What if your client has a product/service guaranteed to fail?

[JonWebContent]

I'm not sure if I selected the right forum for this question, but let's assume you have a client that wants you to provide them with web content but you are certain that no matter how well you write, their business model can't and will not work. Do you take on the project or decline it even if it's a decent paying gig?

The problem is the site owners are trying to market a service towards a local market that has absolutely no need for this. It would be sorta like selling bikinis and targeting folks in Alaska.

[Scott Murdaugh]

You pass.

Take the high road. Educate the client. Could lead to a better relationship further down the road.

-Scott

[JonWebContent]

Originally Posted by Mike Schwenk

I asked a similar question to a lawyer friend of mine once.

"Have you ever had to defend someone that you felt was guilty?"

To which he replied...

"That's why I love doing my own thing now; I pick the cases that interest me. It's not worth the effort to deal with some of the other bullsh*t that comes along."

I think the same could easily apply in this case.

Sure, you could probably make money. But when things flop, depending on what services have been provided, you'll likely be a target of frustration.

Plus, if you are providing a service where your value is measured (even partially) by the results you achieve, you won't be doing yourself any favors.

Instead, if you are able to see these flaws beforehand...why not point them out to your client and educate them on how things could be done differently?

-Mike

Good points, Mike.

First off, on the topic of lawyers.......many great lawyers take on cases where the entire world KNOWS their client is guilty. Take Johnny Cochran, Robert Shapiro.....they took on the OJ case where EVERYONE knew he was 100% guilty. He was found "not guilty" but that's because of the great job his lawyers did. Some lawyers have egos and think they can get even the most obviously guilty clients (ie OJ) acquitted.

As for educating the client - is it really my place to tell someone that has been planning on starting a business for quite some time that their idea can't work? Shouldn't they have put in the research before purchasing a domain and getting their web hosting set-up? People don't want to hear the truth in situations like this. I have a friend that runs a delivery business here in town. He's got a great website, he's got passion for what he's doing. But he's been doing it for 2 years and not making much. Why? Because of what I tried telling him before he started........Des Moines, Iowa is NOT a market for a restaurant delivery service. We have 500,000 population and most of us drive. Every pizza company delivers and so do quite a few other decent restaurants. We don't have much public transportation, and there are no other delivery businesses out there........because they've all failed in the past for reasons I just mentioned. He is of the belief that no competition is good. No it's not. It means nobody think it's a profitable business. I tried telling him this, but he wouldn't listen. Now I try to help him as much as I can, but there's really only so much I can do. People don't like the truth unless the truth is what they wanted to hear.

[Bruce Wedding]

Here's what will happen most of the time...

You tell them your belief that the product will fail.
They will be so emotionally invested in their "brilliant" idea that they will insist you are wrong and say, "thanks but I still want to try."
Then take the money. You did your job.

[JonWebContent]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

Here's what will happen most of the time...

You tell them your belief that the product will fail.
They will be so emotionally invested in their "brilliant" idea that they will insist you are wrong and say, "thanks but I still want to try."
Then take the money. You did your job.

Good point. You can't make people succeed. They have to WANT to succeed.

[Eko Ventures]

I agree with Bruce, share your opinion and warning about their venture. If decide they wish to move forward with it anyways, they will still be in need of your service - so give it to them.

[Scott Murdaugh]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

Here's what will happen most of the time...

You tell them your belief that the product will fail.
They will be so emotionally invested in their "brilliant" idea that they will insist you are wrong and say, "thanks but I still want to try."
Then take the money. You did your job.

Bruce,

I have total respect for you and agree with your opinions 99% of the time.

Back when I was starting out, I had a well known "guru" approach me for a project. At this time I was excited as hell about it, I was thinking "man, this is my ticket"...

So he sends the details.

I research the market, it's non-existent, but yeah, he was a believer in the idea.

Against my better judgment I did the letter... Knowing pretty well that it was going to flop.

It didn't *totally* flop, but it was a pretty lukewarm launch, probably just above break even, or made a little money but not a lot.

He came back to me, not really mad, but disappointed that I didn't do a better job convincing him it was a bad idea in the first place.

Luckily, he didn't blame the copy.

But it kind of screwed up any future work with this guy. This has been a couple of years ago now...

And these days, I kind of have the philosophy that if I don't believe I can deliver results for the client, I'm obligated to let them know, and ultimately pass on it.

I totally see your point of view too.

I just kind of think part of our job is to advise clients against putting a lot of resources into something that is pretty much doomed for failure.

They respect you for that. And when they have an idea that can take off, they'll come back to you.

I think it's best to pass on these kinds of projects and focus on delivering value. Really, all we have is our reputations. And these are the kinds of projects that can kill a reputation.

Just my experience/opinion.

I DO get where you're coming from. I just think it's best to pass on anything that you don't feel you can deliver a positive ROI for the client.

My .02.

-Scott

[Bruce Wedding]

Hi Scott,

You've got a valid point also. Here is the rest of the story...

You take the money and write the best copy you can for the crap product.
Client launches and flops.
You get the blame.
Its not the product or the market... the copy sucks.

I've been there, done that. Its not pleasant and saying, "I told you so", isn't really what the client wants to hear.

[Headfirst]

Originally Posted by JonWebContent

The problem is the site owners are trying to market a service towards a local market that has absolutely no need for this. It would be sorta like selling bikinis and targeting folks in Alaska.

Marketed properly, you can sell bikini's in Alaska. They have tanning salons and strip clubs right? People go on vacations to the tropics right?

We live in Michigan, my wife bought a bikini for our trip to Cabo, but I cannot for the life of me think of a time she ever wore it here.

You can advise your client against their plan if you are comfortable doing so, but the problem may not lie in the client. It may be you.

Done properly you can sell just about anything, you just need to combine the right message with the right market and the right media. As the consultant, its your job to put together the pieces of that puzzle.

If you're not confident in your ability to sell the product I would definitely pass on the job.

[JonWebContent]

Originally Posted by Headfirst

Marketed properly, you can sell bikini's in Alaska. They have tanning salons and strip clubs right? People go on vacations to the tropics right?

We live in Michigan, my wife bought a bikini for our trip to Cabo, but I cannot for the life of me think of a time she ever wore it here.

You can advise your client against their plan if you are comfortable doing so, but the problem may not lie in the client. It may be you.

Done properly you can sell just about anything, you just need to combine the right message with the right market and the right media. As the consultant, its your job to put together the pieces of that puzzle.

If you're not confident in your ability to sell the product I would definitely pass on the job.

I was using the bikini thing as an example.

I've been around sales and different types of businesses long enough to know what sells and what does not. I was making a point.

As far as selling bikinis exclusively to Alaskans........absolutely ZERO percent chance of making much money doing that. The population of Alaska is far too small. You could sell them at tanning salons or in shops where people would purchase vacation gear but you're still talking about a very small number of potential buyers.

In Michigan you have 10x the population AND a much warmer summer. People in Michigan actually have a use for a bikini outdoors part of the year. After weeding out the males, the women that don't tan, the females too young to wear a bikini, and the females that would rather drink from the toilet than wear a bikini, and we're probably talking about MAYBE 25,000 (?) people in the entire state you have to prospect to. Oh sure, if you can locate all 25,000 and get your word out to each and every one of them AND sell at least 1 to EACH of them........you could make a few bucks. But even something as unlikely (impossible) as that, it's not like your profits would be all that high. After all the expenses you would incur from making/distributing/marketing the product.

[Jake Gray]

If you know it will fail, there is no point in watching them fail.

Educate them.

Think about the potential leads this could lead to.

[Headfirst]

To answer your original question...

Originally Posted by JonWebContent

Give me YOUR marketing campaign to sell winter coats to the Miami market. Come on, you said it yourself........you can sell anything with the right message and media. If I wanted to start a winter coat retail shop in Miami, how would I go about getting people to buy some coats? Where's my market? What's my sales pitch? What segment of the population should I target? Skiing enthusiasts (oh yeah, there's millions of those in Miami )? Transplanted Floridians that moved down south from New York (yeah, they just love going back home in the winter )?

There are 37 Ski and Snowboard shops in Florida. That's an easy market to dominate. There are also 15 different meetup.com groups dedicated to snow skiing and snowboarding.

There are 20 private skiing clubs in the state of Florida and a few dozen facebook groups related to the topic.

The market may be small, but it does exist.

If my client wanted to sell outerwear in Florida, my suggestion would be to create an ironic brand that captures the imagination and makes consumers smile. Think Jamaican Bobsled team.

Create a great story (if you're selling winter coats in florida you better have a great story) and dominate that 37 retail store market. Create active word-of-mouth campaigns, include stickers and swag free with every purchase.

Then work with those 37 retail store owners and create a facebook promotion where any buyers of a Miami Ice Ski Jacket can post of picture of them in their heavily branded ski jacket to the facebook page and get a free t-shirt.

I would then make the product even more exclusive and ONLY allow it to be sold by retailers in florida. The goal would be to make it a must buy item for northerners on vacation in florida.

Will it be easy to sell? No. Will it sell? Quite possibly, and if one of my clients came to me with that idea I would give it a shot.

What do you think?

[Headfirst]

I'm guessing you deleted the post because you didnt want to give away your client info. Feel free to hit me up by PM if you want. There is a company in the same office complex as me that does exactly what your friend in Des Moines is doing. The trick is variety.

They're doing ok with it, I think he has 12 drivers running. Most of his marketing has the theme "You want ribs, your wife wants chinese. You can both get what you want. "

I didn't do his marketing, he was there long before I was in the office building. I think they've been in business for almost 15 years doing that. Send me a PM if you want and I'll point you towards some of their stuff if you want to see what they're doing.

[Bruce Wedding]

Originally Posted by Jake Gray

If you know it will fail, there is no point in watching them fail.

Educate them.

Think about the potential leads this could led to.

Spoken like someone whose never been in the situation. People get attached to their products. Let me tell you about one of my experiences.

Marketer has a smallish list (15,000) He says they love him to death. They are beginning to intermediate IMers. Not total noobs. He has arranged JVs with some pretty big marketers for this product. Their lists are the same crowd.

He creates a product which is a series of videos explaining how to get hosting, ftp, setup and use Wordpress, setup email accounts in CPanel, etc. I can't remember the rest but the point is, we're talking stuff for completely wet behind the ears noobs. Not guys who hang out here, have been on these lists for 6 months to a year or more.

They already know how to do all that stuff.

But there's more.

He tells me the price is $197! I'm like, "Holy $hit, dude! That's about 5X too high. Besides, your list and all your JV lists already know this stuff."

His answer?

"My buddy, <insert well known list guru name here> told me it's awesome and will sell like hotcakes. He's a millionaire and you're a $3,000 copywriter. I'll take the risk."

Now I figure it's time to teach the guy a lesson and make $3k in the process. I wrote him a kickass letter. He reads it and tells me its freaking awesome, it rocks, I'm a God. Then he mails and it bombs, around 0.2% conversion. He's on the phone telling me my copy sucks and I need to fix it. We tried a few things then he fires me and consults with a famous storytelling copywriter we all know. (He didn't realize we're good friends and were on the phone later that day)

Well, that guy tells him my copy is not the problem, that I did a good job. So he fires HIM and hires someone else. (technically he didn't pay him anything so he didn't really fire him. He just refused to see the truth)

I don't know after that. I don't think he ever saw the real problem and the product website is gone.

The windup is, I don't think he learned a thing. I'm sure it is STILL all my fault. Whatever.

So let's look at the possibilities:

A) I refuse the job and I'm $3,000 poorer. He gets someone else to write it, they pocket MY money and the results are the same.

B) I write it and make $3,000 and sleep at night because I tried to tell him but he wouldn't listen.

I'll take B any day. But I will always try to help the guy promote something that has a chance at success because it is in my best interest also.

You know the saying, You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

[247Copywriter]

Typically, I'll pass on them too, it's just not worth the aggro trying to come up with magic words that sell when you have zero belief in the product itself.

Last year I had a client also in the $3k range. Tried to advise him that the product wasn't up to scratch. He still insisted on pushing it. Took it on - turned into a nightmare. Very difficult client to work with, thought he always knew best, everything having to be explained in 3 different ways to try and drill the point home what would happen if he did this or that.

It launched and generated a decent enough mid range 5 figure sum on the first day. Client was still not satisfied, he wanted a million dollar launch day.

3 months later the whole product and website has been pulled from the market, the product owner citing other business interests. In the meanwhile everyone who bought his product was left high and dry without the goods delivered as promised.

Looking back, I wish I'd just stuck to my guns and refused to take the project on.

Lesson learned.

[JonWebContent]

Originally Posted by Headfirst

I'm guessing you deleted the post because you didnt want to give away your client info. Feel free to hit me up by PM if you want. There is a company in the same office complex as me that does exactly what your friend in Des Moines is doing. The trick is variety.

But here's the thing.....Des Moines is a different market than a lot of other cities. We're a trendy, chain restaurant kinda town with only a small portion of the population over the age of 16 that doesn't drive. I have a friend that doesn't drive and has never had a license and I haven't a clue how he gets around. Bus stops aren't on every block and that's the only public transportation (other than cabs) we've got.

His business works well in the winter because it's so cold out and so he can target people that don't want to fight the cold to get something to eat. But even with that, most restaurants here already have a delivery service. The ones that don't are restaurants like Perkin's, Village Inn, bars, and some brand new restaurants that are poorly marketed (one tasty joint I ate lunch at today that was empty! I should have hit up the owner to help him out!).

Here is what I have suggested (and tell me what you think of this):

-Target hotels
-Offer lunch deliveries to large office buildings

To be honest, that's really the only 2 markets he should be going after. But even the hotels are not easy sells because most people that visit Des Moines are on business, and therefore rent cars OR they are staying in a hotel that has an on-site restaurant.

What we are working on is getting a menu book created, but this has been an ongoing process. He wants to create menu books with 10-12 restaurants and put them up all over hotels and other places. When someone calls him for a delivery he would get a cut of the total bill. To pay for the cost of the menu books, he wants to sell advertising. Here's the problem- he's been at this for over a year trying to get restaurants. How many does he have? 2. And I've never even heard of either of them! I could lock up 3-4 restaurants EASILY within a week. He can't close a deal. He can't convey to the restaurant owners that there is NO cost to them unless he brings them business.

I've done everything I can to help, but I can't run his business for him. I'm good friends with a local journalist that runs a popular local entertainment magazine and I got them to do a nice feature story on him and his business. I doubt he made a single sale out of that. We've done other things with local media too. We have a huge annual music festival that attracts probably 15-20,000 people and he's friends with the group that puts the event on so he does all kinds of advertisement with that. Doesn't do a thing for him.

Des Moines Delivery, Des Moines Restaurants

If you click on "in the media" you can see a couple of the local media pieces we've done. He's got flyers up all around town too. The thing is, his business is actually pretty well known around here. But so was the last delivery business in town. We met with the former owner of the last company that tried doing this and he straight up told me it can't work. He said that the owner of the company that went out of business before him told him the same thing.

I'm all ears! I have put in the effort to help him because he's been one of my best friends since the 6th grade (without making a penny, by the way), but there's just no market for what he wants to do. He's got a passion for this and he doesn't want to listen when someone tells him it can't be done. I applaud him for that. But I just don't know how you can really profit in this market with the business model he's trying to run. Selling almost exclusively to local residents at their house is not working, like I tried telling him before he ever started the business.

I talked to him earlier today and he's frustrated. He keeps thinking business will pick-up, but it isn't. I'd love to hear any suggestions because I'm stumped. My dad has run 2 successful businesses for the last 30 years or so and he has said there's no way his business can succeed. I asked him for some ideas on a marketing plan and he said he's better off just taking his money to the casino and playing the slots because he would at least have a small percentage chance of making money. That's not a glowing endorsement!

[ewenmack]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

You know the saying, You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Actually you can Bruce, by sprinkling it's hay with salt!

All the best,
Ewen

[247Copywriter]

Originally Posted by ewenmack

Actually you can Bruce, by sprinkling it's hay with salt!

All the best,
Ewen

That's terrible!

[Headfirst]

Originally Posted by JonWebContent

Here is what I have suggested (and tell me what you think of this):

-Target hotels
-Offer lunch deliveries to large office buildings

Those are good ideas, if he can get his menu book in every hotel room that would drive a significant amount of business.

Unfortunately it's going to be very difficult to do. I tried to get table cards put into hotels in Detroit for a client a few years ago and ran into a ton of issues. You'll have your best luck with franchised hotels rather than corporate chain hotels.

The suggestions I would make would be to revamp his existing marketing. The current website has a mixed focus and isn't targeted towards selling anything.

7 Days a week Restaurant Delivery
Catering Services Courier Solutions

That is the biggest and most visible piece of copy on the web site and it just states what they do, not what they'll do for me.

That copy also shows users that they aren't a restaurant delivery company, they're a courier company and a catering company and they just happen to deliver food too.

If restaurant deliver is their specialty, their marketing should reflect that. What equipment do they have that will ensure my food arrives hot? Do they have happy customers? Testimonials? Referrals?

Looking at the Services section of the site I see they are even less focused offering:

• Cookies by Design
• Flowers & Gifts
• Non Food items
• Pet Supplies
• Hygiene Products
• Fire Wood
• Event Tickets
• Party Supplies

Now as a user I would be really confused. Is this a restaurant delivery company or a guy with a truck that will deliver anything?

Also, you mentioned a few times in this recent post and the earlier ones that the majority of the restaurants in Des Moines already have delivery service. With that in mind, the only tag line used repeatedly throughout the website is

Finally your favorite restaurant delivers

Based on what you've said, this isn't really a solution to a problem. And, if it were, it could be worded better.

Does he have a USP? What is his guarantee? His hook?

He needs to solve a problem. If he's doing well in the winter, its because he's solving a problem. He needs to leverage that and push that solution in the winter, but the website doesn't reflect that. The rest of the year he needs another problem to solve and an interesting way to do it.

What about: "Solving the age old dilemma of 'what's for dinner?'"

Plus, if he really wants to push the "Courier Solutions that meet your schedule" line he should really leverage that. One way I would recommend doing that is adding an online ordering component with scheduled delivery.

What if you could order dinner for the whole family before you left work and could specify within 10 minutes, exactly when you want it delivered?

So as I'm winding down my work day, I can order thai for me and the wife and a burger for our son and set it to be delivered at 6:30pm. Order online, pay online and know when it will be delivered. That's delivery on my schedule.

Finally, he needs a mobile site with order functionality. No one wants to boot up the computer to order dinner. If he had a mobile friendly site that made for easy ordering and payment, from the small screen he could boost sales significantly.

Another idea could be an SMS list, and then partner with restaurants that want premium placement to send a What's for dinner text reminding office workers and families to place their Thursday night dinner order by 5:30 for delivery by 6:30 and give an SMS members promotion every week, something like an exclusive members deal for one restaurant that is only available through the delivery service.

Sell the restaurants on the fact that the promotion will put them in front of new consumers and increase sales significantly. These should be good "groupon style" promotions that will make users jump.

And another add on idea... The "What's for dinner Des Moines" food blog. Review restaurants, focus on combo's that can only be obtained through his services. Italian + Wine + Dessert from a local pastry chef. Or Sushi + High-End Handmade Icecream. Look at the restaurants and come up with ideas.

Hold a tasting event. Put these combo's side by side. Invite SMS list members to exclusive tasting events where they can sample foods they wouldnt ordinarily get to try.


These are just observations and ideas that have come to me this morning. Don't take it as solid advice. I don't have any numbers or market research to back up these ideas. These are just that, ideas.

[John_S]

He keeps thinking business will pick-up, but it isn't. I'd love to hear any suggestions because I'm stumped.

My suggestion is to know the difference between a business person an what the word entrepreneur has degenerated into.

Used to be entrepreneur meant a smart, street wise, gutsy, business venturer. If it was a startup, you'd know every angle was covered. There were no dead-ends, because these people could turn on a dime in order to make a buck.

For example a couple of guys started a bar, and offered sandwiches. That didn't work out, but they came to realize the real business was offering specialty sandwiches. Now they had to open extra locations to handle the huge influx of customers and long wait times. Completely upended the business model.

Now entrepreneurs have no business planning, sales savvy, they don't research, don't test, and have no need to. You see, they are believers, plain and simple. And they don't enjoy being annoyed with incovenient facts.

Don't argue business with someone arguing religion. You're messing with this guy's beliefs, and he'll have none of it. If there were some way to change the business model, the guy would still have none of it.

It's not about changing the busines to succeed. It is not about business. It's about making reality conform to this guy's beliefs. That's a losing proposition.

[Alex Cohen]

Originally Posted by JonWebContent

Do you take on the project or decline it even if it's a decent paying gig?

Just depends which way your ethical compass is set.

If you take money knowing the project will fail no matter what you do, the needle is pointing South.

Alex

[John_S]

If you take money knowing the project will fail no matter what you do, the needle is pointing South.

I'd guess "south of ethical." But I would disagree -- it depends in the other guy.

There is an experiment that doesn't pan out: A carefully calculated risk, with all eyes wide open. It is ethical by any reading to take the money.

Then there's a nut roll kind of entrepreneur of the type I described. These people will whine, scream, and accuse when things go inconsistently with their internal vision of how things should happen. Results don't matter very much at all.

My suggestions is exchange the compass for a nut finding dowsing rod.

[Headfirst]

Originally Posted by John_S

I'd guess "south of ethical." But I would disagree -- it depends in the other guy.

It depends on the project though. There is a big difference between "I cant figure out how to sell this" and Doomed to fail.

Just because you can't figure it out doesnt mean that its doomed to fail. If does mean you should pass on it though.

[Alex Cohen]

A person who is so emotionally attached to his product that he won't take good advice is not seeing clearly. He's letting his passion rule the day.

Jay Abraham's Strategy of Preeminence is a good mindset to follow: put your client's needs ahead of your own.

Alex

[John_S]

It depends on the project though.

Nope. A nut can kill a project which, on the basics, seems like a solid project with a decent chance of success. Usually nuttery should show up in nutty project details, but not always.

That's why venture capitalists invest just as much in the people behind the project as the project specifics. With the right people, the details can change in order for success of the overall venture.

With the wrong people, their egos are so tied up in things happening exactly their way, they'll sooner ride the thing to failure and pass the blame to somebody else. Or engage in accounting chicanery to make it look successful just long enough to skip out and leave others holding the bag.

[JonWebContent]

Headfirst,

A lot of what you said I have been trying to convince him to implement.

The hotels have actually been quite responsive to him, fortunately. I got him stop by some hotels and mention the menu book and most of them were perfectly okay with it. In fact, they seemed quite happy about it because they would rather their guests have a local food guide in their room than to have to contact the front desk to ask where to go eat.

His main business is the restaurant delivery, but his biggest clients are actually a Cookie company and a Floral shop. He also does some courier services but he doesn't really want to do that. I think what happened was when he got started he got the idea to just deliver whatever. Groceries, restaurant food, flowers, mail......didn't pick a specific niche.

While I normally would say sticking to either restaurant delivery only or Flower delivery only, etc......in this market, I'm not sure there's enough money in just one. I think he needs to move on to being known as the "will delivery anything" guy. Catering, Flowers, Restaurants and maybe Courier services.

His web designer did a great job building the site, but he coded it in a way that even other web designers can't figure out. Fortunately, he is changing that so my friend can make content updates on his own. Once he does that, I'm going to go in and write him some content and sort of change the focus around. You're right, it's not 100% clear what his main focus is. That's why we need to make it known on the home page exactly what he does and what he delivers. If you check a keyword tool for how many times people search for the terms "des moines restaurant delivery", "des moines courier", etc., you will notice it's not very many. So most people that come across his website will know beforehand the type of business he has. For example, he puts out flyers around town targeting restaurant delivery or courier clients. So those that come to his website after seeing his flyer will know that he offers courier or restaurant delivery services.

It's a really tough sell, but he's determined to make it work. He's already put 2 years of effort into it, so he can't quit now!

[Johnny12345]

Originally Posted by JonWebContent

As far as selling bikinis exclusively to Alaskans........absolutely ZERO percent chance of making much money doing that.

Be patient. With global warming, in a few years Alaska might be beachfront property.

John

[JonWebContent]

Originally Posted by Johnny12345

Be patient. With global warming, in a few years Alaska might be beachfront property.

John

Al Gore approves of this message!

[Doran Peck]

Some additional things to consider....arrange with several food places...ice cream,cookies...allow him to carry a set number of samples...to which he gives away free
With meals he delivers. These are accompanied by coupons to that cookie place, etc.

Free samples customers.

These coupons however aren't run of the mill....they are special...and they are exclusive to his company.

Business card sized coupon cards....maybe you call them "the golden ticket".

You leverage the pristine quality of golden ticket deals with restaurants...they will covet the repeat traffic from these things.

Things like 3 for 1 punch card ( not 5 for
1 not 10 for 1 ...those don't work. Three works and it gets people in the doors very quickly.

[JonWebContent]

Good advice, Doran. I agree. He does have a set-up like that with a Cookie company and a flower company here in town. Would like to see him find a couple more like those.

[Jon Steel]

Walk away.

... because at the end of the day, if your content doesn't convert they are simply going to blame you.

And if they want to take it far enough, they can ruin your reputation out of it.

js

[CEILAC]

I'm new here so go easy on me. I'd like to say that I've also dealt with a client whose business concept was bound to fail and yes, I've done the ethical thing and after pointing out the weaknesses of the concept I bowed out. What happened? His business concept didn't change but he hired someone else to write his Web content.

[Globy]

I would pass.
Taking such a project could not lead to anything good. Bad reputation from you own client is the worse thing.

I would be open with him. Hard but best option in my opinion.

Kind regards