FREE advice. FREE advice. Step right up, get it while it's hot.

[gjabiz]

FREE advice for newer copywriters.

FREE. Take it for what it’s worth.

Newer copywriter, I want to tell you what I am CERTAIN about.

What I believe is carved in stone when it comes to copywriting, and this based upon my 35 years in mailorder, direct response advertising, Mail Order and Remote Direct Marketing.

Grab your pens, notepads and start writing.

The ONE absolute, positively unshakable, undeniable piece of knowledge that I possess is:

I Don’t Know.

”WHAT?? WTF?? Dude, you been doing this sh*t for 35 years and you don’t know? Nothing?
Are you an idiot? Moron? Stoopid?”

Maybe I am. I’ll leave that judgment in your hands.

I could give you an educated guess (some might say WELL educated) on whether your product has a market, if your promotion is on target, if the media is the right one, but to tell you if your promotion is dead wrong…or won’t work. I can’t do that. Because?

I don’t know.

I’ve lost thousands of dollars on mailings I was sure were winners.

Until the results came in.

On the other hand some came back a WINNER.

See? Copywriting, despite what some of these guys here say, is NOT an exact science.

If it were, there would be a software program that would allow us all to plug in our product and come out with the “Who Else Wants To”… headline.

People who are considered masters, Joe Sugarman comes to mind, readily admit that “timing” played a part in their success as much as the copywriting.

IF Joe knew…if he was CERTAIN about his copy working…JS&A would still be selling gadgets and gizmos…there wouldn’t have been the hundred thousand dollar fines from the FTC, and we all would be writing copy exactly as Joe told us to.

Alas. It is, I’m afraid, as much ART as it is science.

And even then, luck, timing and having the stars aligned helps.

OF course there are solid, tested and proven guidelines. And old fashioned salesmanship following a hundred year formula plays a role.

Sure you can “hedge the bet” a tad bit by following some savvy advice from those who have been there…just keep in mind, most, and I mean MOST who have been there…have difficulty duplicating their own success.

Some greats have even committed suicide when they ran dry.

Copywriting is NOT a science and the so-called RULES or the “must be adhered” to principles of the greats are frequently ignored…and mostly by those who have had BREAKTHROUGHS.

Here’s an ironic example…Gary Halbert, who was as smart and savvy and educated about copywriting as they get tells how when the lights were turned off, the water was shut off…when he and his family may soon starve to death…what did he do?

Did he turn to the copywriters’s for advice? He tried that and took their advice, heeded their words and failed miserably, which is why he was is such dire straits.

So he said, what if there were a gun to my head and I HAD to write something that worked?

Forget the experts, forget the masters and the teachers…forget everything I know about writing a sales letter and write a MUST SELL piece…

And the famous Nancy letter was written AFTER he tossed out all the advice of the GREATS…and it was Gary’s BREAKTHROUGH that led to a 100 million dollar company.

I’d bet that 100% of all BREAKTHROUGH copy was written by someone going against the grain of their day’s conventional wisdom, they swimming against the current, upstream…got to places the experts, advisors and opinion givers never got to.

Which is why I say, after so many years and working with, for and next to some tremendous marketers and copywriters…

I don’t know.

I admire the certainty of many on this forum, a couple of guys have been writing copy now, for, what…four or five years already?

They’ve read every book, can cite chapter and verse from Halbert, Kennedy, Abraham and Sugarman…could probably put on Sir Gary’s seminars from all the times they’ve watched it…

AND they are CERTAIN they know what is wrong with YOUR copy. YOUR offer. Your market.
They don’t hesitate to cream you with their knowledge of how it is supposed to be done, giving you principles, such as; Target a hungry market already looking for what you have to sell…

Which is solid and very good advice.

Did Halbert do that? He knew there was starving market of people wanting a coat of arms? Did Sugarman KNOW there was a hungry market for 200 dollar calculators when most people didn’t even know what a calculator was?

Sure, it’s great to enter a market with an established buying habit.
But is it a PRINCIPLE you have to live and or die by?

I don’t know, but I don't think is.

See, I really don’t know. I ask a lot of questions, such as who is the TARGET, how do you reach them, what do you say to them…is there an upsell, backsell, crosssell..is there a pipeline of products, a family of products or is there a Life Time Value attached to a new order?

I ask questions because I don’t know. I don’t know what you are trying to do. What you want to achieve.

So my FREE ADVICE to you newer copywriters is this:

Be very careful about the advice you receive regarding your project, product, your promotion or your first time copy attempt.

You will get many answers. Many of them are CERTAIN they know what will or will not work.

Arm yourself with a solid foundation of salesmanship and the works of the greats KNOWING and UNDERSTANDING that even they couldn’t replicate their successes every time…that it is a percentage game…the more you attempt, the better you may get.

Learn as much as you can…write, then write some more…but please KEEP THIS ONE thought in your forebrain…

Take FREE ADVICE with a grain of salt.

Sometimes, YOU know more than you think you do and your copy may NOT need to heed every opinion, every do this, don’t do that…it will never work…opinion you get from people trying to sell you a service.

THANK these pros for their time…but, maybe, just maybe…you’ll want to get a second opinion and even then, it may be in your best interest to ignore all the FREE advice you get…

But, hey,

I don’t know.

gjabiz

[Alex Cohen]

They don’t hesitate to cream you with their knowledge of how it is supposed to be done, giving you principles, such as; Target a hungry market already looking for what you have to sell…

Which is solid and very good advice.

Did Halbert do that? He knew there was starving market of people wanting a coat of arms? Did Sugarman KNOW there was a hungry market for 200 dollar calculators when most people didn’t even know what a calculator was?

Sure, it’s great to enter a market with an established buying habit.
But is it a PRINCIPLE you have to live and or die by?

And here's the ironic thing... it was Halbert who popularized the hungry market advice!

Crazy world we live in, eh?

Alex

[MissLizzie]

For me Pete, gjabiz sums it up when he says that copywriting advice is just a best guess about what will work. Now, that best guess may well be educated... and it may come out of years of experience, but you can't know exactly what the outcome of a campaign may be, (unless you have a Delorean time machine of course... )

That doesn't mean people shouldn't learn the basics of copywriting, psychology or salesmanship, as that's what will allow to make this best guess. And personally, I've got a lot out of that sort of advice on this forum - so a massive thank you to everyone who's contributed!

It's critiques that are more problematic... as on these threads, you always seem to get a wide spectrum of opinions, that often conflict. And who's right? Well, you can't say for certain, unless you test out everyone's ideas separately, which would take ages and be a complete exercise in pointlessness.

I'd also point out that there's always a thread on this forum about how any decent copywriter won't guarantee a conversion rate. Effectively, that's him or her saying I don't know whether this copy will work, but I've provided you with a well-written sales letter for your product that I think will convert, according to my knowledge and experience.

[Steve The Copywriter]

Gordons' post is one of the best you'll ever read.

Because...it's true.

Copywriting is, always has been, and always will be "selling in print."

A salesperson knocks on the door of a qualified prospect, they want, need and can afford your product or service.

You do a brilliant presentation, make an irresistible offer, answer any questions and handle all objections.

And ask for the order.

Will they buy?

Possibly, and the odds are good that they will.

But the reality is...

You don't know.

[The Copy Nazi]

To paraphrase the screenwriter William Goldman (talking about how prior to a movie's release, Hollywood has no real idea how well a film will do) - "Nobody knows anything".

[Mark Andrews]

Originally Posted by MissLizzie

I'd also point out that there's always a thread on this forum about how any decent copywriter won't guarantee a conversion rate. Effectively, that's him or her saying I don't know whether this copy will work, but I've provided you with a well-written sales letter for your product that I think will convert, according to my knowledge and experience.

Hello MissLizzie

You say this as though we're making an excuse.

This point has been covered time and time again on this forum. No copywriter can guarantee a conversion rate.

Let's say for example that you've got a product or a service aimed at the disability niche.

The copywriter writes you a brilliant piece of sales copy, it hits on every major benefit possible. But then upon delivery you have the job of marketing this to your target audience. And in doing so, you as a marketer you fail big time.

You don't know how to drive the targeted traffic you need to make this business a success. Either on or offline. In short you miss your target by a mile. And of course you end up sending an extraordinary amount of stone cold traffic to your offer.

Next you go back to your copywriter and say to them, 'Hey, I've sent 10,000 visitors to this website in the past month and not one single nibble of interest. Your copywriting sucks. All I got was a lousy 0.01% conversion rate'.

Now, is it, was it the copywriters fault that you just happened to target completely the wrong audience? Is it any wonder when I flash for example very cheap plastic bling jewelery under the noses of very rich people that they turn around and laugh at my offering?

You could have the best sales trainer in the world and still whatever you say to the wrong audience demographic, isn't going to make these people buy from you.

Would this be the sales trainer's fault or could it be that the product vendor or business owner actually just got it entirely wrong themselves but cannot admit responsibility for their own actions? And so think to themselves, 'Hey, I'll go back and blame my copywriter', or whoever.

What do you think MissLizzie?

[John_S]

The basis of copywriting -- as practiced here -- is the test.

And the basic gist of that kind of copywriting is "...Let's find out."

Now, outsiders think that is an admission of a weakness or lack of knowledge. To the contrary, that is acknowledgement of a desire to constantly learn, improve, and ....

...The realization markets are Moving Targets.

Not to mention, the forum post generally makes comments seem categorical, confident, pronouncements when in fact they are just comments.

Want the kind of nuanced argument which places a statement within a clear context of meaning? A forum post somebody is trying to get done before the microwave timer goes off is not the place to look.

Bluntness or perceived certainty can be a byproduct of nothing more than shortness of time.

[Daniel Scott]

Pete, I don't think that's what she's driving at. I think she's agreeing that the reason we don't guarantee conversions is legitimate.

Regarding the OP... I agree to a point. No one "knows" if something will or won't work. But we can often make pretty damn good guesses.

Like I say to prospective clients... if I could absolutely guarantee every letter I wrote was a winner, I'd charge six figures to write one.

Yes, there's a chance I won't hit it out of the park every time - though I always stand behind my work and tweak/rewrite if necessary.

But by hiring me you're definitely stacking the deck in your favor.

I say this because some people believe you don't need to write well... you just need to test a lot.

Sure... a thousand monkeys banging on a thousand typewriters will eventually come up with a killer sales letter...

But how much cash will you flush down the drain by taking that approach?

So to add to Gordon's point... I'll say this...

If you get advice from a top copywriter... you don't have to listen. They could certainly be wrong, after all.

But taking their advice and running with it is usually a pretty good starting point.

The trick then becomes separating the players from the pretenders...

But that's a whole other post.

-Daniel

[Mark Andrews]

All of us are just learning Daniel. And I for one, I love learning. And I make mistakes all the time. But it's from these mistakes often that I learn the most. And dust myself off and move on, every step taken, a step closer to the success I dream of.

I'll not give up. Not now. Life is too exciting.

Every day I bound out of bed and instantly I'm writing, researching the passion for this craft burning a hole in my soul. It's a bug and I'm addicted.

Hopefully one day I can really knock one out of the park and if I can serve my client very well, I'll be the happiest man on earth.

Wishing you a fantastic day Daniel. There's too much bad news in this world and it's a real pleasure to read many of the comments often in this forum and other places online. I've seen you grow from your beginnings and for sure you've come on by leaps and bounds in the copywriting industry. I find you quite invigorating these days.

Same goes for many of the copywriters on this forum. Too many names to mention. Each of you in your own way, every time you've taken time out of your schedule to post something up here, invariably it's been excellent advice. A bit rough around the edges at times, hell, you're bound to get that with us lot being so opionated but I wouldn't be where I am today, loving this vocation so much, if it wasn't for 'you lot'.

All of you are absolute gems. Even Malcolm Lambe. (Sorry, couldn't resist lol)

Kindest regards,


Pete Walker

[Daniel Scott]

Whatever you're on... I want some. Any chance it can pass through customs?

:P

-Daniel

[MissLizzie]

Pete - you've misunderstood me and taken my point out of context. (Sigh....)

All I meant was that noone can guarantee a conversion rate. You can have the best traffic sources in the world, the best copywriter in the world and the best product in the world, but that doesn't mean you're guaranteed conversions or a sure-fire hit, as frankly, they only exist in fairytales. Every business has flops and dud days after all. So, in other words, we're back to the original point. Noone knows exactly what will work - it's your best educated guess that's based on experience and expertise. Right?

And personally, if something flops, then I think that this puts everyone in a really tricky situation, whether they're the graphics guy, the traffic guy, the ghostwriter or the copywriter. What do you say to the person that employed you? All that you can say is that you genuinely did your job to the best of your abilities, and try to help them improve in the future.

[Mark Andrews]

Thanks MissLizzie.

If you read back to your original post you'll see instantly (hopefully) that this could very easily be read and interpreted a couple of ways. My apologies if my interpretation was wrong, but why not word it more obviously another time - so there is zero chance of misinterpretation? (Rhetorical question)

Kindest regards,


Pete Walker

[MissLizzie]

Pete - I've had a long day, working.... and it's now Saturday night on an internet discussion board. So why don't we both have a drink and agree to stay friends.

[HeySal]

GLABIZ --

That has got to be the most honest and accurate post I've seen on the WF to date.

Unpredictability is the biggest frustration in the fundraising arena as well as the sales - and political arenas.

What some people seem to think is that you can predict human actions statistically. And it's true to an extent. You can beat some odds now and then if you are armed with some good info.

Prediction is a determination resulting from logic -- and humans don't always respond according to logic. We can only predict how it would be logical for people to respond.

There's a breed of people on the net who insist that everything will run perfectly if you know the right formula. Sometimes they are right, and it makes sense to use one - but formulas aren't going to work 100% of the time because they depend on static logic. I don't think there's ever been a really successful marketer that hasn't had at least a couple of campaigns just plain inexplicably fail. They don't want people to know about their failures, of course, but they have them. It wasn't due to faults in how they set something up, as you will read in many e-books. It was the X factor - human response, that made them fail.

One word. Just one word can trigger a negative X factor response. Sometimes you can achieve the highest level of perfection in a system that can be achieved - yet fail.

There are people that will argue you on the fact. Sometimes their lives depend on them being delusional - or other people being delusional about what is being sold. Every now and then a person comes along with just plain insane luck, too. It's too bad that everyone believes they are working with systems that are just fail proof. They buy a lot of trash about systems that are "rock solid fail proof" then get frustrated to heck and back because the system isn't working for them.

If systems were fail proof - we'd not have any freedoms because it would be too easy to achieve complete control of the masses, and we'd not have any failures. It would be a snap for anyone to succeed. All they would need is the system.

When you see a sales page that says "any one can do this", rarely is it a lie. If it says "anyone can succeed doing this", it's hard to know if the writer is delusional or if they are just hoping that masses of buyers are.

[Alex Cohen]

Sorry for the offense Gordon.

I have deleted the offending post.

Alex

[Daniel Sanchez]

I met an infinitely wealthy Direct Marketer a few years back.

Easily one of the scariest copywriter's I have ever met. Makes millions.

I asked: How can get as good as you?

He said he had this teacher...Better than any course he ever took.

She taught him everything he could ever know about copywriting and then some. It's how he made 1.2 million in one day from one promotion.

He then went on to tell me "If you could master the secrets she reveals...you'll make even more than me!"

"Who is it?" I asked...

He leaned in close and whispered:

The market.

[RefundHost]

Originally Posted by gjabiz

I’ve lost thousands of dollars on mailings I was sure were winners.

Pitching carpet cleaning services to folks in government project apartments?

Perhaps you were offering ice to Eskimos?

Originally Posted by gjabiz

On the other hand the collective brain trust has had at times very little hope on some campaigns and debated about spending the money for a test…until it came back a WINNER.

All depends on WHAT you offer and to WHOM you offer it.

Bad copy will sell heaters to Eskimos.

"We sell small heaters that do not need electricity - they cost $125."

Originally Posted by gjabiz

Copywriting, despite what some of these guys here say, is NOT an exact science.

Here is the missing piece of the puzzle that has eluded you for 25 years:

Copywriting is indeed an exact science but
it is not the complete marketing activity.

The success or failure of ad copy relies on
who you are talking to, WHEN,
and what you are talking about.

Would the average teenager buy Depends undergarments TODAY?
- probably not.

Would their 88 year old grandmother? Possibly.

How about during 3 months after she breaks a hip?
Getting a higher probability of conversion there.

Would YOU buy Depends undergarments TODAY?
Not likely - but that may change in 30 years.
( or when you realize what this means lol )

I would not advertise Depends undergarments in SPORTS ILLUSTRATED or VOGUE MAGAZINE

but even a crappy ad about them in AARP Magazine
( American Association of Retired Persons ) would
eventually lead to sales.

I would not mail-out copy about Depends to a whole city
but would target retirement homes / senior apartments.

5 Bucks Says your ads that did not work would have worked if you had sent them to better qualified leads.

[gjabiz]

Yes, right on. Could have saved me wasted time working with such Toopid people. What were we thinking??...there's 25 years I'll never get back.

[MikeHumphreys]

Hey RefundHost,

Perhaps you should do your homework before you take pot shots at Gordon Jay Alexander (gjabiz). Because if you did, you'd discover that he's worked with some of biggest names in direct response marketing over the years that have done countless millions in sales. (Hint: He didn't do it selling a service for $5/year either).

In the offline world, it doesn't take much to lose money on a marketing project.

In my brick and mortar days, I used the wrong type of headline on a Yellow Page ad for my massage therapy center and watched that ad's response rate go from 1.5% to 0% for the next 12 months until I could change it.

The ad with that headline had converted very well as a Val-Pak mailer but as soon as I ran it in Yellow Pages, it completely bombed.

The ad cost my business $4K for the year to run... so every month when the bill came in I'd get the painful reminder of my mistake. And every month when I reviewed my marketing results and saw a big ZERO new clients from Yellow Pages, I'd get reminded again.

It's NOT just the copy.

Ask any financial newsletter who had a promo in the mail when 9/11 happened. Every single one of them flat-lined because the market dramatically changed.

It's NOT just the copy.

Copy is the 3rd most important element to nail after correctly targeting the right prospects and making the right offer. I've written marketing pieces that converted better than 15% to my house list before I even knew what the word copywriting meant... it would be several years later until I discovered John Caples classic copywriting book "Tested Advertising Methods" and read it cover to cover twice.

No copywriter, living or dead, has ever had a 100% success rate. If they did, their fee would probably start at $1 million dollars and a healthy royalty to hire them because they could be sure what they wrote would work.

No marketer, living or dead, has ever had a 100% success rate either.

The best any of us can do is to use our skills, knowledge, and expertise to best position a campaign for success... launch it... and see if the market proves us right.

My 3 cents,

Mike

[gjabiz]

Thanks Mike for being a level headed articulate guy...one of these days, when I grow up, I hope to achieve that kind of eveness.

gjabiz

[HeySal]

Copywriting is indeed an exact science

Well, I have sited the OP is the best post of at least the day - now I have an example of the most purely stupid.

Copy writing will NEVER be an exact science until science can nail down each and every word's reaction in the subconscious of each and every brain. You are reading this from someone who has a degree in linguistics and cognitive science -- someone that the military wanted to write propaganda for them.

Get an education from someone other than other online marketers -- and lets see if you would be so quick to make such an uninformed generalization.

If copy writing were an EXACT science nobody would have to test an ad. If it were an exact science, the right ad would produce 100% sales from the targeted audience.

You are here to be in business - use some sense and think about what you are saying before you say it. Good grief.

[arfasaira]

Originally Posted by RefundHost

5 Bucks Says your ads that did not work would have worked if you had sent them to better qualified leads.

You know you've said something silly when you take a proverbial battering...

And ripping into the OP without doing your homework is REALLY bad...

...as is claiming that copywriting is an exact science?

I mean, say again?

5 bucks says that you'll feel very silly in the morning.

[The Copy Nazi]

Originally Posted by arfasaira

You know you've said something silly when you take a proverbial battering...

And ripping into the OP without doing your homework is REALLY bad...

...as is claiming that copywriting is an exact science?

I mean, say again?

5 bucks says that you'll feel very silly in the morning.

Well...OK...I'll say it - the guy's being a dick. But he's new...so I'll cut him some slack. But he better start talking sense soon...not sh*t...

"Copywriting is indeed an exact science"

[Ken Strong]

OK, enough with the personal insults, well-deserved though they may be... great thread, let's get back on track now.

[gjabiz]

Originally Posted by Ken Strong

OK, enough with the personal insults, well-deserved though they may be... great thread, let's get back on track now.

Right on.

So, in that spirit, I'm going to give the newer copywriters my FORMULA, a couple of them might find it useful.

I think they would be better served if I started another, uh, less controversial thread.

I believe there is a lot of talent and ability on this forum and a great deal of advice is very good and notes should be taken...this thread was started for those few times when a newer copywriter might be inclined to take the critique or comments as gospel.

So, Ken is right on. Let's get back to a healthy discussion which we all may benefit from.

gjabiz

[RefundHost]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Hey RefundHost,

Perhaps you should do your homework before you take pot shots at Gordon Jay Alexander (gjabiz).

Mike

Since January 2011 alone, I have written TV ads for both McDonald's & Burger King restaurants ( Canada Only ) and H&R Block. That was my second copy for BK, btw.

My homework is ongoing. It will never be finished. I learn every day.

Only a person with incompetency in marketing would interpret my
original statements as "shots" or insults.

Rather, they were identifying a problem primarily caused by
the incompetency of a person other than the copywriter
- the market researcher - the dude who tells us who to write for.

Icompetency will always betray an amateur who happens to be paid like a pro.
They usually think "copy" is such an important thing.
It isn't.
It's secondary to understanding the audience for the ad.

Since questions about the audience ought to be where 90% of the
time is spent on formulating the ad ( copy, layout, font, colors, etc )
and any good copy writer knows it ....

... if you didn't know that before ... you are now a better "copywriter"

and also a more competent marketer all-around.

If there is any other way to interpret that -- do tell.

===================

I should not neglect to say however that
the concept that allowed me to have interest
from those names above was learned
right here on Warrior Forum

One notion I saw over and over again
and managed to ignore for a year
believing I knew what I was doing
but once I EMBRACED that simple notion
I realized how incompetent I was in marketing
and was myself a victim of the

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by RefundHost

Since January 2011 alone, I have written TV ads for both McDonald's & Burger King restaurants ( Canada Only ) and H&R Block. That was my second copy for BK, btw.

Okay... so much sales has your ads produced for McDonalds or Burger King? How about H&R Block?

What about conversion rates... number of new leads generated?

Did they make money... did they lose money... or can't your clients tell you because they don't TRACK their marketing?

If the Canadian version of Burger King or McDonalds is anything like the American ones then they don't have a clue on any of those metrics... especially Burger King. They rely on throwing billions of dollars into advertising so they can tell their shareholders and franchisees that they're running ads to get them more business.

Heck, Burger King has been targeting prospects BADLY for years with their advertising and company USP.

My homework is ongoing. It will never be finished. I learn every day.

That's the best thing you've said in this thread so far.

Only a person with incompetency in marketing would interpret my
original statements as "shots" or insults.

Really?

Your original post is filled with shots and insults all aimed at the OP.

Here's just one of them to refresh your memory.

Here is the missing piece of the puzzle that has eluded you for 25 years:

Rather, they were identifying a problem primarily caused by
the incompetency of a person other than the copywriter
- the market researcher - the dude who tells us who to write for.

Icompetency will always betray an amateur who happens to be paid like a pro.
They usually think "copy" is such an important thing.
It isn't.
It's secondary to understanding the audience for the ad.

You weren't talking to an amateur. You were talking to someone with more than 25 years in the trenches experience. Someone who has written copy... mentored on copy... and acted as a marketing director to hire copywriters on DM projects.

If you want to "educate" the masses, then start another thread so you can dazzle everyone with your expertise.

The fact that you are actively selling a $5 per YEAR hosting plan tells me that you don't have the strong marketing skills that you claim you do.

Of course, feel free to show use some of your marketing that you've written that produced significant results for you or your clients and prove me wrong.

Since questions about the audience ought to be where 90% of the
time is spent on formulating the ad ( copy, layout, font, colors, etc )
and any good copy writer knows it ....

... if you didn't know that before ... you are now a better "copywriter"

and also a more competent marketer all-around.

If there is any other way to interpret that -- do tell.

Yes, research is where top copywriters spend the majority of their time for each project but it's not just about studying the audience.

How about spending some time on the OFFER that is going to be made to the targeted prospects? How about spending some time to determine what other offers have converted well with that target market... what offers have NOT converted well either?

Studying the product in depth before you write a word of copy is usually a darn good idea too.

Smart marketers learn from mistakes... theirs and everyone elses.

Not so smart marketers are busy insulting other marketers... marketers who are willing to admit that they're not perfect.

My 3 cents,

Mike

[suigeneris]

I do some copy writing for a small company serving businesses across the country. I learned the ad writing business "on the fly" after miraculously landing a copywriting job when a very brave Pacific Northwest employer decided to take a chance and hire me -- even though I didn't have a single day's worth of "in the trenches" experience beforehand!

My resume documented that I had written four books and dozens of articles for magazines and newspapers, but writing advertising copy is a whole 'nuther animal!

Because of your excellent information (he has many -- and none of it will steer you wrong) and a few others by Joe Vitale, I was able to jump into the new job and truly wow diverse clients from the get-go. The information and insights on your website have been of great help to me.

[RefundHost]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Okay... so much sales has your ads produced for McDonalds or Burger King?

Burger King: The new ownership is very happy.
They won't tell me specifics. lol

McDonalds: Ads are in their 3rd quarterly contract and they have trippled the stations on which they are running them. I expect they have increased ad spend from $250K to about $3 Million.

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

How about H&R Block?

What about conversion rates... number of new leads generated?

No sales. Their problem was competition from Wal-Mart adding
tax return preparation services, which would have really hurt them.

So, to get leads who were already satisfied and to get their staff trained for the paying rush we offered FREE tax return prep before a certain date.

They are very, very, very happy with the results.
They have millions of new leads for next year to call at tax time
with a DISCOUNT for coming in early ( so they can train staff )
and they have all already found satisfaction there and
know what to expect with that service.

( Thanks to Eben P. - this was his teaching that did this )

There is no confidentiality required in any of this info above.

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Did they make money... did they lose money... or can't your clients tell you because they don't TRACK their marketing?

I can hardly believe that you could even suggest that about McDonalds. lol

They can accurately tell you how many

- white people with blue eyes
- white people with brown eyes

go to any given restaurant based on taste bud pattern trends
( taster, super-taster, etc )
in those groups by seeing their re-order needs for the different
sauces for their chicken nuggets. lol

Generally, they roll a few variations of ads regionally first,
then go national with the test-winner.

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

If the Canadian version of Burger King or McDonalds is anything like the American ones then they don't have a clue on any of those metrics...
especially Burger King. They rely on throwing billions of dollars into advertising so they can tell their shareholders and franchisees that they're running ads to get them more business.

lol - you have no idea how in-depth they go and that they do know.
There are some things I am not allowed to know
( or then their competitors might be doing it )

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Heck, Burger King has been targeting prospects BADLY for years with their advertising and company USP.

True - but you'll note that 3G Capital of Brazil bought BK recently
and you no longer see the ridiculous "insane burger king character".
GAWD I hated those ads.

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

You weren't talking to an amateur. You were talking to someone with more than 25 years in the trenches experience. Someone who has written copy... mentored on copy... and acted as a marketing director to hire copywriters on DM projects.

But some of his copy didn't work.

Why?

Ether"

Product/offer was a dog to begin with and he should have either walked from it ( for rep ) or kept his mouth shut about the failure to prequalify the offer

or because

the client overlooked the scientific aspect of it...and it seems he didn't know enough to ask before he wrote the copy: "Uh , so, who are we sending these to? Most Renters? Bungalos? Seniors? Young Families?"

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

If you want to "educate" the masses, then start another thread so you can dazzle everyone with your expertise.

Can I look forward to your all-knowing commentary? lol
Can you promise me that no matter what I'll write
you'll interpret it as insults and hogwash? lol

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

The fact that you are actively selling a $5 per YEAR hosting plan tells me that you don't have the strong marketing skills that you claim you do.

For me, the internet is for playing.
But the $5 offer I make has been getting over 30 inquiries per day
for several years now ( even before ClickBank-specific offer ).

I won't tell you the sales rate, but I earn money even when they don't buy ...because I have their email.

You fail to see the capture aspect there.
Which one of us is ..oh, nevermind. lol

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Of course, feel free to show use some of your marketing that you've written that produced significant results for you or your clients and prove me wrong.

PM me and tell me:
Online or offline?

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Yes, research is where top copywriters spend the majority of their time for each project but it's not just about studying the audience.

How would you know?
I have done some pretty significant things in the past year
but certainly don't consider myself a "top" copywriter.
I'm just wondering if you believe that you are.

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

How about spending some time on the OFFER that is going to be made to the targeted prospects? How about spending some time to determine what other offers have converted well with that target market... what offers have NOT converted well either?

This is what made this post worthy of my reply:
THIS IS FOR THE OTHER READERS - NOT YOU - NOT MY EGO ...
THE NEW GUYS ( or the ones having trouble )

I learned on WF to "sell (offer) what people are already buying"
and to ride the wave of natural tendencies rather than try to
convince people to buy something they are unfamiliar with or
that not many people seem to show they like yet.

This is what I explained to BK and McDonalds
( mind you after I had helped well over 300 other restaurants
around the world earn more from their advertising - of their
top-selling products lol )

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Studying the product in depth before you write a word of copy is usually a darn good idea too.

I used to do that too, but I found that makes for a complicated pitch with some things because one benefit ( a good one ) is all you need to sell it. Now I don't and get FAR BETTER results.

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Smart marketers learn from mistakes... theirs and everyone elses.

But only one kind gains real high-level competency.
I gained it when I realized that all I leaned about marketing
from self-proclaimed experts -even after 25 years of study
- books, courses - ( I was interested in marketing and
copy since age 15 or so ) was just the foundation.

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Not so smart marketers are busy insulting other marketers... marketers who are willing to admit that they're not perfect.

Some people are sensitive. They interpret many things as insult
when they are not, but merely facts. Some people even thing
"incompetence" = "stupidity". Totally different. Einstein or
Bill Gates probably could not tend bar or repair an engine,
but that does not mean they were/are stupid.

Some people are overprotective ( maybe cuz they were bullied
or are sensitive about their own failures or whatever ) and they
misinterpret such things above as "attacks". Jeeze.

I come here to learn.
Others come here to learn.
Touch to learn when some people are The Blind Leading The Blind
so when I see something that is obviously wrong - I challenge it,
so that others will not waste as much time as I did
ON THE WRONG THINGS.

1
Qualify the offer ( people buy it already? No? Don't spend $$$ on it )
( though you can give such things out for FREE and see the reviews - if they won't come get it FREE - you can't sell it )

2
Know the viewer ( not the ideal prospect-target, but who will REALLY see the ad )

Do those things right and your copy can be as simple as

"This _______ which ____________________ is $_____"


Marketing is fun for me. It's a serious hobby, nothing more.
A challenge. ( Some people have GOLF - I have marketing. )
Doing the ads mentioned about was like playing against Tiger
in The Master's or US Open. Of course, I needed to qualify to do it!

I do however appreciate your taking time
out of your busy copywriting schedule
to insult me . I feel very honored.

And I had a good laugh. lol

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Not so smart marketers are busy insulting other marketers... marketers who are willing to admit that they're not perfect.

[Ken_Caudill]

I've managed to sell a product or two with copy. If there's a magic sure-fire formula, I'd love to see it.

[yecall]

Hmmm.. the fact that you DON'T know makes me know that you DO know. LOL Wasn't it Lao Tzu who said, "Those who speak do not know and those who know do not speak?" Very wise. I guess every day is "back to the drawing board" day.

[pronetwriter]

This post reeks of honesty!There's a lot of BS out there on copywriting and everyone seems to be an expert.It's refreshing to find something different every once so often.Just write something that sells and forget the BS!