I Need Your Advice

14 years ago

I don't know about these big name copywriters. But I have just hired a copywriter with a good reputation and I am paying around $1,500

Ryan

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SMS

14 years ago

Thanks Ryan.

I think the kinda guys 'n gals I have in mind will cost a bit more than $1,500. However, you won't hear me complaining if a 'big name' copywriter decides to charge me $1,500.

Originally Posted by Scootek

I don't know about these big name copywriters. But I have just hired a copywriter with a good reputation and I am paying around $1,500

Ryan

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Scootek

14 years ago

I had a feeling you are talking about serious level copywriters...I had someone quote me £9,000 last week. I said, thank you, but no thank you. Yes, they would be able to do some magic, but even for £9K they won't do miracles.

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SMS

14 years ago

You'll be surprised, Ryan...

I actually used to think like you, but consider this...

You pay $2K for a copywriter, and your campaign earns $25K. That's a stellar return if you ask me... but what if...

You pay $9K for another copywiter, and pull in $70K.

These figures are made up, obviously, and there's absolutely no guarantee that a $9K copywriter will make you more money than a $2K copywriter, but if the figures above were real, and you knew this ahead of time, which of the two copywriters would you go for?

Having said that, I have nothing against less established copywriters. It just so happens that I have a very specific need, and I believe that need will be best fulfilled by a 'big name'.

Thanks for your input.

Originally Posted by Scootek

I had a feeling you are talking about serious level copywriters...I had someone quote me £9,000 last week. I said, thank you, but no thank you. Yes, they would be able to do some magic, but even for £9K they won't do miracles.

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Scootek 14 years ago

I do agree with you to some extent. It all depends on the nature and value of the product/service you are selling.

If your business/website justies that kind of spend then who am I to argue.

However, on some things, I think, you can overspend without adding too much value...after a certain point in the curve, you might be paying a lot more and but the gains/rewards get smaller and smaller.

I would be interseted to know about what the business or the site is.
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Paul Hancox

14 years ago

Hi Oz

Interesting questions

Originally Posted by SMS

1. Is it necessary to work with a 'big name' copywriter, if one wants to attract JV Partners with massive lists (over 50K subscribers) to particpate in a Product Launch?

Not necessarily. Obviously, a "big name" like John Carlton is going to help your cause... but you have to ask, how many potential JV partners have heard of that many copywriters, besides the really big names?

Sure, copywriters tend to know a lot of other copywriters, but that doesn't necessarily translate into JV partners knowing lots of copywriters.

2. If one was able to nab such a copywriter, would it still be necessary to use the services of a JV Broker... or would the copywriter's clout be enough?

It depends on how successful you want your launch to be. A JV Broker could bring additional clout beyond the, "Hey, we've got a great copywriter!" argument.

3. I have no doubt that these 'big name' copywriters are in very heavy demand... any idea how long one would have to wait for one to become available?

It depends on what you mean by a "big name". To me, the only "big names" that most JV Partners in any niche are likely to have heard of are John Carlton and Dan Kennedy.

I know other people will throw out other names (yes, there are lots of great copywriters), but you have to ask how well those names are known OUTSIDE of the copywriting community.

Now, specific niches may have copywriters that are well known to the big marketers in that niche... but (a) you have to research to find out who they are, and (b) even then, copywriters tend to be the "hidden hand", operating behind the scenes. It's not like the marketers are going to TRUMPET that their sales "letter" to their oh so dear prospect was actually written by someone else

4. Likewise... I don't expect them to come cheap. :p Any idea what a minimum fee would be?

If we're talking Dan Kennedy or John Carlton...

$10,000.

For a headline...

Disclaimer: That's a pure guess. You'd have to contact them to find out.

5. Finally, I'd really appreciate names of any copywriters that have a big reputation with JV Partners.

I guess this would critically depend upon the niche.

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Daniel Scott

14 years ago

Hi Oz,

How big a draw the "name" of your copywriter is will depend on several aspects.

For a start... different copywriters are more or less well-known in different niches.

If you were doing a health loss product... most of the big dogs would probably know Vin's name.

Lots of guys in the FX industry know me.

If you were doing an IM launch David Raybould, Vin Montello, or Kevin Rogers would all be massive names.

Now this is just a (very) short list off the top of my head... there are probably a ton of other great copywriters that would have "brand recognition" in these niches.

Having said that... yes, you need a JV broker, unless you know who to talk to and what to say. You can try and get by without but it's an excellent investment if you can afford it. Again, JV brokers vary by market, so ask around and find out who worked on the big launches in your niche.

Demand-wise... on average a few months, sometimes more, sometimes less. Some copywriters do rush jobs for a higher fee... but since you have to plan your launch etc anywhere it's probably unnecessary for you.

In regard to fees, I would expect anywhere from $5k to $20k, depending on who you hire. Some guys charge a % of sales in addition to a flat fee - sometimes as a necessity and sometimes as an optional extra (ie. less up front and more on the back).

I know these answers are all very vague, but at least it'll give you some kind of idea.

Good luck with your launch,

-Dan

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RickDuris

14 years ago

Without your own "brand", there are two ways to attract the attention of "big names":

1. Have the conversion stats to prove your offer will do well. Given this is a launch, that's going to be difficult.

2. Being endorsed by a big name IM guru.

Having a "big name" known copywriter is nice but not for the reason you think.

Your question kind of reminds of a story of Bernard Baruch. He was sorta the Warren Buffet of his time.

A man paid him a visit at his office and asked him for a loan. Bernard said no.

But then he followed up by saying "I'll do something for you that's even better. You and I will walk the floor of the stock market exchange, and I'll put my around your shoulder for all to see. After that, you'll have no problem getting what you need."

- Rick Duris

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SMS

14 years ago

WOW - I've got Paul & Daniel on this thread. Two guys whose reputations go before them... so much so that even I know of them.

The reason I ask these questions is that from my observation... the success of a product/launch had very little to do with the quality of the product itself or even the brand of the vendor. :confused:

However, it does appear that 90% of the success depends on the ability to pull in JV Partners, and the quality of the sales copy. It is obvious that the quality of the copy is determined by the copywriter, but it also seems that the 'brand' of the copywriter might also influence the willingness of JV Partners to come on board.

Daniel, I am aware of the three names you mention for IM... PLUS the one name you mention for FOREX. :p

Incidentally, the FOREX and Stock Market niches are my love children and I've had you in my sights for a while. I'd love to touch base with you whenever you have a spare moment.

The product that I currently want to launch is in the IM niche. My dilemma is that I have MASSIVE ambitions for the product - so I need to make sure I work with a copywriter who will not just write excellent copy, but can also grab teh attention of potential JV Partners.

So beyond David, Vin & Kevin are there any other 'brands' I need to be aware of in the IM niche?

What of JV Brokers? Who are the good ones beyond JVNotifyPro? And will a good JV Broker compensate for the lack of a 'big name' copywriter?

I wish this wasn't so complicated. I would love to just get with a great copywriter and do a launch - but ALAS... life ain't so simple.

Paul, when you mentioned 10K my heart fluttered with hope - until I saw the next line.

I'd be very interested in your advice regarding JV Brokers.

Many thanks guys!

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Daniel Scott

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SMS

It is obvious that the quality of the copy is determined by the copywriter, but it also seems that the 'brand' of the copywriter might also influence the willingness of JV Partners to come on board.

Interesting you mention that.

I was chatting to Kevin Rogers the other day and he was telling me a client of his was contacting people for JVs.

The consensus was something along these lines:

"Look, I don't care what you're selling. If Rogers is on it... I'm in!"

Of course, Vin or Dave would likely get the same reaction. I'm sure there are others that fall within your budget, but I can't think of them off the top of my head. Maybe Matt O'Connor or Ross Bowring - both very talented writers who produce big results.

Of course, they're all students of Vin's which is why I know them... but pretty much all of Vin's guys do good work.

Incidentally, the FOREX and Stock Market niches are my love children and I've had you in my sights for a while. I'd love to touch base with you whenever you have a spare moment.

Aw shucks... I'm blushing. Feel free to send me a PM or get in contact via my website... or even Skype me (though I'm not always around).

So beyond David, Vin & Kevin are there any other 'brands' I need to be aware of in the IM niche?

Probably, but I can't think of any. I can name several unbelievably good copywriters - Brian McLeod, Collette Gillian etc - but I don't think their names are quite as big as Vin or Kevin's in the IM arena at the moment.

I know the guy who did Kieran Gill's latest launch would be hot property, but Kieran seems to want to keep his name private - although maybe he'd be happy to put you in touch.

I don't know too much about JV brokers so I'll eave that to someone more experienced.

-Dan

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SMS

14 years ago

The consensus was something along these lines:

"Look, I don't care what you're selling. If Rogers is on it... I'm in!"

That's exactly what I mean.

Aw shucks... I'm blushing. Feel free to send me a PM or get in contact via my website... or even Skype me (though I'm not always around).

And a little bird tells me that you have similar impact in the FOREX niche (as Rogers does in the IM niche), so don't you go blushing on me. :p

I wonder if the role of the copywriter is evolving from that of JUST pitching/selling a product to potential customers to ALSO pitching/selling a campaign to potential JV Partners and affiliates?

From where I am sitting, it looks like the latter is now more important than the former.

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Interesting you mention that.

I was chatting to Kevin Rogers the other day and he was telling me a client of his was contacting people for JVs.

The consensus was something along these lines:

"Look, I don't care what you're selling. If Rogers is on it... I'm in!"

Of course, Vin or Dave would likely get the same reaction. I'm sure there are others that fall within your budget, but I can't think of them off the top of my head. Maybe Matt O'Connor or Ross Bowring - both very talented writers who produce big results.

Of course, they're all students of Vin's which is why I know them... but pretty much all of Vin's guys do good work.

Aw shucks... I'm blushing. Feel free to send me a PM or get in contact via my website... or even Skype me (though I'm not always around).

Probably, but I can't think of any. I can name several unbelievably good copywriters - Brian McLeod, Collette Gillian etc - but I don't think their names are quite as big as Vin or Kevin's in the IM arena at the moment.

I know the guy who did Kieran Gill's latest launch would be hot property, but Kieran seems to want to keep his name private - although maybe he'd be happy to put you in touch.

I don't know too much about JV brokers so I'll eave that to someone more experienced.

-Dan

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Hans Klein

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SMS

It is obvious that the quality of the copy is determined by the copywriter, but it also seems that the 'brand' of the copywriter might also influence the willingness of JV Partners to come on board.

Just to add to the already great advice given... you'd think well-known marketers would be able to evaluate copy well given their success. But, the truth is... this isn't always the case. It's hard for them to tell when they're looking at quality copy.

From my experience, I get the impression many may just look for elements that they "think" should be there like proof elements, fancy graphics, or video.

So, at the end of the day... you've got to sell them on promoting you. Things like stats, brands of folks involved, a quality product, having done the marketer a favor in the past, a past track-record, a slick looking site and process, impressive prizes, likability, and so on help you do this.

So... no matter who you go with... a compelling pitch is helpful... whether you deliver it in email, skype, on the phone, in person, or on an affiliate pitch page.

This is something a copywriter can help you formulate as well.

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SMS

14 years ago

Thanks for your contribution, Hans.

I agree with you... I don't think many of these guys actually evealuate the copy let alone the products. That unfortunately leaves many quality copywriters and vendors at a disadvantage when it comes to bringing JV partners on board.

I really wish that wasn't the case.

Oz.

Originally Posted by Hans Klein

Just to add to the already great advice given... you'd think well-known marketers would be able to evaluate copy well given their success. But, the truth is... this isn't always the case. It's hard for them to tell when they're looking at quality copy.

From my experience, I get the impression many may just look for elements that they "think" should be there like proof elements, fancy graphics, or video.

So, at the end of the day... you've got to sell them on promoting you. Things like stats, brands of folks involved, a quality product, having done the marketer a favor in the past, a past track-record, a slick looking site and process, impressive prizes, likability, and so on help you do this.

So... no matter who you go with... a compelling pitch is helpful... whether you deliver it in email, skype, on the phone, in person, or on an affiliate pitch page.

This is something a copywriter can help you formulate as well.

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SMS

14 years ago

Thanks for chipping in Rick.

Unfortunately, I don't have the 'brand' yet - and that's part of the reason I want to do a launch. I really want to reach a bigger audience.

Conversion stats can be faked - can't they? However, I do have excellent conversion stats and testimonials from the WSO Forum, but I don't think these carry much weight with JV Partners. They just seem to more interested in price points and commission levels, and yes 'big name' copywriters.

That's my observation, any way.

Yes... an endorsement would certainly help. Unfortunately, I don't mix in such rarefied circles. LOL.

So what's the real reason I need a 'big name' copywriter.

Nice story.

I actually own a copy of one of Mr. Baruch's books. Do you operate in the Stock Market niche?

Oz.

Originally Posted by RickDuris

Without your own "brand", there are two ways to attract the attention of "big names":

1. Have the conversion stats to prove your offer will do well. Given this is a launch, that's going to be difficult.

2. Being endorsed by a big name IM guru.

Having a "big name" known copywriter is nice but not for the reason you think.

Your question kind of reminds of a story of Bernard Baruch. He was sorta the Warren Buffet of his time.

A man paid him a visit at his office and asked him for a loan. Bernard said no.

But then he followed up by saying "I'll do something for you that's even better. You and I will walk the floor of the stock market exchange, and I'll put my around your shoulder for all to see. After that, you'll have no problem getting what you need."

- Rick Duris

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RickDuris

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SMS

Thanks for chipping in Rick.

Unfortunately, I don't have the 'brand' yet - and that's part of the reason I want to do a launch. I really want to reach a bigger audience.

Conversion stats can be faked - can't they? However, I do have excellent conversion stats and testimonials from the WSO Forum, but I don't think these carry much weight with JV Partners. They just seem to more interested in price points and commission levels, and yes 'big name' copywriters.

That's my observation, any way.

Yes... an endorsement would certainly help. Unfortunately, I don't mix in such rarefied circles. LOL.

So what's the real reason I need a 'big name' copywriter.

Nice story.

I actually own a copy of one of Mr. Baruch's books. Do you operate in the Stock Market niche?
Oz.

To answer your questions:

1. Modestly, several promotions in the stock market industry have done well.

2. Some well known copywriters, as a favor, will introduce you to their other Clients who they know have large, responsive lists. That's the real benefit of hiring a "well known" copywriter. They are connected. If you've got the goods, they'll "put their arm around your shoulder." But you'll have to prove yourself.

3. And yes, conversions can be faked. But a savvy person with a list can ferret out the "posers." If someone has a large list and the you're unknown, you will be grilled. They don't want to waste a day on their marketing calendar.

- Rick Duris

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SMS

14 years ago

Thanks again, Rick.

To be honest, an introduction should suffice. It would be naive of me to expect any copywriter to move mountains on my behalf, but the ability (of a copywriter) to get me to the mountains, counts for a lot, IMHO.

Hopefully, I'll be able to prove myself.

I appreciate the wise words.

Originally Posted by RickDuris

To answer your questions:

1. Modestly, several promotions in the stock market industry have done well.

2. Some well known copywriters, as a favor, will introduce you to their other Clients who they know have large, responsive lists. That's the real benefit of hiring a "well known" copywriter. They are connected. If you've got the goods, they'll "put their arm around your shoulder." But you'll have to prove yourself.

3. And yes, conversions can be faked. But a savvy person with a list can ferret out the "posers." If someone has a large list and the you're unknown, you will be grilled. They don't want to waste a day on their marketing calendar.

- Rick Duris

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MikeHumphreys

14 years ago

Originally Posted by RickDuris

2. Some well known copywriters, as a favor, will introduce you to their other Clients who they know have large, responsive lists. That's the real benefit of hiring a "well known" copywriter. They are connected. If you've got the goods, they'll "put their arm around your shoulder." But you'll have to prove yourself.

3. And yes, conversions can be faked. But a savvy person with a list can ferret out the "posers." If someone has a large list and the you're unknown, you will be grilled. They don't want to waste a day on their marketing calendar.

- Rick Duris

My thoughts exactly. I'm starting work in a few weeks on a new product launch that will do exactly that. It's not the first time I've worked with this client and we work well together.

Since I'm writing all of the copy and running the launch, my clients and business connections will be much more willing to promote it.

The other thing I'll mention is there's a way to gradually ramp up to a big JV partner launch. Any veteran copywriter will know exactly what I'm talking about and how to sequence it. A JV Broker or Product Launch Manager would too but they probably can't write strong copy to help your promotion reach bigger success.

My advice would be to hire a strong copywriter and worry about a JV Broker (if needed) further down the road.

Hope that helps,

Mike

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SMS

14 years ago

Hi Mike,

First of all, my deepest apologies for neglecting this thread. I launched a new WSO last week Wednesday, and it's taken up 26 hours of every day since then... no joke. :rolleyes:

If a tiny mini internal launch can be soo exhausting... I'm not sure I'm ready to face a big JV Partner Launch yet.

I had assumed that most veteran copywriters would be able to connect their clients with potential JV Partners. However, I didn't want to take anything for granted.

I am just beginning to realise that selling a product to potential promoters is probably more important than selling it to potential customers. That's why my focus is on the former not the latter.

Thanks for your input. It's certainly given me more food for thought.

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

My thoughts exactly. I'm starting work in a few weeks on a new product launch that will do exactly that. It's not the first time I've worked with this client and we work well together.

Since I'm writing all of the copy and running the launch, my clients and business connections will be much more willing to promote it.

The other thing I'll mention is there's a way to gradually ramp up to a big JV partner launch. Any veteran copywriter will know exactly what I'm talking about and how to sequence it. A JV Broker or Product Launch Manager would too but they probably can't write strong copy to help your promotion reach bigger success.

My advice would be to hire a strong copywriter and worry about a JV Broker (if needed) further down the road.

Hope that helps,

Mike

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BA Wealth Team

14 years ago

Hey,

David Raybould Top Man.... JV magnet!

Good Luck

P.s Wait time 3 months on average

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SMS 14 years ago

Mr Raybould's name keeps on cropping up.

Funny enough, we both live in Landon.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by BA Wealth Team

Hey,

David Raybould Top Man.... JV magnet!

Good Luck

P.s Wait time 3 months on average
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HenryCorbett

14 years ago

Originally Posted by SMS

Hi Guys 'n Gals

I am hoping that this is the right place to ask a few questions... and if so that you will be kind enough to provide some tips.

1. Is it necessary to work with a 'big name' copywriter, if one wants to attract JV Partners with massive lists (over 50K subscribers) to particpate in a Product Launch?

2. If one was able to nab such a copywriter, would it still be necessary to use the services of a JV Broker... or would the copywriter's clout be enough?

3. I have no doubt that these 'big name' copywriters are in very heavy demand... any idea how long one would have to wait for one to become available?

4. Likewise... I don't expect them to come cheap. :p Any idea what a minimum fee would be?

5. Finally, I'd really appreciate names of any copywriters that have a big reputation with JV Partners.

Any pointers will be really appreciated, but if I am asking in the wrong place... please let me know.

Merci beaucoup!

Oz.

Hey SMS,

It doesnt necessarily mean that if you get a big name
copywriter the "Big Boys" will promote for you...

Most WONT promote for you in the begining unless
they know that youve got a list to promote for them.

And in my oppinion, I would prefer to just get a
good copywriter (doesnt have to be the best)
and spend the extra on some paid advertising.

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SMS

14 years ago

Hi Henry,

Even if a vendor did have a list, it's not realistic that the vendor will promote for every single JV Partner.

And are you saying that if a potential JV Partners know without a shadow of a doubt that a certain Launch will make them a lot of moolah, that they won't promote unless the vendor promises to reciprocate.

I can see where you are coming from, but it does sound a bit short-sighted on the part of the potential JV Partner.

Thanks for throwing that in.

Originally Posted by HenryCorbett

Hey SMS,

It doesnt necessarily mean that if you get a big name
copywriter the "Big Boys" will promote for you...

Most WONT promote for you in the begining unless
they know that youve got a list to promote for them.

And in my oppinion, I would prefer to just get a
good copywriter (doesnt have to be the best)
and spend the extra on some paid advertising.

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HenryCorbett 13 years ago

Hey SMS,

Sorry about the late reply, I Haven't been on in months.

I wasnt saying that no one would promote, thats why I said most.
I absolutely agree that if someone were to know that
they were going to earn a huge commision, then sure they
would promote.

But in most cases, the only way to know that a JV launch is going
to make conversions is by sending some traffic through there first.
(Even the biggest of names in the industry will have a soft launch
using there own list and maybe even a couple of JV's who "Owe a favour")

And also remember, the initial sale is only the first step, Refunds are
also thrown into the equation. (I think jeff johnson has a good video
video over on youtube, I think its called "5 steps of a super affiliate" something like that, if you have already, you should check it out).

Anyway SMS, I see this thread was started a long time ago, did you end
up getting the copywriter? If so, how did it go? And what market are you in?

Once again, sorry about the late reply.

Henry.
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