Oooh! It makes me MAD! (Rant)

[arfasaira]

How infuriating.

After a thorough consultation and detailed questionnaire which my client filled out for a leaflet, I went away and spent a few hours on it...

...confident I had produced a highly benefit driven leaflet which is all about the customer, I sent it off to my client....

and guess what? He ripped it to shreds. Apparently, I should 'know better as a copywriter how to get the words across' and that the leaflet needs to be 'clever' (he meant obscure with fancy words which the average Joe isn't going to get).

He hated the benefit-driven tagline.

So, despite best efforts by yours truly to educate and inform, he wants a load of waffle on where he got his degree and how much was spent on re-doing his business. Who cares?

aaarrrrggggghhhhhh!

In the end, he got what he wanted. Poncy, fancy and clever. Of absolutely NO benefit to the customer. What an idiot.

Why oh why is it always the ones who think they are so clever, are SO NOT?!

[erikmacklin]

that was seriously dumb....
i totally agree with you arfasaira, some prople think that they are smart and clever but are not...

[Marvin Johnston]

Originally Posted by arfasaira

How infuriating.


In the end, he got what he wanted. Poncy, fancy and clever. Of absolutely NO benefit to the customer. What an idiot.

Why oh why is it always the ones who think they are so clever, are SO NOT?!

Why did you take on that client after you found out what he was like?

Marvin

[Aj Wilson]

If it's worth it, and if this client is important to you.

You could split test and push both leaflets to a free mail chimp account or something,
and show him which one pulls more response and show him the difference.

Then charge him double for being a moron?

[arfasaira]

Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston

Why did you take on that client after you found out what he was like?

Marvin

I wish I had known! Everything was fine until I got my draft back! He was helpful and friendly...but when we got down to it, it was his way or no way.

Serious imbecile. As for split testing - it's a great idea but in his case, he is working to a tight budget and once his leaflet is done, it will be standard leaflet drop.

I'm also working on his web content and dread to think what he will do to that !

[briancassingena]

I have had clients refuse to pay remaining fees after seeing the finished product. This is despite them seeing plenty of samples of my work beforehand, and knowing I write direct response copy, not glossy brochures.

In every case I have fired them immediately. Believe me, it's a lot of fun, and you're better off without the money, if you don't have to put up with the client either.

But it's only happened a coupla times, and obviously it means I've done something to attract them, so marketing adjustments had to be made. Haven't had one for a while now

[Danielle Lynn]

Well at least we all have the smug satisfaction of knowing that without Arfasaira, he won't get very far in his business.

[FuNwiThChRiS]

You need to forget about benefits, hype, and everything you read on these forums with some clients...

Never Forget This:
If you "think like a copywriter" you will fail. If you "think like your client" you will win.

Plus, if it doesn't work - it was his idea! Just a little note from experience ...good luck!

[arfasaira]

Originally Posted by FuNwiThChRiS

You need to forget about benefits, hype, and everything you read on these forums with some clients...

Never Forget This:
If you "think like a copywriter" you will fail. If you "think like your client" you will win.

Plus, if it doesn't work - it was his idea! Just a little note from experience ...good luck!

well, I guess so, BUT here's the thing: you see, left to their own devices, a client would surely fall flat on their face (I mean, that's why they hire us right?) and its supposed to be our job to make them more profitable.

What annoys me is that even through no fault of their own, copywriters are often touted as being 'rubbish or a waste of money' (one of the other posts on this forum has already mentioned this) by stupid clients who blame their shoddy marketing attempts on us.

Yes, its his idea. But we can't stop them bad mouthing us and making us look bad to his other corporate friends now can we?

That's what irritates me.

[FuNwiThChRiS]

Originally Posted by arfasaira

well, I guess so, BUT here's the thing: you see, left to their own devices, a client would surely fall flat on their face (I mean, that's why they hire us right?) and its supposed to be our job to make them more profitable.

What annoys me is that even through no fault of their own, copywriters are often touted as being 'rubbish or a waste of money' (one of the other posts on this forum has already mentioned this) by stupid clients who blame their shoddy marketing attempts on us.

Yes, its his idea. But we can't stop them bad mouthing us and making us look bad to his other corporate friends now can we?

That's what irritates me.

I understand (and agree) ...but I think you may be missing the point. In any business, your goal as a copywriter/consultant is to make YOUR client happy. That's how you get paid. You do the best you can to increase their sales USING THEIR REQUIREMENTS. Sure, you might have a better idea and "think you know how to sell more" but if you are thinking like this - you are already wrong.

Who gives a **** if they sell 10 bananas or 10,000,000? You get paid if you deliver what the client asks for. If what they want is wrong, it's not your fault.

Professional copywriters (not con-artists) get paid by delivering what they are hired and "expected" to write. They are not paid with a "% of sales" or on a commission system as some self-absorbed, ego-driven writers on the internet claim...

[JonWebContent]

Did you respond with "I'm sorry Mr. (last name), I'm a professional copywriter. You're a professional (insert occupation). If you think you know good copy when you see it and know mine sucks, why don't we switch occupations, and then you can prove your awesomeness?"

[Danielle Lynn]

Originally Posted by FuNwiThChRiS

I understand (and agree) ...but I think you may be missing the point. In any business, your goal as a copywriter/consultant is to make YOUR client happy. That's how you get paid. You do the best you can to increase their sales USING THEIR REQUIREMENTS. Sure, you might have a better idea and "think you know how to sell more" but if you are thinking like this - you are already wrong.

Who gives a **** if they sell 10 bananas or 10,000,000? You get paid if you deliver what the client asks for. If what they want is wrong, it's not your fault.

Professional copywriters (not con-artists) get paid by delivering what they are hired and "expected" to write. They are not paid with a "% of sales" or on a commission system as some self-absorbed, ego-driven writers on the internet claim...

Hi Chris,

I believe I agree with this to an extent. To me, a copywriter's job is to make the client happy - and to help them improve their business through writing.

So I disagree where you say who gives a **** how many they sell. If I hired someone to write and consult for me, and they just went along with my ideas to make me happy only to have my business suffer, what kind of copywriter/consultant is that?

If I'm consulting for a client, and I know writing in a certain fashion will hurt their business, I'm going to make sure they're well aware and do my best to talk them towards a different solution.

However, I agree with the fact that I don't have any control over the other aspects.. marketing and what not. And ultimately, after listening to my advice, if the client still wants me to write copy in backwards gibberish, I would do it. It is their money after all. However, I would first make sure they fully understand how that would negatively affect their sales.

And I also agree that egos have no place with truly professional copywriters- or anywhere professional for that matter.

[FuNwiThChRiS]

Originally Posted by DanielleLynnCopy

Hi Chris,

I believe I agree with this to an extent. To me, a copywriter's job is to make the client happy - and to help them improve their business through writing.

So I disagree where you say who gives a **** how many they sell. If I hired someone to write and consult for me, and they just went along with my ideas to make me happy only to have my business suffer, what kind of copywriter/consultant is that?

If I'm consulting for a client, and I know writing in a certain fashion will hurt their business, I'm going to make sure they're well aware and do my best to talk them towards a different solution.

However, I agree with the fact that I don't have any control over the other aspects.. marketing and what not. And ultimately, after listening to my advice, if the client still wants me to write copy in backwards gibberish, I would do it. It is their money after all. However, I would first make sure they fully understand how that would negatively affect their sales.

And I also agree that egos have no place with truly professional copywriters- or anywhere professional for that matter.

Smart girl. This is ALWAYS the correct approach. Just remember, the people that hire you want you to "take their ideas" and make them sell. You should not expect (and will not get) any of the credit when it works.

[thriftgirl62]

Definition: Raging Ego-Maniac with a God-Complex and Narcissistic personality disorder

[Ross James]

Originally Posted by FuNwiThChRiS

Never Forget This:
If you "think like a copywriter" you will fail. If you "think like your client" you will win.

If you think like a copywriter you will fail.

let me write that down.

[Marvin Johnston]

Originally Posted by DanielleLynnCopy

However, I agree with the fact that I don't have any control over the other aspects.. marketing and what not. And ultimately, after listening to my advice, if the client still wants me to write copy in backwards gibberish, I would do it. It is their money after all. However, I would first make sure they fully understand how that would negatively affect their sales.

Very true ... it is their money.

But YOUR reputation is also at stake if something gets put out with your name on it, and it bombs. At that point, people are unlikely to say "Oh, she was forced to put out that ... stuff."

Marvin

[Danielle Lynn]

Smart girl. This is ALWAYS the correct approach. Just remember, the people that hire you want you to "take their ideas" and make them sell. You should not expect (and will not get) any of the credit when it works.

I suppose it depends on who you work with, but it does happen a lot

Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston

Very true ... it is their money.

But YOUR reputation is also at stake if something gets put out with your name on it, and it bombs. At that point, people are unlikely to say "Oh, she was forced to put out that ... stuff."

Marvin

It's true Marvin, excellent point But I would never say I was forced to write the copy. I would simply explain I was honoring a contract with a client, and that I always respect my client's final wishes. If anyone asks, I'd gladly show them what I originally wrote and recommended!

Whether or not I like how my client uses the copy, unless they did something to break the contract, I would honor it to the end

[Marvin Johnston]

Originally Posted by DanielleLynnCopy

But I would never say I was forced to write the copy. I would simply explain I was honoring a contract with a client, and that I always respect my client's final wishes. If anyone asks, I'd gladly show them what I originally wrote and recommended!

While you may never say it (nor would I), what about the people who DON'T ask you? "Houston, we have a problem" .

Marvin

[Kay King]

You know what really hurts your "reputation" when you do a leaflet?

Treating the client like he's stupid, doing the work reluctantly and pointing out at every step how you know more about his business than he does. In the end, the client got the leaflet he wanted - so the work is something he'll be satisfied with. It's doubtful this job is important enough to the client that he'll spending time telling others about it - unless YOU were a pain to work with.

The last excuse in a rant like this is always "my reputation" but I think it's more the desire to prove "I'm right". You may be right about the work but you aren't the man's business partner, investor or customer - you were hired to get a job done. You can advise and offer assistance but in the end it's his job and his money.

I've had clients tell me about "bad outsourcers" they've used - and so often the complaint is not "quality" but "attitude".

It would be lovely to only work with clients who want to be told how things should be done and would praise us to the skies for being right. But if you decide to work with only that type of client - you'll starve.

kay

[ewenmack]

Hi Arfa,

What I see here is a positioning problem.

He perceived you as a person to write a clear message
about him.

You perceived yourself as the person to drive more sales.

Yes, in many circles, copywriting is just about writing words.

You, me and most of the writers here see it as a means to drive sales.

That's the way they think.

We aren't in the business in changing people's minds...we are in the business
of meeting existing wants and desires.

With that in mind, clearly tell your prospective clients what they will get.

This can, and should, exclude others.

Hope this little setback drives you to greater things.

All the best,
Ewen

[scrofford]

Originally Posted by arfasaira

How infuriating.

After a thorough consultation and detailed questionnaire which my client filled out for a leaflet, I went away and spent a few hours on it...

...confident I had produced a highly benefit driven leaflet which is all about the customer, I sent it off to my client....

and guess what? He ripped it to shreds. Apparently, I should 'know better as a copywriter how to get the words across' and that the leaflet needs to be 'clever' (he meant obscure with fancy words which the average Joe isn't going to get).

He hated the benefit-driven tagline.

So, despite best efforts by yours truly to educate and inform, he wants a load of waffle on where he got his degree and how much was spent on re-doing his business. Who cares?

aaarrrrggggghhhhhh!

In the end, he got what he wanted. Poncy, fancy and clever. Of absolutely NO benefit to the customer. What an idiot.

Why oh why is it always the ones who think they are so clever, are SO NOT?!

People aren't educated. They think they "know" how it all works when it comes to customers. You can't tell them either...just like you found out. Oh well, the benefit of this is that the client might come back to you wanting more help when he doesn't make any sales. Then you can probably do it the right way. Although he may not come back thinking you are the problem...who knows! You tried though.

[jtunkelo]

It can be tricky when you find out halfway through a project - or even when completely done as in your case - that the client really doesn't know what they're buying.

In my opinion, if that happens it's often best to claim your kill fee and leave. Rather than do something that will smudge your reputation and do no good to the client anyway.

But of course every case is different. Here's hoping yours will have a happy ending.

[Collette]

Originally Posted by FuNwiThChRiS

I understand (and agree) ...but I think you may be missing the point. In any business, your goal as a copywriter/consultant is to make YOUR client happy. That's how you get paid. You do the best you can to increase their sales USING THEIR REQUIREMENTS. Sure, you might have a better idea and "think you know how to sell more" but if you are thinking like this - you are already wrong.

Who gives a **** if they sell 10 bananas or 10,000,000? You get paid if you deliver what the client asks for. If what they want is wrong, it's not your fault.

Professional copywriters (not con-artists) get paid by delivering what they are hired and "expected" to write. They are not paid with a "% of sales" or on a commission system as some self-absorbed, ego-driven writers on the internet claim...

Gotta disagree with the premise here.

As a professional copywriter, you SHOULD give a **** if your client sells 10 bananas or 10,000,000 as a result of your copy.

It's a matter of professional pride. Or it should be.

Yes, you can't always make clients see the light. And, yes, ultimately, there's a point past which - if you want to get paid - you accept the inevitable, write to the client's requirements, cash your check, and get on with your life.

But EVERY ONE of my repeat clients (and my business is 99% repeat clients) are repeat clients BECAUSE I had a better idea that allowed them to sell more.

They know that when they want to sell, I'm their go-to resource for making it happen. My clients don't just use me to write; they use me to brainstorm, come up with fresh approaches, bounce ideas off of, and help clarify their ideas. They see me as a resource to help them succeed, not just "a writer".

And, yes - I very much consider myself "a professional" (not a con-artist).

Moreover, I believe my first job is NOT to think like my client.

My first job is to think like my client's prospect.

If I think just like my client, they don't need me. There's no reason for my services. I'm merely an echo.

However, many people in business are so close to their own product or service, they can't see their product or service like their client sees it.

That's MY job. That's why they need me.

My second job is make the client happy. And if that means accepting that the client doesn't want to see through any perspective other than his own (and I have somehow missed that in the screening process), then so be it.

I state my case, do the job, and move on. Life is too short.

[travlinguy]

With all due respece and since no one has mentioned it, maybe the copy did suck. If you want some objectivity rather than a bunch of sympathy, why not post what you delivered and let some of the trained eyes here determine whether there was a foul or not.

[arfasaira]

Originally Posted by travlinguy

With all due respece and since no one has mentioned it, maybe the copy did suck. If you want some objectivity rather than a bunch of sympathy, why not post what you delivered and let some of the trained eyes here determine whether there was a foul or not.

Thanks for the suggestion, but there is a very simple reason I will not post my stuff here - and that's because I have a great coach who can give me all the feedback I need. Plus, I don't think it's going to inspire confidence in any future clients to see my copy being poked and prodded very publicly.

That's like any professional copywriter posting their copy here and waiting for the inevitable onslaught by others. And as Mike Humphries pointed out, some people can be very unkind, and there is no need for it.

I don't do public humiliation too well. It makes me cry

[Daniel Scott]

I think Arfa has Paul Hancox as a coach, and if he looks over her stuff, it's unlikely it's terrible when it's delivered.

Arfa - welcome to being a copywriter. These things happen. Here's how you deal with them...

First off... tell you client you believe it's going to lower response. Tell him you'll do what he wants if he insists, but you can't be held responsible for the results.

If you've positioned yourself well, he will treat you as the expert and (hopefully) assent.

But sometimes... clients just suck. Nature of being a freelancer.

-Daniel

[Johnny12345]

Originally Posted by arfasaira

Why oh why is it always the ones who think they are so clever, are SO NOT?!

Some business people think their marketing should be about THEM. They never figure out that marketing is actually about the CUSTOMER and what they want.

John

[Kay King]

Because some business people think their marketing should be about THEM. They never figure out that marketing is actually about the CUSTOMER and what they want.

That's true - but if you take a job it's also true that the business owner is YOUR customer. The work should about HIM and not about you.

If his expectations are unrealistic or you don't like his decisions - you turn down the job. If it's a crappy product, you turn down the job. This customer didn't like the first draft. You stayed on the job.

What I wouldn't do is take the customer's money and then go out and call him a "serious imbecile." You can hurt your own reputation doing that.

kay

[Johnny12345]

Originally Posted by Kay King

The work should about HIM and not about you.

If his expectations are unrealistic or you don't like his decisions - you turn down the job. If it's a crappy product, you turn down the job. This customer didn't like the first draft. You stayed on the job.

What I wouldn't do is take the customer's money and then go out and call him a "serious imbecile." You can hurt your own reputation doing that.

Obviously, I think most people would agree with that. You do your best to advise them, but that's all you can really do. After all... in the end, it's their money.

John

[sethczerepak]

Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston

Why did you take on that client after you found out what he was like?

Marvin

I'm thinking the same thing. This customer is obviously an egocentric control freak...and why in the $&%@ shell out money for an expert only to reject them and assume you can do better?

This is why I always say that the biggest obstacle to your success isn't your competitors, it's your EGO.

My advice, use this a reminder that sometimes it's okay to fire your customer.

[travlinguy]

Originally Posted by arfasaira

Thanks for the suggestion, but there is a very simple reason I will not post my stuff here - and that's because I have a great coach who can give me all the feedback I need. Plus, I don't think it's going to inspire confidence in any future clients to see my copy being poked and prodded very publicly.

That's like any professional copywriter posting their copy here and waiting for the inevitable onslaught by others. And as Mike Humphries pointed out, some people can be very unkind, and there is no need for it.

I don't do public humiliation too well. It makes me cry

Interesting response. People can be unkind. Hmmm. So what. I got started in this business writing for a crusty old gal who actually set type for Gutenberg. You should have seen the comments she'd make about my submissions. But hanging in there with her really paid off for me. And I'm sure many would call her approach unkind.

Our society has become one of wimpy, wet noodles where everything is supposed to be happy-happy all the time and we have to be soooo sensitive to everyone’s feelings all the time no matter what the hell they might be doing or not doing. The proof is right here in this thread. Without seeing what you've submitted most people here have run to your defense against the big, bad, mean, unreasonable client. I see this story as having two sides with only yours in evidence.

But that’s the world today. God forbid that anyone should get offended. I agree that vicious attacks are uncalled for. But legit criticism by people who have actually been there and done that, even if it’s a little rough around the edges, should be welcomed my any serious writer.

You also say you don't want to be poked and prodded publicly because potential clients would see it. Let me ask you something. Do you think a potential client would appreciate seeing this thread and want to hire you? The way you come across in the OP would immediately disqualify you with most rational people because you seem to be a spoiled, attention-seeking child. If that's unkind, so be it.

You're in good hands with your coach. I really like Paul because he's a guy that thinks outside the box. He also has a great sense of humor and I believe he’d be a great teacher. I know I’ve learned a lot from his posts. But limiting yourself to feedback by only one person isn't going to cut it in the real world. Still, it's your gig so play it the way you want. Good luck.

[Collette]

Originally Posted by travlinguy

Interesting response. ...Our society has become one of wimpy, wet noodles where everything is supposed to be happy-happy all the time and we have to be soooo sensitive to everyone’s feelings all the time no matter what the hell they might be doing or not doing. The proof is right here in this thread. Without seeing what you've submitted...

You make some good points about ranting on a client publicly. And the general wimpiness trend. Still, vis a vis posting the work in question here:

To be a valid comparison, asafaria would have to post both versions.

I wouldn't post a client's work (my version or not; client identified or not) in a public forum. There are lots of lurkers here.

Who's to say the client isn't among them?

(Which, of course, is another reason why you probably shouldn't rant about a client in the heat of the battle)

But, more to the point, most clients expect a certain basic level of confidentiality about their business when they deal with their copywriter. My clients certainly do.

Without my client's express permission, I would never post any drafts of their work publicly, for critique or otherwise.

[travlinguy]

Originally Posted by Collette

You make some good points about ranting on a client publicly. And the general wimpiness trend. Still, vis a vis posting the work in question here:

To be a valid comparison, asafaria would have to post both versions.

I wouldn't post a client's work (my version or not; client identified or not) in a public forum. There are lots of lurkers here.

Who's to say the client isn't among them?

(Which, of course, is another reason why you probably shouldn't rant about a client in the heat of the battle)

But, more to the point, most clients expect a certain basic level of confidentiality about their business when they deal with their copywriter. My clients certainly do.

Without my client's express permission, I would never post any drafts of their work publicly, for critique or otherwise.

Point taken. Still, I believe the OP had a great opportunity for a learning experience rather than a pity party. It's obvious that she's in a highly emotional state right now over this. What a perfect time for learning. Stuff we experience in that very state is stuff that sticks. I guess that's why so many copywriters strive to first create that state when writing.

To me this is a missed opportunity for a blossoming writer.

Who knows, she might have gotten a tip that changed her perspective on writing or marketing or dealing with dopey clients or whatever and added to her knowledge base. This thread, though it might make one feel a little better about the situation, is absolutely pointless otherwise.

As for posting samples, I don't know. Maybe it isn't prudent. It probably isn't now. But it might have been okay had it first been posted without the attached "Rant." So it goes...

[arfasaira]

Originally Posted by travlinguy

Point taken. Still, I believe the OP had a great opportunity for a learning experience rather than a pity party. It's obvious that she's in a highly emotional state right now over this. What a perfect time for learning. Stuff we experience in that very state is stuff that sticks. I guess that's why so many copywriters strive to first create that state when writing.

To me this is a missed opportunity for a blossoming writer.

Who knows, she might have gotten a tip that changed her perspective on writing or marketing or dealing with dopey clients or whatever and added to her knowledge base. This thread, though it might make one feel a little better about the situation, is absolutely pointless otherwise.

As for posting samples, I don't know. Maybe it isn't prudent. It probably isn't now. But it might have been okay had it first been posted without the attached "Rant." So it goes...

I take on board what you are saying and posted not for pity or anything like that, but just to have a moan. After all, no matter how much we love what we do, we all get annoyed and irritated over people who think that somehow they know better. Isn't that why they hire us in the first place, because they don't know how it's done, or they know but don't have a clue how to do it themselves?

It certainly isn't a missed opportunity for me - the other copywriters here have given me some excellent advice on how to handle situations like this (a first for me), which I guess is more what I was hoping for. Perhaps i should have made it clearer from the beginning.

And Collete made a very valuable point - clients wouldn't be happy about posting their copy on a public forum. The copy I wrote has now been rewritten and the client loves it. I have advised my client tactfully, but in the end, the decision is with him.

PS - I never respond to pointless threads!

[loganquinn]

I feel your pain! Although I personally believe the customer is always right, sometimes it's hard to stick to that belief...

[Greg Wildermuth]

I always put down my frustrations with lousy clients as "learning experience."... that is, after I punch something, shout or play some drums to work it all out.

[Harrisonamy]

Very frustrating, and you can't just write to please your client's whims. Unfortunately, there is a perception that copywriting is kind of something anyone who can write, can do.

I'm betting he doesn't tear up his accountant's work and tell him to get the figures right.

Stand by your ground, explain that you stand by your ground and that you're not suited. DOn't worry about him bad mouthing you - put your energy in finding an appreciative client - they are out there, trust me!

[thriftgirl62]

Originally Posted by Harrisonamy

Very frustrating, and you can't just write to please your client's whims. Unfortunately, there is a perception that copywriting is kind of something anyone who can write, can do.

That's exactly what this lady says here. http://www.ez-1.net/twenty
That's not my site or anything. I just think that idea is pretty good,
if only there was a great copywriter for the marketing end of it.