiastical.

But people need to ask the question, "Which side of the equation does it make sense to be on?"

===================================
Copywriter gets paid 3 grand to help client make $1,000,000.
===================================

Who's better off?

===================================
Copywriter works 10 years and does NOT make $1,000,000.
Client buys copy and makes $1,000,000 within 1-3 years.
===================================

Who's better off?

===================================
Copywriter works 10 years and must keep on working to pay bills.
Client bought copy and can take vacations and still make money 24/7
===================================

Who's better off?

===================================
Copywriter works 10 years and has no EQUITY -- can't sell out.
Client bought copy, has EQUITY, can cash in MORE $ Millions or Franchise Out.
===================================

Looking back on it, I would have spent maybe 3 years MAX as a copywriter and put my skills and energy into building a solid business with equity. Look at Rich Dad & Poor Dad and you'll see it teaches you need to move from self-employed (copywriter) to business owner.

Well, you're running your business like any other outsourcing freelancer. If you have anything resembling a track record or strong portfolio, raise your rates or start asking for royalties as part of your payments.

Copywriting is like any other occupation: Your employer (in our case, the client) expects that your work will make them more money.

You're expecting to produce more results than you're paid for... preferably alot more than you're paid for.

The guy flipping burgers for minimum wage... is expected to produce 'x' number of fried burgers every hour that the restaurant sells for a lot more money. The CEO of a Fortune 500 company is expected to produce 'y' improvement in the company's bottom line. If either one fails to do their job, they get fired or replaced.

Copywriting is no different.

That's life.

If you don't like how your business has been running then change it.

Only you can make the changes that you need made.

Good luck,

Mike

[Loren Woirhaye]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

I had 4 separate clients who didn't pay me the money they owed to me - 160 hours of work for nowt. ($14k or thereabouts straight down the drain)

I'll bet there's a hidden story there.

Like "I'll do the job for nothing up front and you
pay me $4k when you make the money from your
offer."

There are a lot of prospects out there looking to
get work done for free on promises of payment
later...

[Mr. Enthusiastic]

I like the way this thread is going.

Chris R, any trouble with that "piece of pie" being divided honestly?

Mike, I think Dan Kennedy described the most aggressive fax-management system I've ever seen. It went something like this: once a week, his assistant (in a different state) faxes any essential papers to Dan. Then once a month, Dan throws away whatever papers came out of the fax machine. I might have missed a step in there, involving doodles or paper airplanes.

Maj, if I don't see those babes arriving by the truckload with checks and oil and styrofoam floating drink holders, I'm gonna want my money back for this topic. Every penny I paid for it! (Looks like I'm outta thanks for today, ask me tomorrow and I'll click-to-appreciate ya then.)

Kevin, the breezy feeling is a hundred copywriters sighing with relief right now. Or maybe it's envy: how come that guy is set through the end of the month?

Lindsey, I like your pragmatic approach. Run it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes. If not, find a better flagpole.

Mark, can you challenge the chargebacks? I was, of course, thinking of using Paypal to get paid. The idea that these payments could be arbitrarily reversed without recourse is very scary. Maybe I should stick to ordinary checks, sent by snail mail.

[MAJ]

Yeah I've had a ton of lame prospect offers too.

I'll get an email from a breathless prospect who claims he's got the greatest product in the world but all his money has been spent, invested in developing his product so he's looking for the BEST copywriter. And he's willing to pay 5 to 10% of sales and that could mean millions of dollars to me.

Then he'll try to sink the hook in with "If you're really as good as you say, then you'll do this because you know your copy converts. So are you in or not?"

In 2008 I had a guy who was developing a reality TV show claim I'd make BIG MONEY by writing his sales letter for free upfront in exchange for 5% of sales worldwide from their show. I created a winning sales letter. Then they asked for rewrites. Then after 6 months had passed, he said they were getting sales appointments to speak to CEO's (so my letter worked.) But ... their sales reps couldn't close the sale. So they had to re-calibrate their offer to try to close deals. I keep calling and the guy eventually gives up or so he says. He didn't like me calling or asking about his sales reps because it "screwed with his law of attraction mindset!!!!"

[Andrew Gould]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

In a way they have paid me these folks, maybe not with money directly but with the lessons they taught me by driving me to think differently.

I might not have looked at in the most positive light at that time - but now looking back, they were in fact doing me a favour... but don't tell them I said that lol.

"There is no failure, only feedback… and a renewed opportunity for success." - Paul Watzlawick.

Great quote that I think applies perfectly here. As an athlete it helped change the way I looked at my 'failures' when I first heard it 5+ years ago. And until I Googled it to credit it... I had no idea of the second part to it!

[David Babineau]

Originally Posted by MAJ

He didn't like me calling or asking about his sales reps because it "screwed with his law of attraction mindset!!!!"

Priceless...

[The Copy Nazi]

HONDA have just released this fillum - "Failure - the Secret to Success"

Honda - The Power of Dreams - Dream The Impossible - Documentary Series

[The Copy Nazi]

And this one is interesting. This is what Frank Kern does to blow off steam when things aren't going to plan - shenanigans in a Georgia Walmart -

YouTube - Raw Video: Man Smashes TVs at Wal-Mart

Results Not Typical

[Ronak Shah]

Originally Posted by Chris Ramsey

Maj, while I don't agree with much of what you said... one thing I can agree wholeheartedly on is creating your own products.

I stopped taking clients for a couple of months to work on my own projects... and it turned out really well. I've now got a list that really enjoys hearing from me - and they're responsive to boot.

However, there are those of us who do the copywriting because we love it.

While I don't NEED to take on new clients, I just opened my doors to take on a special few who don't have $6k to invest, but want to reap the benefits of hiring a copywriter who puts out results. Of course, I'm being EXTREMELY selective about who I take on as the up-front fee is much lower than I normally charge. But then again, I'm doing this because I enjoy it, not because it pays well.

Plus I'm getting a nice chunk of the overall pie - which doesn't hurt.

Chris,

I think people like us can make more money with our own products than with copywriting.

You reserve your time for other people ( you're selling your time off )

If I had a choice, I would prefer to only gain mastery in copywriting and create a product that I can sell 10000 copies of. My time cannot be replaced. If I have to charge for a sales letter, I would charge $5000 - $6000 instead of the regular price of $1000 if I know what I'm doing as time once gone won't come back again.

It's been a long time now and I've realized I need a greater ROI for my time.

I can't spend time marketing a service that is going to fetch me a limited amount of money anyway. I'd rather put in the same time into something that's going to fetch me a higher ROI.

You LOVE copywriting..

That's something spectacular about copywriters here.

I'm a lazy guy unlike you.

I like to earn money on autopilot. Simply.

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by ronakshah

Chris,

I think people like us can make more money with our own products than with copywriting.

You reserve your time for other people ( you're selling your time off )

Not necessarily. If it was that easy, almost no one would be a copywriter for hire.

You have to have the skills to identify what a target market wants and the ability to deliver it.

You have to have the ability to market that product.

You have to willing to offer the product customer service and technical support.

Some people just don't want everything that comes with marketing their own products. They just want to do what they love: write copy.

Some people just want to make 'x' amount each month and spend more time with their families or friends.

Me, I like every facet of copywriting and being an info-product marketer. I like the emotional charge I get with my successful product launches... or a copywriting client's.

If I had a choice, I would prefer to only gain mastery in copywriting and create a product that I can sell 10000 copies of.

LOL. Who wouldn't want that?

[BelindaMooney]

This has been a great post! I do a combination of various writing form copywriting to ghost writing IM blogs. I also am producing and building (or trying to) my own products and multiple streams of income. I am not making the money I would like doing copywriting/ghost writing but I am ready to take it up a notch.

I am to the point now where I am going to be going on referrals or direct requests. I ghost write to MLM/IM blogs write now and will be hearing from a 3rd client today. I am not charging nearly what I should be but I am trying to establish clientele who can make referrals.

One of the things I have learned is to try and offer multiple skills. For example to the 2 people I am currently blogging for I also spin their article and send them the spin syntax for article submission. It has been suggested by several clients that I offer 30 minute brainstorming consults. It seems I have a knack for offering brilliant suggestions for other people's blogs

But I also have my own websites that make money with Google, have a few books up on Amazon, am trying IPK and plus I write for regional parenting publications.

Many of these things such as the copywriting isn't paying the big bucks but as I love doing it and I do it well. But I appreciate the reality of Maj's post. You don't get rich overnight and I think much of the hype, even on forums like this one, which I LOVE, is misleading to newbies.

You have to be prepared to work hard and do what you love but not put all your eggs in one basket.

Belinda

[MAJ]

That's part of what I'm saying here. As a copywriter, you're probably spending much less time with the family! Sure, you can try to tell prospects that you're following a strict schedule and that they can't call you except by appointment, but in the real world, that doesn't entirely work unless you're Dan Kennedy. As a copywriter, if you don't jump on top of a lead, he'll go to your competitor. As a copywriter, if your client wants to do meetings at an inopportune time, or often, and you don't comply, he'll go to someone else. Here's the really big thing.

I don't know about you guys, but my work has come in spurts mostly. There's some continuous trickle of clients thoughout the year, but the majority of my work pours in at different times of the year and everyone wants their project NOW! So I often find myself, having to do 6 projects at once. This means working longer hours -- away from your family.

If you've set up an online business, you can make money 24/7 and not have to do meetings or a ton of work all at once and miss out on things like Summer vacations and Spring Break and other holidays.

[MAJ]

I'll be transparent here. One of the "mind" blocks that's held me back personally from promoting info products is that so many people are already doing it. And that PPC bid prices are through the roof. I did create one info product and it was excellent and I sold some, but my site went LIVE too late into the process as the product was starting to be given away free on high traffic sites. I held on to my shopping cart for several months getting tagged with charges, trying to re-calibrate or brainstorm a product to replace it. I then got caught up in affiliate marketing for a year and made some money but it was a full-time job managing 12 ppc affiliate campaigns.

[BelindaMooney]

I agree Paul, you definitely need to find your strong points! That is what I have been trying to focus on but Maj is right scattering yourself makes it a bit crazy at times!

And I am a homeschool mom so my hours are a bit more limited too. But I have discovered one of my strengths is rewriting. I can do it fast and well. Plus I enjoy article spinning and I can do those 2 things in half the time it takes to write an article. So I have been doing some of that which has greatly increased my income. And I know I am charging dirt cheap rates.

I need to rethink myself I think lol. If nothing MAJ you have made me think about what I want.

Belinda

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by MAJ

Sure, you can try to tell prospects that you're following a strict schedule and that they can't call you except by appointment, but in the real world, that doesn't entirely work unless you're Dan Kennedy.

Well, I'm not Dan Kennedy and that's what I've been doing as a full-time copywriter for 3+ years.

As a copywriter, if you don't jump on top of a lead, he'll go to your competitor. As a copywriter, if your client wants to do meetings at an inopportune time, or often, and you don't comply, he'll go to someone else. Here's the really big thing.

Only if it's a client who doesn't value your time or what you have to offer. Any other type of client realizes that you're not just sitting around waiting for their phone call or email to come in.

I don't know about you guys, but my work has come in spurts mostly. There's some continuous trickle of clients thoughout the year, but the majority of my work pours in at different times of the year and everyone wants their project NOW!

Every industry has it's peaks and valleys in terms of volume. In the massage industry, December is typically a gangbuster month (especially gift certificate sales)... January, most therapists practically starve for work.

So I often find myself, having to do 6 projects at once. This means working longer hours -- away from your family.

Charge more, plan your time and workflow better. Do something to make it up to your family afterwards.

If you've set up an online business, you can make money 24/7 and not have to do meetings or a ton of work all at once and miss out on things like Summer vacations and Spring Break and other holidays.

Most of the online marketers I know well... they work 7 days per week year-round. Do a few searches on the main forum for threads on how many hours do you work... and you'll be surprised how many Warriors do 60+ hours each week on their business.

[BelindaMooney]

That is one thing I let my clients know upfront - I don't write on alcohol or adult themes and I don't work weekends Saves hassles!

belinda

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by BelindaMooney

I don't write on alcohol

Well, that makes one of us...

LOL

But... only for WF, blog posts or tweets.


* This message has been brought to you by
Captain Morgan Rum Company, United Kingdom

[Raydal]

Originally Posted by MAJ

Get a solid product. Or hire some solid professionals and build a business around it. Use your skills to build YOUR dreams, not someone else's. Joe Perez's testimonials of "Mr. Jones Copywriter wrote a sales letter that helped me gross 20 million in sales last year" is meaningless when you look back on it. Instead of building's Joe's bank account up, you should have been busy putting millions in your bank account.

This is a popular misconception about copywriting. If my letter brought
in millions for another marketer it doesn't mean that I could do the same
with my own product.

Promoting yourself would be pretty much common sense and would make ALL
copywriters and other service oriented businesses seem stupid.

Why write scripts for Will Smith if you could act in the movie and
make millions instead?

Why manage Obama's campaign when you can run for president yourself?

I love to see my clients do well and don't begrudge their success, even
when I thought I could have done a better job marketing the product.

I've been asked several times, "Why teach copywriting and create
competition for yourself?" Well, I love teaching and my student's
success is not 'competition' but an addition to MY success.

-Ray Edwards

[BelindaMooney]

Not me lol! I feel blessed to make $10,000.00 a year No whining here... just commitment to hard work!

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

Well, that makes one of us...

LOL

But... only for WF, blog posts or tweets.


* This message has been brought to you by
Captain Morgan Rum Company, United Kingdom

Crack that run open and pass it over already.

Let's throw in some music from "Lonesome" George Thorogood while we're at. Maybe we can lift the mood here a bit...

YouTube - George Thorogood I Drink Alone

[Ronak Shah]

I'd rather sit with my girlfriend on the beach with a fat bank balance & enjoy the summer than work like a donkey all day to make money online.

My time is an investment & I'd rather get higher ROI for my time.

It's not just about what you love to do, it's about your self & your health.

Remember the saying, "Health is wealth". Health is happiness.

There is a world outside of the internet that's plainly fresh and refreshing.

Meeting new people and living at different places. Experiencing new cultures. This sounds REALLY exciting.

I'd ask Ray, why earn more money when you've enough that can last 3 years for your family?

[Sarah Harvey]

I definitely agree with what what MAJ said in the beginning, however, for some people it is not that easy selling their own products. As an example I will take from my partner's experience...

He was brilliant at selling someone else's products/services, but when it came to his own creative ideas, he never did anything. Had no motivation for it.

I believe real copywriting... the type where you study a degree in the field and work in some advertising agency, is generally where the real deal is. It is also true in the same instance when you see that all these 'hyped up' copy actually sells, because it performs in one way only. It sells a dream. Who doesn't want to get richer and more affluent in status? Every person wants more money in their lives and that is why the majority of people buy things based on good sales copy. But think for one second... almost everything in the world that is man made is based on advertising. It is really true when you think of it as a lot of things people buy, are based solely on ads they see and hear, especially when people mention it etc.

Traditional Copywriters make an absolute fortune, and unless I am mistaken, that is where a stable income lies. However if you want to own a business, then trying to sell copy might not get you all the things in life. Some people are successful only because of the circles they move in and that is more true in the Internet marketing community. But my true thoughts on the subject is somewhat jaded and different than most people. I make money in life, enjoy making money and still work for a living as shocking as it seems and am happy with my lot in life. The only thing I need to improve on my life, is my personal relationship.

Good luck!

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Crack that run open and pass it over already.

Let's throw in some music from "Lonesome" George Thorogood while we're at. Maybe we can lift the mood here a bit...

YouTube - George Thorogood I Drink Alone

george and the destroyers...AWESOME.

[The Copy Nazi]

More whining. Crikey - it's like this you guys - "THE WORLD DOES NOT OWE YOU A LIVING". If you want to PM me I'll share some of my life with you - you might be shocked. I'm 59 and right now I'm probably working at my peak. "The Secret of Success is Failure". That's what teaches you. You fail - you pick yourself up and have another go. Yes sometimes you have to do it again and again. But "That which does not destroy me - makes me stronger". (You know who wrote that?) Or if you want another one (From a man who drank 2 bottles of brandy a day) - "We'll fight them in the air, we'll fight them in the water, we'll fight them on the beaches, we'll fight them from the cliffs, we'll never, never surrender".

Whining about clients, the gigs, the lousy money, the time you spend online yada yada yada is just self-defeating. Turn it around. And...excuse me girls...grow some b*lls.

[SimonTownley]

Copywriting should not be viewed as some kind of get-rich-quick scheme. It's a trade, one in which you can make a good steady income, especially if you have decent clients.
Direct response copywriting does seem to a mine-field. But I've been a freelance copywriter for 15 years and haven't written one direct response sales letter. I hope I never have to. There's a lot more to copywriting than just direct response letters for scammy internet marketers selling snake oil and get-rich-quick schemes.

If you can find clients who run solid businesses but have a regular need for good copy, and build relationships, then it can work out all right. Clients can be a pain of course, but that's true for designers, and accountants, and lawyers, and anyone offering a professional service. In fact, it's true in any kind of business. You have clients and customers and they come first. But if you can get clients in big firms - who themselves work 9-5 - then they're not likely to call you on a Sunday evening.

[Ronak Shah]

It isn't copywriters but REAL marketers who make HUGE amounts of $$$$$.

Copywriters who have created their products have made money quickly.

Marketers hire copywriters. Copywriters are paid for their time.

I feel it's more important to be a marketer than just be a copywriter.

However, everyone has a personal choice so I guess many copywriters just find it appeasing to be doing what they love.

That's the TRUTH.

[Matt_L]

When boiled down, the main point of this thread is simple -- a career copywriter shares his angst about being the bridesmaid and never the bride.

Maj makes salient points about internet marketing, work for hire and living the good life -- or, perhaps more in line with his thoughts -- who gets to live the good life.

None of his points come across as whining. Rather, they come across as examples of someone who has recently embarked upon a personal "moment of clarity" about the world of freelancing in general and the world of freelance copywriting in particular.

There is nothing logically incorrect with Maj's points. His points are easily proven by the gists of several subsequent replies that point out how freelancing is different from working a "regular" job. (No matching 401k, no employer health, dental, etc ...) A freelancing writer's life is different from the life of a staff writer's. There are trade-offs.

I think we can reduce Maj's argument further --
Do you build a product or do you focus on services?

The conflict between product and services rears its head in a lot of industries. For example, take the industry that I am most familiar with -- software.

I've worked in shops where half the guys wanted to focus on services because it was "exciting" to work with new clients, new industries and new business models. The other half wanted to focus on building verticals because there was more money in it for them (in the form of stock options).

Think you've seen a conference room battle? You haven't seen a real (nerd) battle until you've got a room full of software developers arguing vehemently about services vs. product. Unintelligible white board scribbling, fighting for control over the marker, furious Blackberry text-ing about the idiots across from you ...

Based on my experiences in the software biz, here's what I know:

1) If you have an investor or some kind of funding that let's you meet payroll and the marketing budget AND you can afford the risk that your product might not do well in the market, you can afford to build a product from scratch.

2) If you don't have an angel or some type funding up your sleeve then services are a must. The trick is to keep the product as the top objective and services as the rungs on the ladder to get you to the top. (It's quite hard to maintain focus on the product when you're constantly expected to hit deadlines, release deliverables and deliver good customer service.)

From what I can tell so far, the fundamentals of the copywriting business aren't that different from any other business -- cash flow is king.

If you have the cash flow then you have the freedom to try out your product ideas. If not, you'll need to marry your product ideology to your services mentality and pray that they get along for a while.

[Daniel Scott]

I agree we should all be working on our own projects.

I certainly am (slowly, between clients...).

But I think copywriting is a great gig.

If you can get killer results... it's really not that hard to get $5k+/letter.

And even at five figures, there's plenty of work to go around.

And personally... I've made some brilliant contacts and worked with some super-smart marketers.

Heck... I'm doing a letter at the moment for a guy who's EIGHTEEN and he's making six figures a year.

I certainly don't meet those kinds of people in "real life".

Sure... I've worked my butt off for it.

And sure... there are parts of the biz that aren't a lot of fun (although in my experience they're rare).

But I love what I do.

I agree with the whole trading money for time thing... but I'm yet to meet a marketer who doesn't work a decent amount of time each week... whether they create their own products or not.

MAJ... based on the situation you're describing... you really need to learn a few things that are crucial to running any service-based business.

Clients can only bully you and knock your prices down if you let them.

You're only on call 24/7 if you allow yourself to be.

I'm not on call 24/7... and I don't do letters for hundreds of dollars.

But I (and many other copywriters I know that have similar rules) have plenty of work.

I'd suggest a re-think of your strategy.

-Dan

[Rezbi]

Copywriting is like any other business: The guys at the top are raking it in, but the majority are struggling.

Take acting, for example - you'd think actors are living in luxury and making a mint with every job.

But, the fact is only a few are earning in the millions. The majority would be lucky if they make a week's wages.

I used to work in the unemployment office and I saw my share of actors and actresses signing on for welfare in-between jobs.

The problem is, the in-between periods tend to be longer than the actual work they have.

We need to learn to look at thing from all angles - not just at the guys at the top.

True, there are those who write ads which make the prospect of a certain... something... very attractive. But the truth is, that's their job, just as it would be yours if you were that successful.

And I don't thik there's anyone who wouldn't take on those jobs if they were offered the same money.

There's a saying: look up, and you'll stay grounded; look down and you'll realise how lucky you are.

[OnlineMasterMind]

Originally Posted by MAJ

These gurus constantly meet together at some resort dreaming up crazy sounding ways to make a ton of money. "We'll tell them how they can make $15,000 weekly sending 3 text messages at 3'o clock every Wednesday."

hahahaha good post man