Ryan Deiss says long form sales letters are dead... What do you think?

[Mr. Subtle]

Another BORING read-the-type-onscreen video came out the other day by Er*c R@ckefeller:

I'm sure some can watch the almost 15 minutes of video, but I barely made it to the 1 minute mark.

Give me a 1 page sales letter of the above and I can skim read it in less than 2 minutes. (Maybe less than a minute.)

[AP]

Any good marketer knows the correct answer...

TEST

Every market, every niche, age bracket, product is unique.

What about people who have dial-up (ever live in Michigan) and video won't load, then what?

~AP

[lamberw]

Different methods will work with different niches and for people who have different modalities of internalising information. Visual learners are likely to be receptive to video and sales letters.

Audio learners will prefer the videos.

The real truth is to test it in your niche and you don't need to buy Ryan's product to be able to do that.

[The French Marketer]

Originally Posted by Dayne Dylan

Just my two cents, and there is NO way that is worth $197 if you can already do successful copywriting and have even an ounce of knowledge of how to make online videos.

Well, I guess you realize that you're speaking about 3... maybe 4 people in the back of the room.
The vast majority of people can't write effective copy, much less do great video.

Would you say that no copywriting course is worth $197 ?

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

Give me a 1 page sales letter of the above and I can skim read it in less than 2 minutes. (Maybe less than a minute.)

And then... after these 2 minutes of skimming, do you end up buying ?

Originally Posted by lamberw

The real truth is to test it in your niche and you don't need to buy Ryan's product to be able to do that.

It makes sense.
However, you do need to test between a GOOD salesletter and a GOOD video, which means you'd need training in both.
Whatever the market, I'll bet a good salesletter will win hands-down against a bad video, and a good video will beat the heck out of a bad salesletter...

I find it funny that people actually advise people to test before they get the training, which makes no sense at all.
In my own business, I found that laying out a script for a video and shooting / uploading would take me 2-6 hours tops, and still get me a 2% conversion rate, when writing a sales letter good enough to beat the video will take me a week or more...
So I prefer to go the easy way.

Sebastien

[Russell Hall]

Some really worthwhile points on this topic that's drawn a lot of thoughtful input.

For me I think the trend is clear,.. and this is echoed by the likes of Ryan Deiss, Armand Morin and Michel Fortin (who predicted this trend 3 years ago when he wrote "Death of the Sales Letter").
Prior to the "video revolution" long sales letters were the norm as far as weaving the sales message and builiding emotion.
I tend to speed skim long copy these days whereas a few years ago I would stop to read a lot more. I find that a nice combo of video with body copy is a great format,.. and video where copy PPT slides are crafted into the video are also terrific.

My experience is that you need to be doing both,.. video and sales copy and to be conscious of the audience attention span and just use the best methods of getting your message across or even getting them onto your list ASAP and then working your sales story across more gradually over time to get the sale.

[rafib]

It really, really depends. There are tons of 15 minute videos that you need to sit through to even SEE the ending, that are claiming amazing conversion rates. But when I watch people in real life who are interested in the product, they never have the patience to sit through it.

So can video work? Yes.

Can sales copy work? Yes.

Can a combination work? Yes.

Ultimately, it depends how it's done, who your audience done, and then testing to see what works the best.

-Rafi

[Ricci Cox]

I think both have their place personally.

My first ever product sold out and that was sending traffic direct to a classic-type of sales letter (which was over 24-pages long printed-out!). And this converted very well!

And I have used the long-form sales letter method very recently, so there is no doubt it still works if done properly...

In my humble opinion, the long form sales letter will NEVER die. As long as the copy is awesome... and gripping... and emotional... and gets the prospect fired up enough to take action, then you WILL succeed with a long sales letter - I GUARANTEE it.

For anyone with doubts, read some of the great copy writers sales letters - Ted Nicholas, Gary Halbert, etc. And then compare it to one of the many long, boring video sales letters kicking around the IM scene at the moment - see which one gets you going. I know where my money is...

Having said all of that, there is no doubt that video does work in certain niches (particularly Internet Marketing niche it seems) but to just ditch the sales letter because of one persons says so would be CRAZY.

Personally, I think a combination of the 2 could work well in certain niches. I plan to try this out in a couple of niches this year...

A main killer headline with a short, interesting video underneath, which then leads the prospect into the main sales copy underneath. I think it could work very well indeed.

But hey, that's just my opinion...

[SimonHarrison]

Idea Hatchery

Rather long copy ish......

Like I said, Ryan would tell you Camels
are extinct if he could breed horses with humps.

This from somebody who likes his material.

You do have to take what some folks
say with a heavy dose of salt.

[Dainis]

At my Cure Tinnitus Member Community, people do not seem to buy from my long form sales copy here Start Healing From Tinnitus | Cure Tinnitus Community

...they buy from tough to find direct payment links in emails after a healthy dose of earth-shatteringly awesome, deeply caring, up-front...free...information.

In a sense, for me, the sales letter is dead, because it's a sales process. Each little "piece" of the sales letter a la John Carlton needs to be in place, but those pieces may be divided between articles, video, calls, and short form copy.

Sure, you can keep your long form copy available, because "it's all there," but my eyes roll into the back of my head when I need to read another long form sales letter. Even when it's in a niche I'm interested in.

So, it's up to us to densely pack our sales messages in as concise a manner as possible...and fluffy irrelevant video will get you turned off just like fluffy irrelevant copy will get you ignored...

AP said it best: TEST.

[gareth]

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

I've been preaching this for 3 years now. All my testing shows short video (or even videos) inside a real sales letter outsell video alone... or letters alone.

The only exception to the rule is the current fad with the powerpoint reading of a sales letter. And this is just a fad.

Well I know when I find a good long form sales letter about something I really want I read the whole thing over and over whilst drooling.

I find myself wishing the letter was longer while my anticipation & desire to get the product builds.

Video I often don't even watch because of technical difficulties EG: wrong version of player, bandwidth issues etc. But when there is a decent video I will watch the whole thing right through.

Many of the top guys now base their launches upon video and have done so for at least a couple of years now.

So the stats don't lie - a split test should include all 3

Pure video

Pure sales letter

Combination

You can test on your front end or through emails.

Actually I can see great value in a course like this for people using video distribution to drive traffic & affiliate sales etc & would buy the course for that alone - not even on site sales - if the course is actually any good.

[affiliatechick]

My opinion, coming from my "consumer" side, is that I hate reading long sales letters or copy that make you have to scroll down forever... I just want to know what you have, what it will do for me, and what I have to do to go about purchasing it, if i like what I see/read in the first place... that's it. With long sales letter, people tend to explain their life story and don't even get to the actual product until the end... maybe there are times that call for a long sales letter, but in general short and sweet converts me better... that's just my opinion...

[Sam Dunning]

Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan

As mentioned he HAS to say
"long sales letters are dead!" in order to con, er I mean
persuade people into buying his product.

Is this not a cliche comming from a copywriter?

Just wondering if you consider all the sales you make for your clients as a con?

Regards,

Sam

[Joe Robinson]

I actually prefer the sales letter over videos, sure the information is still limited but I feel you get more out of that than a short video. Plus I like to read lol.

[Anthony La Tour]

I actually prefer the video over long sales form.
I actually purchased this product, and I think it's great!
He also mentioned that you should keep the video at no more
then 14 minutes long.

[abhinav]

He's saying that because he wants to sell his course, ofcourse your offer in the end will be everything. You can try no. of sales letter to see its conversion and keep on improving.

[SVLABS]

What a great conversation. I wonder how many sales Ryan got from this thread.

Copy writing has been around for a very long time. As its been pointed out plenty of times, circumstances call for different approaches. Sometimes long copy is going to outsell video and short copy. Other times it will work differently.

In the end nothing is dead. Copy is copy no matter if it's spoken or if it's written. Ever been to a pitch fest? It's all spoken copy, and its long form.

My company specializes in video branding and video marketing across different platforms from video blogs to streams to sales pages. Each product or service is different. Some pages will have copy with the video. Others will have just the video with a headline. Some are opt-in while others are direct to a payment page.

Golden rule: everything was tested. Every combination, every placement, every phrase both in the text copy and in the video copy.

Are we starting to see a pattern emerging yet? In my biased opinion, video is a brilliant medium to use for your sales and promotion but its not the be all and end all.

Nothing is dead!

[geegel]

ALL blanket statements are wrong. Oh wait

There's a place for every format and just in case you missed it let me quote someone who posted above me.

TEST

[eaglechick]

I hate watching videos and then you have to guess where to click and some videos don't give the opportunity to stop or opt out.

If a sales letter is too short - I feel cheated
Appreciate when there is no flashy cars and get a medium length intro but an in-depth explanation on what the product is about and what I can expect from it.
Please not a 101 testimonials - 5 is about the limit I can handle
Clear instructions on where to click!

[Paul McQuillan]

I like some long sales pages. I like them more if they have a short video (not one of those tv commercial type with the music)

I always start at the headline area and skip to the price. Then I will start to go through the rest of it.

I think long sales letters are good if they are interesting (some are SO boring)

[fypnlp]

Originally Posted by HypeFree

I think every form of sales i active not dead: some like video, some like audio, some like text, some will like holograms. Whatever works in whatever combination!

Totally agree

[Mr. Enthusiastic]

Great topic!

In Ryan's sales videos, did he use the existing sales letter as a script?

If not, he changed two variables in one test.
1. From the old copy to the new copy.
2. From providing the copy as text to providing the copy as a spoken-word performance using video.

It's impossible to prove that point 2 alone was what made the difference. This test is like a restaurant that served a different menu at different prices in a different neighborhood at a different time of day. Did the new drink options cause the difference in profits?

I think that a lot of the discussions really miss the point, by arguing about the wrong thing. Mark Joyner uses the phrase, satisfy your buyer's thirst then offer them another glass.

Goals: create rapport, show understanding of the buyer's problem, show a solution, show the solution could work for them, take away fear about ordering, show how to order, invite the order now.

These goals never change. The way to satisfy them does change.

The form this takes could be different in each situation. Some people want and expect big plastic cups. Some people want a long stemmed crystal goblet. Some insist that their cool drink include tinkling ice cubes. Some want to see a ceramic pitcher with water evaporating from the sides to cool the contents. Some require a high-tech, double-walled plastic thermos with vacuum insulation. Some beverages are best served to people sitting down where there is a tablecloth. Some get passed from fan to fan on the bleachers.

I might enjoy all of these situations in a week.

So, what's the best cup?

What's the best structure for the sales pitch?

How about: the one each particular audience is most ready to use and buy from?

The point of a letter is that it's a condensed version of a salesman's pitch, sent where it's not affordable to send a salesman in person. Some people would prefer to get that message by video. No matter how high-def video gets, some people will still prefer to read. Give them their beverage of choice in a cup they like.

Chris

[The French Marketer]

Originally Posted by Mr. Enthusiastic

No matter how high-def video gets, some people will still prefer to read.

It's about to change...
Some videos are so High-Def and crisp now, you can almost read the 0's and 1's in them. That should get everyone on the same page

[AustinLadyTam]

Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan

I remember a sales page that was audio only!!!

The first online radio commercial, huh?

[tswartz]

The product will sell itself if it is a good product, but the sales letter definitely helps. The trick here is making the sales letter new, while sticking with the best method for conversion. I would agree, overall, that the broad/bulleted "dear friend" letter is probably on its last leg.

We're also getting much more saturated in most markets than a few years ago, which could have something to do with the decrease too?

[power88]

Not at all true. Copy should be long enough to make the sale. No shorter. No longer. That's always been the case and always will be.

[DCromwell]

I really think this is more buyer specific. That's a bold statement to say that long sales copy is dead. If that were the case, those of us with long standing 2-4+ page sales pages would suddenly see income and leads bottom out while bounce rates climb to 80% or more.

This is one of those issues where it's important to understand your buyer persona and recognize that as we make advancements in the technology used online those buyer preferences are going to change as well.

Some niche markets and the buyers within are going to respond more favorably to video, like Nike. The groundswell surrounding the Nike World Cup video is a perfect example. Could you get the same effect with a video droning on about diapers, forex or bra's?

Ok.. I'd probably watch a video about bra's.

If you see conversion plummet for a sales page that typically does well, I would recommend taking the time to re-evaluate your target market (buyer persona included) and see if that copy is still what they want. As mentioned in previous posts, this is certainly a candidate for split testing.

[Hesaidblissfully]

Originally Posted by dannyadams

Skimmers don't get the value of the product. That's part of the problem with the long form sales letter.

They scroll down, see the price, have nothing to justify the price, and leave.

A video (WITHOUT CONTROLS) may loose a few people who aren't patient enough to watch the entire video but if you headline it right and keep it short, it can work well.

Depends on the skimmer. I'll skim a sales letter, but only to see what the product is about. Once I know what it offers, then the price may become a consideration. I've never skimmed down just to see the price and then left the page without at least finding out what the product is supposed to do.

One of the reasons why this debate is still ongoing is that everyone has little personal preferences like that. I've heard a significant number of people (some even on this forum) who say that as soon as they see a long form sales letter, they exit the page because "All those internet scam products use those same kinds of letters, with the long page and the big red headline, so this one must've been a scam too!" I've heard similar comments about infomercials, and yet infomercials still sell. Give it enough time and those people will be (and I'm sure some already are) saying the same thing about video sales letters.

You can't please everybody.

[Note Taking Nerd #2]

My personal belief is that if you don't offer both forms, written and video, of your sales presentation, you're asking for less conversion than is possible.

The reason I say this is based on what I've learned/had reinforced by Eben Pagan who's learned from Wyatt Woodsmall about different learning styles and how to appeal to them in all of your marketing and content.

Writing content, which in essence is one of the greatest marketing tools you can use, that appeals to the 4 different learning styles should communicate...

What the information is...

Why you should care about it...

How to accomplish the outcome...

And What to do Now to start on your path to profiting from the information you're absorbing

If all of these are appealed to in your sales/marketing material, you leave no one's learning preference out.

BUUUUT... if you use the video salesletter/or marketing as the only option and you force people to learn at your pace, you risk alienating the people who know just want to know how to get the results they want because you've trapped it 15-25 minutes down the road.

If there were a print letter WITH the video that let's these people who don't have the time nor the patience to "Hang Out" with a promo, they can skim to the exact parts they need to see to be convinced and buy once they're satisfied.

I know some people who HATE video salesletters. They won't watch em. And it pisses them off that they're forced to follow that path and that they can't just GO to the parts they want to.

For me, it's been quite a while since I watched a full marketing video or salesletter. I don't hate em or love em', I'm kinda "Eh" about em. When I wasn't as pro-active with my business and looking for distractions to kill time, I used to go through a lot of that stuff.

Whenever one comes up, I always ask, "Do I have time to watch this incomplete but useful information for 25 minutes or is there some other important **** I need to do with this time?"

And since I've stopped wasting time, I skip the marketing and salesletters EVEN though I'm the ideal prospect for them.

Now, just a couple days ago, I can admit that I absorbed the entire argument that I needed to for Jason Fladlien's February seminar that's coming up. Took about 7 minutes of my time but that was all I needed to float down the page and decide this was something I wanted to participate in.

The analogy that comes to my naughty mind right now is porno that has the cheesy story line and dialogue woven into it... and porno that just gets down to the ****ing. Different strokes for different folks, right. :-)

Not everyone needs a full blown production to get their rocks off.

For me it makes sense to address the 4 learning styles and let people buy the way the want, at the pace they want to, not the way you think is "cool" or think they should because you're too lazy to provide both. Video with Written below makes the most sense for me.

And for those who say written is dead, if the argument above isn't enough to convince you of the common sense that says otherwise, just know that NONE of the notetakingnerd sales material is on video... and we're doing LAV-LAV-LOVELY numbers.