"New" Copy vs. "Old" Copy -- Is There A Winner?

[MRMagMark]

Recently, I came across this copywriter's sales page:

The Middle Finger

I am noticing more of this type of writing from younger copywriters. Since I'm still learning how to distinguish good copy from bad, I had a few questions.

1. Is this good copy?
2. Is this the future of copy?
3. Do you think it sells?

Better yet, if you have proof that it outpulls traditional copy, I'd love to hear about it.

I don't go for trends. I go for results. I don't care how "ugly" or how hated long copy is. All I know is that it works.

I realize that the copy should take into consideration the audience, and the product, so for all I know, maybe this type of copy is working.

I'm also not keen on using a lot of curse words in copy. A "damn" or "hell" here or there can get the point across, but certainly not dropping a bunch of "f-bombs." However, I see much more colorful language on some service web pages than I ever thought I would.

Then again, it could be that the sales page above is this particular writer's "voice" and maybe it works.

[The Copy Nazi]

"witty, clever, lively web copy"


...that says nothing and takes you nowhere

[Mark Andrews]

This isn't the work of a copywriter. It simply smacks of an amateur pretending to be one. A fake it until they make it kind of person.

No professional copywriter in their right mind would even think to approach the market in this manner. This isn't new, it's just crap. The only person who thinks it's witty and clever is the person who wrote it. No serious company would ever take this person up on their offer. Period.

Everything about the page screams fake. A typical newbie who has looked at a few examples of copywriting online and thought to themselves, I can do this easily. Slap a few words together and wait for the mega bucks to come rolling in. Aren't I clever?

Hmmmmm no, far from it. You're just an idiot.

[travlinguy]

It's crude and presumptuous. It works for a few markets but certainly not the mainstream. Think, Rich Jerk. Though the "Middle Finger Project" isn't even a piss poor knockoff of Rich Jerk. I guess it would really suck to be an amateur at being crude since crudeness is actually now an art form. Talk about failure…

[kellyburdes]

I kinda liked her blog.

It's not my voice or style, but if I had to bet, my bet is that she's probably making more than 99% of the people who just sit on forums complaining all the time.

[Ken_Caudill]

I expect she's doing OK for herself. Her market will be entrepreneurs, not companies. Kudos for carving out a unique selling proposition.

[MRMagMark]

Originally Posted by kellyburdes

I kinda liked her blog.

It's not my voice or style, but if I had to bet, my bet is that she's probably making more than 99% of the people who just sit on forums complaining all the time.

Fair enough. Except it's speculation to assume she's probably making more than 99% of the people who frequent forums.

My questions had to do more with what I understand as traditional copy versus modern. I've read some of the copywriting classics, and follow direct marketing copywriters. But I do know there are all types of businesses on the Internet and wondered about the effectiveness of what TMFP is doing.

I wasn't trying to be snarky (And certainly not complaining.). I honestly haven't heard about the statistics for this style of writing. I'm simply asking if anyone knows if it gets results.

[Mark Andrews]

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

I expect she's doing OK for herself. Her market will be entrepreneurs, not companies. Kudos for carving out a unique selling proposition.

Originally Posted by MRMagMark

I'm simply asking if anyone knows if it gets results.

Ask Ken Caudill. He's the well known and recognized expert in this style.

[Mark Andrews]

It was a compliment.

[MRMagMark]

I like the Betty White ad. Entertaining, but what influenced me was the end offer. Still, the writer wrote a good script responding to the most common objections for joining AARP.

Overall, you never know what may resonate with your prospect. So the reason for my questions was to understand how this type of copy played out when it came to conversion.

I know many ad agencies thought Volkswagen was completely out of their mind for creating the famous "Lemon." ad campaign. But good night, look how successful it was. There will always be a place in history for the risk-takers and trouble-makers.

I'm just examining the history of copywriting, what worked in the past, the methods people use, and if the "new" works as well as the "old." Perhaps I asked too many general questions.

[The Copy Nazi]

Hey don't drag me into this. And Ken if you only knew my history with The Copy Ranger...

And Rick - I don't think he was implying anything at all. Bit like the line on his site "Be bold, break the mold" - which can be taken two ways - breaking mold (fungi/rot) or breaking mold (like a plastic extrusion or something).

As for self-promotion...I see plenty of guys throwing up topics here that really are just thinly disguised self-promotion.

Anyone need to break some mold? See Ken - he'll sort you out.

You guys...

[max5ty]

I applaud her for having an innovative attitude and being willing to be different.

[Danielle Lynn]

My thoughts on her page:

While it came across as crude and overly arrogant to me at first, I have to concede that I'm sure she is hitting a niche market with that copy of hers.

I frankly prefer it over some of the droll, lifeless material I sift through website after website.

Controversial? Well... yes. But controversy gets people's attention. We're talking about it right now, aren't we?

And I'll place bets that there's going to be a lurker that comes across this post, clicks on her site and orders one of her services.

I don't how effective her copy style is at getting people to purchase services/products - I don't know her track record. I see flaws, I see areas that are too general and not doing a particularly good job of guiding the reader.

And from a marketer's perspective, the vulgar over-the-top aspect makes me feel a bit uncomfortable about working with her. I like fun — but this may be a bit much.

So 'good' copy? That's a bit too subjective for me to answer. Effective marketing concept? It would appear like something's working.

She seems to be having fun and apparently she is able to effectively get people to notice her. Now... whether her copy gets people to buy or not is another story. (curious about the response she gets on that page.)

Edit: (another perspective) I showed a marketer friend this page and he responded "There is guts, and there is stupidity. It seems she has guts - but her tactics come across like jumping from a plane without a parachute."

[MRMagMark]

Originally Posted by DanielleLynnCopy

My thoughts on her page:

While it came across as crude and overly arrogant to me at first, I have to concede that I'm sure she is hitting a niche market with that copy of hers.

I frankly prefer it over some of the droll, lifeless material I sift through website after website.

Controversial? Well... yes. But controversy gets people's attention. We're talking about it right now, aren't we?

And I'll place bets that there's going to be a lurker that comes across this post, clicks on her site and orders one of her services.

I don't how effective her copy style is at getting people to purchase services/products - I don't know her track record. I see flaws, I see areas that are too general and not doing a particularly good job of guiding the reader.

And from a marketer's perspective, the vulgar over-the-top aspect makes me feel a bit uncomfortable about working with her. I like fun — but this may be a bit much.

So 'good' copy? That's a bit too subjective for me to answer. Effective marketing concept? It would appear like something's working.

She seems to be having fun and apparently she is able to effectively get people to notice her. Now... whether her copy gets people to buy or not is another story. (curious about the response she gets on that page.)

Edit: (another perspective) I showed a marketer friend this page and he responded "There is guts, and there is stupidity. It seems she has guts - but her tactics come across like jumping from a plane without a parachute."

Danielle Lynn, thanks for your reply. You brought up some good points.

I know there's "in your face" copy. I call it slam copy. I started the thread because I was hoping to hear from copywriters who tried both methods -- the "slam copy" and the traditional.

But in all fairness, I realize my question can't have a simple answer. Because some of this slam copy may work for a specific audience. I wouldn't imagine a 72-year-old going for it. But then most younger people would take one look at traditional long copy and run for the hills.

I'm most likely not telling you anything new when I say controversial (and entertaining) may get attention, but does it get sales? Like you, I'd love to know what she gets from that page.

Good remarks, too, from your marketer friend. All in all, an interesting page that has made me rethink some things.

[OnlineMasterMind]

Is she making money? Probably... The girl has 4,000 twitter followers, so clearly she is connecting with people (my guess is her niche is the struggling life coach and delusional silicon valley type - both clueless about DR marketing) to some degree.

But her copy...? Is a disaster.

If you go to her twitter stream you can see that she is dropping f bombs all over the place in a very immature way. A PROFESSIONAL business owner like myself who spends lots of money on advertising every single day would NEVER hire someone like this.

Are you kidding? No way...

Moreover, in my humble opinion... she does not have the slightest clue about DIRECT RESPONSE marketing...

Is she getting clients? Sure, it looks like it.

Has she written many (or any?) winning controls that have generated a minimum of 100 paying customers from cold traffic?

I doubt it.

[lometogo]

Originally Posted by DanielleLynnCopy

My thoughts on her page:

While it came across as crude and overly arrogant to me at first, I have to concede that I'm sure she is hitting a niche market with that copy of hers.

Makes me think the niche she may do well in is a certain age demographic: the young 20's who like it caustic, cutting, and "in your face"...maybe.

Maybe that market and the products it buys responds better to this style than older, more classic styles.

[Janet Scettrini]

Ha.. The long form vs short form debate has gone on forever. What's the problem?

None of you learned math.

If you run the stats on sites you'll find that split test side by side, they both perform well. The key? They perform diffrently in different markets. In a market with a rabid buyer, they don't want the long copy. It's TL;DR. Make your pitch quick and hit the points fast, then get it sold. Other markets still fair better with long copy. It's the reason you learn analytics.

J

[Danielle Lynn]

Originally Posted by lometogo

Makes me think the niche she may do well in is a certain age demographic: the young 20's who like it caustic, cutting, and "in your face"...maybe.

Maybe that market and the products it buys responds better to this style than older, more classic styles.

I couldn't put my finger on what was bugging me so much about her style before, but with that comment, you hit the nail on the head for me.

Yes she IS getting a response.

But then again.... who wants to attract 20-something year old clients who want to build an entire business model on shock marketing and crudeness?

Not anyone who wants to run a real copy business.

And what irritates me the most is the boundary-violating bluntness about it all... I don't feel like she'd care for me as a client. I feel like she'd steamroller me with her 'style' and I better like it and pay up - or else.

As much as I admire her guts, I also cringe at her style and delivery.

I'll have to concede with my marketing friend on this one regarding the parachute.

Is she making money? Probably... The girl has 4,000 twitter followers, so clearly she is connecting with people (my guess is her niche is the struggling life coach and delusional silicon valley type - both clueless about DR marketing) to some degree.

But her copy...? Is a disaster.

If you go to her twitter stream you can see that she is dropping f bombs all over the place in a very immature way. A PROFESSIONAL business owner like myself who spends lots of money on advertising every single day would NEVER hire someone like this.

Are you kidding? No way...

Moreover, in my humble opinion... she does not have the slightest clue about DIRECT RESPONSE marketing...

Is she getting clients? Sure, it looks like it.

Has she written many (or any?) winning controls that have generated a minimum of 100 paying customers from cold traffic?

I doubt it.

Based on everything I've seen so far (and after taking a look at her twitter account myself) I'm going to place my bets here with you on this one.

[Dean Jackson]

While I don't have a problem with dropping the F bomb in person, I wouldn't EVER do it while I'm pitching someone I don't know.

I agree with you Danielle, it could be used to effect. But the delivery is just way off mark and doesn't push any buttons. She thinks it's clever but it really comes off stupid (to me anyway).

MAYBE it works for "entrepreneurs" (like the guy who wanted "rockstar" copywriters LOL), but IMO, this sucks ass.

Dean

[KennethYu]

Well... I find the copy-style rather refreshing. There's a border between trying hard and being a try-hard and I think she's succeeded in the former.

Her style of writing reminds me of a brasher, less refined Sean D' Souza. Which means its probably copy that works for her market and push the right buttons.

As for f-bombs, Frank Kern does that all the time and people attribute it genius so I don't know what's the big deal. Plus he gets clients who pay him 6 figures plus profit share.

And I think there's a false dichotomy been created with "old" and "new" copy... Copywriting is all about finding out what the market ones and then giving it to them. If they're the financial rollers, you write a certain way. You want to attract the 20-something snarky hipsters, you write a certain way.

You're a chameleon. Plain and simple.

[OnlineMasterMind]

Originally Posted by KennethYu

As for f-bombs, Frank Kern does that all the time and people attribute it genius so I don't know what's the big deal. Plus he gets clients who pay him 6 figures plus profit share.

Oh really? Please direct us to where Frank Kern constantly drops the f bomb in the public domain of the internet or a salespage made for general consumption. (not in an person seminar or paid content which is completely different)

Even someone like Jordan Belfort who is constantly swearing... you're not gonna find one word of it on his site.

Personally, I'm not averse to swearing whatsoever.

But there is a time and place... and those two factors go a long way between determining whether someone has class and is a professional.... or is merely an amateur leaning on profanity to garner attention.

There's a MASSIVE difference between Frank Kern swearing like a normal person on his fb page every now and then... and having the word f--k and a$$hol3 in the very first sentence of your sales page.

You obviously don't see the distinction.