8 Things That P*** Me Off About Copywriters

[max5ty]

1. New copywriters are always quoting someone...

"Kennedy said this..."

Halbert said this..."

2. They lack any skills to be creative...

Everything they do is always based on what someone else has already done.

3, Most are Introverts.

Most copywriters by nature are introverts...they're not the most popular person at the party...they're usually the one that hangs back and is shy.

4. They're Suckers for any new idea...

Since most copywriters are salesman at heart...they usually will be the first to fall for any scam or scheme.

5. They're always talking about themselves...

Ever notice most of the posts on the WF?...Most usually go back to the person placing the post talking about themselves.

6. They're easily led astray...

Most copywriters can easily be led astray with someone pitching a new idea or selling a new course...how many have you bought?

7. They're usually loners...

Most copywriters are usually unhappy with others...if they don't fall into their definition of the perfect person.

8. They're all knowing...

Most copywriters think their idea of doing things is the right way.

Try and challenge their way of thinking...you've lost them.

Just a couple thoughts

[Studio13]

Thanks for that gnarly pontification.

[Mark Pescetti]

Originally Posted by max5ty

They're all knowing...

Most copywriters think their idea of doing things is the right way.

Try and challenge their way of thinking...you've lost them.

This is just ego.

Everybody's got one.

Veteran copywriters tend to believe they KNOW IT ALL (regardless of the fact that almost everything they learned is from other people!)

Now, we ALL know that nobody has ALL the answers.

But when you're accustomed to perceive things in a very particular way, for a long, long time, it's easy to argue with everyone and say, "YOU'RE WRONG!"

Of course, this is a trait of someone who is easily threatened by the knowledge, awareness and expertise of other people with opinions.

The point is...

Drop the know-it-all facade and LISTEN!

You don't know everything.

I don't care how much money you've made for yourself and/or other people.

REAL abundance is created by someone who is happy in ALL areas of their lives.

Likewise...

All areas of your life affect your work and money.

ANY conversation we have here on the CW Forum is about MORE than just the art of copywriting.

It's about who we are and HOW we use our unique perspectives to HELP other people overcome their own limitations to make gobs and gobs of money.

That being said...

I agree, copywriters are an interesting bunch of coconuts.

Mark

[abugah]

Originally Posted by Reflection Marketing

.


That being said...

I agree, copywriters are an interesting bunch of coconuts.

Mark

That's fascinating.

[itsjordan]

They use the terms "masterclass" and "revolution" to describe an ebook

[Tinkerbell]

Originally Posted by max5ty

1. New copywriters are always quoting someone... They lack any skills to be creative...

Tina Adams says: You must be right -- wait. I just quoted myself. I just quoted you. I'd quote some"thing" but no"thing" I've ever seen talked or typed or communicated anything I'd wanna repeat, so it'd be kinda hard to quote... unless you want me to tell you my washing machine said, " ."

Yeah, I know. That was bad. I've been trying to teach him not to curse. Sorry.

Originally Posted by max5ty

2. They lack any skills to be creative...Everything they do is always based on what someone else has already done.

Nothing new under the sun, Max5ty. No future vision goggles, either. How would you have us base things we do on something which happens five or ten years from now?

Originally Posted by max5ty

4. They're Suckers for any new idea...Since most copywriters are salesman at heart...they usually will be the first to fall for any scam or scheme.

"New Ideas" like ... quoting inanimate objects? Basing our work on some proven strategy or tactic from the future? Darn, I AM a sucker.

Originally Posted by max5ty

8. They're all knowing...Most copywriters think their idea of doing things is the right way. Try and challenge their way of thinking...you've lost them.

Happens all the time for me. But then, I know I'm always right, even when I'm wrong, so... lol.

Okay, okay, so I just wanted to post something, and decided to make light of your post. Apologies. It's Sunday afternoon and I'm bored.

[The Copy Nazi]

If someone describes himself as a "killer copywriter" - run the other way. Or throw up. Or both.

[eshapard]

What do you have against introverts?

[angiecolee]

I find that the principle of avoiding "always" and "never" (and avoiding mass generalizations) when describing things of this nature typically works for me.

[Marvin Johnston]

Originally Posted by max5ty

8. They're all knowing...

Most copywriters think their idea of doing things is the right way.

Try and challenge their way of thinking...you've lost them.

Just a couple thoughts

Probably the best response to that last point is anyone who wants to accomplish anything will think their way is the right way.

The people that don't think that way, from my experience, are the people who tend to not get anything done.

From your prior posts, I don't *think* you get ticked off at people who actually do something.

Marvin

[max5ty]

Originally Posted by Tinkerbell

Okay, okay, so I just wanted to post something, and decided to make light of your post. Apologies. It's Sunday afternoon and I'm bored.

Your posts are always good...put something up and we'll talk about it.

[marciayudkin]

3, Most are Introverts.

Most copywriters by nature are introverts...they're not the most popular person at the party

How can that p**s you off? Are you p**ssed off at tall people? People with freckles? Folks that stutter? People with the ability to run like the wind?

Introverts are born that way.

I'd rather hang out any day with people who would rather not go to dumb parties. They may not talk much but they have more to say.

Marcia Yudkin

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by max5ty

1. New copywriters are always quoting someone...

"Kennedy said this..."

Halbert said this…"

Well, if Dan Kennedy or Gary Halbert is talking… I'm listening. I'll gladly cop to that. ; )

Still, I think I understand your point about being slavish to the greats and the classic books.

I've had my own run-ins with folks here after posting comments that contravene "conventional wisdom".

My take is simple... stifling innovative thought because someone else said something in a book once upon a time? Your heroes would never be bridled by that, why should you?

Question everything, often.

2. They lack any skills to be creative...

Everything they do is always based on what someone else has already done.

This one makes me shift uncomfortably in my seat a little bit.

"Creative" is a mighty dangerous word for copywriters, although it's vital.

That's why smart marketers have the wonderful escape valve of TESTING, right?

Go friggin' nuts if you want, all in the name of creativity.

The numbers are impartial.

And the best part is, if your artistically fulfilling creative wins, you can crow about it endlessly - and you will.

3, Most are Introverts.

Most copywriters by nature are introverts...they're not the most popular person at the party...they're usually the one that hangs back and is shy.

Yeah… copywriters hate attention. LOL

4. They're Suckers for any new idea...

Since most copywriters are salesman at heart...they usually will be the first to fall for any scam or scheme.

I don't think this is true at all - at least not the way it's phrased.

If anything, I think copywriters tend to respect the hustle more than others, and give ourselves permission to explore more freely - with less attachment to outcomes.

Call it "impulsive science" if you want to attach a label to it.

Sometimes that's where the breakthroughs come from.

5. They're always talking about themselves...

Ever notice most of the posts on the WF?...Most usually go back to the person placing the post talking about themselves.

6. They're easily led astray...

Most copywriters can easily be led astray with someone pitching a new idea or selling a new course...how many have you bought?

Not specific to copywriters, just replace "copywriters" with "people".

7. They're usually loners...

Most copywriters are usually unhappy with others...if they don't fall into their definition of the perfect person.

Well, copywriting is by its very nature a solitary craft.

Ever sit at a conference table with a room full of knuckleheads chiming in about every other sentence? Writing copy by committee is one of the most frustrating punishments on earth.

So, yeah - one can expect to do lots of "quiet time" by yourself if you want to write copy for a living.

But I'm not sure how that next logical jump gets all the way over to "unhappy with others that don't fit their definition of the perfect person".

8. They're all knowing...

Most copywriters think their idea of doing things is the right way.

Try and challenge their way of thinking...you've lost them.

Ok, I understand your point about rigid thinking, and inflexible thinkers. I do…

But but but but...

We're not hired for our flexibility, or our creativity… or our flowing prose. You know this.

We're hired to be RIGHT more than we're wrong about what to say to create a result.

Otherwise, why on earth would any intelligent business person fork over $5k, $10k, $30k, $100k… plus a piece of the backend.. to ANY copywriter… except for a proven track record of the copywriter being right, and knowing what to do in their situation?

Anyway - this is certainly more fun that typing about jets, cars and why everyone else is broke.

Happy Advertising Orgy Day,

Brian

[max5ty]

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

Well, if Dan Kennedy or Gary Halbert is talking… I'm listening. I'll gladly cop to that. ; )

Still, I think I understand your point about being slavish to the greats and the classic books.

I've had my own run-ins with folks here after posting comments that contravene "conventional wisdom".

My take is simple... stifling innovative thought because someone else said something in a book once upon a time? Your heroes would never be bridled by that, why should you?

Question everything, often.



This one makes me shift uncomfortably in my seat a little bit.

"Creative" is a mighty dangerous word for copywriters, although it's vital.

That's why smart marketers have the wonderful escape valve of TESTING, right?

Go friggin' nuts if you want, all in the name of creativity.

The numbers are impartial.

And the best part is, if your artistically fulfilling creative wins, you can crow about it endlessly - and you will.



Yeah… copywriters hate attention. LOL



I don't think this is true at all - at least not the way it's phrased.

If anything, I think copywriters tend to respect the hustle more than others, and give ourselves permission to explore more freely - with less attachment to outcomes.

Call it "impulsive science" if you want to attach a label to it.

Sometimes that's where the breakthroughs come from.







Not specific to copywriters, just replace "copywriters" with "people".



Well, copywriting is by its very nature a solitary craft.

Ever sit at a conference table with a room full of knuckleheads chiming in about every other sentence? Writing copy by committee is one of the most frustrating punishments on earth.

So, yeah - one can expect to do lots of "quiet time" by yourself if you want to write copy for a living.

But I'm not sure how that next logical jump gets all the way over to "unhappy with others that don't fit their definition of the perfect person".



Ok, I understand your point about rigid thinking, and inflexible thinkers. I do…

But but but but...

We're not hired for our flexibility, or our creativity… or our flowing prose. You know this.

We're hired to be RIGHT more than we're wrong about what to say to create a result.

Otherwise, why on earth would any intelligent business person fork over $5k, $10k, $30k, $100k… plus a piece of the backend.. to ANY copywriter… except for a proven track record of the copywriter being right, and knowing what to do in their situation?

Anyway - this is certainly more fun that typing about jets, cars and why everyone else is broke.

Happy Advertising Orgy Day,

Brian

Thanks for the feedback Brian.

When I first got on this forum...which wasn't too long ago, I thought you were just another a**hole with a big signature.

Then I got to looking into your work...copywriters know how to do good research

I was amazed at your ability...

You're definitely one of the best there is.

[Mark Andrews]

1. True.

2. Codswallop.

3. Bafflegab.

4. Piffle.

5. Possibly.

6. Tripe.

7. Hmmmmm.

8. Kagmag.


Mark Andrews

[arfasaira]

3, Most are Introverts.

Most copywriters by nature are introverts...they're not the most popular person at the party...they're usually the one that hangs back and is shy.



Speak for yourself darling, I'm certainly NOT one of those shrinking violets...and in any case, introverts tend to be pretty wise as they listen and observe more than just talk...




4. They're Suckers for any new idea...

Since most copywriters are salesman at heart...they usually will be the first to fall for any scam or scheme.


Not really - I like 'falling' for new ideas because I like to dissect how effective the copy is...

And I like to see all elements of the copy like the report and the video blah blah


5. They're always talking about themselves...


You mean like you do about your Bently's and jets?



6. They're easily led astray...

Most copywriters can easily be led astray with someone pitching a new idea or selling a new course...how many have you bought?


Ok, you got me there....



7. They're usually loners...

Most copywriters are usually unhappy with others...if they don't fall into their definition of the perfect person.


Rubbish. Copywriting is a lonely skill because most of your time is spent working for yourself from the sanctuary of your own office...but that doesn't make us loners at all!


8. They're all knowing...

Most copywriters think their idea of doing things is the right way.

Try and challenge their way of thinking...you've lost them.

Just a couple thoughts


Well, I've seen enough scraps on this forum to say that's probably true...

[max5ty]

Originally Posted by Mark Andrews

1. True.

2. Codswallop.

3. Bafflegab.

4. Piffle.

5. Possibly.

6. Tripe.

7. Hmmmmm.

8. Kagmag.


Mark Andrews

Love your thoughts...just keep thinkin of you that one night...

[max5ty]

Originally Posted by arfasaira

3, Most are Introverts.

Most copywriters by nature are introverts...they're not the most popular person at the party...they're usually the one that hangs back and is shy.



Speak for yourself darling, I'm certainly NOT one of those shrinking violets...and in any case, introverts tend to be pretty wise as they listen and observe more than just talk...




4. They're Suckers for any new idea...

Since most copywriters are salesman at heart...they usually will be the first to fall for any scam or scheme.


Not really - I like 'falling' for new ideas because I like to dissect how effective the copy is...

And I like to see all elements of the copy like the report and the video blah blah


5. They're always talking about themselves...


You mean like you do about your Bently's and jets?



6. They're easily led astray...

Most copywriters can easily be led astray with someone pitching a new idea or selling a new course...how many have you bought?


Ok, you got me there....



7. They're usually loners...

Most copywriters are usually unhappy with others...if they don't fall into their definition of the perfect person.


Rubbish. Copywriting is a lonely skill because most of your time is spent working for yourself from the sanctuary of your own office...but that doesn't make us loners at all!


8. They're all knowing...

Most copywriters think their idea of doing things is the right way.

Try and challenge their way of thinking...you've lost them.

Just a couple thoughts


Well, I've seen enough scraps on this forum to say that's probably true...

Thanks Arfa, you're my favorite female copywriter...only because you're good at what you do.

On second thought...you're better than most, irregardless of what sex they are.

[marciayudkin]

8. Kagmag.

I have to say, I have learned more foreign (foreign to me, at least) slang on the Warrior Forum than in any other venue or medium.

Thank you.

Marcia Yudkin

[arfasaira]

Originally Posted by max5ty

Thanks Arfa, you're my favorite female copywriter...only because you're good at what you do.

On second thought...you're better than most, irregardless of what sex they are.

Thanks a lot...although...

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not!

[max5ty]

Originally Posted by arfasaira

Thanks a lot...although...

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not!

Of course I'm serious...

I spent about 4 hours a few weeks ago looking at all your work...I could find...at the end of my research, I thought...wow, she's good.

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by max5ty

Thanks for the feedback Brian.

When I first got on this forum...which wasn't too long ago, I thought you were just another a**hole with a big signature.

Then I got to looking into your work...copywriters know how to do good research

I was amazed at your ability...

You're definitely one of the best there is.

I appreciate that... but honestly, it's just not true.

I'm very fortunate to be around and work with guys who really ARE some of the very best in the biz. Garf is an obvious example. But same with David Deutsch - his work will humble ya, real fast.

Yeah, I'm damn good. Way better than most.

One of the best in the biz? Not even close... not yet... probably never.

Best,

Brian

[OliviaHoang]

WOW! All of that describes me PERFECTLY!

Did you think anyone would admit that?

[Mark Andrews]

Originally Posted by marciayudkin

I have to say, I have learned more foreign (foreign to me, at least) slang on the Warrior Forum than in any other venue or medium.

Thank you.

Marcia Yudkin

Kagmag is a Black Country expression meaning, bad meat.

And the Black Country - Black Country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kindest regards,


Mark Andrews

[premiumonlinewriting]

I read through most of the first post and I was like, "Pfft, whatever. That's not me."

Then I got to Number 7 and I was like, "Alright. Touche."

[DougBarger]

Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi

If someone describes himself as a "killer copywriter" - run the other way. Or throw up. Or both.

Exactly. "a" killer copywriter.

But the same doesn't apply to The Killer Copywriter.


And following the same logic, if you're drowning in the ocean and someone throws you a lifeline,
whatever you do, swim far, far away and puke or both.

If you're starving and someone offers you food, run for dear life.

If your conversion rate suffers, run far away and puke before you do the one
thing that can raise it.

[Nick Brighton]

Are you talking about ALL copywriters, or NEW copywriters?

Either way, seems like a sweeping generalization to me, even if you're talking about NEW copywriters.

But if we're playing that game, then I'd like to add:

9. They write misleading headlines.

[Shawn Lee]

1. New copywriters are always quoting someone...

For anyone who is new in anything, of course they do not have much experience. Hence, the only knowledge the have probably comes from someone else. This is true for most of anything out there.

2. They lack any skills to be creative...

Take a look at SEO. Take a look at the education sector. Take a look at the IT sector. What I'm saying is that, for every area in life, there will always be a small percentage of elites that will far exceed the majority in terms of performance (or creativity). Personally, I've seen quite a few unconventional and creative sales copy (perhaps you were not looking hard enough).

3, Most are Introverts.

Firstly, you know too little information on the copywriter's true personality to judge them. The nature of copywriting itself may be introversion oriented, but that does not mean that the writer himself is an introverted. Secondly, by this statement, I can guess that you don't know much about personalities. They way you say it makes me think that you have a very negative view about introverts. I just got to say, Google "MBTI". It may shock you to find out that introverts are not what you think they are.

4. They're Suckers for any new idea...

Valid point. Haha.

5. They're always talking about themselves...

It's called marketing. Everyone does this. If you don't say how good your services are, no one is going to buy baby. Although many of the better copywriters don't really do this.

6. They're easily led astray...

This depends on the individual.

7. They're usually loners...

Again, Google "MBTI". You may see introverts as loners, rude, etc whereas they may see you as arrogant, fake, etc. It's just a personality clash.

8. They're all knowing...

Again, applies to almost every sector of life and business.




In conclusion, I find this post very immature. There's no way anyone could make such a sweeping statement on any industry. For every vocation, there are bound to be all types of people. While they may be some copywriters who will fit your description, there are many others who are like nothing you've mentioned. Finally, all I can say is it depends on the individual, though the nature of the job has some influence on it.

[CopyMonster]

Seriously Max?

Give them power much?

Just saying.

[DianaHeuser]

A man of few words

Originally Posted by Mark Andrews

1. True.

2. Codswallop.

3. Bafflegab.

4. Piffle.

5. Possibly.

6. Tripe.

7. Hmmmmm.

8. Kagmag.


Mark Andrews

[max5ty]

Guys, this whole post was about my personal thoughts.

No matter what any say, most of what I said is spot on.

If you disagree with the post...I appreciate your feedback.

I still stand by what I wrote.

[jimbo13]

Originally Posted by Shawn Lee

In conclusion, I find this post very immature. There's no way anyone could make such a sweeping statement on any industry. For every vocation, there are bound to be all types of people.

Accountants are....................?

Engineers are........................?

etc

Dan

[BarryADensa]

So what's the point you're trying to make -- that copywriters are human, all too much so?

So what, even if all that you say is true -- and you hire a copywriter that is all that and more (or worse) but yet lifts your conversions, increases your sales -- makes you money -- exponentially more than you paid said copywriter -- why would you care whether they are... less than humble?

[buckeyes09]

Broad strokes much?

[TheNightOwl]

Originally Posted by marciayudkin

They may not talk much but they have more to say.

_Applause_

[linaO]

Originally Posted by KevinLevi

...and none of your 8 things apply to me.

Hey, about 6 of those 8 apply to me Wish I would've found this thread sooner, but I was too busy being a loner. Oh hell.

[AlanCarr]

Ah, and there's me strolling in here for some light relief... after dealing with a nightmare client...

Don't get me started, no, don't even go close to that place!

I mean who, what kind of... No Alan.. Noooo..



*sigh*



AC

[Marc Rodill]

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

I appreciate that... but honestly, it's just not true.

I'm very fortunate to be around and work with guys who really ARE some of the very best in the biz. Garf is an obvious example. But same with David Deutsch - his work will humble ya, real fast.

Yeah, I'm damn good. Way better than most.

One of the best in the biz? Not even close... not yet... probably never.

Best,

Brian

WTF!!!

You humble son of a...

How ANNOYING. I mean...

Impressive. I'm impressed. Pascal would be, too.

Marc

PS. I like turtles.

[YasirYar]

Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi

If someone describes himself as a "killer copywriter" - run the other way. Or throw up. Or both.

Killer copywriters are real. The best part is that they don't lie. They clearly tell you what they intend doing to your business.

[DougBarger]

That's true! Finally someone who gets it.

You're right. No lie. Clearly communicate the intention to grow every part of your business with higher sales conversions, add value, cut costs and maximize roi.

And unlike the few ignorant oddballs casting aspersions here,

then proceed to do it.

[alina75]

Hello,

thanks for this post and i like the gnarly pontification.

[Bill Jeffels]

"Yeah, I'm damn good. Way better than most.

One of the best in the biz? Not even close...."

I thought you were a rocker, Brian

Now you're rapping too- Lol.


Jeffels



.

[weheartcontent]

Originally Posted by max5ty

4. They're Suckers for any new idea...

Since most copywriters are salesman at heart...they usually will be the first to fall for any scam or scheme.

6. They're easily led astray...

Most copywriters can easily be led astray with someone pitching a new idea or selling a new course...how many have you bought?

People who fall into this category can't consider themselves as copywriters, can they?

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by weheartcontent

People who fall into this category can't consider themselves as copywriters, can they?

When did copywriters stop being human?

[Simon Ashari]

Someone has to sell. I'm sure that pisses a few people off.

-Simon

[TeamFreedom]

You know what?


"You piss me off for even writing this thread."

I've lurked in this forum long enough to kinda get the idea that most players who write crazy check lists or pseudo "angry posts"

Are just testing out their strength to see whether they get a reaction. Are you one of these types?

It's okay, we understand. It's hard getting ideas & responses when you won't come out of your house.

Copywriters, introverts? Really? Seriously?

Bruce Wedding, Copy Nazi, Mark (Insert last name here) seem like guys that I would love to go out with, get a few beers with.

What is an introvert to you?

You are interesting dude. Interesting..

[guitarizma]

Is there something wrong in being an introvert and what does it have to do with copywriting anyway? Well, almost the entire list mentioned talks about human nature in general (almost all points). There are people with all these traits and still doing something other than copywriting, right?

BTW, one has to be a coconut to be a "saleable" writer. LOL

[sethczerepak]

Wow, what a great post. Wherever can I subscribe for your newsletter and get more of this valuable wisdom?

[TopKat22]

Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston

Probably the best response to that last point is anyone who wants to accomplish anything will think their way is the right way.

The people that don't think that way, from my experience, are the people who tend to not get anything done.

Marvin

In the things I've done that I've been successful at, each one, I thought were A right way for me, NOT THE right way for all.

I have come to learn there can be many "right" ways. As I always so, the proof is in the results.

I don't believe that thinking your way is the right way and getting anything done that gets results is in any way related.

[Affiliate Mom]

LOL all I can say is if you hire a $1 an article copywriter you get a dollars worth of article, if you buy a $5 article you get $5 worth of wisdom, experience and writing, if you want everything done the way you want it and want someone to spend hours researching and writing the perfect copy , you really have to be willing to pay for it.

You get what you pay for.....

On the flip side you should hear what I a lot of copywriters say about Internet Marketers, it is amusing to say the least.