Can ANYONE become a GREAT copywriter?? Or are they actually a ELITE breed?

[rammonster]

Hello warriors,

I am halfway through john Carlton's course, i am STUNNED by what i have heard so far, Everywhere i look i can see good/bad advertising, i am seeing things with a very unique perspective. I am seriously thinking about taking copywriting VERY seriously and honing my skills. The whole idea of "romancing" with your readers and getting them to do what you want them to do just excites me.

The question on my mind is, What is a good way to get started, i mean, how do you start "training" yourself as a good copywriter. How can i start? I mean i did telesales for a year almost? It was a Australian process "bargain breaks" if you live in Australia you've probably gotten the following call:

".....you can get 10 nights of accommodation in 3 to 5 star hotels anywhere in Australia for just $109....."

I made a decent amount of sales, talked to a LOT of different people... we would go through 400 numbers in a day. So yea.... I've got a good idea on how to deal with common objections... and some other stuff. So, i was just wondering if this is a thing that someone like me can peruse?

Thank you for your help.

Cheers,
kunal

[Bruce Wedding]

I believe most can become ADEQUATE copywriters, but not elite. It is possible to follow a cookie-cutter formula and create adequate copy. But to create a super smooth flow, to empathize with your prospect completely and push the buttons that will incite a burning desire... most will never achieve that.

[travlinguy]

Originally Posted by rammonster

The question on my mind is, What is a good way to get started, i mean, how do you start "training" yourself as a good copywriter.

Understand that any writer doesn't simply turn it on and off. Serious writers are always writers. This isn't meant to be offensive but look at your post. You've used lower case letters where upper are appropriate. Periods were question marks are warranted. There's more but you get it.

Sure, there are copywriting courses and mentors out there that will tell you this stuff doesn't matter. That's BS. So why do they say it? Because they'd get no takers for their training if they told the truth about the basics of writing. Consequently, I see copy for review on this forum that looks more like a sales oriented text message than a sales letter.

When you hold yourself out as a writer you need to realize that people will notice stuff like that. People will say that grammar and spelling are probably not as important in the fast-buck IM writing arena. I'd agree. Many in this audience have no clue about grammar, spelling and the rest so it probably doesn't matter much in IM.

But for me, it's about always learning and improving. And that means always putting out your best stuff whether it's a post here or a $5000 letter for a client. I see it like this: doing it right is never going to hurt you but doing it wrong will from time to time. The result is lost sales. Good luck.

[rammonster]

Umm... i write way better on my keyboard....always have. My new laptop's buttons are too close together and dont "sink" as much, so im still getting used to typing on it.

But yea, i guess my grammar is kinda blunt. I'll definitely work on writing better. Really appreciate the input, its good to know your weak points, At least you know what you need to work on.

Cheers,
kunal

[perryny]

"Can ANYONE become a GREAT __________?? Or are they actually a ELITE breed?"

_______________ = copywriter / photographer / chef / musician / web designer / salesman / baseball player / painter / marketer / architect / fashion designer / computer programmer / etc., etc.

With a strong enough desire + lots of study and plenty of practice, just about anyone has the ability to become great at just about anything.

There are those of course that have natural talent. If they're fortunate enough to discover that talent and have a strong desire to pursue the field, then they will have a shorter path towards becoming the "Elite".

But you do not need natural talent to become "Great" at anything. Desire, determination, practice and an inability to give up will get you there.

[Ken_Caudill]

As I've said before, if you can't write, don't.

Everyone will be happier.

[perryny]

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

As I've said before, if you can't write, don't.

Everyone will be happier.

Yup... might as well not even try...

YouTube - Famous Failures

[Ken_Caudill]

Originally Posted by perryny

Yup... might as well not even try...

YouTube - Famous Failures

Might as well not subject people to it until you learn. I don't want to listen to people practice the fiddle, either.

[perryny]

So, is Kunal supposed to learn, practice and try to improve? Or is he supposed to just give up because someone said he can't?

And when is his copy good enough to subject people to it?

[MilleronMarketing]

>CAN< yes, >WILL< no. There are still barriers to entry. People are lazy. It takes study and practice.

I am stunned on an almost daily basis by the volume of bad grammar and misspellings of common words, to say nothing of ignorance of persuasive writing techniques.

[rammonster]

Originally Posted by perryny

So, is Kunal supposed to learn, practice and try to improve? Or is he supposed to just give up because someone said he can't?

And when is his copy good enough to subject people to it?

Hahahah... i wasn't going to give up just because one person says i am no good. I've learned to learn from my mistakes, do better. I am a high school dropout. Everyone in my family said i wouldn't have a life. Now i make enough to shut them up. I am pursuing copywriting, if people doubt me, i use it as motivation. Nothing is more satisfying than proving those people wrong, i use it to make myself "angry" and FORCE myself to do better.

Cheers,
kunal

[Ken_Caudill]

Originally Posted by perryny

So, is Kunal supposed to learn, practice and try to improve? Or is he supposed to just give up because someone said he can't?

And when is his copy good enough to subject people to it?

I would advise him to learn basic composition, experiment with selling products for his own profit, and hang out his shingle once his products start to sell. A good transition page to an affiliate product can make a writer more money than writing a sales page for a client.

Writing for yourself gives you the opportunity to experiment and find out what works. When you can write copy that consistently sells, you're a direct sales copywriter.

Sure, there are people with sales talent who can write good sales copy containing structural mistakes. They are few and far between and usually selling their own products. The smart ones hire editors to fix them.

You can't call yourself a professional if you don't understand basics.

[Don Halbert]

I'm pretty special...I think.

"No one thinks about you as much as you do. For example I'm not thinking about you right now but I bet you are."

[OnlineMasterMind]

They are an elite breed but I believe copywriters with less natural ability can achieve similar results.

The best copywriters are like artists. They have the midas touch. They can break all the rules and still achieve staggering conversion rates.

In my experience, elite copywriters have it running through their veins. Yes, I know that sounds a little darwinistic perhaps but I have yet to meet a highly successful copywriter who disproves that. Personalities vary greatly, but the best tend to be ultra confident (even if they appear quiet and withdrawn) and have no qualms about asking for what they want. They are marketers through and through. It's who they are.

Successful copywriters with less natural talent need to be more like scientists and focus on applying proven fundamentals. Less natural talent also normally means you are going to have to invest more time into creating your ads/letters, along with being more committed to testing and optimizing.

Just like some people have zero chance of becoming an NBA center, some people with their god given abilities simply have zero chance of being as good of copywriter as Gary Bencivenga.

But like I said, that doesn't mean they can't eventually achieve similar conversion rates - it's just gonna take more work.

[Oxbloom]

Anyone can become a very effective copywriter, assuming he can write.

Don't worry about "great." It's pretty subjective to begin with. But more importantly, in this line of work, it's probably not worth the extra effort it will take to make the leap.

Once you're competent, your income is pretty much only limited by your own ambition.

Yes, you can theoretically become the next Gary Bencivenga, and pull down five million dollars on a single letter.

Or, you could settle for being the next guy-who-read-Carlton's-whole-guide-and-did-what-it-said. Then, instead of spending twenty more years getting Bencivenganly good, spend that time promoting things. You'll get a little better and a lot richer along the way.

[perryny]

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

I would advise him to learn basic composition, experiment with selling products for his own profit, and hang out his shingle once his products start to sell. A good transition page to an affiliate product can make a writer more money than writing a sales page for a client.

Writing for yourself gives you the opportunity to experiment and find out what works. When you can write copy that consistently sells, you're a direct sales copywriter.

Sure, there are people with sales talent who can write good sales copy containing structural mistakes. They are few and far between and usually selling their own products. The smart ones hire editors to fix them.

You can't call yourself a professional if you don't understand basics.

All sound, solid advice. Just very different from "if you can't write, don't."

[Ken_Caudill]

Originally Posted by perryny

All sound, solid advice. Just very different from "if you can't write, don't."

Nope. If you can't sing, don't. If you can't write, don't. If you can't drive, don't.

That doesn't mean you can't learn.

People who promise that people who cannot write a paragraph can succeed as copywriters piss me off.

[Rezbi]

Bencivenga became great after 10 years. Doesn't sound like a natural to me.

He worked hard to get there. And so can others.

[ARSuarez]

You know, for some reason... This all makes me think there should be an actual
copywriting bootcamp.

Like, an intense one. They have you running 5 miles without stopping while thinking up between 100 and 250 headlines for male potency supplement. And then, they have you write a lead for your letter while doing pushups, one end of the pen between your teeth.

The fastest way to become a physically fit AND competent copywriter. Just saying.

Regards,

Angel

[Rezbi]

Originally Posted by ARSuarez

You know, for some reason... This all makes me think there should be an actual
copywriting bootcamp.

Like, an intense one. They have you running 5 miles without stopping while thinking up between 100 and 250 headlines for male potency supplement. And then, they have you write a lead for your letter while doing pushups, one end of the pen between your teeth.

The fastest way to become a physically fit AND competent copywriter. Just saying.

Regards,

Angel

Good idea. Let's do it.

Who's in?

[mindmarketing]

How do you get to Carnegie Hall?

Natural ability supplemented with a hell of a lot of practice.

[ARSuarez]

Originally Posted by Rezbi

Good idea. Let's do it.

Who's in?

Let's do this Rezbi.

We'll probably end up violating some laws of ethical treatment of other human beings.

Personally, I drink 12 raw eggs every morning before running 4 miles with The Collier Letter Book, everything by Caples, Hopkins, Breakthrough Advertising by Schwartz, and my entire copy of The Quick-Start Copy System tied to my back.

And that's only after spending 3 years writing out - by longhand - the most successful ads I could find. I did it until my fingers literally bled and I had to go to a hospital.

The Doctor there would not treat me until I could recite the entire Halbert coat-of-arms letter and Sackheim "Do You Make These Mistakes" ad word for word while in extreme pain.

(As an aside to the OP... this isn't all just ranting and raving on my part. This is meant to show that with work and dedicated effort, you can become very good. Being a great copywriter isn't difficult - it's tedious. For some more than others).

Regards,

Angel

[danny9]

According to Malcolm Gladwell, all you need to do is practice for 10,000 hours.

Anyone who can find the focus and desire to stick with copywriting for that long can be great. Somehow, I believe it's true.

[Victor Edson]

If copywriters are so elit, they wouldn't make so many silly spelling mistakes.

Any troll on Youtube could tell you tat.

[mindmarketing]

If SEO guys were so elite we'd all be ranked #1 right now.

Any troll on YouTube could tell you that.

[Oxbloom]

Originally Posted by danny9

According to Malcolm Gladwell, all you need to do is practice for 10,000 hours.

Anyone who can find the focus and desire to stick with copywriting for that long can be great. Somehow, I believe it's true.

I submit that this is *not* the premise of Gladwell's book.

His (actually, Ericsson's) "10,000 hour rule" is meant to be a benchmark...an amount of practice or participation it takes someone to become successful at some complex and competitive field of endeavor. If that's sufficient to prove "greatness," then so be it. But I feel his premise applies to a .200 hitting shortstop with a five year career in the majors as much as it applies to Albert Pujols.

Naturally, he cherry picks famous, world class examples, because that sells books better than the study of the really, REALLY competent tax accountant would.

But I suggest this:

A whole lot of practice AND a whole lot of talent = greatness.

Either a whole lot of practice OR a whole lot of talent, but not both = competence.

Anything less = incompetence or failure.

I feel like I know, including online acquaintances, about a half dozen people who I sincerely believe could become Bencivengas with ten solid years' practice.

I feel like I know a whole lot more who couldn't.

Maybe we're just referring to different things when we say the word "great."

(Ed. note: I say this as a .200 hitting shortstop in the world of professional writing.)

[Bruce Wedding]

Originally Posted by Victor Edson

If copywriters are so elit(sic), they wouldn't make so many silly spelling mistakes.

Any troll on Youtube could tell you tat(sic).

Too funny.

[Rezbi]

Originally Posted by ARSuarez

Let's do this Rezbi.

We'll probably end up violating some laws of ethical treatment of other human beings.

Personally, I drink 12 raw eggs every morning before running 4 miles with The Collier Letter Book, everything by Caples, Hopkins, Breakthrough Advertising by Schwartz, and my entire copy of The Quick-Start Copy System tied to my back.

And that's only after spending 3 years writing out - by longhand - the most successful ads I could find. I did it until my fingers literally bled and I had to go to a hospital.

The Doctor there would not treat me until I could recite the entire Halbert coat-of-arms letter and Sackheim "Do You Make These Mistakes" ad word for word while in extreme pain.

(As an aside to the OP... this isn't all just ranting and raving on my part. This is meant to show that with work and dedicated effort, you can become very good. Being a great copywriter isn't difficult - it's tedious. For some more than others).

Regards,

Angel

Uhuh. I see.

So you're still learning, huh?

Let me know when you've got a few more years behind you and you're actually eating a copy of each of those books a day instead of just hanging them off your back, along with the eggs. Then we'll talk.

You know what they say: You are what you eat.

[summer1217]

Most of all, really, write on something that are of interests to you. I can't imagine some people writing about a topic they have no interest on at all! You either could be wasting your time and write with less quality. Just my one cent. :-)

[The Copy Nazi]

Gary Halbert said it was easy to write salesletters. Like this -


1. Say something that gets attention ("Ex-hooker blackmails internet marketing guru into giving her his push-button system that makes her a millionaire in seven days")



2. Tell them why they should be interested ("Dude...you can quit your job at McDonalds and be swanning around Miami in a Rolls-Royce in no time flat. Would I lie?")


3. Tell them why they should believe what you are saying is true ("Here are all my Clickbank and PayPal earnings shots Dude. I swear they're not shopped")



4. Prove it is true ("Don't believe me? OK here's shots of my superyacht, my Maserati, my mansion and my supermodel girlfriend")



5. Itemize and describe all benefits ("Do no work. Just lie on the beach all day and you're a millionaire")



6. Tell the moron how to order ("Click that button")



7. Tell him to order now or he'll miss out - 'cause the page is definitely coming down soon and is limited to 500 sales ("Dude - would I lie?)

[ARSuarez]

Originally Posted by Rezbi

Uhuh. I see.

So you're still learning, huh?

Let me know when you've got a few more years behind you and you're actually eating a copy of each of those books a day instead of just hanging them off your back, along with the eggs. Then we'll talk.

You know what they say: You are what you eat.

You're a real man, Rezbi.

Sometimes, I burn the books and pour the ashes into my OJ.

Does that qualify?

[Michael55555]

Yes. Anyone can become great and elite at perhaps anything... it might just take education, patience, practice, learning, and perseverance. It can be done though, it seems to me.

[danielsteven]

I believe anyone can become elite if they put in the time...the problem is most won't

[amo992]

It takes 10,000 hours to become elite in any skill you want to master.

[Happy_Balance]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

...push the buttons that will incite a burning desire...

• What about plain, straight-forward honesty and enthusiasm?
• Can a genuine approach succeed, or do all 'great marketers' need to be button-pushers?

[Oxbloom]

Originally Posted by Happy_Balance

• What about plain, straight-forward honesty and enthusiasm?
• Can a genuine approach succeed, or do all 'great marketers' need to be button-pushers?

When you can push the buttons with straight-forward honesty and enthusiasm, it will be time for you to leave the temple.

[Happy_Balance]

Originally Posted by Oxbloom

When you can push the buttons with straight-forward honesty and enthusiasm, it will be time for you to leave the temple.

Interesting
Can I ask you to 'evaluate' something I wrote last night, it takes < 5 minutes.
(If "yes" I'll send you a quick PM)
Thanks

[Kay King]

If copywriters are so "elit", they wouldn't make so many silly spelling mistakes.

Why are there so many mistakes? "I meant to do that - I'm talking to the market in their language". They are selling to people with an aversion to the letter "e".

[Dexx]

Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi

Gary Halbert said it was easy to write salesletters. Like this -


1. Say something that gets attention ("Ex-hooker blackmails internet marketing guru into giving her his push-button system that makes her a millionaire in seven days")

Is it sad that headline makes me wish there was more to read? lol

Sounds like a great story to be heard! (with JC and others discuss as being the key to a successful sales letter)


To the original poster: "Can anyone become a great copywriter?"

Answer: John Carlton has devoted 30+ years to becoming a "great copywriter," the question is are you willing to do the same? Then you have your answer.

Tiger Woods didn't just pick up a golf club one day and start swingin' ...

~Dexx

[Rexibit]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

I believe most can become ADEQUATE copywriters, but not elite. It is possible to follow a cookie-cutter formula and create adequate copy. But to create a super smooth flow, to empathize with your prospect completely and push the buttons that will incite a burning desire... most will never achieve that.

Anyone can become anything they want to be, it's just that most won't; either because of social norms, barriers to entry, they don't have the drive to see patterns and adapt, or they're just lazy. Saying that all the majority of people can achieve is adequacy in something is a logical fallacy based off of common human behavior.

Anyhoo, enough with pointing that out - onto my actual point

Copywriting is just a spin on a type of marketing. All marketing has a pattern. Once you are able to see that pattern, then you're able to "bend it to your will" so-to-speak.

To find that pattern, you have to have develop the ability to see it in whatever niche you're entering and then anticipate how your words will trigger the desired response in the reader. Since most people are either ignorant of that foresight or just don't care to develop it, there aren't that many great copywriters.

Still, anyone can develop that skill, they just have to have the drive.

[rammonster]

Originally Posted by Dexx

To the original poster: "Can anyone become a great copywriter?"

Answer: John Carlton has devoted 30+ years to becoming a "great copywriter," the question is are you willing to do the same? Then you have your answer.

Tiger Woods didn't just pick up a golf club one day and start swingin' ...

~Dexx

My gaming team had been dying to go pro for 8 years. we practiced together for 8 hours a day perfecting our skills. Finally, we've got a local cell phone company to sponsor our team. So yea, if dedication is all it takes. I am ready to work as hard as i can and get really good at this. I mean i can lock myself up in my room for hours like a crazy artist. I once played counter strike for 24 hours straight until i could figure out why i wasn't able get consistent head shots and now i am so good that people actually think i cheat. I'm not bragging or anything but, yea...if i set my focus towards something, i go crazy with it. Its like a obsession, its this insane itch that has to be scratched.

Cheers,
kunal

[Oxbloom]

Originally Posted by Happy_Balance

Interesting
Can I ask you to 'evaluate' something I wrote last night, it takes < 5 minutes.
(If "yes" I'll send you a quick PM)
Thanks

You're welcome to send it. I don't promise I'll be able to take a look until tonight, though.

[wrcato2]

Originally Posted by rammonster

Hahahah... i wasn't going to give up just because one person says i am no good. I've learned to learn from my mistakes, do better. I am a high school dropout. Everyone in my family said i wouldn't have a life. Now i make enough to shut them up. I am pursuing copywriting, if people doubt me, i use it as motivation. Nothing is more satisfying than proving those people wrong, i use it to make myself "angry" and FORCE myself to do better.

Cheers,
kunal

My dad always made a qoute "If at first you don't succeed... try, try again".

You can do it!

If you want to write great copy study the masters. One thing I have noticed about master copy writers, they all suck in part, but they master their part.

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by Dexx

Tiger Woods didn't just pick up a golf club one day and start swingin' ...

~Dexx

I heard he picked up something else and started swingin'

[davechan]

I find that the best copy writing really comes from emotion. If you can feel what you are writing about, it comes across in the copy. Eloquence aside, the people who read your writings are the ones who are the best judges of the authenticity and the emotions evoked. So, in my opinion, speak from the heart and it will come across as authentic and trustworthy ... which, in my mind, translates to good copy writing.

[Rezbi]

Originally Posted by davechan

I find that the best copy writing really comes from emotion. If you can feel what you are writing about, it comes across in the copy. Eloquence aside, the people who read your writings are the ones who are the best judges of the authenticity and the emotions evoked. So, in my opinion, speak from the heart and it will come across as authentic and trustworthy ... which, in my mind, translates to good copy writing.

Not really. Good copywriting is the type that makes your cash register ring.

That is the ONLY thing that matters.

[SundayForever]

Everything is difficult at the beginning! You need to make your mind and your heart to do it! I think it could be easy after a long try!

[Kevin Rogers]

The best comment yet, in my opinion, is that "greatness" is subjective, so striving for it is a frail wish.

Also have to agree with the comment that you're always being judged by what and HOW you write - especially here, where future clients lurk much more than you think.

Your grammar and punctuation is atrocious, dude. Believe me, I make plenty of mistakes (probably make a few in this post) but you've at least got to go back and cap the "i" if you want to be taken seriously as a writer.

With that out of the way... you've got some things going for you that make me believe you could do well - if you're serious:

1. You take criticism well. A tough skin is at least as important (if not more) as natural writing ability. People who get pissy at the chirping of their peers will have their heads split clean open when a client calls screaming that your crap copy is losing him "a hundred thousand dollars an hour!" (No matter how untrue it is, it's a gut twist for any writer who cares about what they do)

2. You have some "in the trenches" sales experience. If you took the telemarketing gig seriously at all, and got jacked over turning a stiff prospect into a lap cat to close the deal, then you just may be a real closer. That will get you further along than a masters in English every time.

Now, just to let you know that I'm speaking from experience here, I've taught John Carlton's SWS one-on-one in the mentoring sessions to over 100 students. Is it the "end all be all" course?

No... none of them are.

But I do believe it's the best course for quickly learning the fundamental elements of a strong ad from a proven master.

I also like what you said in your OP about how the course has awakened you to all the good and bad ads we encounter every day. It is damned exciting to suddenly wear those goggles, isn't it?

You asked how to become "great" at persuading readers to take action...

Here's what I know it takes to become a successful freelance copywriter (based on the handful of copywriters I know who qualify for the "greatness" title):

1. You have to LOVE writing.

Sure, you can hate writing and still put together a "good enough" ad for yourself, but you'll never find your groove as a pro if the act of writing doesn't satisfy you viscerally. Why torture yourself like that?

2. Those who get good, tend to get good fast.

Now, before everyone starts citing examples to the contrary, let me say that when Bencivenga says his ads were "horrible" for years, consider his standard. (Plus, he stayed employed, so it had to be at least passable.) The difference is, with the Internet, we get to test our stuff immediately now, so if you suck, you'll know quickly and if you're good, you'll get even better quickly.

Point is... if you're still posting "can I be great at this" threads here a year from now; hang it up.

3. "Making it" as a freelancer requires much more than the ability to convert a sale.

Getting results for your clients is only the first prerequisite. The real job is client management. Brutal grind learning the steps to that dance. If you survive it, you can have a relatively peaceful business life. But - if your sane - your immediate goal will be to move beyond client work.

I'm fortunate to have great clients, but learning to filter out the ones I'm not a good match with (and achieving a level where I'm fortunate enough not to need them), took a good year off my life and all the hair from my head.

Good news is, if you handle your business with class, own your mistakes and learn to be "The Adult in the Room" (greatest and most difficult lesson my mentors like Montello and Carlton ever taught me)... you will get to a place where partnering with your best clients just makes more sense for all parties.

That's the stepping stone to real freedom. Until then, no matter how staggering your fees, you're still trading hours for dollars. Not the prize we're after.

But I'm wandering out past the buoy now...

The answer to your question is: Yes, you can be great! And the first step is capping your "i's".

All the best,

Kevin

[Chris Moore]

From the look of your post, I can tell that you're a stylish writer, so I would say you're halfway there...

I think the best way to become a good copywriter is by studying material from other great copywriters and do some reverse engineering.

[Rezbi]

Originally Posted by Chris Moore

From the look of your post, I can tell that you're a stylish writer, so I would say you're halfway there...

I think the best way to become a good copywriter is by studying material from other great copywriters and do some reverse engineering.

I strongly disagree.

Why would you waste time trying to discover things for yourself when there are enough people out there who could teach you the ropes?

Of course, if you've got time to waste and don't mind at least doubling your learning curve...