Are we seeing the end of blind copy?

[Nick Brighton]

I don't know how many of you guys have been involved in the blind copy craze of late (whether you advised against it or not) but the question is...

Do you think it's on its last legs?

I see a lot of complaints in the forums, and I know refund rates are high, but do you think this thing has life in it yet?

I mean, the sad thing is, it's a numbers game for certain CB gooberoos. Maybe the numbers are just too good to ignore, despite the negative aspects of it all.

Would you write blind copy if the client asked for it? Or would you advise them to try a different approach?

[MikeHumphreys]

Nick,

The problem isn't blind copy.

It's the quality of the product being sold not being up to par.

And if the product doesn't work as advertised then their customers are definitely going to get upset and probably ask for a refund.

The product owner has the responsibility of reading the salesletter that their copywriter wrote and point out any inaccuracies in the description. The copywriter might be someone they hired or they may have written the copy themselves.

Blind copy has been around since the early 1900's because it works. It's going to be around for another 100 years or more because it will continue to work.

I will continue to use blind copy when and where I feel its appropriate in the copy I write.

Again, the problem isn't blind copy.

Hope that helps,

Mike

[Nick Brighton]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Nick,

The problem isn't blind copy.

It's the quality of the product being sold not being up to par.

And if the product doesn't work as advertised then their customers are definitely going to get upset and probably ask for a refund.

The product owner has the responsibility of reading the salesletter that their copywriter wrote and point out any inaccuracies in the description. The copywriter might be someone they hired or they may have written the copy themselves.

Blind copy has been around since the early 1900's because it works. It's going to be around for another 100 years or more because it will continue to work.

I will continue to use blind copy when and where I feel its appropriate in the copy I write.

Again, the problem isn't blind copy.

Hope that helps,

Mike

I think I left out a critical detail - I'm talking about the total blind copy, not the usual blindness of an ad.

I'm talking about copy that doesn't say what it really is, only what it will do for you.

You must have seen this stuff recently, right?

And that's the problem - the prospect takes a punt, not knowing what he's gonna get, but fixated on the potential benefits alone.

And that's where the refunds come in. Sure, it doesn't help if the product is crap, but sometimes people refund when the product is nothing like they expected.

In the past year, this "total blind" copy has taken over a lot of Clickbank launches, particularly the push button traffic products.

[Alex Cohen]

Blind copy has been around since the early 1900's because it works. It's going to be around for another 100 years or more because it will continue to work.

I'm talking about copy that doesn't say what it really is, only what it will do for you.

Mike's statement still applies. It's a human nature thing. Unless human nature changes (and it won't), blind copy will continue to work.

Alex

[OnlineMasterMind]

Originally Posted by Nick Brighton

I don't know how many of you guys have been involved in the blind copy craze of late (whether you advised against it or not) but the question is...

Do you think it's on its last legs?

I see a lot of complaints in the forums, and I know refund rates are high, but do you think this thing has life in it yet?

I mean, the sad thing is, it's a numbers game for certain CB gooberoos. Maybe the numbers are just too good to ignore, despite the negative aspects of it all.

Would you write blind copy if the client asked for it? Or would you advise them to try a different approach?

Yeah blind copy is so bad... wah wah wah

I mean... when you read a post like this... you can't help but wonder:

Are you legitimately asking? Or are you trying to start an online water cooler complaining session?

I ask because I think ANYONE with any kind of marketing common sense understands blind copy isn't going anywhere...

Not only does it work great for merchants... but consumers LOVE it.

Why do you think they voluntarily hand over the money?

And please don't respond with something about lies, or any other nonsense...

That has NOTHING to do with blind copy.

[Nick Brighton]

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

Yeah blind copy is so bad... wah wah wah

I mean... when you read a post like this... you can't help but wonder:

Are you legitimately asking? Or are you trying to start an online water cooler complaining session?

I ask because I think ANYONE with any kind of marketing common sense understands blind copy isn't going anywhere...

Not only does it work great for merchants... but consumers LOVE it.

Why do you think they voluntarily hand over the money?

And please don't respond with something about lies, or any other nonsense...

That has NOTHING to do with blind copy.

Jeez man, calm down. I'm not starting any wars, I'm asking an open question fellow copywriters.

I have written several blind copy pieces in the past 12 months - some of which have been top of Clickbank recently.

I know it works, that's not the question. What I'm asking is whether copywriters feel this trend will buck or not.

And I'm not alone. Recently, I have heard or directly spoken with some big copywriters who have shared their doubts over the longevity of such strategies for selling.

So, no need to get angry, it's just a question.

[Ross James]

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

Yeah blind copy is so bad... wah wah wah

I mean... when you read a post like this... you can't help but wonder:

Are you legitimately asking? Or are you trying to start an online water cooler complaining session?

I ask because I think ANYONE with any kind of marketing common sense understands blind copy isn't going anywhere...

Not only does it work great for merchants... but consumers LOVE it.

Why do you think they voluntarily hand over the money?

And please don't respond with something about lies, or any other nonsense...

That has NOTHING to do with blind copy.

I guess call out John Carlton and Kevin Rogers while your at it. They recently did a drive by on blind copy and how some organizations have policies when hiring copywriters because they have been so seriously damaged by it.

If it's working for you great, but I think blind copy can be just as bad as it is good. and like others have mentioned, blind can mean you just ain't got the goods to back it up because if you did, why not wet some appetites with it? I consider it added proof when you can give useful information.

blah blah blah

[Nick Brighton]

Originally Posted by Ross James

I guess call out John Carlton and Kevin Rogers while your at it. They recently did a drive by on blind copy and how some organizations have policies when hiring copywriters because they have been so seriously damaged by it.

If it's working for you great, but I think blind copy can be just as bad as it is good. and like others have mentioned, blind can mean you just ain't got the goods to back it up because if you did, why not wet some appetites with it? I consider it added proof when you can give useful information.

blah blah blah

Very true.

One of the reasons why a lot of product owners insist on blind copy isn't just because the product doesn't stand up, but because they feel that if you tell the prospect what is basically involved, they won't want to know.

Why? Because everything has been done before. Therefore, telling them it's X,Y,Z makes them feel that they already know it, or don't want to do it for any preconceived notions about X,Y,Z.

BUT...

If you target the right propsects, you can tell them exactly what it's about and still get a great response.

Why don't the general IM launches do that?

Because it drastically decreases their reach. If they can reach 150k of people across the market, who all want the same benefits and results, it's much more logical (in their mind) than just going after the 12k of people that want to know more about the actual X,Y,Z.

So after refunds, they still have the targeted customers who actually wanted it, but also some easy money from the stragglers who didn't bother getting their money back.

[OnlineMasterMind]

Originally Posted by Nick Brighton

Jeez man, calm down. I'm not starting any wars, I'm asking an open question fellow copywriters.

I have written several blind copy pieces in the past 12 months - some of which have been top of Clickbank recently.

I know it works, that's not the question. What I'm asking is whether copywriters feel this trend will buck or not.

And I'm not alone. Recently, I have heard or directly spoken with some big copywriters who have shared their doubts over the longevity of such strategies for selling.

So, no need to get angry, it's just a question.

lol I'm not angry. I apologize if my post came across that way.

So let me ask you this then...

Let's say you are going to sell a MMO online product... And you don't even have a salesletter... just a buy now button... And you say, "here's my top secret money making system. Buy it now and discover exactly what it is and how it works..."

In other words... blind copy to the MAX.

And then people buy it.

What is the problem?

I wouldn't buy it.

But some people might... what's the problem?

I don't get it.

Are people not capable of making their own decisions?

The market dictates what people do, not copywriters... as long as people continue to buy... people will continue to sell.

It's like people complaining about the news and how negative it is... It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the news... it has to do with people and what they want to watch, regardless of what they say.

[OnlineMasterMind]

Originally Posted by Ross James

I guess call out John Carlton and Kevin Rogers while your at it. They recently did a drive by on blind copy and how some organizations have policies when hiring copywriters because they have been so seriously damaged by it.

If it's working for you great, but I think blind copy can be just as bad as it is good. and like others have mentioned, blind can mean you just ain't got the goods to back it up because if you did, why not wet some appetites with it? I consider it added proof when you can give useful information.

blah blah blah

lol And your point is?

I said...

1) blind copy works
2) anyone with common sense can see that it is BLATANTLY OBVIOUS blind copy isn't going anywhere
3) there's nothing inherently wrong or unethical abouit blind copy...

Fake screenshots and lies? Of course that is wrong.... and any marketer who does that is WEAK and PATHETIC. (along with any copywriter who knowingly writes that kind of copy)

I think it's funny that you mention KEVIN ROGERS and JOHN CARLTON (dun dun dun!) lol

But again, what is your point as it relates to my post?

[Ross James]

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

lol I'm not angry. I apologize if my post came across that way.

You still mad? Oh you're not angry you said, never mind.

[Nick Brighton]

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

lol I'm not angry. I apologize if my post came across that way.

So let me ask you this then...

Let's say you are going to sell a MMO online product... And you don't even have a salesletter... just a buy now button... And you say, "here's my top secret money making system. Buy it now and discover exactly what it is and how it works..."

In other words... blind copy to the MAX.

And then people buy it.

What is the problem?

I wouldn't buy it.

But some people might... what's the problem?

I don't get it.

Are people not capable of making their own decisions?

The market dictates what people do, not copywriters... as long as people continue to buy... people will continue to sell.

It's like people complaining about the news and how negative it is... It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the news... it has to do with people and what they want to watch, regardless of what they say.

Did I say there was anything wrong with it? I said there were negative aspects to it. I wasn't asking for moral opinions. I was asking fellow copywriters for their opinions of the future for such a selling style.

If there were medals for post skimming and over-reaction, you'd be on the #1 podium with a bunch of flowers and gold one the size of a dinner plate.

[Ken_Caudill]

The copy isn't the problem. The sad truth is that most info products in the IM and weight loss niches are useless. No one gets rich. No one gets six-pack abs. Selling off the money-back guarantee is the absolute weakest form of sales.

So returns are high.

If returns are less than gross, the product owner makes money.

There is a reason that writing a 2000 word sales letter pays much better than writing a 5000 word ebook.

[OnlineMasterMind]

Originally Posted by Nick Brighton

Did I say there was anything wrong with it?

Yes.

Yes, you did. If you read through your posts, you can clearly see your belief system... your screaming it loud and clear throughout this thread: "the right thing to do is just tell people exactly what is in the product and let them make a decision based on that."

[Ross James]

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

Yes.

Yes, you did.

You sound like you need a timeout. Just stop, you came in here spilling your candy about how Nick was trying to start a water cooler war or whatever it was you said.

Just relax, feel your feet touch against your floor, your back against your chair, take a deep breath now do you feel better?

[Ken_Caudill]

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

Yes.

Yes, you did. If you read through your posts, you can clearly see your belief system... your screaming it loud and clear throughout this thread: "the right thing to do is just tell people exactly what is in the product and let them make a decision based on that."

Seems to me that if you do that persuasively, you have a winner.

We all know that people need "logical" reasons to justify their emotional decisions.

[Nick Brighton]

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

Yes.

Yes, you did. If you read through your posts, you can clearly see your belief system... your screaming it loud and clear throughout this thread: "the right thing to do is just tell people exactly what is in the product and let them make a decision based on that."

"Are we seeing the end of something", is not the same as "I want to see the end of something."

But damn, you'd make a great copywriter. You can literally read people's minds.

Sure, I think a lot of blind copy is wrong - WHEN the product is **** and the owner is flat out lying.

I also think a lot of guns are bad, WHEN they're used to shoot someone in the head.

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

The copy isn't the problem. The sad truth is that most info products in the IM and weight loss niches are useless. No one gets rich. No one gets six-pack abs. Selling off the money-back guarantee is the absolute weakest form of sales.

So returns are high.

If returns are less than gross, the product owner makes money.

There is a reason that writing a 2000 word sales letter pays much better than writing a 5000 word ebook.

Yeah, which probably explains why a pen name is always used. Nobody wants to put their name to a product that got 60% refunds.

[kellyburdes]

Blind Copy is going to be around for awhile.

The truth is most of the products being sold with blind copy could not be sold any other way. If you told people what they are actually getting (a piece of autoblogging software that cost the marketer between $150 and $500 to have written in most cases) people would not buy. Enough people though still want to believe you can get something for nothing, and thats just human nature. If it wasn't nobody would buy loto tickets or get married a second time.

Simple fact is blind copy works. How well?

One recent product still made a profit of just over $600,000 for the vendor after paying affiliates 60% and having nearly a 70% refund rate.

Another, having slightly over a 50% refund rate and paying affiliates 70% made over $1million for the vendor.

The Manchester Mafia boys know what they are doing.

I think there's going to be a backlash among certain JVs and partners before there will be a decline in overall buyers..but that remains to be seen too.

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by kellyburdes

I think there's going to be a backlash among certain JVs and partners before there will be a decline in overall buyers..but that remains to be seen too.

I agree.

I think you'll see Clickbank crack down first. They can't be happy refunding 60%+ on any product's orders. Sooner or later, they'll start cancelling/suspending accounts or wacking them with stiff penalties.

[Nick Brighton]

I agree too Kelly.

I can't see JVs or Clickbank putting up with the refunds. It costs them time, staffing costs and lost revenue.

[Ken_Caudill]

Originally Posted by kellyburdes

Simple fact is blind copy works. How well?

One recent product still made a profit of just over $600,000 for the vendor after paying affiliates 60% and having nearly a 70% refund rate.

Another, having slightly over a 50% refund rate and paying affiliates 70% made over $1million for the vendor.

The Manchester Mafia boys know what they are doing.

I think there's going to be a backlash among certain JVs and partners before there will be a decline in overall buyers..but that remains to be seen too.

Yes, there will always be idiots and those who make their living taking advantage of them.

Face it, the single page sales site screams scam because of operators like you mention. Sending direct traffic to them is pretty much a waste of time and money. Now Google makes sure that you can't buy traffic to send to those sites and make a profit, anyway. The only traffic they convert is pre-sold from a list.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with blind copy, but when you lie down with dogs, you come up with fleas. It is becoming too closely associated with scam products to be effective, especially in the IM niche.

[kellyburdes]

They are slowly starting too, but thing is many of these are apex vendors. In Forex refund rate is over 50% and has been for I believe 2 1/2 or 3 years, but CB continues to put up with it because it is the average across the board in the market. Same group who does a lot of the Forex "robots and EAs" is now the group putting out the autoblogging stuff, and I think we will probably start to see similar refunds creep into IM, so if the very high refunds become the average in the niche then CB does not have much ability to crack down.

If CB cracks down too much they will just use Plimus, which they have done with Forex in the past.

The biggest thing to counter them is probably JV's, however if you look at the IM market they are big players and have the types of list that most people would dream about having access to for JV partnerships. There are some people coming out though so we will see what happens.

Kelly

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

I agree.

I think you'll see Clickbank crack down first. They can't be happy refunding 60%+ on any product's orders. Sooner or later, they'll start cancelling/suspending accounts or wacking them with stiff penalties.

[kellyburdes]

I'm not personally involved in the MMO niche, but many of my friends. I've done some coaching, but honestly didn't enjoy it because people don't follow through so I felt like I was wasting time.

In any case here is what I see.

There is a certain segment of the market who is opposed to what is going on, and there will be a backlash. Maybe a new Inner Circle will form outside of Manchester to promote CB products, who knows.

The thing is though many people in IM don't know how to get list except by JV partnerships, and you have no chance with these guys if you don't also mail for them, so people, in desperation, will email for them.

Originally Posted by Nick Brighton

I agree too Kelly.

I can't see JVs or Clickbank putting up with the refunds. It costs them time, staffing costs and lost revenue.

[Collette]

There's blind copy and there's blind copy.

One kind of blind copy purposely doesn't give ANY information.

The other kind of blind copy gives juuust enough information (based on an informed knowledge of the product) to tease and titillate.

The first kind of blind copy is usually written for products that can't deliver, or are outright crap.

The second kind of blind copy is usually backed by the real deal.

The second kind of blind copy will never die. Humans are incurably curious.

The first kind of blind copy is why expecting a cash-sucking sales letter for $47 is a fool's journey.