What do you think about a 30-day money back for a service? -- Instead of a product

[Elion Makkink]

Hey fellow warriors,

I have a question regarding offering a guarantee for a service.

A friend of mine is a professional wedding photographer and he recently asked my for advice of marketing and copywriting his salespage.

I wonder whether I should insert a guarantee in the sales page or not.
Prices are from about $895 for a whole day of photography.

I know that offering a guarantee are risk avers and might push the prospect to buy. However offering their money back for this service sounds a bit inappropriate to me.

What do you think on offering a guarantee for these kind of services?

[travlinguy]

First, this is a question that will do far better on the main board. To answer, it depends on what the 'industry standard' is for wedding photographers. If the majority of them offer money-back guarantees then your buddy isn't competitive unless he offers that as well. I don't think the wedding photo business is like that. A photographer has far too much time into a gig to offer a complete money back guarantee. That's my opinion rather than fact. Good luck.

[BrianMcLeod]

When you hire a wedding photographer, which do you want?

A) Your money back if he screws everything up and ruins the memories

B) Certainty that he will NOT screw everything up

Big difference in positioning and appeal.

Best,

Brian

[John_S]

However offering their money back for this service sounds a bit inappropriate to me.

Every service business uses the same excuse in drawing absolutely ludicrous distinctions between products and services. Unless they are mental images beamed into the client's brain, you're offering a mixture of both product and service.

Many businesses are not product or service --they're both. And yes, photographers can and do guarantee full money back or more, but that's rather unimaginative and boring. (And while you're thinking up an excuse, yes he does wedding photography)

It's an issue of the photographer/client being risk averse, not the customers behind this argument. This is not trivial -- it might be for good reason.

Here's how you generate a refund. Offer a photo print size no frame fits. When the customer calls, explain it's like when hot dogs come 10 to a pack while buns are 8 to a pack. To cap it off, tell them it's part of the package they bought. (Essentially "tough luck") That is not fiction either, I know one photographer has tested this out as triggering a refund: it works.

Now that is bold. That is far more gutsy than anything I suggest doing. And that is the dynamic behind this, not customers you can't trust with a guarantee.

Marketing isn't slapping magic tricks on things. It's a coherent plan outside the guarantee that insures the guarantee won't break the business. It's called service. And sorry, too many service businesses are not used to the idea.

For what it's worth, modern technology makes imaginative, bold guarantees in photography less risky. No revolutionary breakthrough technology required. But you have to become a twenty-first century business to see it.

Of course, if they are mental images being beamed directly into the customer's brain, then forget what I just wrote. You don't need a guarantee or regular copy either; you just need a news release, some barbed wire and guard dogs.

[marciayudkin]

When you hire a wedding photographer, which do you want?

A) Your money back if he screws everything up and ruins the memories

B) Certainty that he will NOT screw everything up

Brian has an important point. With a wedding, it's not possible to go back and do it over again if the photographer's camera and memory get lost on the way back to his office. What consolation to the bride and family would it be to get the money back?

In addition, in this instance, the money-back guarantee raises this very issue in the prospect's mind if they were not already concerned about it, as well as the idea that the quality might not be up to snuff.

Fro the consumer's point of view, I would rather see the guarantee target particular aspects of the whole job. For example, if there's a whole batch of photos that I feel aren't "usable" then I don't want to pay for those, while getting all the rest of them, or that I'll get the number of photos that were agreed on, all to my liking.

An iron-clad guarantee is good, but you must be careful in how you phrase it so it creates the right feelings of security in the minds of the prospect.

Marcia Yudkin

[John_S]

For example, if there's a whole batch of photos that I feel aren't "usable" then I don't want to pay for those, while getting all the rest of them, or that I'll get the number of photos that were agreed on, all to my liking.

In twenty-first century photography this sentence shouldn't make any sense. That it does make sense means more from a marketing standpoint than the guarantee thing.

With a wedding, it's not possible to go back and do it over again if the photographer's camera and memory get lost on the way back to his office. What consolation to the bride and family would it be to get the money back?

Well yes and no.....

In the event that your Simply Stunning Wedding Photos do not come out, Michael Ward Photography will...

• Dryclean the Bride's dress
• Dryclean the Bridesmaid's dresses
• Dryclean/Rehire the Groom's Suit
• Dryclean/Rehire the Groomsmen's suits
• Reproduce the Brides Bouquet
• Reproduce the Bridesmaid's Bouquets
• Dryclean the "Mothers" Dresses
• Dryclean the "Fathers" Suits

AND...

• Rehire the Wedding Cars
• Rebook the Church
• Reinvite the Guests
• Have the Wedding Cake reproduced
...to redo the missing parts from the original day.

This is a classic risk reversal guarantee. But I don't think you can talk guarantee before addressing the real issue.

That issue being if it ain't in the product (or service) it won't show up in the copy. It's a marketing problem, not a copy problem of wording the guarantee. Nor one of which trick loophole gets the company off the hook, yet still seeming like they offer a guarantee.

I can have a virtual backup copy of every shot from a modern camera online, almost simultaneosly as they are being shot, sorted and in a layout of your choice you can see at any moment ...you just log in and see it as the shoot is happening. If I want I can have a second backup back in a studio location while I'm taking more shots. And I mean minute-by-minute redundant backup. Sure, if lightning strikes the photographer you might miss a few shots.

If that happens however, I don't think a refund for a couple of lost shots of horrified onlookers will be on the mind of most customers.

That is not the issue.

[marciayudkin]

• Reinvite the Guests

You must come from a different kind of background than I do. Reinviting the guests is a joke in the world I live in. There is no way in hell they would - or in many cases could - all show up again to recreate the photography. Even family. They live tens of thousands of miles away and their lives are over-scheduled. And that's part of why I find this kind of guarantee absurd.

A wedding is an unrepeatable moment in time. And that's exactly why people need a dependable photographer.

Marcia Yudkin

[John_S]

There is no way in hell they would - or in many cases could - all show up again to recreate the

And ...the point would be....? Where, pray tell, is it written (or more to the point: guaranteed) they'll show up?

I'm sorry, I thought this was about the guarantee. Specifically guarantees already being used by photographers. And, tangentially, the root cause keeping imaginative guarantees from showing up in copy. It is not about weddings. Or that special, special day. Rather it is about not ruining that day -- and that is a different matter.

HSN guarantee: "If you don't receive two compliments on [jewelry], return it."

Is HSN in the business of jewelry sales ...refunds? ...or compliments?

Last year, I ran a referral promotion for my newsletter, where I threatened to shoot a Dalmation dog if I didn’t get referrals – and I used a photo of me holding a gun against a stuffed dog’s head. In January, 1973, the cover of the National Lampoon magazine featured a similar image and “If You Don’t Buy This Magazine, We’ll Kill This Dog.”

-- Dan Kennedy

The goal, lest we forget what that is, is higher sales through guarantees. When Dan Kenedy says "Buy this whatever or I'll shoot this dog," what, precisely, is he trying to do ...get hate mail from the ASPCA or shoot a dog?

Maybe Dan Kennedy's goal was never about shooting a dog. (toy or otherwise)

The idea is not generating refunds. (Or at least begin the process of not generating refunds with every step the business takes: a.k.a. typical small business marketing). It is not wallowing in a tiny business comfort zone in white knuckled, gutless fear.

For that matter is small business marketing about keeping a small business small or growing the business so it is not so small anymore? I mean, what's the real issue here: Making small businesses or wiping them out by growing them into mid-sized or large businesses?

It seems a stupid question to ask. But I am not a small business marketing person. I am not interested in small business. I do not target small business clients. I wipe out small businesses by growing them at the expense of their tiny business competitors. Those tiny-minded business competitors I wipe out a different way.

I don't do "just enough money to keep me in beer through the weekend" marketing. Rightly or wrongly, that's what my nose tells me about "not appropriate for service businesses."

Translation: We want the benefits of a guarantee, without actually guaranteeing anything. Stay tuned, because next up is "how dare you imply we don't want to offer a guarantee." Which is not what I imply.

If you don't offer a guarantee, then don't offer one. Hey, mazel tov baby. If you are, then offer an actual guarantee. Not both.

In different terms the issue is not digging a shallow grave for the business through protecting itself from customers through we win - you lose guarantees.

[Player87]

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

When you hire a wedding photographer, which do you want?

A) Your money back if he screws everything up and ruins the memories

B) Certainty that he will NOT screw everything up

Big difference in positioning and appeal.

Best,

Brian

Excellt way of putting it.

[xtremeux]

money back guarantee is all about attracting clients by keeping away "fear of loss" here I am talking about money. Like if you are not satisfied, I will refund you 100% money.

Important thing is guarantee should be depends on products, services you offer or in which industry you falls. The importance of this product or service is also consider at here.

Like wedding is really important occasion for any one in a life. These days never back again in future. And only the photography catch these moments in photos/videos for long lasting. See, who is in the world asks money back if he is not satisfied. Because for him or her, day was over and all moments went away that never back. I guess no one! However, you may ask for refund a money but you will not recommend this photographer to anyone.

Business works on USP. Here, what my friend has done to attract a photography business. He design only one wedding photo of bride and groom very artistic and creative way. Upfront, he tells to prospects that I will give one photo of bride and groom that will never been design in future and I have never done in past. Means it is unique. This is what wedding couple looking for. And really it works for him.

Only USP/UVP works for any business. Think that what customers have other options if they don't buy product or service from me? As above example, "Unique design of "bride and groom" was a USP and it works for him.

[ARSuarez]

At one point, I owned a carpet cleaning business. This is a highly competitive market, with a very bad reputation (featured on TV bad).

I had 4 "Gold Star Service" Guarantees:

1) If we are more than 7 minutes late, we'll pay a dollar per minute

2) Out Carpet Care Technicians will be polite, courteous, and knowledgeable.

3) Working with our company will be a hassle free and painless experience. Actually, it'll be pleasant! If you feel we are causing more headaches than relieving them, please let us know at out office by speaking with a Client Care Specialist

4) The "100 + 25%" Guarantee. If you're are unhappy with the cleaning, we'll clean the carpet again - absolutely free. If you're still not satisfied, I'll gladly refund every red cent cent AND pay 25% of the fee for a competitor's cleaning service

Sometimes, If you can't guarantee ONE thing, you should guarantee several OTHER things. I don't remember who said it in the past, but they said there was always at least two things within your control. And those two things could be guaranteed to impress the customer.

Best,

Angel

[John_S]

Um ....good for you xtremeux
...?

Back to the English version of the thread -- the point of debate is what works and what is keeping a guarantee from working. Addendums and caveats are usually seen as escape clauses. They have to be very carefully worded to prevent the perception you are nullifying everything you just pretended to guarantee.

Everyone on the offerer side wants a strictly limited, every-question-asked, ironclad (to never pay out one red cent) guarantee. And that is just the way they read.

What is rarely done is changing how the [cough] service business operates to reduce refund generation. But that would be part and parcel of marketing.

Broken English aside, there is one further point. It doesn't matter what grade mediocre, strictly standard, why-do-we-even-bother guarantee every last one of your competitors offers. Else why not just scrape all the rest of the generic drivel from sites within your industry and call it a day?

Guarantees, like USPs, are not exercises in seeing what the absolute least you can get away offering, plus some CYA mousetype thrown in. But that's the way they're written.

"Gold Star Service" Guarantees:

That's not fair. You're not using the word "service" as a euphemism, as in how a hooker "services" clients.

What happened to the good old days when service meant just as good as any post office or DMV? What happened to service as something nebulous and unmeasurable, some unattainable je ne sais quoi? (And now we return to the foreign language version of our thread).

[Steven Carl Kelly]

When you're talking about a one-time event like a wedding, people don't want their money back, they want the record of their happy day (at least until the divorce).

[John_S]

When you're talking about a one-time event like a wedding, people don't want their money back

...so no guarantee? ...no possible guarantee? ...nothing you could possibly write?

Interesting, but underwhelming. You can go into great detail before the guarantee as to how you are so confident you can offer a superior guarantee.

Your track record. Your expertise. Your safeguards. These are the guarantee you'll not be using the guarantee.

A lot of the assumptions are based on there being no copy leading up to the guarantee; that the guarantee hasn't been (or couldn't be) set up by the copy. That the guarantee is at odds with everything leading up to it, like redundant instantaneous backups, testimonials as to how (miracle of miracles ...you did not lose the camera and memory stick) or other methods.

When the customer believes you are competent, through I dunno ...maybe copy writing, the guarantee makes sense. If they don't think you're competent to get a photo right or not lose the thing, then they won't be there to read the guarantee.

By this line of faulty reasoning anything worth guaranteeing will force the reader to not buy ...anything ...ever.

A guarantee is not for explaining you will not screw up. If you haven't already done that, nobody will be reading the guarantee. The guarantee is about reversing the risk of buying. (The last little bit of hesitation for people on the fence ...not hysterical bridezillas in the midst of a meltdown) It's not the same thing as never having a bizarre occurance or metaphysical certainty that goes beyond the ability of humans to offer on ...hello ...Planet Earth.

Guarantees are a meaningful promise that complements your offer. It is not the offer. Guarantees -- by their very nature -- will bring up the cognitive dissonance of something going wrong on your special, special day. Only incompetents at writing copy can't deal with that cognitive dissonance.

What exactly are you people proposing? "We screw up so often; we are so lethargic and dim witted not to mention scammy; that if we offered a guarantee that meant anything -- a guarantee that actually proded us into learning from mistakes and correcting them, instantly -- we'd be out of business in a New York minute?!"

[Steven Carl Kelly]

Originally Posted by John_S

Interesting, but underwhelming. You can go into great detail before the guarantee as to how you are so confident you can offer a superior guarantee.

Interesting, underwhelming, and absolutely true. Weddings are emotional events, not practical or sensible ones. All you have to do is ask ANY bride about ANYTHING that is ruined at her wedding, and you'll quickly find that no money-back guarantee is ever going to replace their memories.

Like life insurance, a money-back guarantee doesn't bring back your lost loved one. Now will a guarantee help you SELL more wedding packages? Perhaps. But in the end, even your money-back guarantee isn't going to turn your client in a happy one -- even after you refund the money, more than likely that bride is STILL going to talk bad about you and warn her friends to choose another provider.

[John_S]

ask ANY bride ...and you'll quickly find that no money-back guarantee is ever going to replace their memories.

Funny how I am the only one using real examples, from real photographers. In real copy. ...Going out to real prospects.

You will quickly find out people say one thing -- and do something completely different. Especially when the very real alternative, offered every day by real photographers (and I speak from experience) is "tough luck."

Let us get to the point. You're proposing the original poster get on the phone with a bride and say, "suck it up ...so sue me." Yeah, that makes the situation a lot better than what I wrote.

Like life insurance, a money-back guarantee doesn't bring back your lost loved one. Now will a guarantee help you SELL more wedding packages? Perhaps.

And you finally get what I'm saying. It's just a small part, but important.

//more than likely that bride is STILL going to talk bad about you and warn her friends to choose another provider.

To assert this, you have to Completely Disreguard Everything I Wrote. And completely MISS the point of most of it.

However, if your goal was a big fat excuse for not offering a guarantee, or a milquetoast nonguarantee, then you have succeeded in grand fashion. This strawman junk is bordering on science fiction ...or perhaps romantic comedy.

Life insurance. Photography. Weddings. Whatever. ...Screw 'em. Now that is copywriting. Much shorter than what I wrote, too. Go right ahead and use that. Build the future of your business on that. I double-dog dare you.

[Elion Makkink]

Wow. Great feedback! It really gave me some insight on this issue but I guess I'll leave the guarantee out of the salespage for now since I agree with point B. Brian makes!

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

When you hire a wedding photographer, which do you want?

A) Your money back if he screws everything up and ruins the memories

B) Certainty that he will NOT screw everything up

Big difference in positioning and appeal.

Best,

Brian

[John_S]

I guess I'll leave the guarantee out

Of course you will. Never a doubt.

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by Frank Abagnale

Wow. Great feedback! It really gave me some insight on this issue but I guess I'll leave the guarantee out of the salespage for now since I agree with point B. Brian makes!

Hey, I'm glad it was helpful to you, but my post was merely a 2 second "noodler".

John_S has given you pure gold in this thread, in great detail (far more than he usually shares).

The strongest medication often tastes the most bitter.

Best,

Brian

[Scott Gustafson]

Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly

When you're talking about a one-time event like a wedding, people don't want their money back, they want the record of their happy day (at least until the divorce).

I have a friend who is a professional photographer, who receives most of his business, and repeat business, more for his personality and promptness than for the quality of his photos. He has never offered a 100% money-back guarantee because he knows he can't control everything that happens. If your friend offers his customers a guarantee he is setting himself up for more problems. A professional stands behind their service and doesn't need a guarantee to prove their worth.
As Tommy Boy used to say, "If you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it 'guaranteed' I will."

[Elion Makkink]

Originally Posted by Scott Gustafson

I have a friend who is a professional photographer, who receives most of his business, and repeat business, more for his personality and promptness than for the quality of his photos. He has never offered a 100% money-back guarantee because he knows he can't control everything that happens. If your friend offers his customers a guarantee he is setting himself up for more problems. A professional stands behind their service and doesn't need a guarantee to prove their worth.
As Tommy Boy used to say, "If you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it 'guaranteed' I will."

Yeah that's true. It's also about branding yourself correctly. Professional photographers don't need to offer guarantees, or they wouldn't be professional at what they do

[Hans Klein]

This is an interesting discussion. And it reminds of a friend who does this.

She's really good at what she does and last year came fairly close to booking a wedding for every weekend - which considering back-end work, is WAY more than a full load.

But, this also means I get to see what she goes through when dealing with clients.

The best way to put what she goes through is...

You thought dealing with a marketer who has their financial future riding on you is tough -- well, you've never met a bride (or her family) who's entire LIFE is riding on her wedding day. It's the day the bride may have been dreaming about since she was a little girl.

I mean... has any one seen the TV show on one of those women's channels called, "Bridezilla's"? (if not, it's interesting to watch for a study of human nature).

In other words, you've got to have your sh*t together. If something goes wrong, there's a fairly good chance the photographer will feel the wrath even if he/she had nothing to do with it.

The $895 price point is a little different. You're going for people who don't really care as much about the photography. It's likely not a priority. So, the clients are a little different.

However, when you get up there, I would never rest a lot or probably ever offer a money-back guarantee.

It's much the same as a copywriter. Anything can happen. Maybe the wedding will be called off... maybe you'll do a perfect job with the pictures, but the husband who's resentful of your price will tear your work a new one... and maybe the client loves the work, but doesn't really feel like paying and begins to look for ways out.

There are a lot of issues going on regarding money, people's self-image, and family dynamics you have no control over.

This means it's important to be a professional. Show the prospect you know your stuff. And, like Brian said, let them know you've got it all handled. Nothing will go wrong. Reassure throughout the entire process (even after the big day is over).

You sell yourself based on your quality, professionalism, and your unique style no one else can match, as well as, what this means to the prospect(s) (you're often not just selling to the bride, but her family who's footing the bill).

[John_S]

This is an interesting discussion.

Not really.

I can set up a faulty argument -- pure fiction -- that people will think the website is faked, the client examples taken from others, or stock photography ...unless there's a guarantee.

That is not interesting. It's not even entertaining fiction. But I suppose I could do it.

The OP went shopping for an excuse not to offer a guarantee. He got something he liked. That's it. Anything else is discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin ... if they're ******-off at a photographer.

ARSuarez made a contribution to the thread -- with an example which could be instantly dissmised "your example is about pilfer grommets and I'm selling boxcar prongs" -- and the rest is noise.