Hiring a copywriter for a sales page

[Scoke]

I'm relatively new to WF and --I need to hire someone to write a sales page for my product. All the copywriters I've spoken to (so far) want their fee before or upon delivery, with no guarantees around conversion.

BUT, how on earth do I know that after I've given the copywriter my $3000 (or, $5000 or $10000 or whatever)--and they walk away, that the page will convert? I'm not a gambler, and I AM willing to pay for a sales page that works. I'm NOT willing to pay for a page that doesn't.

How can I align the copywriter's economic incentive with mine? Thoughts anyone?

[ARSuarez]

Originally Posted by Scoke

How can I align the copywriter's economic incentive with mine? Thoughts anyone?

1) Have a partner to handle your marketing (who takes a % of the sales or $ per name acquired)

2) Work a royalty/commission into the deal to give them incentive for the project's long term success

Those are the only ways I know to get a long term commitment out of a copywriter. It also insures they'll stay with you for the long run because their additional stream of income is based on the success of your marketing and promotion.

Some copywriters (like myself) will only accept these types of arrangements.

Also, as for the commission/royalties, you can do it on a percentage of sales or so many dollars per new name added to your list. Or, you can do both - $4/name on acquisition, %/sale for back ends.

Your choice.

-Angel

[Scoke]

Originally Posted by ARSuarez

1) Have a partner to handle your marketing (who takes a % of the sales or $ per name acquired)

2) Work a royalty/commission into the deal to give them incentive for the project's long term success

Those are the only ways I know to get a long term commitment out of a copywriter. It also insures they'll stay with you for the long run because their additional stream of income is based on the success of your marketing and promotion.

Some copywriters (like myself) will only accept these types of arrangements.

Also, as for the commission/royalties, you can do it on a percentage of sales or so many dollars per new name added to your list. Or, you can do both - $4/name on acquisition, %/sale for back ends.

Your choice.

-Angel

Hi Angel,

That sounds more in-line with what I would expect of a professional who is willing to walk their talk.

What has frustrated me up until this point is when I hear and read all these grand promises and glowing testimonials--"My sales copy sells $80M in 3 hours" but then when I've asked the copywriters to back it up with the economics, what I've gotten is "But, but, but and well, well, well".

I firmly believe that human beings are economically rational. If a person really, really does believe that their sales copy can sell $80M is 3 hours, then the economically rational thing for them to do is to take a percentage. Otherwise, I smell a rat.

[Mark Andrews]

The copywriter though is taking a hell of a risk with their time and expertise.

You also need to do your part to reassure them that you're not going to rip them off either. And you might be surprised at the number of people trying it on, every trick in the book to get out of making good on their promised monies owed.

Now, no professional copywriter is going to guarantee you a set conversion rate. We simply do not know from whence you'll be attracting traffic to your offer. If this traffic is stone cold, chances are it's going to bomb no matter how good the sales copy. And this is completely outside of the copywriters control.

How can you reassure the copywriters here that you will make good on your word? What mechanisms will you put in place so your copywriter can see exactly how you're promoting your offer and will all of these statistics be available to your copywriter?

Best,


Pete Walker

[Mark Pescetti]

Originally Posted by Scoke

I firmly believe that human beings are economically rational. If a person really, really does believe that their sales copy can sell $80M is 3 hours, then the economically rational thing for them to do is to take a percentage. Otherwise, I smell a rat.

First of all, it's completely appropriate to PAY your copywriter their fees, whether it's 100% upfront (like me) or half in the beginning and the other upon completion.

It's an investment in YOUR success. Get over it.

However, your issue with trying to guarantee conversions is a valid concern.

Bluntly stated, nobody can guarantee conversions. I don't care who you are and what kind of track record you have.

The moment you hear someone say "Yeah, I can definitely guarantee I'll write you copy that converts," run for the hills.

That being said, it's in the copywriters best interest to keep tweaking or even rewriting a sales page until some level of success has been achieved.

An example: I've been working with 4 people for the last 2 - 4 months tweaking their sales letters. All of them are bringing money, except for one. This sales letter already gets about 1,000 people on it a week because of a redirect, but it's only getting maybe 3 0r 4 sales a day. We are definitely getting closer to the message that's converting, so it can be a process...

That's what you're looking for... a copywriter who stays with you until an agreed upon goal can be manifested.

[Nostrildamus]

Erm, check out a load copywriters' own sites and those of their clients. If you get the tingles, you've found your man.

[Stephen Dean]

Being a copywriter is kind of like being a chick. You get propositioned every single day. Especially for percentage deals.

And if we took every offer to work for a percentage, we wouldn't have time to take on your project anyway.

But a percentage deal is a gamble for the copywriter. Copywriting is a sales multiplier, but if the marketer can't get targeted traffic or the product sucks - we're up a creek. And then there's also the problem of making sure we're paid fairly.

So pretending like a percentage deal is a no-brainer, is completely backwards. It's a non-starter for most copywriters with any experience.

That said, there are deals that can be worked out somewhere in the middle.

Cheers,
Stephen Dean

[Scoke]

I think the key word in your reply is "investment"--a I want RETURN on my investment. A "nice try" doesn't pay the bills.

If a copywriter is willing to commit to sticking around until the page starts to convert, that's something. At least it shows a willingness to stand behind the work...

Originally Posted by Reflection Marketing

First of all, it's completely appropriate to PAY your copywriter their fees, whether it's 100% upfront (like me) or half in the beginning and the other upon completion.

It's an investment in YOUR success. Get over it.

However, your issue with trying to guarantee conversions is a valid concern.

Bluntly stated, nobody can guarantee conversions. I don't care who you are and what kind of track record you have.

The moment you hear someone say "Yeah, I can definitely guarantee I'll write you copy that converts," run for the hills.

That being said, it's in the copywriters best interest to keep tweaking or even rewriting a sales page until some level of success has been achieved.

An example: I've been working with 4 people for the last 2 - 4 months tweaking their sales letters. All of them are bringing money, except for one. This sales letter already gets about 1,000 people on it a week because of a redirect, but it's only getting maybe 3 0r 4 sales a day. We are definitely getting closer to the message that's converting, so it can be a process...

That's what you're looking for... a copywriter who stays with you until an agreed upon goal can be manifested.

[John_S]

How can I align the copywriter's economic incentive with mine? Thoughts anyone?

Not a problem. Have the site set up so the joint venture partner can view raw sales figures in analytics. No password changes. No lockouts. No alternatives.

Preventing access is an instant default. No exceptions.

An offer to audit the books at any time is always nice. For those marketers who, like Jay Abraham, have their accountant do audits.

Always offer percentage of gross sales. Not profits. Not net.

The copywriter owns everything she or he puts into the venture. Copyrights. Code. Layout. Photos. Video. Bonuses. Logos. Business processes. And the right to use Testimonials they bring in. Should the deal go south, no problem. You go your way. The copywriter takes every scrap of their contribution and goes his or hers.

And, truth be told, if it's not producing sales -- that is no kind of problem. You want if off your site.

Finally some cooperation is always nice. If you are asked for testimonials, do not come up with one thousand and one excuses -- get 'em.

If The Video needs to be reshot. Reshoot it.

If The Product needs to be changed. Change it.

Don't have a back end and upsells. Get some.

Essentially your same caveat applies. The key word is INVESTMENT. And the people making this pitch usually aren't going to put up an investment equal to or exceeding that which they ask of others.

[Scoke]

Hi Y'all,

Thanks so much for all the great replies. I can't send PMs myself yet (still new to WF). So, if you are sending me a PM, PLEASE, please, please include some way for me to get in contact with you. I'd hate to have the perfect person send me a PM, and then I can't respond.

I'm going to dig around now to see if I can just buy my way up the ladder. In the meantime, make sure to put your email or something in your PMs.

[Mark Andrews]

Originally Posted by Scoke

I think the key word in your reply is "investment"--a I want RETURN on my investment. A "nice try" doesn't pay the bills.

If a copywriter is willing to commit to sticking around until the page starts to convert, that's something. At least it shows a willingness to stand behind the work...

You're looking at this only from the viewpoint of, "What's in this for me?" (With little or no consideration for your copywriter.) Which in itself sends up a red flag to steer well clear.

If you were wording your request not from your own selfish POV but rather out of equal concern for the copywriter, your credibility with your request would rise.

Your copywriters here, they also need to make a profit. Their time and expertise which you haven't got, is their investment in themselves. But to you it's obvious that this doesn't stand for a lot.

All you want is the maximum return on your investment whilst minimizing your own financial risk. Completely natural maybe but give the copywriters their due, they have to think very similarly about their own business and who they choose to work with.

If you say, I want everything on my terms only you'll push every experienced copywriter in the opposite direction.

We also need to be sold to, to make the decision to work with any potential client. And if you can't sell us on your willingness or otherwise to come up with the readies in advance... you'll be looking for a very long time for a professional copywriter suitable for your purposes.

"Hey! Look at that gorgeous car in the showroom - Wow! What a beauty!..."

You don't go up to the salesman and say, "Hey I want to test this car out for a month first without paying for it. If I decide that I like it, I'll pay for it later. Otherwise you can keep it."

You don't walk into a bar and say, "Well I've never tried this brandy before, tell you what, lets have the double brandy first and if I don't like it, I won't pay for it, do we have a deal?"

What do think the barman is going to say to you?

You pay for everything else in advance and don't have a problem with it so why not apply the same philosophy to your business?

Your copywriter is the kingpin in your business.

S/he can make or break your business profit. Allowing you to enjoy the lifestyle you want. Everything else in your life rests on the copywriters ability to put profit in your bank account... but you don't value this?

So let me get this straight... You haven't got the skill to do this yourself (hence the question in the first place) but you also underestimate what the copywriter brings to the table and possibly think that you call pull the wool over your copywriters eyes by offering a percentage only and nothing up front?

Seriously, what planet are you on sunshine?

You need the copywriter. Without them you ain't going nowhere fast matey. In fact you ain't got a business without your copywriter on side.

So highly value their unique and very professional skill. Don't treat them like a disposable commodity.

Don't insult them.

Don't tell them you have no desire to pay their fees upfront. Adopt such a lax attitude and little wonder you'll repel every professional copywriter on this forum and elsewhere.

You're nothing without your pro copywriter firmly on your side.

And they need their motivation and there's nothing like money in their pocket to get most professional copywriters very highly motivated!!

Offering no money upfront or offering some silly percentage is like trying to start a car with a flat battery.

Charge 'em up! And you'll see very good positive results.

Best,


Pete Walker

[Scoke]

Listen, my question in my original post (which is still the operative question) is: how do I ALIGN my copywriter's economic mine? I've been talking about a WIN-WIN here from the very beginning.

What I've heard from the copywriters that I've spoken to before this post is "I WIN regardless of whether or not YOU LOSE".

In the best business deals, risk and reward are shared with some degree of parity. And, I very much see the copywriter-content provider relationship as a partnership. It has to be. But, in the case where the copywriter walks away with a couple thousand dollars in hand (up-front?!?! yikes), he/she has little or no skin in the game.

I'm fully aware that I need to put something at stake (to show good faith and commitment), but I think the copywriter needs to put something at stake, too.

[MontelloMarketing]

It's a tiring conversation that pops up monthly.

Sure... there is risk in hiring a copywriter. Do your homework... Go on reputation. Talk to others who have hired the copywriter.

A good copywriter will often have a guaranteed up front fee PLUS a piece of your end too.

The first part is to pay him for his time...

The second part is to give him skin in the game...

There are no guarantees of performance. There can't be. There are too many variables. Let's say for instance you're selling a book on how to train parakeets. You find a great copywriter... convince him to take 25% of profits in lieu of pay. He says, "sure..."

What follows is him working a month on your project... Putting in nearly 80 hours to write you a compelling offer...

Then you launch your product... completely screw up the ad buys... never attract affiliates... and basically screw the pooch. Your copywriter now lost a month of his life.

Or... let's say you're looking to sell a piece of software that scans the web and recruits affiliates for marketers. It smells like a zillion dollar invention. It's been tested and it works like crazy! You find a great copywriter... convince him to take 10% of profits in lieu of pay. He says, "sure..."

What follows is him working a month on your project... Putting in nearly 100 hours to write you a compelling offer...

Turns out your software was TOO good. The government decides it's illegal. Your copywriter now lost a month of his life.

Or... let's say you want to sell a product on flipping houses. You find a great copywriter... convince him to take 30% of profits in lieu of pay. He says, "sure..."

What follows is him working a month on your project... Putting in more than 65 hours to write you a compelling offer...

Then after hanging out talking with some flippers on a forum you come to the realization that you're a moron. House flipping in this economy is the stupidest idea in the world. There is no way the copy is going to sell 1 damn copy of your product. You just decide to abandon it and move onto dog grooming.

Your copywriter now lost a month of his life.

These scenarios happen every single day. That's why you can't pay a copywriter for his time with a "will come" deal.

Finding a copywriter is all about the reputation. No copywriter hits homeruns everytime. I've had my share of less-than-stellar performances. But I've had more than my share of huge successes. You're not paying for a guarantee of results. You're paying to stack the deck in your favor.

No one can promise success... but some of us can be your best shot at success. In any service business... that's all you can ask for.

You don't make a deal with a doctor to only pay if he cures you. You don't hire a lawyer and only pay if he gets you out of jail.

You can pay a gajillion dollars to make sure your car is the fastest... your pit crew the best... hone your skills to be above all others... but you can still lose that race, and it could have nothing to do with any of those things.

But... If you are hung up on not paying unless you have some sort of guarantee the copy will convert, then just save your money... and learn copy. Then you can become your own worst client.

[kellyburdes]

I would suspect that a person who can't afford to "lose" $3000 if "the copy doesn't convert" has very little to offer and on that basis alone most copywriters would be wise to stay away.

Keep in mind that I'm not a professional copywriter, I'm a product owner who for the most part writes his own copy and does pretty well with it - but if I was a freelancer I'd stay as far away from someone like you offering your deal as possible.

[WillDL]

Originally Posted by Scoke

Listen, my question in my original post (which is still the operative question) is: how do I ALIGN my copywriter's economic mine? I've been talking about a WIN-WIN here from the very beginning.

What I've heard from the copywriters that I've spoken to before this post is "I WIN regardless of whether or not YOU LOSE".

In the best business deals, risk and reward are shared with some degree of parity. And, I very much see the copywriter-content provider relationship as a partnership. It has to be. But, in the case where the copywriter walks away with a couple thousand dollars in hand (up-front?!?! yikes), he/she has little or no skin in the game.

I'm fully aware that I need to put something at stake (to show good faith and commitment), but I think the copywriter needs to put something at stake, too.

You're being ridiculous. The copy writers aren't asking to partner with you. You are looking for an independent contractor to perform a service. Independent contractors generally require an upfront fee. They aren't sales people and you're ability to put the right prospects in front of the copy is way more important than the copy itself. The serious copywriters I know require I couple grand upfront and 3-5% of sales. They don't guarantee anything or work on straight commissions because way too much is out of their control to make either viable, long term business models.

Beyond that, copy writers put their reputation at risk every time they write a sales letter. If they write a letter or two that don't convert they loose the ability to charge the big bucks. Their economic interest is immediately aligned with every client they take. The marketing world is too damn small to throw up crap and charge big boy prices. Client looses they loose bigger. Period. Anyone with solid references who has been in the game for a couple of years intrinsically has as much riding on your product as you do.

[kellyburdes]

Like Vin said above even the best writers will sometimes miss the market, but overall copy writers live and die by the reputation they build for conversions. If they throw out a couple of duds in a row, and by that I mean they are hired to write a letter, and the product owner sends targeted traffic which doesn't convert, they are not going to last long.

Your about as good as your last two or three pieces of copy. Check into someone's reputation, if it's good understand that they did not build that good reputation by writing **** that doesn't convert.

If you can't accept that risk, your probably not ready to play the game in the first place IMO.

Originally Posted by Scoke

In the best business deals, risk and reward are shared with some degree of parity. And, I very much see the copywriter-content provider relationship as a partnership. It has to be. But, in the case where the copywriter walks away with a couple thousand dollars in hand (up-front?!?! yikes), he/she has little or no skin in the game.

[Mark Andrews]

Originally Posted by Scoke

Listen, my question in my original post (which is still the operative question) is: how do I ALIGN my copywriter's economic mine? I've been talking about a WIN-WIN here from the very beginning.

What I've heard from the copywriters that I've spoken to before this post is "I WIN regardless of whether or not YOU LOSE".

In the best business deals, risk and reward are shared with some degree of parity. And, I very much see the copywriter-content provider relationship as a partnership. It has to be. But, in the case where the copywriter walks away with a couple thousand dollars in hand (up-front?!?! yikes), he/she has little or no skin in the game.

I'm fully aware that I need to put something at stake (to show good faith and commitment), but I think the copywriter needs to put something at stake, too.

I did listen to you which is an intrinsic part of the copywriters role. To understand your frustration and pain - with a good dollop of psychology thrown into the mix too.

The real question is... are you listening to the real professional copywriters advice on this thread?

Your comments clearly demonstrate a complete lack of respect for the copywriters here. If you were to be demonstrating respect, you would not be replying in the manner shown so far.

You would on the other hand be appreciating the advice we bring to the table and possibly saying, "You know what? You're completely right, I was looking at this in the wrong way. I'll certainly take your professional opinions on board and thank you for setting me straight in this regard. It's very much appreciated."

If you did this and showed a more reflexive attitude, your own credibility here as a potential client would rise.

But retorting in the manner which you have so far, your credibility as a potential client has resoundingly hit the ground with a massive SPLAT!

It pays to put your money where your mouth is.

[Scoke]

Originally Posted by Pete Walker

Your comments clearly demonstrate a complete lack of respect for the copywriters here.... But retorting in the manner which you have so far, your credibility as a potential client has resoundingly hit the ground with a massive SPLAT!...It pays to put your money where your mouth is.

Well, there's more than one way to skin a cat. You do your business your way, and I do my business my way...There's nothing wrong with either. And, I'm very pleased with the not insignificant number of copywriters who have sent me messages interested in working with me. I'm actually pretty hopeful after getting the responses from this thread that I'll find a copywriter who is a good match for me. I've already gotten what I wanted out of this thread--It's very exciting!

I absolutely agree with you that it pays to put your money where your mouth is--which is what I'm asking of the person who writes my copy. If someone is going to advertise about all the wonderful results their copy has produced, my expectation is that they will stand behind that advertisement.

If I've left anyone with the impression that I don't value/respect what a copywriter does, that's not the case. I fully admit to being new to the scene--I started the thread with this information. But, if I've learned one thing (brutally) in business, it's to "trust my gut". When it come to working with people, I pay for performance not for hype. The person who writes the copy that sells my product will get all the respect in the world from me. People who talk a good game but can't perform, that's a different matter all together.

[Alex Cohen]

Scoke,

What you've seen from the responses so far remind me of the old saying, "Sacred cows make the best hamburger".

LOL

There are plenty of quality professionals around who work using a results-based model.

Alex

[Scoke]

Originally Posted by kellyburdes

I would suspect that a person who can't afford to "lose" $3000 if "the copy doesn't convert" has very little to offer and on that basis alone most copywriters would be wise to stay away.

Keep in mind that I'm not a professional copywriter, I'm a product owner who for the most part writes his own copy and does pretty well with it - but if I was a freelancer I'd stay as far away from someone like you offering your deal as possible.

You are absolutely right that any money invested is money I have to be willing to part with...But, if I'm going to blow $3000, I'd rather take a trip to the Caribbean. Or donate it to the homeless... Or, throw a party... This isn't that. The goal here is to make a profit. So, the investment made in a copywriter's fee will be made with an eye towards doing my best to ensure the investment is profitable. It's very simple. I'm fine with spending money on a copywriter, I just don't want to waste it.

[Scoke]

Originally Posted by Alex Cohen

Scoke,

What you've seen from the responses so far remind me of the old saying, "Sacred cows make the best hamburger".

LOL

There are plenty of quality professionals around who work using a results-based model.

Alex

I know. Any and every serious professional who is confident of their ability to perform is not afraid of being held accountable for and paid for that performance. Period.

[Mark Andrews]

Originally Posted by Scoke

.But, if I'm going to blow $3000, I'd rather take a trip to the Caribbean. Or donate it to the homeless... Or, throw a party...

Personally I'd rather blow $3k on a copywriter who makes me $100k plus to enjoy 10 more trips to the Caribbean with some loose change left over.

Your copywriter is an investment not a cost.

You don't blow money on a copywriter who can get you results.

You pay upfront what they're worth and they in turn give you a very good return on your money invested. Essentially rendering your sales copy free of charge.

Employ a newbie and it'll cost you a hell of a lot more. The only pm messages you'll receive, guaranteed, will be from new or very inexperienced would be 'copywriters' who don't know the full rules of the game. Everyone else will run miles away from your proposition. And for a very good reason too.

Further in answer to your original question, do your research right here on this forum. Assuming due diligence you'll soon enough be able to sort the wheat out from the chaff.

To give you a headstart, try one of these top copywriters with a huge number of successes behind them... just be warned, none of them come 'cheap'. Certainly don't insult any of them with a silly royalty fee proposition with no payment upfront.

These copywriters are all a cut above the rest on this forum and most, if not all of them, are at the very top of their game and have generated millions of dollars for their clients.

Scott Murdaugh, Dean Dhuli, Vin Montello, Brian Cassingena, Mark McClure, Dorothy Pecson, John_S, Rick Duris,Brian McLeod, Mark Pocock, Ken Strong, Bruce Wedding, Loren Woirhaye, Daniel Scott, Kevin Rogers, Alan Carr, Malcolm Lambe, Kyle Tully, Matt O'Connor, Ross Bowring, Stephen Dean, Arfa Saira, Laura Catella, Kevin Lam, Mike Humphreys, Cherilyn Woodhouse, Jack Bastide, Paul Hancox, Alex Cohen, Ken Caudill, Bill Jeffels, Collette, Ray Edwards, David Raybould, Andrew Cavanagh, Paul Myers, Hugh Thyer. Chris Ramsey, Lance K, Danielle Lynn. Colmodwyer, Matt Jutras, Omar Khafagy, Robert Boduch, Tim Castleman, David Babineau.

[Scoke]

Originally Posted by Pete Walker

Your copywriter is an investment not a cost...
The only pm messages you'll receive, guaranteed, will be from new or very inexperienced would be 'copywriters' who don't know the full rules of the game. Everyone else will run miles away from your proposition. And for a very good reason too.

I agree that it's an investment. One makes an investment with the expectation of a return--not excuses or blaming PPC campaign or the product or "blah, blah, blah" for why things didn't turn out.

As for the assertion that only losers have sent me PMs, I'm very hopeful about the opposite. I believe (and hope) that's it's the people who know they can deliver who would contact me about performance based comp. Only time and results will tell on that one. Stay tuned...

[Scoke]

Originally Posted by Pete Walker

Certainly don't insult any of them with a silly royalty fee proposition with no payment upfront.

I haven't said I was unwilling to make an upfront payment. But, I don't believe the majority the comp should be upfront. And, thanks for the recommendations...Those are very helpful.

[Mark Andrews]

Originally Posted by Scoke

I agree that it's an investment. One makes an investment with the expectation of a return--not excuses or blaming PPC campaign or the product or "blah, blah, blah" for why things didn't turn out.

As for the assertion that only losers have sent me PMs, I'm very hopeful about the opposite. I believe (and hope) that's it's the people who know they can deliver who would contact me about performance based comp. Only time and results will tell on that one. Stay tuned...

I won't hold my breath.

For your convenience, I adjusted my reply above.

If you have replies from anyone not on the above list of top copywriters, I'd steer well clear of them if I were you. I say this only for your own good believe it or not.

All of the above names have an impeccable track record with countless success stories behind them. And they won't be attracted to you unless you pay them very well indeed - upfront.

Originally Posted by Scoke

As for the assertion that only losers have sent me PMs...

I didn't say losers, you said that, not me.

I said... "...will be from new or very inexperienced would be 'copywriters' who don't know the full rules of the game."

Subtle difference.

Good luck.


Pete Walker

[Scoke]

Originally Posted by Pete Walker

Scott Murdaugh, Dean Dhuli, Vin Montello, Brian Cassingena, Mark McClure, Dorothy Pecson, John_S, Rick Duris, Brian McLeod, Mark Pocock, Ken Strong, Bruce Wedding, Loren Woirhaye, Daniel Scott, Kevin Rogers, Alan Carr, Malcolm Lambe, Kyle Tully, Matt O'Connor, Ross Bowring, Stephen Dean, Arfa Saira, Kevin Lam, Mike Humphreys, Cherilyn Woodhouse, Jack Bastide, Paul Hancox, Alex Cohen, Ken Caudill, Bill Jeffels, Collette, Ray Edwards, David Raybould, Andrew Cavanagh, Paul Myers, Hugh Thyer. Chris Ramsey, Lance K, Danielle Lynn. Colmodwyer, Matt Jutras, Omar Khafagy, Robert Boduch, Tim Castleman, David Babineau.

What's your criteria for your "top copywriter" list?

[Mark Andrews]

Originally Posted by Scoke

What's your criteria for your "top copywriter" list?

Researching the competition of course.

And seeing their track records.

[Cam Connor]

Originally Posted by Scoke

What's your criteria for your "top copywriter" list?

Anyone he could think of.

[Doceye]

You know what, Scoke ... you've just flat chosen not to listen. And that's your choice. But choices carry with them consequences.

Some very, very talented and experienced copywriters have tried to set you straight on your mistake in thinking and you insist on ignoring everything to focus on "guarantees" of performance because you're the one paying. Analogy after analogy were laid at your feet ... and you either ignored the advice contained within, or are so hell-bent on protecting your dough at all cost, that your best bet will be to work with a newbie writer.

You're still going to be out money, but at least by then you'll be on the road to understanding what the sam-heck guys who've been doing this for years have been trying to tell you here.

There's no harm or foul in being new to anything, but prick up your ears and learn something here that will benefit you. But please don't ask questions of experts and then dispute their answers when you acknowledge not knowing very much about the subject. Kind of makes you appear a fool.

Doc

[Mark Andrews]

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

Anyone he could think of.

That list of names isn't just anyone. The list certainly was not picked out of thin air.

Use advanced search. Search their history. Find out about their successes. Cross check on Google. If you think for one second I just plucked those names out of thin air - you're very much mistaken.

Those copywriters were selected for very good reason because they can each demonstrate and prove they're at the top of their game.

[Daniel Scott]

Pete,

Paul Myers hasn't written for clients for quite some time. Rest of the list looks active (and thorough) though.

Scoke - one problem with your model which I don't think you're seeing...

You're asking for your copywriter to put their money where their mouth is. And that's fine...

But what about you?

What guarantees does a copywriter have you won't screw up your end of the deal... especially after you've admitted you're new to this game?

I'm lucky enough to count some amazing marketers among my friends... guys most people would kill to be, business-wise.

And they're the first people to admit they screw up just as much as anyone else.

Hence why Vin recommend an up front fee + percentage deal. Keeps both of you focused and working hard.

Thing is, serious business people don't have a problem investing in their business... even if payoff isn't guaranteed. You buy traffic that might or might not work. You pay for a graphic design that might or might not do better. And so on...

Look... if I ALWAYS hit home runs... I'd be asking for a hundred grand a letter as an absolute minimum.

Sure... I've done percentage deals like this in the past, and still do if I find the right person.

Sometimes you make a stack of cash... sometimes you make nothing.

But as a competent copywriter and business person, I make sure my "partner" has:

*A killer product
*A solid amount of marketing assets to draw on (list, ad capital, etc), and finally
*A ton of knowledge about marketing (and usually previous successes)

And it's usually on a 50/50 basis.

After all... I'm putting just as much on the line as s/he is... so if things work out, I want to be damn well compensated.

And I'm going to do my best to make sure I give myself the best possible chance of things working out by ensuring I choose the right person to work with.

That's not including all the stuff John mentioned (access to books etc).

At the end of the day... a partnership is a massive undertaking. It's not a decision I take lightly... nor (IMHO) should any copywriter enter into one without doing their homework on the prospective "client", just like clients do their homework on the copywriter they hire.

My philosophy - good partners understand it's a give and take relationship, and they understand the unpredictability of business. Sometimes things bomb for reasons no one can understand.

So when I see someone who wants us to basically guarantee results... it usually is a sign of someone who doesn't understand how things really work... and is a red flag.

Not saying you're one of those people... just saying that to me (and others) that's how it's coming across.

A final example...

Remember the Old Spice ads that won all those awards? Those guys were paid a ton for that. Great campaign... and I'm sure they worked their asses off.

It took sales DOWN seven percent.

However... what if it took sales up even one percent? The fee those guys charged would have been a drop in the ocean, right?

That's why good copywriters charge what they do. Because when they help you win... you win big.

-Daniel

[Scoke]

Originally Posted by Pete Walker

I didn't say losers, you said that, not me...I said... "...will be from new or very inexperienced would be 'copywriters' who don't know the full rules of the game."

Some rules are made to be broken.

[BrianMcLeod]

Not to put too fine a point on an already sharp discussion, but there's a pretty big elephant in the middle of this thread.

And here it is (with absolutely no offense intended to the OP)

Almost invariably, those most hell-bent on performance guarantees are the LEAST likely to have the experience and/or resources to properly leverage the creative output of whomever they might retain as their copywriter.

As Stephen Dean astutely points out above, great copy is a sales multiplier, not a panacea. Great sales copy can sell more for you, and better - but no salesperson can sell without a steady stream of qualified leads. Just can't happen.

Vin said it clearly here, "You're paying to stack the deck in your favor"

Find me a copywriter who has worked for any length of time and has not run into (too many) clients that fumble the ball repeatedly all the way down the field, then turn it over at the goal line.

It sucks for everyone when that happens.

That's why highly-paid pros are picky about with whom, when and how we work.

We don't know who Scoke is, and he isn't telling.

We have no way of knowing what kind of business Scoke operates.

We have zero clue whether Scoke can drive 10 targeted visitors or 100,000.

None of us do - he hasn't given us any indication - at least not in the context of his appeal for a professional to engage with him. I'd presume he'll be happy to share all that and more during consultation.

But the discussion will never get that far for many... it's a non-starter.

Why?

Because we're all freakin' busy sweating over our current clients life or death crises already - we don't need a new hand to hold, especially not while we bleed out for you.

In terms of a "Teachable Moment", those seeking a spec deal from a professional copywriter who earns a decent living should consider filling in those gaps above.

I sincerely hope that Scoke finds a writer who can hit it out of the park for him...

...and I hope whomever he hires gets a client with the wherewithal to make the most of what you create together.

Call me a cynic, but I'm not optimistic.

Best to all,

Brian McLeod

[Mark Andrews]

Originally Posted by Scoke

Some rules are made to be broken.

I don't think you're serious about this. To you, this thread is a game.

I'm bowing out. Read and learn from both Daniel and Brian above.

[WillDL]

Scoke, the rule I've always heard (not a professional copy writer, I just work with them) is never write copy unless you are happy to write it for the money you get upfront. Because more people than not will screw you on the percentage. I hope you get someone in a deal that works for you, but let me give you something to think about.

Most copy writers with a solid record won't to work on a percentage with people they don't know. It isn't a matter of not trusting their work. It's a matter of not trusting the person. I know people that put in 80+ hours on a sales letter. That's a lot to ask on your word as someone new to the fields.

Sure you could absolutely set it up to be safe for the other player but that's a whole lot of extra work. Unless that copy writer knows something we don't (you haven't provided much detail on your product) and think you have the next hundred million dollar product, why take on that extra work on two uncertainties? People jumping blind at a % cut probably don't have a lot of experience.

When I started I wanted the same kind of deal. And no body worth their salt stepped up to accept it. But I got a lot of hacks who sounded really good. Know what happened to me? Nothing. Never got a single completed piece of copy from any of them. The second they got a paying gig, or their kid got sick, or their favorite show came on I got pushed to the backburner. The problem of maybe money later just wasn't enough to get them moving. So I used real, pay up front, established copy writers. I got great results.

The damndest thing is now many of them are willing (even suggest) taking percentages instead of upfront fees. Now they trust me. We have solid two year plus relationships. They trust me, know I don't put my name on crap and know my checks cash. And I have no interest anymore. The cost of copywriting is almost always recouped in 72 hours. It would cost me so much more to raise their long term from 1.5% to 15%.

Best of luck, I hope you find someone that works out for you.

[Scoke]

Originally Posted by Pete Walker

I don't think you're serious about this. To you, this thread is a game.

I'm bowing out. Read and learn from both Daniel and Brian above.

I'm taking this thread very seriously--very, very seriously. But, I'm not convinced that just because something has always been done a particular way that that's the best way. Or, that it's the best way for me.

[Scoke]

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

We don't know who Scoke is, and he isn't telling.

For the record, I'm a woman..One clear example of all the incorrect assumptions made about me...

[Mark Andrews]

One final question for you Scoke and I'm done...

What do you think of both Daniel and Brian's replies above?

[WillDL]

Originally Posted by Scoke

For the record, I'm a woman..One clear example of all the incorrect assumptions made about me...

Not an assumption. English does not have a gender neutral pronoun. It is technically correct to use the masculine when gender is unknown.


And now I'm done with this thread because we are all nit picking like grade schoolers. Everyone have a great weekend.

[Scoke]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Pete,

Hence why Vin recommend an up front fee + percentage deal. Keeps both of you focused and working hard.


But as a competent copywriter and business person, I make sure my "partner" has:

*A killer product
*A solid amount of marketing assets to draw on (list, ad capital, etc), and finally
*A ton of knowledge about marketing (and usually previous successes)

And it's usually on a 50/50 basis.

-Daniel

This is actually really helpful. It lets me know what I need to do to hold up my end of the bargain. It's a great starting point for me.

And, I agree that a blended model is fair for both me and the copywriter. I have no issue with this. What seems unfair is giving the copywriter all the money upfront with no risk on his/her part...I'm seeing some arguments here in the thread that the risk around the reputation is significant enough incentive...For someone who has been in the business for a while, they've built equity in their reputation...Hmm... Maybe...But, that's not as convincing as paying the person based on the results they actually produce.

[Scoke]

Originally Posted by Pete Walker

One final question for you Scoke and I'm done...

What do you think of both Daniel and Brian's replies above?

Honestly, I'm going to sleep, and I'll wake up tomorrow and re-read the whole thread, including the replies from Daniel and Brian. There are also some good recommendations on *sane* compensation structures that I want to pull out. But, I can't digest any more information right now--too tired.

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by Scoke

For the record, I'm a woman..One clear example of all the incorrect assumptions made about me...

Apologies.

One clear example of all the things none of us can know about you until you tell us.

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by Scoke

I'm relatively new to WF and --I need to hire someone to write a sales page for my product. All the copywriters I've spoken to (so far) want their fee before or upon delivery, with no guarantees around conversion.

BUT, how on earth do I know that after I've given the copywriter my $3000 (or, $5000 or $10000 or whatever)--and they walk away, that the page will convert? I'm not a gambler, and I AM willing to pay for a sales page that works. I'm NOT willing to pay for a page that doesn't.

How can I align the copywriter's economic incentive with mine? Thoughts anyone?

First of all, copywriting is a professional service business. And no professional service is "only pay if you're happy". Try pulling that with your dentist or mechanic and see how that turns out for you. I'm pretty sure it won't be in a direction of your liking.

Back to copywriting.

No copywriter ever gets 100% hits. No one, not even me. If I did, my fee would be one million dollars up front plus a hefty lifetime royalty. And there would be a line a block long of businesses & clients eager to hire me because of the 100% hit rate.

But no one hits 100% of the time so hiring a professional copywriter is a calculated business risk.

Like any calculated business risk, you can do all of the right things and still not see a your business succeed.

What you do get with an experienced copywriter is a significantly higher chance of success than if you hired a novice copywriter or attempted to write the copy yourself (assuming you aren't a skilled copywriter yourself).

The pro copywriter is far more likely to know how to best position and sell your product.

The pro copywriter is far more likely to identify any holes in your marketing plan that could kill your response rates if left uncorrected.

What the pro copywriter doesn't have is an abundance of free time.

Most of the top copywriters I know don't work on more than 1-2 projects per month because of how much TIME and mental energy they invest in each one.

In terms of copywriters for hire... it's a sellers market.

There are more businesses and prospective clients looking for copywriting help than there are high-quality copywriters available for hire.

It's been that way since I decided to start accepting copywriting clients 5 years ago. It's going to be that way 50 years from now too.

That means the copywriters that are in demand can name their price and their terms of doing business. That's neither good nor bad... that's just how it is.

As for the copy not converting, most copywriters I know will work with their clients to correct any underperforming salesletter that they wrote.

If you're paying them a flat fee then there's a finite amount of follow-up work they will do after the project is delivered. Each copywriter is different on what that is and it's typically spelled out on their website as part of their terms of doing business.

If you're paying them a fee plus royalty, then they will continue to tweak and work with you to improve the conversion rates over time because ultimately both of you will make more money that way.

So that's my advice to you: If you're worried about the copy not converting, then hire a copywriter for a flat fee (covers their overhead until your project is completed and/or launches) and a royalty for ongoing help to get it converting well.

Hope that helps,

Mike

P.S. As a few other people have mentioned directly or indirectly, a copywriter's professional reputation is priceless. The top-notch copywriters who have been doing this for more than one year understand this completely. They won't take on projects that they don't believe have a strong chance of success. They won't do things that will damage their professional reputation. They have worked too hard for too long to throw their career away over a few thousand dollars.

[Alex Cohen]

Personal injury and medical malpractice lawyers work on contingency. If they don't win the case, you don't pay.

What's that you say... they only take cases that have a good shot of winning?

Exactly.

Copywriters who work using a results-based model should do the same... vet their potential client and project thoroughly before accepting the assignment.

Alex

[MontelloMarketing]

Criminal defense attorneys do not, however. They are paid based on track record and reputation.

So... on one hand you've got creative professionals paid fairly for being a step above the pack... and on the other hand you have ambulance chasing bottom feeders.

Originally Posted by Alex Cohen

Personal injury and medical malpractice lawyers work on contingency. If they don't win the case, you don't pay.

What's that you say... they only take cases that have a good shot of winning?

Exactly.

Copywriters who work using a results-based model should do the same... vet their potential client and project thoroughly before accepting the assignment.

Alex

[WillDL]

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

and on the other hand you have ambulance chasing bottom feeders.

Absolutely uncool use of stereotype.

[kellyburdes]

I don't understand why any sane business person would want to take on any extra partners, and give up any penny of equity beyond the minimum requirement.

Even if you get the world's greatest copywriter to take you on (and you won't) at 20%, in the long run you'd be a hell of a lot better off to have paid 10 guys $3000 to fail!

Any business person who doesn't understand that isn't worth working with.

I'll lay out an example to try to make it more clear for you.

I have heard rumors that Vin has a sales letter doing around $250,000 per month, month after month, for a client. (If I'm wrong about this please correct me, I don't know Vin, I'm just going by memory on something I seem to recall having been posted here in the past).

I don't know what Vin's fee's are, but a lot of people at his level charge $25,000 to $50,000 up front, and then 3 to 5% of sales. Let's just for the sake of this example say he was $50K and and 5%, the most expensive examples.

Over the course of the first year your paying $200,000.

Or you could go and give him 20%, in which case your paying $50,000 each and every month - $600,000 a year! You could have half a dozen guys in a row flop and still come out ahead on the deal.

Which would you rather do?

So - This whole thing of if a copywriter believes in his writing he will work on performance only - it can be thrown right back at you too.

If you, as a vendor believe in your product and your ability to manage your business, why in the heck do you want to give up so much? Unless your insane or the writer is your worthless son in law I can't think of a good reason. Can you?

[Alex Cohen]

Originally Posted by kellyburdes

I don't understand why any sane business person would want to take on any extra partners, and give up any penny of equity beyond the minimum requirement.

Even if you get the world's greatest copywriter to take you on (and you won't) at 20%, in the long run you'd be a hell of a lot better off to have paid 10 guys $3000 to fail!

Any business person who doesn't understand that isn't worth working with.

They do it because they don't have the money to hire a quality copywriter up front.

You don't understand that?

Alex

[kellyburdes]

I understand that, but as you yourself pointed out in a prior post, a writer who does take clients on spec is likely to carefully vet them and make sure they can hold up their end.

I find it unlikely that someone who is able to hold up that end is going to be in a situation where cashflow is so bad they can't come up with $3000 to hire a decent writer.

And any person who is giving up equity in situations except where it's essential is a business idiot...maybe a great marketer, the two don't always go together, but they are a business mgnt idiot.

Originally Posted by Alex Cohen

They do it because they don't have the money to hire a quality copywriter up front.

You don't understand that?

Alex

[Alex Cohen]

Originally Posted by kellyburdes

I understand that, but as you yourself pointed out in a prior post, a writer who does take clients on spec is likely to carefully vet them and make sure they can hold up their end.

I find it unlikely that someone who is able to hold up that end is going to be in a situation where cashflow is so bad they can't come up with $3000 to hire a decent writer.

And any person who is giving up equity in situations except where it's essential is a business idiot...maybe a great marketer, the two don't always go together, but they are a business mgnt idiot.

One of the great advantages of starting an internet business is it can easily be done for less than $1,000.

Add the cost of a quality copywriter, however, and it's a bunch more money to get started.

So the person who only has $1,000 isn't insane or an idiot. They're smart, because by hiring a copywriter on spec, they've found a way to succeed bigger.

Alex