I can't take it! I'm outsourcing my copy...what should I look for in copywriter?

shabit87 · 07-06-2011, 07:45 AM

Hey Warriors:

I'm woman enough to admit when I'm weak and clearly copy is not my strong point.

What should I do to ensure my investment when hire a copywriter is one of the lowest risk and highest rewards possible?

Should a buy only from a copywriter who guarantees and conversion?

How do I ensure the copies they share in their portfolio are indeed theirs?

What does a good copywriter possess?

What are the red flags to look out for when hiring?

And are there any differences when hiring for a copywriter for video scripts versus long/short code?

I really appreciate any help you can give me. I'm serious about reinvesting into my biz and making it stronger and I can admit that copy is something that deserves my attention.

Ryan

Mark Andrews · 07-06-2011, 08:25 AM

Your best bet Ryan (rather than employing some newbie greenhorn copywriter) is to invest the same money they'll ask for and put this towards an investment with one of the top copywriters here instead. Ask for a copywriting critique of what you've already got.

You'll get back lots of suggestions how to improve your sales copy lessons learn't which will pay for themselves over and over again.

Or go the whole hog and get a pro copywriter to do this for you. Since you'll be a new client...

shabit87 · 07-06-2011, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Walker

Your best bet Ryan (rather than employing some newbie greenhorn copywriter) is to invest the same money they'll ask for and put this towards an investment with one of the top copywriters here instead. Ask for a copywriting critique of what you've already got.

You'll get back lots of suggestions how to improve your sales copy lessons learn't which will pay for themselves over and over again.

Or go the whole hog and get a pro copywriter to do this for you. Since you'll be a new client...

Thanks for sharing Pete..sadly the copy I already have is awful. I even paid for a critique once and had to end up practically writing it all over, but using the suggestions I got from the critique.

Its a lot of work to write copy that converts and I have a new found respect for those dedicated to writing copy.

Mark Andrews · 07-06-2011, 09:07 AM

To further answer your points raised...

"What should I do to ensure my investment when hire a copywriter is one of the lowest risk and highest rewards possible?"

Go for somebody with a good reputation, somebody who obviously isn't some fly by night operator. Somebody who knows exactly what the function of a sales letter is all about and how to hit on those emotional buying triggers.

Due diligence on your part will sort out the wheat from the chaff. In other words, look at each posters posting history for example on this forum.

"Should I buy only from a copywriter who guarantees a conversion?"

Here I take it you're asking for a set conversion rate and can this be guaranteed?

The short answer is no. This has to be repeated time and time again... No professional copywriter will ever guarantee a set percentage conversion rate.

A newbie copywriter might say yes, they can agree to 2% or 3% whatever, but if they do this it just proves their own incompetence and ignorance on the subject of copywriting. It will clearly demonstrate their lack of experience writing sales letters for either on or off line use.

It is completely outside of the copywriters control the kind of traffic you'll be sending to your offer. You can have the most fantastic product in the world but if you send people to your offer who are not at all interested in your wares to begin with, is this the copywriters fault when the sales fail to materialize? Of course not.

Or, if you murder the sales copy supplied, butcher it unmercilessly without informing the copywriter in advance of the changes you make, is it the copywriters fault when your expected sales bomb?

Why would a professional copywriter guarantee a conversion rate with factors such as these to take into consideration?

"How do I ensure the copies they share in their portfolio are indeed theirs?"

Contact previous customers in advance to ascertain the facts for yourself. Check out their testimonials.

"What does a good copywriter possess?"

Many skills not least of which will be a broad and fundamental knowledgebase of essential marketing principles. A copywriter doesn't just write sales copy, the good one's are incredible marketing machines in their own right. Their love for the subject of copywriting will come shining through their written language.

They'll have an indepth understanding for the reasons why people buy 'stuff'. In short, buying psychology. How to hit on the target audience hot emotional buying buttons across many different business sectors and niches.

They'll know how to uncover the pain or frustration and bring this sensitively or otherwise to the surface and how to switch this pain out to the best solution possible (emotional pleasure.)

In other words... they'll help you to justify your price point to your intended target audience in every which way possible to appeal to a very broad spectrum of your target market.

They know the importance of research... That comprehensive research underpins any copywriting project. And that this takes time, often approximately 40 hours will be put into a single sales letter. (Hence the 4 or 5 figure investment asked for by the professional copywriters.)

"What are the red flags to look out for when hiring?"

Ask lots of questions of your intended copywriter in advance, probe their mind, their individual copywriting knowledge.

Check out their website if they have one. Does it flow well? What are the words used doing to your own emotions whilst reading their sales copy?

Are their words building up interest or excitement or do you feel somehow disconnected whilst trying to engage with their written sales language? If the latter, a clear red flag to avoid them at all costs.

Do they follow all of the principles how to create a slippery sales funnel?

What is your gut instinct telling you? Are they the real thing or not? What do you sense overall from their written language? Are they the real deal or not?

I hope these further answers help to clarify one or two points for you Ryan and anyone else reading this and asking the same questions.

Best,

Pete Walker

lemonarian · 07-06-2011, 12:23 PM

To kind of reiterate what Pete was saying about what to look for in a writer...

If someone tries to advertise their mad writing chops... that they are master wordsmiths who can twist 'em and turn 'em to make crowds drool...

... run.

Look for someone who can reach deep inside your audience's minds, and see what makes them tick. If he can connect to the existing fears and desires of your customers... and neatly turn the dials a couple of degrees in your direction... and present logical arguments, and be an extremely clear communicator... then that's your dude.

Cheers, and good luck

Linus

wmguild · 07-06-2011, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Walker

To further answer your points raised...

"What does a good copywriter possess?"

Many skills not least of which will be a broad and fundamental knowledgebase of essential marketing principles. A copywriter doesn't just write sales copy, the good one's are incredible marketing machines in their own right. Their love for the subject of copywriting will come shining through their written language.

They'll have an indepth understanding for the reasons why people buy 'stuff'. In short, buying psychology. How to hit on the target audience hot emotional buying buttons across many different business sectors and niches.

They'll know how to uncover the pain or frustration and bring this sensitively or otherwise to the surface and how to switch this pain out to the best solution possible (emotional pleasure.)

I gotta tell ya - you just gave me goosebumps!

Stephen Dean · 07-06-2011, 04:01 PM

As copywriting great Bob Bly says, if you guarantee a conversion rate, you're lying.

So don't hire a copywriter who does.

And be suspicious of a copywriter who says yes to everything you ask. They want your project desperately, will say anything to get it, and that's a really bad sign.

Cheers,
Stephen Dean

Cam Connor · 07-06-2011, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Walker

"Should I buy only from a copywriter who guarantees a conversion?"

Here I take it you're asking for a set conversion rate and can this be guaranteed?

The short answer is no. This has to be repeated time and time again... No professional copywriter will ever guarantee a set percentage conversion rate.

A newbie copywriter might say yes, they can agree to 2% or 3% whatever, but if they do this it just proves their own incompetence and ignorance on the subject of copywriting. It will clearly demonstrate their lack of experience writing sales letters for either on or off line use.

It is completely outside of the copywriters control the kind of traffic you'll be sending to your offer. You can have the most fantastic product in the world but if you send people to your offer who are not at all interested in your wares to begin with, is this the copywriters fault when the sales fail to materialize? Of course not.

Or, if you murder the sales copy supplied, butcher it unmercilessly without informing the copywriter in advance of the changes you make, is it the copywriters fault when your expected sales bomb?

Pete Walker

... Well, said.

shabit87 · 07-07-2011, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmguild

I gotta tell ya - you just gave me goosebumps!

LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Dean

As copywriting great Bob Bly says, if you guarantee a conversion rate, you're lying.

So don't hire a copywriter who does.

And be suspicious of a copywriter who says yes to everything you ask. They want your project desperately, will say anything to get it, and that's a really bad sign.

Cheers,
Stephen Dean

Cool, thanks Stephen, I guess the samples are what I need to base my choice off of. I just don't want to waste time and money on a writer who is better suited for writing for the back of the cereal box...which I guess in all fairness can be a difficult task. Persuading others to enjoy their cereal and the toy within (kidding).

affiliatecopywriter · 07-07-2011, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Rice

Hey Warriors:

I'm woman enough to admit when I'm weak and clearly copy is not my strong point.

What should I do to ensure my investment when hire a copywriter is one of the lowest risk and highest rewards possible?

Should a buy only from a copywriter who guarantees and conversion?

How do I ensure the copies they share in their portfolio are indeed theirs?

What does a good copywriter possess?

What are the red flags to look out for when hiring?

And are there any differences when hiring for a copywriter for video scripts versus long/short code?

I really appreciate any help you can give me. I'm serious about reinvesting into my biz and making it stronger and I can admit that copy is something that deserves my attention.

Ryan

If you can write then you can probably sell. I see nothing wrong with your writing skills.

ewenmack · 07-07-2011, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by affiliatecopywriter

If you can write then you can probably sell.

Biggest myth and bad thinking when it comes to salesmanship.

Best,
Ewen

Ken_Caudill · 07-07-2011, 02:00 PM

If you can't write well enough to express yourself, you can't sell anything in print.

Cam Connor · 07-07-2011, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ewenmack

Biggest myth and bad thinking when it comes to salesmanship.

Best,
Ewen

Agreed. Writing has little to do with selling, I'd say if you can sell, and have at least a modicum of writing skills, than you can copywrite, though, the same is not true for writing abilities.

Ken_Caudill · 07-07-2011, 02:50 PM

The irrational belief that if you can sell, you can write winning sales copy has been expressed ad nauseum on this forum.

It just ain't necessarily so.

Sales is about listening. A pro salesman finds out how to sell his customer by asking questions and reading his clients' body language. Does Zig Ziglar write sales copy? Does Tm Robbins?

A sales background gives a copywriter insight into sales psychology --an invaluable weapon in the marketing arsenal. Without the ability to parlay that insight into writing, she is dead in the water.

I've trained many very successful sales people. The three things they had in common were high intelligence, the ability to express themselves to people from all walks of life, and a talent for reading people.

Selling to a reader absolutely demands good writing skills. I'm not talking about knowing spelling, punctuation and grammar (not that those things are unimportant), but the ability to write interestingly and carry a narrative.

There's a reason that pro copywriters talk about telling a story.

Go ahead. Get your insurance agent or the Tupperware sales lady to write your sales copy. See what happens.

shabit87 · 07-07-2011, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by affiliatecopywriter

If you can write then you can probably sell. I see nothing wrong with your writing skills.

Nope...I'm actually an okay writer (or so my professors say) but I'm not all to good and persuasive writing...using trigger words to set off the reader.

I can admit that. I thank you for the kind words, but in my case, I'm very sure its not the case.

iSoftware · 07-08-2011, 04:18 AM

Ryan, you also need to think about specialization. For instance, when it comes to selling software, demos are the most important creative feature.
As an example, one of the most important elements of any good copy is "proof"

What form of proof is demonstration of the fact that the product actually PHYSICALLY DOES what it says it will do.

Also people tend to be a bit more interested in features when it comes to software - benefits too yes - but alot more interested in features.

What I would do is this:
a) find someone who consistently is producting software copy (ex. video scripts) that workds
b) ask for referrals
c) think about outsourcing that.

I guarantee you could have the worst copy in the world but if you had a video of a piece of software that when you pushed a button generated cash, you'd have all the conversions in the world, lol
- hope that helps

Mark Andrews · 07-08-2011, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ResultsGuaranteedCopy

I believe the copywriter should guarantee results. For example, I guarantee your satisfaction for life. And have a proven track record and lot's of guru and non-guru clients just like you in video testimonial. That's a good place to start.

Mr Sunstrum

Would you care to explain why your homepage sales copy is identical to the sales copy used on Robert Bly's website?

Your homepage sales copy...

http://andrewsunstrum(dot)com/

Robert Bly's homepage...

Copywriter - Bob Bly - Copywriting Services

Robert Bly's Methodology page...

How I Write Direct Mail, Landing Pages, and Other Copywriting Projects

And your lifted identical version...

http://www.andrewsunstrum.com/method-copywriting(dot)html

Blatant copyright theft?

A great way to build credibility on this forum.

MontelloMarketing · 07-08-2011, 06:51 AM

that's what you call swiping when done by someone who doesn't know how to swipe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Walker

Mr Sunstrum

Would you care to explain why your homepage sales copy is identical to the sales copy used on Robert Bly's website?

Your homepage sales copy...

http://andrewsunstrum(dot)com/

Robert Bly's homepage...

Copywriter - Bob Bly - Copywriting Services

Robert Bly's Methodology page...

How I Write Direct Mail, Landing Pages, and Other Copywriting Projects

And your lifted identical version...

http://www.andrewsunstrum.com/method-copywriting(dot)html

Blatant copyright theft?

A great way to build credibility on this forum.

Mark Andrews · 07-08-2011, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

that's what you call swiping when done by someone who doesn't know how to swipe.

Precisely.

I just contacted Robert to let him know about this.

Daniel Scott · 07-08-2011, 09:43 AM

Ryan,

Being a copywriter myself... I don't need to hire anyone...

And when I pass on work... I have a pretty good eye for talent.

But if I didn't have those skills... and still needed to find a good fit... here's what I'd do.

First of all... contact guys outside your budget and ask for recommendations. Top copywriters are usually happy to help out if you don't meet their budget.

Secondly... if it's too good to be true, there probably is. I've seen people fall for stories about how "million dollar copywriters" are charging $1k (or less!) a letter out of boredom. You seem like a sensible lady, so this is probably unnecessary advice... but most marketers aren't so lucky.

Third... find someone who is happy to keep working with you. I'm not saying they should re-write converting copy for free or anything. Either give them a cut or pay them more for the rewrites (if your marketing is good you'll make way more than you pay them). But look for people who are interested in making your project a success and having an ongoing relationship with you.

Four... look for track record and verifiable results. "Warm fuzzy" testimonials don't put money in the bank. Plus, if someone else gets a rave review from another copywriter - that's usually a good sign. We won't badmouth other copywriters, but we will deflect. If, however, we sing another guy's praises... that's a healthy sign.

Five... good copy costs money. I dig not everyone has thousands just laying around... but you should be prepared to invest in good copy. If you go for the lowest bidder you'll get screwed. True with many things in life, but especially copywriting, which by nature means the guys charging the most are probably the best.

Now... that's not to say you should re-mortgage your house. Every writer has their bombs... and sometimes no matter what, things don't work. But you should be willing to step away from the price war mentality. You're not buying a finite commodity like a Sunbeam toaster, which is the same no matter who you buy it from... you're purchasing expertise and dedication, and that ain't cheap.

Finally... contact writers you like. Talk to them... get their advice... and let your instincts tell you who has got their skills together and who hasn't.

Honestly, this is a subject I could go on about all day... if you wanna Skype me I can probably find ten minutes or so to go into a little more detail.

By the way... I think it's great you have respect for the craft and know your limits. Learning you can't do everything is a conclusion I only came to this year myself... and my business is a LOT better for it.

-Daniel

ThomasOMalley · 07-08-2011, 01:00 PM

Walker:

I can't believe you actually contacted Bob Bly about this issue. While I don't condone straight out copying, you should probably learn to mind your own business.

P.S. Please email every piece of copy to me you have ever written so that I can check it against every swipe file known to mankind...LOLOL.

MontelloMarketing · 07-08-2011, 01:17 PM

Pete was 100% correct to stick his nose in.

Plagiarism is a big problem but even more so when the plagiarist is using said plagiarized material to sell themselves as a writer.

See the distinction, Tommy? See the double rub?

I've had to deal with this over and over again. Even today there's a guy in Hong Kong who pops up ever few months using my sales page to sell his services.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThomasOMalley

Walker:

I can't believe you actually contacted Bob Bly about this issue. While I don't condone straight out copying, you should probably learn to mind your own business.

P.S. Please email every piece of copy to me you have ever written so that I can check it against every swipe file known to mankind...LOLOL.

ThomasOMalley · 07-08-2011, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

Pete was 100% correct to stick his nose in.

Plagiarism is a big problem but even more so when the plagiarist is using said plagiarized material to sell themselves as a writer.

See the distinction, Tommy? See the double rub?

I've had to deal with this over and over again. Even today there's a guy in Hong Kong who pops up ever few months using my sales page to sell his services.

Well, we agree to disagree Vinny or whatever you want to call yourself.

MontelloMarketing · 07-08-2011, 01:43 PM

lol! Seriously? We agree to disagree?

You disagree that a writer selling his services as a writer should actually WRITE the copy that sells those services? Really? Not an issue with you at all?

Wow...

I mean... wow.

ThomasOMalley · 07-08-2011, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

lol! Seriously? We agree to disagree?

You disagree that a writer selling his services as a writer should actually WRITE the copy that sells those services? Really? Not an issue with you at all?

Wow...

I mean... wow.

I love the drama in here sometimes...you definitely have given me a good laugh today.

The bottom line is I'm sure Bob Bly can take care of himself. Every "do-gooder" copywriter would have their time better spent on their own business.

Sure, you should write your own copy to sell your copywriting services. But these actions of reporting this person to another person give me bad memories of tattle tales in school...LOL.

The Copy Nazi · 07-08-2011, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThomasOMalley

Walker:

I can't believe you actually contacted Bob Bly about this issue. While I don't condone straight out copying, you should probably learn to mind your own business.

P.S. Please email every piece of copy to me you have ever written so that I can check it against every swipe file known to mankind...LOLOL.

Dude, are you serious? Plagiarism is theft. "Learn to mind your own business"???? WTF. I applaud what Pete did. I'd do the same thing.

Makes me wonder about you.

ThomasOMalley · 07-08-2011, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi

Dude, are you serious? Plagiarism is theft. "Learn to mind your own business"???? WTF. I applaud what Pete did. I'd do the same thing.

Makes me wonder about you.

Another good laugh...and your comment re. makes me wonder about you. I go by the expression, "what you think about me is none of my business."

John_S · 07-08-2011, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Plagiarism is a big problem but even more so when the plagiarist is using said plagiarized material to sell themselves as a writer.

I don't understand. Is this profit calculated before or after the infringement lawsuit penalties are assessed?

max5ty · 07-08-2011, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

At least Andrew Sunstrum does seem to have some pretty legit Video Testimonials...

Watch this one from a Phoenix Police Officer:
YouTube - ‪Copywriting - Professional Copywriting Results‬&rlm;

This guy made probably over $500,000 in 2 1/2 months, and he's SO dedicated, that he's STILL a Phoenix Police Officer. Kudos to you sir, way to keep the people of Phoenix safe despite having hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank, which you probably made in the last two and a half months.

Were you being serious about the videos?

You can get as many as you want over at fiverr for 5 bucks a pop - it's not that complicated of a thing to have done.

max5ty · 07-09-2011, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

No, of course a Phoenix police officer didn't make $500k in "probably" 2 1/2 months because of Andrew's copy. And he's still a police officer? Instead of pursuing this new "Internet Marketing" thing he tried out and made over half a mill in 2 1/2 months at, the testimonial is so ridiculous it's funny. I thought I implied that well enough in the post, but you know what they say about sarcasm on the internet. LOL

P.S: He said "plus, I used to write my own sales letters, and it costs me 5-10 thousand dollars"... why would it cost him $5-$10k to write his own sales letters?

Ok, I was a little worried there for a minute.

The testimonial reminds me of an offer I saw online today. You could learn this guys whole process - he makes $15,000.00 a month, but he's going to sell his secrets for only 17.00.

Seems like if you made that much, you wouldn't waste your time trying to sell an ebook.

Each his own I guess.

shabit87 · 07-10-2011, 07:41 AM

Quote: