STOP posting asking for critiques and do this instead....

[davemiz]

There are post after post in here asking for "critiques" and honestly, its a waste of your time, the time of ppl reading it ...and these awesome writers here.

jesus.... stop asking for critiques and F'n split test your damn stuff.

opinions don't mean jack SH!T.

Test your stuff FIRST, then come here asking for help.

[Bruce Wedding]

You can split test a turd and a vomit pile, Dave. The results will be the same. There are elements which are required in good copy. Each one not present weakens the copy. You don't need a test to confirm. If crits were a waste of time, the greatest copywriters would not critique their copy cubs.

To effectively split test requires intimate knowledge of copywriting.

PS: you will find out if a turd is better than a vomit pile but so what?

[Tina Golden]

I don't know how much the requesters get out of it, nor the copywriters, but I can say that as a bystander, I get a LOT out of it. I pick up some great insights from reading what the real copywriters have to say, particularly the ones who explain why they are saying it.

Tina

[Alan Petersen]

If those awesome writers don't want to waste their time they don't have to read the post or the headline/copy so I don't see how it's a waste of their time?

You can tell it's a critique usually right from the subject title of the thread so it's easy to just not click and waste your time.

Although I haven't requested a critique, I can see the value in it. Not being a copywriter, I appreciate getting the in-put of copywriters before going out and testing it, etc. As Bruce pointed out, it could save the person a lot of headaches/frustration. Nothing wrong in asking for help.

[Collette]

While a part of me heartily agrees with you, Dave, another part of me views the stuff you refer to (and we all know which ones they are) as a sort of public service.

If the writers tested their stuff before asking for a critique, they'd mostly lose a sh$tload of cash. On the other hand, if they care to listen, finding out the copy will sink like a concrete brick in quicksand can save them time and money.

Sadly, most seem to only want to hear advice along the lines of, "Use a blue background", or "Make your headline bigger", when the truth is, "Your copy blows huge, stinkin' chunkies. Take it out back and put it out of it's misery. Now."

Usually, I just hope someone reading will gain some benefit, even when the critique poster obviously doesn't get it.

[Ross James]

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

I don't know how much the requesters get out of it, nor the copywriters, but I can say that as a bystander, I get a LOT out of it. I pick up some great insights from reading what the real copywriters have to say, particularly the ones who explain why they are saying it.

Tina

Yeah I feel the same way, for instance the most recent crit I observed was of Kevin Rogers and it was probably the best i've seen on here, in my time anyways.

Ross

[Kevin Rogers]

The crits, while the requesters can cause frustration by merely seeking free headlines -- or just disappearing altogether, are also a great way for new copywriters to test their knowledge.

I owe a huge debt to all those marketers who allowed me to crit them when I was starting out... and the writers who put me in check when I was talkin' out of my arse. Like any well run charity, the right parties get the most from it.

[The Copy Nazi]

Can yous guys help me with my site please? I'm trying to take on Google. Search The Internet | http://www.nmcelite.com/ | www.nmcelite.com

Am I heading in the right direction? Should I change the font? What about the background color?

p.s. don't forget to click on the sheila at the bottom right of the page. That's a work of art right there. Kevin Rogers wrote it I think. 'fess up Kev - that's got your signature all over it.

Yeah that guy's making $40k a month. On Adsense. Apparently his name is Nick Montano so just ignore the "Abids" in the header. He was obviously confused that day.

"Yes Nick aka Abid - let me in to your fraudulent scheme!"

Update: I Googled "Abids Adsense Treasure" and found a thread on a Google Adsense Forum. Apparently Mister Abid from India was flogging the template for $20. Scammed a whole bunch of people and did a runner to The Phillipines.

[Flareman]

I think thats the whole point of having a forum - to exchange ideas, share information, get support and help. We give and take sometimes. And to be honest, I think the comments and suggestions from all the copywriters here have good business spin off effect as well. Its a good platform to demonstrate how good the copywriter is by offering his suggestions, analyses and ideas.

Personally, a big part of how I decided on my copywriter was based on his contributions and analyses of the critique requests here. And through that, I know I made a good decision.

[myeanne]

Well for me, asking opinion of others is just a normal thing.

There are some people who think they did what's best but they also wanted to hear what can other person say about it.

[davemiz]

how do you know what will work and what wont?

you dont.

and dont give me 'cuz i'm a copywriter'.... no copywriter on the planet can tell me for a fact what will work and what wont... until they test the offer with the traffic source.

anyone who says otherwise is full of it.

critiques are opinions.... and last time i checked, opinions don't mean jack... you need to split test... data is the only thing that matters.

and you never know what will work or what doesnt.

people asking for opinions obviously don't 'get it'.

what works for 1 person will 100% not always work for someone else, there are too many other factors in play.

Funny... the most successful marketers i know never ask for critiques, they just split test everything possible and see what works.

[Kay King]

Sadly, most seem to only want to hear advice along the lines of, "Use a blue background", or "Make your headline bigger", when the truth is, "Your copy blows huge, stinkin' chunkies. Take it out back and put it out of it's misery. Now."

Just think - if all those people didn't ask for help....some people wouldn't have a place to point out how they are too important to answer the ingrates.

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by davemiz

how do you know what will work and what wont?

you dont.

and dont give me 'cuz i'm a copywriter'.... no copywriter on the planet can tell me for a fact what will work and what wont... until they test the offer with the traffic source.

anyone who says otherwise is full of it.

critiques are opinions.... and last time i checked, opinions don't mean jack... you need to split test... data is the only thing that matters.

and you never know what will work or what doesnt.

people asking for opinions obviously don't 'get it'.

what works for 1 person will 100% not always work for someone else, there are too many other factors in play.

Funny... the most successful marketers i know never ask for critiques, they just split test everything possible and see what works.

If all it took was testing, I'd be out of a job.

No doubt, testing is super-important... no arguments there.

But by the same token, most good copywriters have a fair idea of what will or won't work. It's why people pay us to write copy.

-Daniel

[Steve The Copywriter]

Wouldn't it help if we had a sub category purely for critiques.

Then those that wanted to do them - could.

And those that didn't could just stay on the main forum.

[davemiz]

kay.... haha... of course... you get some 'copywriters' with a massively overblown egos (not naming names but a few are in warriors)... they wrote something that their client blew up.... and they wanna think its all cuz of them.... funny.

Daniel, yes, thats what it takes... testing.

here's the devils advocate for ya.... if you (or any copywriter) is that good, why would you work for someone else and make them money? why wouldn't you do your own thing since you're supposed to be able to write stuff that makes money.

its like the stock broker who has all these great picks but never puts his own money into them.... that should tell ya something about him.

Ppl want you to believe you need all this other bs.... its utter nonsense.

i know *several* ppl who are making 7 figures a month.... who have never been to an IM event, forum, bought any products, hired any copywriters... or any of this bs.

All they do is test their offer, ads and traffic sources.

thats all there is to it.

sounds simple, but NOT easy.

[Ross James]

Originally Posted by davemiz

i know *several* ppl who are making 7 figures a month.... who have never been to an IM event, forum, bought any products, hired any copywriters... or any of this bs.

This is interesting, I'd really like to hear more about these people you speak of...did someone put a gun to their head and say never go online, hire a copywriter or buy a product? ****, that's impressive, I think there is a lot to gain on these forums...well...carry on... don't mean to jack the hate thread.

-Ross

[Nick Brighton]

Originally Posted by Kay King

Just think - if all those people didn't ask for help....some people wouldn't have a place to point out how they are too important to answer the ingrates.

Hahahaha. Or too busy!

[Bruce Wedding]

OK Dave, your unrivalled debating skills convinced me. How can we top, "I know a Guy..."?

Of course last week, you bragged about knowing Madison Ave copywriters making multiple six-figures. I wonder if they know you think their profession is a fraud.

Anyway, we better let Makepeace, Carlton, Bencivenga, Halbert, and Fortin know their copywriting products are crap. They need to start selling test courses because there is no value in copywriting. And lets pull Schwartz, Ogilvy, Sugarman and Whitman's books off the shelves lest everyone think they're useful for anything but toilet paper.

[Oxbloom]

Here's what I'd like to see you do to prove your point, Dave.

Take the top selling e-business affiliate product on clickbank. I have no idea what it is, and don't want to promote it by accident.

I have for you, below, two sales pitches.

*****

(Pitch #1)

Hey buttbreath, buy this product. Now. I need the cash.

*insert affiliate link*




(Pitch #2)

X

*insert affiliate link*


******

That second one, the letter X is the whole pitch. Sorry...didn't know enough copywritin' to do any better. But that's okay, because the whole game is just testing, right? No need for any high-fallutin' professional writer BS.

So take those as your starting point, and split test them. Pick the winner, and then tweak one element at a time, and split test those. Maybe bold the "X" the second go around. Maybe change it to a Q. (Not both, of course, or you're fouling the integrity of the test.)

Using this rigorous and scientific testing methodology, let me know how long it takes you to get to something that converts as well as the sales pitch the clickbank product is currently rolling out. If you can do it in this lifetime, I'll buy you a house.

Or, alternatively, you might consider that maybe there's value to considering your starting point pretty carefully before you worry about testing, or your testing becomes nothing but a colossal waste of time, energy, and money.

Testing is an important part of the game, but it's hardly the only one, and it's hardly the starting point.

[BrianMcLeod]

Funniest thing about this thread is... I think every actually AGREES.

Of course Dave's right - opining (even edumacated) is still guessing...

...until the numbers come in.

And of course, others are right when they say copywriters are paid
to be "right" more than they're "wrong".

And that running two bombs against each other is a zero sum game.

I think we may be talking past each other a little and basically in
agreement about both sides of the conversation.

Who'd argue that **** design is better than good design?

Who'd argue that **** copy is better than good copy?

Nobody... well, wait. This IS the WF, so strike that...
SOMEBODY will argue with it.

: )

B

[davemiz]

lol.... nice one brian.... yes, everything is important.

i swear i feel like i'm talking to a chick.

i went here:

Miami Ad School | Top Advertising Schools - Study Advertising in USA/Europe - Best Portfolio schools

google it bruce. I dont need to brag who i know or whatnot... just stating facts bro.

and don't hate.

Yes, some of my friends would smoke many online writers... thats why they get paid big money and work on big brands campaigns.

As for the "twisting"...

You are saying the products are rubbish, not me buddy, those words *never* came outta my mouth.... this is a copywriting forum, i kinda expected ppl to know how to read. :-)

Fortins been a friend for years.... and has done his own stuff ever since i've known him. (he did a product with simon from get response YEARS ago).

And he will be one of the first to tell you that testing is absolutely CRITICAL with online marketing.

clayton sells his own stuff. and last i checked he gets a cut of the action. (smart dude, he knows his stuff).

do you NEED copywriting courses to be successful?

No.

there's a very highly paid writer for agora who's read ONE writing book. (ryan fletcher?)

guess he sucks too?

And you can't sit there and compare writers who work for an ad agency, on salary to the writers i was referring to.... you're comparing apples to oranges.... nice try.

-------

lol... oxbloom, i've got better things to do with my time bro.

but i guarantee you with enough testing i would smoke the other page. you'd have to be a moron not to be able to.

you're assuming you know what will work and what wont.

how do you know if a headline is going to double conversions or not? or any other element?

I just did a test and changed 1 word in my headline and bumped up conversions 15% on a HEAVILY tested page.

i'll leave you with this.... at ebens atltitude event.... he asked "who here is making 6 figures a year..."

almost everyone stood.

he then asked... "who here is making 6 figures and testing" .... a few sat down.

he kept going....

the people in the room who were making the most money (7 figures a month, there were a handful) all of them were doing the most testing (as in testing daily).

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by davemiz

Funny... the most successful marketers i know never ask for critiques, they just split test everything possible and see what works.

Why is that "funny"? Don't you appreciate that there are many people here who aren't yet "the most successful marketers", Dave?

Isn't that part of what a forum like this is here for?

Some people need some help deciding what to split test, you know? (Well, obviously you don't know) ...

[Ross James]

Hi Alexa,

Dave has his grumpy days in between talking about google optimizer and split-testing to oblivion.

He picked on me once for how little money I make online. It's ok I never let my EGO hold me back, it's more fun watching other people's grow. That's what is really "Funny".

I'm glad at least he is finding humor in this thread.

Lol

[Oxbloom]

Originally Posted by davemiz

lol... oxbloom, i've got better things to do with my time bro.

but i guarantee you with enough testing i would smoke the other page. you'd have to be a moron not to be able to.

you're assuming you know what will work and what wont.

how do you know if a headline is going to double conversions or not? or any other element?

I just did a test and changed 1 word in my headline and bumped up conversions 15% on a HEAVILY tested page.

Of course you've got better things to do with your time, because the challenge I gave you would be impossible. With "enough testing", naturally, you would eventually have a letter that smokes the original.

But that's very much like saying that with enough raindrops, eventually Mt. Everest will be the size of a pebble.

It would be the work of infinite lifetimes, unless you know WHAT to test, and have some idea what to test AGAINST.

You say I'm making unfounded assumptions, but I'm not. You're the one making 100% of the unfounded assumptions in this thread.

And the big reason for it, is that you're being completely disingenuous.

You already HAVE some idea what might work, and what might not. That's how you choose things TO test.

If you decide to split test your headlines, do you choose a new headline that has some relevance to your market, or do you choose an entirely random string of letters and numbers with no meaning whatsoever?

If you decide to split test your background, do you choose a new color, or do you choose an image of child pornography?

Naturally, the answers in both cases seem obvious. And you HAVE to rule out the obviously wrong, because otherwise, there are literally infinite variables to check, only a tiny fraction of which are even remotely sensible.

But then, that's the point. So many people come in here looking for suggestions with pitches that ARE clearly and obviously wrong. And some of us like to set them on a more helpful path.

You ask me how I know what kind of headline is likely to perform best? Because I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. People who already HAVE split tested to hell and back. So I can rule out all KINDS of things before I get started, that will save me (and those I help) a lot of time, a lot of money, and a lot of headache.

You do the same, or you'd be broke.

The reason a lot of people come in here and ask for critiques, is that they HAVEN'T done the background work. They AREN'T standing on the shoulders of giants. And as a result, they may as well be spewing out random strings of letters and numbers.

And if they come here and get a critique, or a headline suggestion, or anything even remotely helpful, then they suddenly have something to test against...at which point they almost invariably discover that their test results have improved, and they can move forward from there.

When you keep jumping in with condescending "LOLz" and "you just don't get its", you're doing a lot more harm than good.

In terms of helping people out on here, you're a one trick pony. And your trick isn't particularly helpful.

I sincerely believe you mean well. And I sincerely believe that you simply refuse to acknowledge the weight that experience and understanding of the methods of persuasion plays in helping you decide what to split test time after time.

I sincerely believe all this because I see no reason to doubt your income claims.

But if, as you seem intent on saying, you use no information at all and simply start with utterly random gibberings every time you want to sell something...and then choose other random gibberings each time to test against...then your response rate will never rise above zero with any offer, ever.

In which case, you're working with only one tool in your toolbox, and your income claims would be completely bogus.

No skin off my nose either way, but I hate to see you giving out so much bad information (or at least, dangerously incomplete information) to people here who are legitimately seeking help. Especially when my senses tell me you probably know better.

[Ken_Caudill]

Testing cuts two ways. If you have a converting site, tinkering with it will most likely lose you as much money as it makes.

No one ever talks about the losses inherent in testing.

[davemiz]

lol.... ross.... you're still good in my book... beers on me @ the next event :-)

Alexa, lol... flawed statement.... you dont need to find out what to test. Thats makes no sense... you gotta test EVERYTHING.

Someone who thinks like that, doesn't get it.

THAT is the point I've been trying to make.

do you think ppl just pop outta the womb and are great marketers? no, they've kept testing over and over and over... testing everything.

thats how they've become "the most successful marketers" (key word, become).

are you sure ken? every time i test, i keep making more...

[Ross James]

Originally Posted by davemiz

lol.... ross.... you're still good in my book... beers on me @ the next event :-)

Hey well you know, then I could really annoy the crap outta ya. That's OK isn't that what events are for?

[davemiz]

haha... funny... its all good... learning and making new friends is always cool :-)

[Ken_Caudill]

Originally Posted by davemiz

are you sure ken? every time i test, i keep making more...

Every change you make makes more money?

I'm in awe.

[Scott Murdaugh]

Alexa, lol... flawed statement.... you dont need to find out what to test. Thats makes no sense... you gotta test EVERYTHING.

Someone who thinks like that, doesn't get it.

I'll stay out of this drama...

I just want to point out that Alexa is definitely someone who "get's it"... She's as sharp as they come.

-Scott

P.S. There IS a lot of value in a good critique. No time for arguing, but I respectfully disagree with your OP.

[davemiz]

ken, i'm doing multivar tests with hundreds of options at a time.... why is that surprising?

yeah a LOT of stuff doesnt work but a few do... pretty much every single round.

Theres a reason you've seen my squeeze pages ripped off everywhere online.

scott i respect your comments, not 'attacking' her or anyone.... i'm sure she gets it.... but based on her comments i dont agree. you dont need to be told what things to test... you're supposed to test everything.

direct response ppl know this.

[The Copy Nazi]

"Test everything" Dave? Nope. Waste of time. Bruce is right on the money here when he says

To effectively split test requires intimate knowledge of copywriting

But I'd add to it - "an intimate knowledge of copywriting AND marketing". And some sections of the page are obviously in need of testing more so than others. The headline is probably the most important part - even if the rest of the page is a dog. If the headline "resonates" - rings the readers bells, then they're more likely to be forgiving of a lousy layout/small font/glaring background - all the rest of it. Testing the other stuff comes later. Comes under "tweaking" - getting an extra bit of juice out of the page.

Oxbloom's post above is also on the money.

So yeah Dude - you appear to know your stuff but I don't agree with "Test your stuff first then come here asking for help". In fact I'd argue that it should be the other way round.

[MikeHumphreys]

It's interesting to me to read the range of responses in this thread.

I can pretty much agree with each point that has been made.

Yes, testing is very important. Probably 90% of online marketers I've met don't do it which is still an improvement over the brick and mortar folks. Probably 95-98% of them don't test their marketing at all which is a big reason why you see so much bad ads and marketing in the offline world.

Copywriting is just as important. You can split test two bad headlines against each other until the cows come home. Chances are, you'll still see little or no improvement.

If you have some copywriting chops and can write a very good headline and put it against those bad headlines, then yeah... you should be able to "predict" it will win.

Testing takes time.

Depending on the niche, type of testing, and amount of traffic you can drive... it could take you weeks or months to get testing results that are statisically confident.

This is especially true if the squeeze page or salesletter is pulling almost no reponse rate.

Fixing the holes in a salesletter can be a lot faster to do.

Even better, fixing the holes BEFORE you test can mean you will have a better baseline to bump your conversion rates from.

Anyways, that's my opinion so take it as such.

Take care,

Mike

[Bruce Wedding]

Originally Posted by Metronicity

The headline is probably the most important part.

I'd put the headline at number 2. Unless it does what I say is number one - change the appeal.

The appeal is the most important thing to test. It has the greatest possibility to have a large effect.

[Jag82]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

It's interesting to me to read the range of responses in this thread.

I can pretty agree with each point that has been made.

Yes, testing is very important. Probably 90% of online marketers I've met don't do it which is still an improvement over the brick and mortar folks. Probably 95-98% of them don't test their marketing at all which is a big reason why you see so much bad ads and marketing in the offline world.

Copywriting is just as important. You can split test two bad headlines against each other until the cows come home. Chances are, you'll still see little or no improvement.

At last! A well-balanced response.

Agree completely with you, Mike.

A good ad starts with a good sales copy.

Testing and optimizing it will take the response
rate to a higher level.

Just testing blindly on everything and anything
with a bad copy...is only gonna waste unnecessary
time, money and effort.

- Jag

[ewenmack]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

The appeal is the most important thing to test. It has the greatest possibility to have a large effect.

John Caples would be pleased his teachings are remembered.

Best,
Ewen

[Collette]

Originally Posted by Jag82

...
A good ad starts with a good sales copy.

A better ad starts with a good product. And how often have we seen seriously flawed product ideas presented in requests for critiques? I've lost count...

Originally Posted by Jag82

Just testing blindly on everything and anything
with a bad copy...is only gonna waste unnecessary
time, money and effort.

- Jag

Word. If people don't have enough knowledge to put together a half-way decent ad or sales copy, they are extremely unlikely to know how to test. I've see posts where people come on and say, "I tested and changed the header graphic, the headline and my photo. Oh - and I added testimonials. That really made a difference!"

In fact, they have no idea WHAT made the difference, because they're just throwing sh*t against the wall and hoping something sticks. And the majority of people who post asking for critiques wouldn't even begn to know how to set up a basic A/B, much less a proper testing series. Hell, I bet most people still don't have basic analytics on their pages.

Testing crap isn't going to give you anything but the same stinkin' results. And testing crap through PPC will send you to the poorhouse at the speed of a mouse click.

[Collette]

Originally Posted by davemiz

ken, i'm doing multivar tests with hundreds of options at a time....

Right there... you lost half the people reading that comment. They have no idea what you mean by "multivar".

Gotta have a baseline of knowledge to have a prayer of succeeding.

[Ross James]

Yeah, it sounded like a wordpress plugin to me lol. not that i'm doubting that it's killer stuff, i'm just unaware.

Ross

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Ross James

Yeah, it sounded like a wordpress plugin to me lol. not that i'm doubting that it's killer stuff, i'm just unaware.

Ross

Dave's just trying to show you that he's up on the jargon. He's talking about "multivariate testing" - just a fancy way of saying "test all the components of a webpage/site". Multivariate testing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[davemiz]

lol.... multivariant testing has been around for a while... nothing new people.

It's mindboggling to hear some of this stuff. If this is your business, if this is how you provide for your family, shouldn't you know as much as possible?

Not knowing that sorta stuff is like playing poker but not knowing the rules.

but hey, i'm a marketing geek.

funny... i just read another thread.... hey bruce wedding... lol forgot about posting this eh?

Of course, there's a lesson right there. If people would take a break from chasing the latest GRQ crap and learn some marketing skills, they'd be a lot better off.

And we'd stop getting all these critique requests for crap sales pages written by people who haven't bothered to read the excellent advice in the sticky notes here.

I won't hold my breath.

c'mon man... you can't rip on me and be posting this.... lol..... :-)

[RickDuris]

Hi Dave,

Now that you've revealed "the secret sauce" to testing everything, would you do us all a small but very helpful favor?

While I have been trained in the Taguchi Method, many I'm sure here do not know the mindset, strategy, or technology required when testing in this manner.

I'm not asking for a seminar or thesis. Just a bit of insight in HOW you personally "test everything."

Because you have to admit, testing everything does seem rather overwhelming.

How do *YOU* do it, Dave? You don't have to be specific, but specifics would be helpful.

I would be so curious because clearly you've achieved success in your testing efforts.

- Rick Duris

PS: This is a sincere request. I personally want to learn.

PPS: Personally, I was trained a few years ago by David Bullock. I've used Verster, Split Test Accelerator and Omniture. I'm told Google's free website optimizer allows for multivariable testing but have not used it. I'm also aware Mike Humphreys has a similar testing tool which he is proud of and continues to enhance.

[davemiz]

hey rick, yeah... no worries.... the taguchi stuff was pretty wild when it came out back in the day.... i use website optimizer multivariant and a/b. (simple to use and its free)

I'll give you a squeeze page for example....

i start by testing design first using a/b.

I'll test 20-30 different design styles pretty much with the same copy to see which design is getting best conversions.

i wont ask for opinions... i'll design every type of page i can think of and see what happens. As i learned from kennedy, reese and eben... make decisions based on DATA, not opinions.

then, when i find the winner.... then i start the multivariant.

I'll start testing 20-50 headlines, as many as i can think of, and every other variable on the page. (copy, the form text, the form itself, the form button, any graphics).

FYI (side note) When I was in advertising school they'd make the copywriters write 100-200 headlines per ad.

Rick, i design the pages knowing that i will be testing, so i'm designing with the end in mind which is important when you're designing for response because you dont wanna design something thats a pain in the rear end to setup testing for. (something a lotta newbies do).

then i'll crank up the traffic and see what happens.

Sometimes it takes forever for the test to finish. I'm running one right now and its been running since... nov 17th, 2010. The winner right now is showing a 103% improvement on a *heavily* tested page.

And the changes are so stupid you'd laugh if i told you what they were.

but its taking forever.

there's no way on earth you could put in that much stuff and not see any improvement.

Not to brag, but there's a reason my squeeze pages are ripped off everywhere.... i did the 2 arrow one for PLF 2.0, for kerns mass control... amish's magic bullet.... and all the "WARNING" ones you've seen god knows how many people rip from me.

hope that helps.

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by davemiz

lol.... multivariant testing has been around for a while... nothing new people.... and if you are serious bout this stuff, shouldn't you know wtf is going on?

not knowing that sorta stuff is like playing poker but not knowing the rules... which is just dumb.

funny... i just read another thread.... hey bruce wedding... forgot about posting this eh?



if you wanna rip on someone, you gotta know what else you're posting bro. :-)

You're coming across as one of those people who just like to "bignote" themselves by not "sharing the knowledge" but desperately trying to show that they "have the knowledge" by sprouting a bunch of jargon - all the time forgetting that at one stage they knew Sweet Fanny Adams.

Which really...is just coming from a base of insecurity and is not helping anyone.

I could start mouthing off radio terms and more than likely you wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about. So what? But if I started dropping specific terms I would explain what they meant - rather than trying to "baffle you with bullsh*t".

So cut the crap will you. Its getting tiresome. And childish. We're all here to learn from each other - not to thump our chests.

[RickDuris]

Originally Posted by davemiz

hey rick, yeah... no worries.... the taguchi stuff was pretty wild when it came out back in the day.... i use website optimizer multivariant and a/b. (simple to use and its free)

I'll give you a squeeze page for example....

i start by testing design first using a/b.

I'll test 20-30 different design styles pretty much with the same copy to see which design is getting best conversions.

i wont ask for opinions... i'll design every type of page i can think of and see what happens. As i learned from kennedy, reese and eben... make decisions based on DATA, not opinions.

then, when i find the winner.... then i start the multivariant.

I'll start testing 20-50 headlines, as many as i can think of, and every other variable on the page. (copy, the form text, the form itself, the form button, any graphics).

FYI (side note) When I was in advertising school they'd make the copywriters write 100-200 headlines per ad.

Rick, i design the pages knowing that i will be testing, so i'm designing with the end in mind which is important when you're designing for response because you dont wanna design something thats a pain in the rear end to setup testing for. (something a lotta newbies do).

then i'll crank up the traffic and see what happens.

Sometimes it takes forever for the test to finish. I'm running one right now and its been running since... nov 17th, 2010. The winner right now is showing a 103% improvement on a *heavily* tested page.

And the changes are so stupid you'd laugh if i told you what they were.

but its taking forever.

there's no way on earth you could put in that much stuff and not see any improvement.

Not to brag, but there's a reason my squeeze pages are ripped off everywhere.... i did the 2 arrow one for PLF 2.0, for kerns mass control... amish's magic bullet.... and all the "WARNING" ones you've seen god knows how many people rip from me.

hope that helps.

Thank you. This was very helpful. I am going to study this.

(Occassionally, my Partners will share with me insights from their efforts via email. I call them "keepers". Your post is a "keeper.")

Allow me to ask you a few questions:

1. In your testing overall, would you say that the graphics design has more or less of an impact on conversion than the copy?

(The jury is still out for me, but I would appreciate your opinion. By your post it seems the graphics design elements are your front line of testing.)

2. The way I was trained was we should test wide variations initially. And I've been doing that strategically. It sounds like you just throw stuff against the wall and see if any of it sticks. Do you have a strategy for knowing what to test--meaning variations within a specific variable? At least initially?

3. Here's the big question: Sometimes I am a part of product launches, (as opposed to evergreen promotions. Obviously evergreen promotions can be continually optimized.)

But for one-time product launches how are you testing before the actual product launch?

In my experience, I am practically required to "hit it out of the park" without testing, copy-wise. Nobody wants several different versions of the video/script, nobody has the time for daily analysis and nobody wants to pay for 20 different versions of the overall graphics design. Nobody cares about optimally sequencing the autoresponder series.

Can you share your experience? If you can't, I'll understand.

Thanks in advance,

- Rick Duris

PS: With the folks I work with, maybe I've got a different set of circumstances, but they do not have the patience for testing. They're already thinking of the next product launch.

For instance, I've heard of folks doing "internal launches." Launching to their own lists first, is that one of the places you get your data from?

[Ken_Caudill]

Originally Posted by Collette

Right there... you lost half the people reading that comment. They have no idea what you mean by "multivar".

Gotta have a baseline of knowledge to have a prayer of succeeding.

I'd be surprised if anyone on this forum did not know what multi-variate testing is..

[Bruce Wedding]

Originally Posted by davemiz

funny... i just read another thread.... hey bruce wedding... lol forgot about posting this eh?
...
c'mon man... you can't rip on me and be posting this.... lol..... :-)

Dave, I'm the guy that wrote the massive thread about why I seldom do critiques. The thing is, you and I agree for the most part. I understand that testing is the only way to improve a GOOD sales letter. Where we seem to disagree is the starting point. I think you start with good copy, written by a person schooled in the art. You seem to think it doesn't matter.

But speaking of hypocrisy

Aren't these your sites?
Response Boosting Design Tricks - Make Your Website Sell by Dave Mizrachi
Make My Website Sell || Response boosting design tricks you can immediately impliment, with ease, to make your website sell more.

How can you possibly claim to increase conversions when you have no idea what works until you test?

[sethczerepak]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

You can split test a turd and a vomit pile, Dave. The results will be the same. There are elements which are required in good copy. Each one not present weakens the copy. You don't need a test to confirm. If crits were a waste of time, the greatest copywriters would not critique their copy cubs.

To effectively split test requires intimate knowledge of copywriting.

PS: you will find out if a turd is better than a vomit pile but so what?

Thanks Bruce, I just got my first good laugh of the day. Nice.

This is so true, and you can even polish the turd to a nice shine, but it's still a turd.

However, I think I know what the original poster is getting at...

...stop being lazy and asking us to tell you how to write copy...learn for yourself. There are so many free resources out there. Get a hold of them (see my sig), study them and apply them.

You can't hire someone else to do your push ups for you.

Start doing your own damn push ups...do them till you vomit if you have to. Stop trying to polish a turd...and stop trying to make us into unpaid consultants. If you want the help of a good copywriter, pay one dammit. If you want to "save money" by doing it yourself, then go all out and get good at it.

PS: If it's between the vomit and the turd, I'd take the turd. My dog has proven to me that the vomit is a LOT harder to clean up.

[Collette]

Originally Posted by davemiz

lol.... multivariant testing has been around for a while... nothing new people.

It's mindboggling to hear some of this stuff. If this is your business, if this is how you provide for your family, shouldn't you know as much as possible?

Not knowing that sorta stuff is like playing poker but not knowing the rules.

but hey, i'm a marketing geek.

Lots of folks here either just starting out, trying to learn, or doing IM as a P/T thing after their day jobs. Some of these people are wannabe pro copywriters; others are trying to learn enough to put up a half-way decent letter for their first product or affiliate page.

They're NOT making a full-time living from it, and to them, a LOT of what is talked about here is "new". And they're not all "marketing geeks" (*although, if they're charging $$ for their copywriting services, they damn well should be marketing geeks)

Just look at the # of people cruising this forum, vs the # of people who post. Major discrepancy.

There's a reason for that.

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

I'd be surprised if anyone on this forum did not know what multi-variate testing is..

Your bar for surprise is set low, my friend. Get ready for shock and awe.

Originally Posted by sethczerepak

...stop being lazy and asking us to tell you how to write copy...learn for yourself. There are so many free resources out there. Get a hold of them (see my sig), study them and apply them.

You can't hire someone else to do your push ups for you.

Start doing your own damn push ups...do them till you vomit if you have to. Stop trying to polish a turd...and stop trying to make us into unpaid consultants. If you want the help of a good copywriter, pay one dammit. If you want to "save money" by doing it yourself, then go all out and get good at it.

...

Oh, SO heartily endorsed. Except: You can hire someone to do your push ups for you. You just have to be prepared to pay their asking price.

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

Dave, I'm the guy that wrote the massive thread about why I seldom do critiques. The thing is, you and I agree for the most part. I understand that testing is the only way to improve a GOOD sales letter. Where we seem to disagree is the starting point. I think you start with good copy, written by a person schooled in the art. You seem to think it doesn't matter.

But speaking of hypocrisy

Aren't these your sites?
Response Boosting Design Tricks - Make Your Website Sell by Dave Mizrachi
Make My Website Sell || Response boosting design tricks you can immediately impliment, with ease, to make your website sell more.

How can you possibly claim to increase conversions when you have no idea what works until you test?

From one of the sites -

On the 15th March 2006, we held a special "no holds barred" 2 hour teleseminar in which Dave and special mystery guest and expert copy righter Michel Fortin spilled their guts.

And the head on the second one -

"Discover How to Dramatically Send Your Sales
and Conversion Rates Soaring Through the Roof (WITHOUT Writing a Single Sentance!)"

That page is riddled with spelling and grammar mistakes. Here's another -
“Design That Compliments
The Sales Process”


One word: spellcheck.