Dear Mr.Subtle...Love Malkie

[The Copy Nazi]

Hey Subtle, Rachel over at BigCheeseMarketing (she who sends her list videos of her naked in a bubble-bath) just sent this to me. Pertains mostly to website design but could be applied to copy as well. Love your feedback on this one. Thank you ballboys. And thank you Rachel.

Design Hell

[John_S]

The vast majority of designers would rather chew off a leg than test. While this may happen to copywriters, it doesn't happen as much.

Designers, by and large, have set themselves up for taking "design dictation." A hundred hints clients all the designer has is their subjective opinion.

The secretary who did her wedding invitations (in Word) has an opinion.

The nephew with a "free" copy of PhotoShop from college who did his clan site has an opinion.

And, to the client, they all seem reasonably valid. The vast majority of designers will not say this test proves that design "usable." They simply say it's usable. The vast majority of designers have never conducted a series of A/B split run tests to iterate a design to be user focussed or even relevant.

Many sites submitted had no concern for the user on the most basic levels. Rarely could you identify an idea or purpose behind the site, or name a possible user goal the site was intended to facilitate. There was no flow, no legibility, no usability. It wasn’t so much that the designers had contempt for their users as that they seemed never to have been taught to think about users at all.
-- Web Design Guru Jeffrey Zeldman

Designers drop "interaction design" and "user experience" design like they know (or even care) what they mean. What not one designer agreeing with the comic will say is that is a human interaction design outcome. It's just beyond the designers dropping buzzwords what the implication is.

No wonder the comic is so right on.

[GuerrillaIM]

I see it from both sides. I worked as a designer some years back and have also been doing all my own marketing and advertising for several years.

In my experience the majority of web designer are more interested in making something that looks pretty as opposed to making sales. Whenever I have a design made now I create full wireframes, copy and detailed specification and usability guide before I involve a designer. My main frustration now is having designers not understanding what usability is or ignoring my spec and doing what they want instead.

I could write a funny comic strip with all the dumb stuff designers have said to me over the years.

PS where does Mr Subtle hang out now. I miss reading his posts on old copywriting forum.

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

I learned early on to identify who was paying me, find out what they wanted and then give that to them.

I suspect designers are the same way.

I have no ego in the work I produce beyond that it gets me paid. If a client is smart, he'll take my recommendations about everything from sales process to design; test them; and make money. I have found a surprising number of clients have other priorities for their business besides making money.

Either way I do what will make them happy and get me paid.

[Raydal]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

I have found a surprising number of clients have other priorities for their business besides making money.

Either way I do what will make them happy and get me paid.

LOL. That's funny for sure!

I can't say that I've reached that stage yet though. I want to see
the client do well even if they are paying me to give them the 'wrong'
advice.

But I hear you when you say that sometimes you have to give them
what they want and take your money for your work. It's sad when
you realize this though.

-Ray Edwards

[Kevin Rogers]

Funny indeed.

Now, about those bubble bath videos?

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Kevin Rogers

Funny indeed.

Now, about those bubble bath videos?

Go Rachel! (fellow copywriter and Warrior. SFW) half a Million views (mostly from perverted copywriters) and 85 comments (which are pretty funny). Takes b*lls to do this.

YouTube - Warning! Mature Content!

[Ken Strong]

Originally Posted by Metronicity

Takes b*lls to do this.

So to speak.

[Mr. Subtle]

Originally Posted by Metronicity

Go Rachel! (fellow copywriter and Warrior. SFW) half a Million views (mostly from perverted copywriters) and 85 comments (which are pretty funny). Takes b*lls to do this.

I love it! Rachel rocks! Here's a HEADER we'll (probably) never see...

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by Raydal

LOL. That's funny for sure!

I can't say that I've reached that stage yet though. I want to see
the client do well even if they are paying me to give them the 'wrong'
advice.

But I hear you when you say that sometimes you have to give them
what they want and take your money for your work. It's sad when
you realize this though.

-Ray Edwards

It's not sad for me at all--it's just accepting a reality that most copywriters are too ego centric to accept. My client is not the client's customer. It is the client. I have no ego when it comes to my copy. I tell the client what will do best for them. If they veto it in favor of crap, I give them what they want.

I find that cash is a huge comfort to a bruised ego.

If someone refuses to deliver what the client wants, they may have an intact ego, but they aren't getting paid by that client--or they aren't getting paid "again."

On this board I see lots of people pretend that clients are plentiful. That's a lie. They are not. I would rather please my clients than stroke my ego. I would prefer my clients follow my advice. But at the end of the day I would most prefer they pay me. They pay me (and hire me again) when I am easy to work with and deliver what they ask for.

Ray, you may be at a place where you have such a reputation that pleasing clients is not necessary. I am not.

Edit: I just re-read this and it sounded like some kind of attack on Ray. It wasn't. I agree with pretty much everything I have read from Ray here. My rant I guess was more directed toward those who, unlike Ray, are struggling to survive yet are pretending they have clients lined up for jobs.

[colmodwyer]

I must say, this is quite hilarious...

http://www.youtube.com/v/d6L4JVdnkCo...el=0&fs=0&hd=0

Colm

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

I love it! Rachel rocks! Here's a HEADER we'll (probably) never see...

I bet she makes you an offer for that header. It's a beauty.

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by colmodwyer

I must say, this is quite hilarious...

http://www.youtube.com/v/d6L4JVdnkCo...el=0&fs=0&hd=0

Colm

For those who don't know who Billy Mays was -

YouTube - Billy Mays Mighty Putty Commercial

[davemiz]

lol... you're missing the big picture...

most *real* designers will NOT get into direct response.... because its not as sexy or as creative as working on branding, ads or other design pieces...

99% of the ones you call designers, more than likely have no formal training as a designer, and probably just learned how to use photoshop

[bigchezmktg]

Hey ya bunch of pervs! LOVED reading this thread!

Mr. Subtle - I DEFINITELY wanna make you an offer on that header! It's awesome! I use to have my site done in hot pink and black with a half nekkid woman in the header with the USP "Marketing with men with the b*lls to get rich". The copy was written a la a Viagra ad. I had a 6 month waiting list and never marketed the site once. But as times change, my copy needs to as well.

So your header is right up my alley.

Colm - the Billy Mays vid was a hoot to shoot. The "beard" kept getting in my mouth and since I shot it next to the back door in my kitchen, my neighbors came over halfway through the shoot and scared the sh*t outta me during filming! HA!

I gotta say, though, the most surprising was the comments to the Web Design comic! It isn't about ego as some of you claim. Its about creating a site that will actually do what the client hired you to make it do!

I had a client who was acting JUST like the guy in the comic strip. I mean, to a TEEEEE!

It took a stern email suggesting that he let me do what I was hired to do instead of trying to learn all the technical aspects of web design and what he thought would look the best (since he wasn't his customer).

The customer appreciated my honesty and indeed allowed me to create a fantastic site (in Flash, rather than WordPress. I thought it'd be a better fit for him).

I was willing to fire the customer if he didn't do business MY way (um, since I control what goes on in my own business and who I decide to do copy and websites for).

I think that's what makes the determination between RUNNING a copywriting or web design business and letting it RUN you. It's kept me in business for 10 years so I know that philosophy works for at least ONE person.

Keep the comments coming! This has been a great read!

Rachel

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by bigchezmktg

Hey ya bunch of pervs! LOVED reading this thread!

Mr. Subtle - I DEFINITELY wanna make you an offer on that header! It's awesome! I use to have my site done in hot pink and black with a half nekkid woman in the header with the USP "Marketing with men with the b*lls to get rich". The copy was written a la a Viagra ad. I had a 6 month waiting list and never marketed the site once. But as times change, my copy needs to as well.

So your header is right up my alley.

Colm - the Billy Mays vid was a hoot to shoot. The "beard" kept getting in my mouth and since I shot it next to the back door in my kitchen, my neighbors came over halfway through the shoot and scared the sh*t outta me during filming! HA!

I gotta say, though, the most surprising was the comments to the Web Design comic! It isn't about ego as some of you claim. Its about creating a site that will actually do what the client hired you to make it do!

I had a client who was acting JUST like the guy in the comic strip. I mean, to a TEEEEE!

It took a stern email suggesting that he let me do what I was hired to do instead of trying to learn all the technical aspects of web design and what he thought would look the best (since he wasn't his customer).

The customer appreciated my honesty and indeed allowed me to create a fantastic site (in Flash, rather than WordPress. I thought it'd be a better fit for him).

I was willing to fire the customer if he didn't do business MY way (um, since I control what goes on in my own business and who I decide to do copy and websites for).

I think that's what makes the determination between RUNNING a copywriting or web design business and letting it RUN you. It's kept me in business for 10 years so I know that philosophy works for at least ONE person.

Keep the comments coming! This has been a great read!

Rachel

I fire customers all the time. Well...maybe not all the time - only when they're more trouble than they're worth. Yeah - the ones that try and tell us how to do our job. Got one at the moment, as it happens. Now what other naughty videos of Rachel can I find and post hmmm.

Shame you took that other site of yours down. It was out there.

[Maverick_]

Any suggestions how i can get that commercial in front of my clients before I start their work so they "get the hint".

You're 100% right, we're hired to do a job because we're qualified.

I love the turbine example too!

-Adam

[dtendrich]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

On this board I see lots of people pretend that clients are plentiful. That's a lie. They are not.

You sure they're all pretendin'? Maybe some of those guys are doin well for themselves.

David

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by dtendrich

You sure they're all pretendin'? Maybe some of those guys are doin well for themselves.

David

Are there a few people on this board who have more clients than they can handle for the foreseeable future? Sure.

What I said was "lots of people." When I see a guy on this board offering to write a sales letter for $1,000.00 then he's not covered up with clients. Yet we rarely see anyone admit that or point out that getting, keeping and growing a client base can be tough.

I think we would all profit from more honesty and less posturing. Anyone who's been in this game any length of time can smell out a pretender. Not everyone is fooled.

I won't say whom I believe is "the real deal" and who is full of it, but a number of the copywriters here could probably use a friend who has been through it before and is willing to give them some encouragement. Unfortunately if a newer copywriter spends all his time posturing he can't later come here and ask for encouragement.

[dtendrich]

Hm... I see where you're comin' from. I think this side of the forum has some work to do before people feel comfortable to be that open though. There's kinda this underlying competition vibe goin on.

Maybe those of us with a steady stream of clients can post our client-getting tactics? Then some of those guys could take action on it, and wouldn't even have to "humble themselves". They could just "lurkingly" read the posts and take notes.

David

[Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter]

Originally Posted by dtendrich

Hm... I see where you're comin' from. I think this side of the forum has some work to do before people feel comfortable to be that open though. There's kinda this underlying competition vibe goin on.

Maybe those of us with a steady stream of clients can post our client-getting tactics? Then some of those guys could take action on it, and wouldn't even have to "humble themselves". They could just "lurkingly" read the posts and take notes.

David

Maybe it's just the way I'm put together, but I don't think the times people really struggle it's usually just needing to find a new technique.

I have relationships with lots of business people in all sorts of online and offline business. Business in general can be tough. Having a real friend who you can confide in about what's going on in your business and life can be powerfully helpful and even life changing.

I see this kind of relationship developing in other groups I am a part of, but not so much here. Too much insecurity.

People give up on their business every day. Chances are in the time I have been a part of this board some of the hopeful--maybe even previously successful--copywriters have given up. Maybe if we were a little more open about our struggles in business that wouldn't happen as often.

But, as Mal will probably observe when he reads this, it might just be my time of the month.

[dtendrich]

Kevin - I agree with you man. In fact, there doesn't really seem to be any sharing at all - neither good or bad.

Things are kept at the business level.

I think if people were open about their successes AND failures that could make for a cool little revolution to this place.

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

Maybe it's just the way I'm put together, but I don't think the times people really struggle it's usually just needing to find a new technique.

I have relationships with lots of business people in all sorts of online and offline business. Business in general can be tough. Having a real friend who you can confide in about what's going on in your business and life can be powerfully helpful and even life changing.

I see this kind of relationship developing in other groups I am a part of, but not so much here. Too much insecurity.

People give up on their business every day. Chances are in the time I have been a part of this board some of the hopeful--maybe even previously successful--copywriters have given up. Maybe if we were a little more open about our struggles in business that wouldn't happen as often.

But, as Mal will probably observe when he reads this, it might just be my time of the month.

Not at all. I agree with you. I see a lot of "posturing" on this board also. It's one thing to "fake it until you make it" but quite another to be a blatant BS artist with no track record.

Mike Humphreys made some good comments about "positioning yourself" a few months back. He might like to chime in. But it was along the lines of "if you start doing salespages for $399 you're gonna be known as "that guy that does the cheap salespages".

I took note of that - so now I charge $399.99 and I've never looked back. In fact I've managed to buy the house of my dreams, I drive a Bentley and my wife is a super-model. And it's all thanks to the WSO ads I run. Life's great!

[Anita Ashland]

Originally Posted by Kevin-VirtualProfitCenter

Having a real friend who you can confide in about what's going on in your business and life can be powerfully helpful and even life changing.

I see this kind of relationship developing in other groups I am a part of, but not so much here. Too much insecurity.

I've been involved with copywriting forums for a few years now and I don't think that type of atmosphere will ever develop among copywriters in a public forum setting.

I've seen too many newbie and struggling copywriters get dissed or told things like how it's nonsense that they can't get clients in a recession, after all look at all the new businesses that launched during the Great Depression, etc. etc.

At the same time, the last thing a copywriter needs is to seek approval from other copywriters. Approval is like a drug - one hit is never enough. Approval is also as debilitating as criticism. There's a fine line between asking for advice and asking for approval. In a public forum sometimes that line gets crossed.

The bottom line is that no other copywriter really cares about your business like you do and their opinion, especially as expressed in a public forum, should be taken with heaps of salt.

When I was first starting out a few years ago I participated in Michel Fortin's now defunct Copywriters Board. It didn't take long to suss out the copywriters who were the real deal. I contacted them privately and we developed relationships behind the scene that continue to this day. If I need a second pair of eyes to look at a draft of copy or just want to unload about something, I turn to those people.

Most of the interacting I do today with fellow copywriters in public occurs on Twitter. Interestingly, almost none of them belong to forums, which is telling. It's been far easier to build a rapport with fellow copywriters on Twitter than on public forums. Maybe the 140 character word length makes it easier because people can't indulge in as much puffery. :-)