Introducing Myself

[MilleronMarketing]

Hello warriors!

I just wanted to introduce myself. I just joined up.

I've been teaching myself copywriting, wordpress, and SEO over the last few months, and finally got around to joining this forum.

My copywriting curriculum:
How to Write a Good Advertisement
Scientific Advertising
On the Art of Writing Copy
Copywriter's Handbook
How to Write Info Products
No More Cold Calls

Other Marketing Curriculum:
Getting Everything You Can Out of All You've Got
Guerrilla Marketing
Guerrilla Marketing on the Internet
Selling the Invisible
Ziglar on Selling
Selling Your Services

[Alex Cohen]

Welcome Jeff!

Alex

[maximus242]

Originally Posted by MilleronMarketing

Hello warriors!

I just wanted to introduce myself. I just joined up.

I've been teaching myself copywriting, wordpress, and SEO over the last few months, and finally got around to joining this forum.

My copywriting curriculum:
How to Write a Good Advertisement
Scientific Advertising
On the Art of Writing Copy
Copywriter's Handbook
How to Write Info Products
No More Cold Calls

Other Marketing Curriculum:
Getting Everything You Can Out of All You've Got
Guerrilla Marketing
Guerrilla Marketing on the Internet
Selling the Invisible
Ziglar on Selling
Selling Your Services

Heres a better idea. Dont waste your time reading the books, instead, go to clickbank, look at the best performing sales letters and study whats working now. If you look at them, youll notice a very common thread that they all do things quite similarly. Theres a reason for that, its because it works.

[chooch]

Welcome to the Forum!!

Lots of great information here.

Good Lick!!

[Pusateri]

Welcome, and bravo for making a serious study of the craft.

Originally Posted by maximus242

Heres a better idea. Dont waste your time reading the books, instead, go to clickbank, look at the best performing sales letters and study whats working now. If you look at them, youll notice a very common thread that they all do things quite similarly. Theres a reason for that, its because it works.

Yes, you can learn from reading clickbank sales letters, but if that's all you ever did, you would wind up being a mimic.

Reread Scientific Advertising (seven times, per Mr. Ogilvy), pick up a copy of Tested Advertising Methods, read everything you can on sales psychology.

Then you will know WHY certain sales letters work. Styles change. Principles do not.

[Loren Woirhaye]

CB letters are useful for studying the fleeting IM market,
but if you want to go to the source look at the direct mail
stuff. Direct mail principles were/are derived without the
affliliate wildcard influence on sales numbers ("free" traffic
from affiliates"). It's simpler and more brutal when you can
know your real cost to get a sale in direct mail. This is knowable
with IM, but trends factors can throw you off the truth.

The Robert Collier book is the best, imo, but you'll probably
think it stupid and/or unreadable the first time. It is neither,
(the opposite actually) but it's virtues are illusive to the Ipod
generation. The edge to gain is in your actual ability to read.

P.S. Jeffrey Lant kicks J.C. Levinson's butt.

P.P.S. you won't waste your time with Hershcell Gordon Lewis
(unless it's looking for meaning in his films ).

[DIGITALCHAMELEON]

Welcome to the community!

Enjoy your stay!

[maximus242]

Originally Posted by Pusateri

Welcome, and bravo for making a serious study of the craft.



Yes, you can learn from reading clickbank sales letters, but if that's all you ever did, you would wind up being a mimic.

Reread Scientific Advertising (seven times, per Mr. Ogilvy), pick up a copy of Tested Advertising Methods, read everything you can on sales psychology.

Then you will know WHY certain sales letters work. Styles change. Principles do not.

Sigh* I give up, you guys keep on thinking what you like, when your conversion rates are **** then you'll know. The classics are severely misinterpreted, ive read every single one over ten times!!! >:/

I know what im talking about. He should first study what is working now, try to figure it out for himself and learn the principles through observation. Then he will understand instead of knowing.

Most people KNOW the information they read in those books but they dont UNDERSTAND them. Thats why they still get piss poor conversion rates.

Its the same method used to teach Harvard business students. Its better to learn through using your mind because you develop understanding rather than trying to "get" information thats been parroted.

If he learns through observing what makes people buy and trying to reach his own conclusions, then seeing what other people have observed, he will understand why they say the things they do, instead of just reading them and having it as knowledge.

What I thought Gary Halbert was talking about when I read his stuff 5 years ago and what he was really talking about were two completely different things because I didnt understand it. I KNEW the information by heart but I didnt understand. If I read the same information now, I have a completely different understanding of it than when I began.

Furthermore all of the ads in the classics no longer run because they no longer work. They have been replaced. The marketplace changes and how consumers buy constantly evolves.

The world now is a different place, how people purchase and the experience as a consumer is different. We face different obstacles now than Caples and Ogilvy did 50 years ago.

If you just read the classics you will know how to write great copy that would of worked 50 years ago but achieves mediocre results now. If you dont believe me go ask Clayton or Bencivenga.

[Ross James]

Maximus: I don't think anyone here doubts you at all, In fact I like your advice a lot, makes a lot of sense to me. I dont think Mark or anyone disagrees with you either, I think he is just trying to put the "why" into the "how" clickbank stuff works.

Otherwise you'd be a fine linguistic in understanding how to sell in todays markets, but you really wouldn't understand what it is your doing, respectfully.

I'm also a believer that one should pay honor to it's originating teachers, always. I'm going over some of Napoleaon Hills stuff now and I'm just amazed at how much he knew then, and how ahead of his time he really was. Not that he is specific to copywriting but just universal to human sciences / nature. There is something to be gained either way really.

Ross

[Pusateri]

Originally Posted by maximus242

Sigh* I give up, you guys keep on thinking what you like, when your conversion rates are **** then you'll know. The classics are severely misinterpreted, ive read every single one over ten times!!! >:/

I know what im talking about. He should first study what is working now, try to figure it out for himself and learn the principles through observation. Then he will understand instead of knowing.

Most people KNOW the information they read in those books but they dont UNDERSTAND them. Thats why they still get piss poor conversion rates.

Its the same method used to teach Harvard business students. Its better to learn through using your mind because you develop understanding rather than trying to "get" information thats been parroted.

If he learns through observing what makes people buy and trying to reach his own conclusions, then seeing what other people have observed, he will understand why they say the things they do, instead of just reading them and having it as knowledge.

What I thought Gary Halbert was talking about when I read his stuff 5 years ago and what he was really talking about were two completely different things because I didnt understand it. I KNEW the information by heart but I didnt understand. If I read the same information now, I have a completely different understanding of it than when I began.

Furthermore all of the ads in the classics no longer run because they no longer work. They have been replaced. The marketplace changes and how consumers buy constantly evolves.

The world now is a different place, how people purchase and the experience as a consumer is different. We face different obstacles now than Caples and Ogilvy did 50 years ago.

If you just read the classics you will know how to write great copy that would of worked 50 years ago but achieves mediocre results now. If you dont believe me go ask Clayton or Bencivenga.

When my conversion rates are ****?

Damn. I know the way people communicate has changed and my antiquated skills are certainly not up to the task of saying something in a way a 21st century conversion master will understand. Fortunately I have your sig to analyze and guide me.

B*tch! I convert like a mutha f*cka!

I get your point about knowing and understanding. Absolutely. True learning happens when the knowledge is applied. But developing the knowledge base has to come first. Would you tell a wannabe surgeon or engineer to just observe what works and figure it out for himself?

The principles that worked in the past work today. Period. The reason ads from fifty years ago wouldn't work today is because visual and linguistic styles have changed. Style is completely separate from principle.

Here's a challenge: show me anything that's working in sales letters today and I will show you how the same principle was being used 50-100 years ago.

[Ross James]

Mark: I take it you don't have regular sleeping patterns either. Sorry to get off base with the discussion. Keep on keeping on.

Ross

[maximus242]

Originally Posted by Pusateri

When my conversion rates are ****?

Damn. I know the way people communicate has changed and my antiquated skills are certainly not up to the task of saying something in a way a 21st century conversion master will understand. Fortunately I have your sig to analyze and guide me.

B*tch! I convert like a mutha f*cka!

I get your point about knowing and understanding. Absolutely. True learning happens when the knowledge is applied. But developing the knowledge base has to come first. Would you tell a wannabe surgeon or engineer to just observe what works and figure it out for himself?

The principles that worked in the past work today. Period. The reason ads from fifty years ago wouldn't work today is because visual and linguistic styles have changed. Style is completely separate from principle.

Here's a challenge: show me anything that's working in sales letters today and I will show you how the same principle was being used 50-100 years ago.

Believe whatever you like, doesnt affect me.

I tried to give some very profitable advice, if you dont want to listen doesnt really bother me. Especially when you consider 90% of the copywriters out there have all studied the same books and are doing the same things. Leaves this gaping wide hole of opportunity.

If you dont want to listen, dont. I dont make any extra money by having you follow my advice.

[MESophie]

Welcome to the forums

[bilzz]

Welcome to this forum .. you can get lot of knowledge from here .good luck

[travlinguy]

Originally Posted by maximus242

Heres a better idea. Dont waste your time reading the books, instead, go to clickbank, look at the best performing sales letters and study whats working now. If you look at them, youll notice a very common thread that they all do things quite similarly. Theres a reason for that, its because it works.

Great idea, if you want to be a one-trick pony. Copywriting is a massive field. Clickbank will give you a little exposure in a few niches. If that's all you want, then, by all means limit your study to CB pages.

You're on the right track with the books you've listed. Just as important as study is reading and writing. Read everything you can regardless of what it is. Reading a lot helps to make the cadence of writing natural to you. Same goes for writing. Set a goal to write a certain number of words (2000 a day for me) every day and stick to it. Good luck.

[maximus242]

Yes but hes an online copywriter, and most of his work is going to come from the IM niche if hes working through warrior forum. And so, the first thing he should learn is how to sell his clients products.

Most copywriters specialize, Makepeace for example specializes in health and investment newsletters. Caples and Ogilvy primarily did magazine advertising. Carlton does golf and martial arts. Harlan does mainly Biz op and Hypnosis. They can all sell other stuff but they do exceptionally well at things they do a lot of.

Furthermore the underlying persuasion structure works the same no matter what niche your in so he can study an IM letter and take all the tactics which have been tested and proven to work and use them on some little niche. Which is why swiping works.

You know you claim to study the classics but forget the single most important principle taught:

Trust test results above all else. Opinions are irrelevant.

Ah man I dono how you guys make any money with all the dogma you follow. I only trust what has been proven with sales.

The first rule of the bible of direct response, from Claude Hopkins. Trust only what has been proven to increase sales by testing.

Not follow Guru dogma from the sky. Mark Joyner tested out a lot of Gurus claims a long time ago and found much of their advice LOWERED sales or proved to be entirely unreliable.

Testing is the only thing which can be trusted. I dont believe anything people tell me, I only trust what has been proven to work scientifically with test results I can see. I know that the top letters on click bank have been proven to sell. Thats all that counts. What makes the sale in the market now.

[travlinguy]

It's good that you have everything so nicely figured out, right down to your really cool and compelling sig statement: *Buy Now Or Die B*tch!* How to win friends and influence people, huh?

As far as making money with copywriting, you're limiting yourself thinking the fast-buck IM model is something to emulate. So it goes. Carry on...

[Ross James]

I do not agree Maximus...Not this time.

I dont believe anything people tell me, I only trust what has been proven to work scientifically with test results I can see.

Yeah because you shouldn't trust a guy like John outside of selling in golf and martial arts markets?

Or makepeace because he's only hip to health and investment...

Then there's Ogilvy and Caples... They only did magazine ads...

Who's Harlan?

... I see what you're saying but I think you're generalizing too much...

Sometimes... It's not always the data that creates the territory of the copywriter...sure it's nice to look at numbers...

At the end of the day... specialized or not a copywriter is a copywriter...

Best,

Ross

[maximus242]

This is the thing, I still listen to what John Carlton says, Halbert, Gary Bencivenga and Makepeace, im not saying anything against that.

What I am saying in regards to specific opinions about copy is that I trust test results instead of opinions. This is the foundation of Scientific Advertising, that sales and not creative opinions are what count.

By Gurus I was not talking about copywriting gurus but marketing ones.

"As far as making money with copywriting, you're limiting yourself thinking the fast-buck IM model is something to emulate. So it goes. Carry on... "

For online its one of the best sources of test results as to what is increasing sales now. They do huge volume and test constantly. The competition is incredibly fierce. Weight loss and investment niches are also excellent.

At the end of the day only one question matters in direct response: What is going to get the highest ROI?

The only way to know that absolutely is through scientific testing. You can talk and debate theory day and night but at the end of the day it only comes down to one thing. How much money is sitting in their pocket.

[Rezbi]

Originally Posted by travlinguy

Great idea, if you want to be a one-trick pony. Copywriting is a massive field. Clickbank will give you a little exposure in a few niches. If that's all you want, then, by all means limit your study to CB pages.

You're on the right track with the books you've listed. Just as important as study is reading and writing. Read everything you can regardless of what it is. Reading a lot helps to make the cadence of writing natural to you. Same goes for writing. Set a goal to write a certain number of words (2000 a day for me) every day and stick to it. Good luck.

Not only that. By reading you also learn the rules.

You can look at all the sales letters on clickbank or anywhere else., but it's not called studying if you don't know what you're looking for.

Books provide the grounding needed beforehand.

Imagine watching a surgeon work and then try doing it yourself, just because you've seen him do it.

[dezchamps]

Welcome to the Forum - Look forward to interacting with you and sharing knowledge!

[MilleronMarketing]

Wow, I never imagined a simple "Hey there I'm me" post would start so much controversy.

Maybe I should go into PR.

My theory is and has been to find out what successful people do or did, and then do that. Not literally the same, you understand, but in a manner suitable to the new technology.

[Ross James]

Originally Posted by MilleronMarketing

Wow, I never imagined a simple "Hey there I'm me" post would start so much controversy.

Maybe I should go into PR.

My theory is and has been to find out what successful people do or did, and then do that. Not literally the same, you understand, but in a manner suitable to the new technology.

The reason why this happened is because you created a thread right in this here copywriting section.

NOBODY creates threads here EVER, without someones butt being hurt in the process - most of the time; so as soon as a new one opens more than likely all hell breaks loose soon after.

... I think it's great.. I think part of learning anything should be fun and entertaining.

here is a big warm

WELCOME!

now get over yourself

[PromoAds]

Welcome to Warrior Forum, with time and dedications...you will get lots of useful and great information here that will be help with your journey.

PromoAds

[Ross James]

Originally Posted by PromoAds

Welcome to Warrior Forum, with time and dedications...you will get lots of useful and great information here that will be help with your journey.

PromoAds

I agree. Here is a tip. when doing research.. sort the threads by page views or replies... You'll dig up a bunch of gold doing that.

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by MilleronMarketing

Hello warriors!

I just wanted to introduce myself. I just joined up.

I've been teaching myself copywriting, wordpress, and SEO over the last few months, and finally got around to joining this forum.

My copywriting curriculum:
How to Write a Good Advertisement
Scientific Advertising
On the Art of Writing Copy
Copywriter's Handbook
How to Write Info Products
No More Cold Calls

Other Marketing Curriculum:
Getting Everything You Can Out of All You've Got
Guerrilla Marketing
Guerrilla Marketing on the Internet
Selling the Invisible
Ziglar on Selling
Selling Your Services

Welcome aboard Jeff!

Now it's time to take what you've studied and put it into action.

Best of luck,

Mike

[caksut]

It's nice to meet you
welcome, let's join and share

[tamarindcandy]

Hi, and welcome!

[Pusateri]

Originally Posted by MilleronMarketing

Wow, I never imagined a simple "Hey there I'm me" post would start so much controversy.

Maybe I should go into PR.

My theory is and has been to find out what successful people do or did, and then do that. Not literally the same, you understand, but in a manner suitable to the new technology.

Yes, all the principles of persuasion have to be molded into forms that fit your medium and audience.

Personally, I love the rough and tumble debate here. Adrenaline is the cement of memory. Getting the blood up helps us learn.

If we make an audacious statement we should expect to be challenged on it and offer better proof than, "I know what I'm talking about." We wouldn't expect our sales letters to be taken seriously without proof elements, why should this be different?

[Ken_Caudill]

Originally Posted by Pusateri

Yes, all the principles of persuasion have to be molded into forms that fit your medium and audience.

You made my day with that statement.

Apparently Clickbank customers are Iowa farmers headed to the post office to pick up their mail in 1911.

"Look at this, Martha. I can quit farmin' and make $2011.23 a day sittin' around in my long johns."

[Pusateri]

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

You made my day with that statement.

Apparently Clickbank customers are Iowa farmers headed to the post office to pick up their mail in 1911.

"Look at this, Martha. I can quit farmin' and make $2011.23 a day sittin' around in my long johns."

Yup. Might as well fish Elbert Hubbard out of the North Atlantic and stick a pen in his hand.

[sethczerepak]

Originally Posted by chooch

.

Good Lick!!

Your Freudian slip is showing.

Welcome Jeff!

[Coreyg]

g'day MilleronMarketing and Warriors


Cheers
Corey