A Disturbing Trend In The "Internet Marketing" Industry

[RickGueli]

Dear All,

This letter probably won't make me popular with a good chunk of the Internet Marketing crowd, especially those who are in the business of selling "Make Money Online" how-to's, but this needs to be said, and someone has to say it.

There has been a disturbing (and GROWING) trend in people's copywriting in particular these last few years. It is a trend that probably started with "The Rich Jerk", and from there, it has become in vogue with more product launches by others than I care count.

I am talking about "Guru bashing" and frankly, as someone who has been actively investing in Internet Marketing products for years, I can tell you it is a huge TURN-OFF.

I suppose every good story requires a "boogeyman", but seriously guys, you are not in this industry to entertain. You are in it to educate, and offer the industry an expanding air of legitimacy "as opposed to" the gurus you accuse of not doing.

And you are not doing anything of the sort. Nor are you succeeding in lending yourselves credibility by resorting to these character-assassination tactics. For one thing, it smacks of dishonesty. There are plenty of "gurus" who rightfully deserve that title because they have been incredible influences in the lives and the education of their students. Who in their right mind could accuse Rich Schefren, or John Reese, or Dan Kennedy (etc.) of "misleading" people about making money or expanding their businesses?

For another, it reeks of hypocricy: "Guru Bashers" would be the FIRST to hop on those same guru's huge email lists to push their product if they gave them leway (and they sometimes DO, which in turn gets me wondering precisely who this "guru" is that they are bashing in their salesletters when they have been recommended by those enjoying "gurus"-status in the IM niche).

Finally, and again, it sullies the good name of this industry. It erodes its legitimacy. And it's a such a shame, when this is one industry where so many have invested so much of themselves emotionally, mentally, and even physically to maintain their hope for a better future.

And if you are in the business to educate people about making money online, then you are in the business of taking on a huge (really, LOFTY) responsibility. And with every responsibility comes the need for a strong moral foundation; for honesty, for integrity.

Some of you might say "Hey, I am making huge sales... so the guru bashing WORKS!" Sorry, I can guarantee that it is not the guru bashing that is enabling your sales. Sometimes, you succeed in selling DESPITE the "turn-off" because so many are so desperate for new, easier ways to convert higher, to drive more traffic... to pay an upcoming bill... that they invest anyway.

If you MUST have a "boogeyman" to bash in your copywriting to make it more entertaining or compelling, then by all means, tear apart a certain hitherto "established" but inferior method of article marketing... or press releasing... or SEOing... or whatever. Explain why they don't work as well, and THEN introduce the better "blueprint" for those that you are selling.

Case-study: In my "The Secret Potency Report" copy, I am dealing with an industry that is RIFE with "better sex" eBooks/audios/etc. But I do not resort to "guru assassination" to make sales. The "boogeyman" I use are lesser forms of sexual nutrition, and I explain how my nutritional blueprint is better.

And the letter converts like crazy! (For you copywriters out there, feel free to study it).

Believe me, you CAN sell just as much (if nore more) of your product without resorting to hypocricy or dishonesty. I can not tell you how many times I have closed a salesletter half-way because of this. With some of you (you would be surprised at the names I could mention) it has gotten to a stage where I don't bother even opening their emails to "unsubscribe".

Sad, when said "guru bashers" potentially have so much more value to offer than scare "marketing terrorism" tactics.

It is my ardent wish that this letter is spread forward or discussed right here. This is a worthy industry, and some degree of legitimacy needs to be restored in it.

Rick

[RickGueli]

My friend, I know what guru-bashing in copy is intended to do. And in the IM/MMO niche, this WOULD have been more effective some five years ago if it was done by ONE or TWO trail-blazers or stray marketers (aka "Rich Jerk"), but since, nearly EVERYONE and their brother is all "let's go Guru a'bashin to make sales!"

The industry as it is right now is filled more with "Me-Too"s than lone rebel-rousers. Sad. In a recent "Mass Control 2.0" video, Frank Kern made a gesture to this when he pointed out how Anthony Robbins' testimonial was great in giving (I think the term he used was "RESTORING") some legitimacy to the IM/MMO industry. I don't think that's co-incidence.

Rick

[AndrewCavanagh]

Generally speaking putting down your competition or other products or gurus is a TERRIBLE way to start a sales letter.

You're creating a negative perception of your product or service and you have a long road to travel just to get your prospect back to zero.

This kind of bashing in a sales letter is usually done by amateurs who haven't done their homework properly...getting to know their prospects and what their product can do for their prospects.

Focus on the positive benefits to your prospect of what you're selling and you're likely to do a whole lot better with your copy.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

P.S. One final point. If you have a "guru bashing" type sales letter that does convert has it ever occured to you that the buyers you get may not be the best buyers in the world?

One of the keys to successful marketing is to bring in high quality clients and sell to them over and over.

You may want to think through what kind of clients your sales letter is going to attract.

[Prevalent]

A few observations....

1) It seems rather ironic that you pen a letter bashing "guru bashing" but are guilty of some bashing in this exact same letter!

2)

I suppose every good story requires a "boogeyman", but seriously guys, you are not in this industry to entertain. You are in it to educate, and offer the industry an expanding air of legitimacy "as opposed to" the gurus you accuse of not doing.

Wrong....people are doing this to make money. Business is business. You may help and educate people in the process...but the goal is to pay mortgages....take vacations...and put kids through college. Don't forget that.

3) You place a link to your own product in this complaint? This makes it even more ironic. In the process of bashing about guru bashing you engage in blatant profiteering to promote your product. LOL

4) This "disturbing trend" you speak of will continue as long as it makes cashola...cash is king. Conversions determine the method...nothing else.

5)

Believe me, you CAN sell just as much (if nore more) of your product without resorting to hypocricy or dishonesty.

I don't agree or disagree...but do you have any NUMBERS to prove what you are saying? Have you TESTED BOTH types of letters to KNOW which one works better?

Some people say words like "dishonesty" and some say "salesmanship." The POINT...Rick.....is to SELL.

You seem to miss the fact that every seller must distinguish himself somehow...the oldest sales tactic ever. It people think you widget is just like every other widget they have tried...they wont buy. Distinguishing from your competition is REQUIRED.

[RickGueli]

Originally Posted by Daniel McCoy

A few observations....

1) It seems rather ironic that you pen a letter bashing "guru bashing" but are guilty of some bashing in this exact same letter!

2)


Wrong....people are doing this to make money. Business is business. You may help and educate people in the process...but the goal is to pay mortgages....take vacations...and put kids through college. Don't forget that.

3) You place a link to your own product in this complaint? This makes it even more ironic. In the process of bashing about guru bashing you engage in blatant profiteering to promote your product. LOL

4) This "disturbing trend" you speak of will continue as long as it makes cashola...cash is king. Conversions determine the method...nothing else.

5)

I don't agree or disagree...but do you have any NUMBERS to prove what you are saying? Have you TESTED BOTH types of letters to KNOW which one works better?

Some people say words like "dishonesty" and some say "salesmanship." The POINT...Rick.....is to SELL.

You seem to miss the fact that every seller must distinguish himself somehow...the oldest sales tactic ever. It people think you widget is just like every other widget they have tried...they wont buy. Distinguishing from your competition is REQUIRED.

Okay, item #1: What I am bashing here is a METHODOLOGY. There is nothing wrong with "bashing" within a legitimate context - something that can NOT be observed of being the case with the "guru bashing" that is pervalent in the IM/MMO niche.

item #2: Sure, people are in it to make money. But at what cost to the industry?

item #3: Your accusation is baseless. I have placed a link to that same website, WITHIN this "Copywriting" forum to get feedback on the copy before. I did not make any sales then, nor am I expecting to at all this time around (afterall, this is an IM-related forum, not a male potency-related forum).

You seem to miss the fact that every seller must distinguish himself somehow...the oldest sales tactic ever. It people think you widget is just like every other widget they have tried...they wont buy. Distinguishing from your competition is REQUIRED.

Hahahahaha, "every seller" has been doing NO SUCH THING in the IM/MMO niche. EVERYONE is bashing gurus. What folks like me (and I can assure you I am not the only one) see is a bunch of "Me-too"s trying to come across as unique and (as you put it) "distinguished" and failing to do so. Afterall, what TRULY distinguishes one "guru basher" from "another"?

I think the best way to distinguish themselves would be through honesty about the effectiveness of their products. And case studies. (Something the gurus they routinely bash actually spend time DOING in THEIR salesletters.)

[RickGueli]

Originally Posted by Jeff Hope

I'm not saying I like them - what I'm saying is that apparently those type of sales letters are working best right now for those products, or else we wouldn't be seeing them so often. I work primarily with affiliate marketers (non-IM, physical products) and offline businesses, and I'm on maybe 2 IM lists, so I rarely encounter this fortunately.

Don't forget, there are a lot of newbies coming in these days, and they're not nearly as cynical and jaded to all of this as you & I may be. But they're probably read a little about "gurus" and that may be what this type of sales approach is playing at.

I guess this conversation goes back to the Seth Godin / All Marketers Are Liars discussion on the main board. Hypocrisy and dishonesty are often in the eye of the beholder,and how far is too far?

All good points, Jeff. Though consider how a newbie to IM, in all his naivite, would then excitedly go and subscribe to more than one newsletter, read more than one salesletter (often in a span of a few days if not hours, thanks to "gurus"/"guru bashers" routinely recommending one another's products) and then wind up wondering: "Well, what's going on here?"

I can tell you for a fact that this is a very real scenario based on my own personal experience. And, my brother who himself IS a newbie to MMO and yet within a month of me introducing him to it was THE ONE to ask me what was with all the "guru bashing" or whatever.

Ironically, I find that the most SUCCESSFUL folks in the IM community don't go about resorting to these tactics. I think in spirit of the mindset that is conducive to success, much can be gleaned from observing this alone.

[kenetrix]

I'm not saying I like them - what I'm saying is that apparently those type of sales letters are working best right now for those products, or else we wouldn't be seeing them so often.

The reason these types of sales letters are being seen so often is not because they have been split-tested and found to convert better.

They are being seen so often because, quite simply, the method is being (blindly) copied, with little or no regard to any factual basis.

I am totally convinced that a split-test of the exact same sales letter, with one version have the "guru-bashing" aspect, and the other without it, the latter would convert far better and much more consistently.

This "disturbing trend" is really just a case of blind "me too" modeling of what the unexperienced and unprofessional sales letter writers "think" is an "important" element of their sales message.

It is only the lucky ones that eventually wake up to the fact that it's actually working against them, in terms of conversions.

-Ken

[RickGueli]

Originally Posted by kenetrix

The reason these types of sales letters are being seen so often is not because they have been split-tested and found to convert better.

They are being seen so often because, quite simply, the method is being (blindly) copied, with little or no regard to any factual basis.

I am totally convinced that a split-test of the exact same sales letter, with one version have the "guru-bashing" aspect, and the other without it, the latter would convert far better and much more consistently.

This "disturbing trend" is really just a case of blind "me too" modeling of what the unexperienced and unprofessional sales letter writers "think" is an "important" element of their sales message.

It is only the lucky ones that eventually wake up to the fact that it's actually working against them, in terms of conversions.

-Ken

THANK YOU! Couldn't have said it better myself.

At the end of the day, it is also just not a savvy thing to do long term, business-wise. What if of an email list of 8000 hard-won subscribers, 2/3rd of them no longer open up your emails because they have learned not to take your words seriously enough?

What a shame that would be.

[kenetrix]

At the end of the day, it is also just not a savvy thing to do long term, business-wise. What if of an email list of 8000 hard-won subscribers, 2/3rd of them no longer open up your emails because they have learned not to take your words seriously enough?

Sadly, that is exactly what is likely to happen, in the long run.

The main reason while people remain subscribed to your list, over the course of time, is because you have gained their trust and respect, and have provided them with good content and advice (as well as some truly worthwhile product recommendations, of course).

But all you need to do is betray that trust, by going outside your normal "conversational mode" with them, and they will sense it right away.

The fact is that these are folks who (to a greater or lesser extent) have come to "know" you, so if they suddenly have a reason to feel you are not being honest with them, the impact of that will be severe, more often than not, and the consequences could be severe.

As always, you should be yourself, and speak to your list members as individuals and as friends.

Respect them, and they will respect you back.

It is how I built my list of 47,312 subscribers, and 90% of them have been on my list for over a year. Not a bad "stick rate".

-Ken

[RickGueli]

It is how I built my list of 47,312 subscribers, and 90% of them have been on my list for over a year. Not a bad "stick rate".

Not bad at all! More power to you.

Rick

[Rus Sells]

Guru bashing is as old as business itself. Its based on the misconception that making your competitor look bad in the eyes of your prospect automatically makes yourself look better in your prospects eyes at the same time, it actually does something else.

It also appeals to the, "He's making to much money" mentality in people; so I don't want to give "them" my business. I've personally experienced this in my own business, I've gone into sub divisions and sold many home owners roof replacements due to hail damage. When I sold the deal I'd slam a sign in the yard! I can tell you for a fact that after so many signs all the other home owners I had not yet approached got turned off, because I was being "TOO" successful! I know because I've been told so.

So I have all these signs in people yards, guess who appears on the scene next? The success basher! He's the guy who goes around and bashes my name and reputation in order to get sales, and he gets them too.

Anyways I'm rambling about my business.

SOMETHING TO REMEMBER

People always remember negative over the positive. The "MASTERS" of split testing, "POLITICAL CAMPAIGNING" know this to be self evident! Yes they know that people do not like negative campaigning or advertising, but they remember it and that's the point!

If this had no basis in truth do you think Pepsi and Coke would spend multiple MILLIONS bashing each other? I'm willing to bet they are even mutually decided to market this way!

If the OP is against this type of advertising and sales pitching that is most definitely his prerogative. To place your moral requirement, expectations, or views on leaders in any industry to be leaders and teachers, and then point out that they are not doing it is also negativity and it makes you a hypocrite! Your whole letter is negative, and your bashing the basher's. That's so ironic it makes me laugh!

Business is WAR, everything and anything goes as long as the LAW is not broken. The law does not dictate moral behavior or beliefs, it dictates actions. For those who do not believe business is war that's fine, don't cry when you get crushed.

I'm new here and this probably won't get me any brownie points but I don't care I call it like I see it.

[Clement Yeung]

Originally Posted by RickGueli

My friend, I know what guru-bashing in copy is intended to do. And in the IM/MMO niche, this WOULD have been more effective some five years ago if it was done by ONE or TWO trail-blazers or stray marketers (aka "Rich Jerk"), but since, nearly EVERYONE and their brother is all "let's go Guru a'bashin to make sales!"

The industry as it is right now is filled more with "Me-Too"s than lone rebel-rousers. Sad. In a recent "Mass Control 2.0" video, Frank Kern made a gesture to this when he pointed out how Anthony Robbins' testimonial was great in giving (I think the term he used was "RESTORING") some legitimacy to the IM/MMO industry. I don't think that's co-incidence.

Rick

Yeah that was quite a powerful statement too!

I do agree with your topic of discussion Rick.

Just yesterday I was talking with my girlfriend and I was trying to make my point that I felt the IM industry had been crippled slightly by short-term, narrow-minded attempts at making it big, but I just couldn't put my finger on it.

I think that this email is one of the reasons I was trying to say the other day.

Clément

[RareGoodStuff]

I don't do 'Guru Bashing' in my sales copies, but sometimes the people who use such tactics may have a point or two.

For example, I had a GURU take money from a friend. This guru assigned an associate of his, to work with this friend.

The guru's associate contacted my friend once or twice within a month of my friend buying this guru's program. Within that month, that associate had a problem with the guru. They parted ways and left my friend without help.

For months my friend called the guru's office without success. Finally, my friend asked for the refund of the money as stipulated under their agreement. She was refused and never heard from them ever.

This GURU boast of making millions and yet cannot issue a refund of $1,200.00. Is it not fair to bash this GURU in this case?

Generally, I see some GURUS as less credible. Not all!

Yet, I admire some for what they have achieved.

[RickGueli]

If the OP is against this type of advertising and sales pitching that is most definitely his prerogative. To place your moral requirement, expectations, or views on leaders in any industry to be leaders and teachers, and then point out that they are not doing it is also negativity and it makes you a hypocrite! Your whole letter is negative, and your bashing the basher's. That's so ironic it makes me laugh!

You can laugh all you like, but you've missed the point of the post by so many gigameters over your head it's not funny. Where in my post am I even remotely implying that "negativity" in itself is inherently a "bad" thing? This, my friend, is called a straw-man argument: accusing someone of doing or saying something they are not and then using that against them.

Comparing the scenario of MANY IM/MMO-related product owners "guru bashing" to that of merely TWO mega-companies bashing each other is a little out of place. "Bashing the competition" might not have lost its effectiveness with Pepsi and Coca Cola yet, as they are just two companies, but it has certainly lost its effectiveness with the IM/MMO product-producing crowd as EVERYONE and their older sister is doing it. THAT is the point.

[RickGueli]

Originally Posted by RareGoodStuff

I don't do 'Guru Bashing' in my sales copies, but sometimes the people who use such tactics may have a point or two.

For example, I had a GURU take money from a friend. This guru assigned an associate of his, to work with this friend.

The guru's associate contacted my friend once or twice within a month of my friend buying this guru's program. Within that month, that associate had a problem with the guru. They parted ways and left my friend without help.

For months my friend called the guru's office without success. Finally, my friend asked for the refund of the money as stipulated under their agreement. She was refused and never heard from them ever.

This GURU boast of making millions and yet cannot issue a refund of $1,200.00. Is it not fair to bash this GURU in this case?

Generally, I see some GURUS as less credible. Not all!

Yet, I admire some for what they have achieved.

I am sorry to hear about your friend.

In no way am I saying "bashing" someone who deserves it inherently a "bad" thing. Not at all.

In the case of your friend, I think a guru like that DOES deserve to be brought out in the open and exposed for fraudulent and unprofessional behaviour.

And if THAT was the context behind some of the "guru bashing" that go on in some salesletters, then more power to the author. I can empathise. But in the vast majority of such cases, it's just a "Me too" complex that attempts to lend credibility to the product being sold (and failing).

Peace.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Well, sometimes it makes sense to point out a competitor and
say, " look at this product, it costs over $1000 and it has a
real flashy salespage... and it's made by an internet big-shot
who has a big list and so one

"What we are doing here is something that has, basically,
all the same how-to information, and more. We have to
admit that our box-shot isn't nearly so nice and we skipped
the $10,000 video infomercial running on the other site -
but that's because, like you, we are in-the-trenches
marketers and since we are testing this offer we aren't
gonna blow a huge wad of cash on eye-candy. Also
we would rather win you over as a customer, see you
succeed, and buy more from us later... so it's a win-win
for us and you too.

"We say look around. You could spend over $1000 on the
slick guru product - and you would get some bonuses we
don't offer actually - or you could keep $803.oo in your pocket
and get our from-the-trenches product and have plenty
of cash left over for advertising or other stuff you want
to buy."

... and so forth. Is that bashing? No, not really. That's saying
that the competitor has a nice product and your product delivers
the same or better value.

I tell people that they should learn from and study the big
cheese people but also realize that they not only have hidden
income streams, they have a lot of hidden costs too - so
they are worth studying but you have to be realistic about
how sophisticated their marketing really is.

[RickGueli]

Good call, Loren, that's more of an informed comparision that can be utilized in one's sales copy. Like you pointed out, it's not bashing, and actually a pretty good tactic that can be employed in one's sales processes. Heck, some Gurus do that to THEMSELVES ("Past clients paid $10,000 to go to my seminar, but now you can have all that seminar on DVDs for just $247"... or whatever).

Big difference between THAT and the me-too "rich jerks" floating around, haha

[jasondinner]

Originally Posted by kenetrix

It is how I built my list of 47,312 subscribers, and 90% of them have been on my list for over a year. Not a bad "stick rate".

-Ken

Just out of curiousity, how many of those 47K open your email.

And how many of them click on links when you include them in your messages?

Not really on topic, but would be interesting to see your numbers

If you don't want to make it public, PM me and I'll PM you mine back.

Jason

[Prevalent]

People develop their marketing persona for several reasons...

1) Every personality type is different...therefore sales tactics will be different.
2) Everyone's experience and motivations are different....therefore sales tactics will be different.
3) Most importantly....people do what they think works.

I'm not saying one way or another whether this "Guru Bashing" is effective....that is not the point you are making.

You are attempting to make a moral judgement about the sales tactics of others. You are pontificating about the sales letters of others as if you are in some position to do so.

If you want to make an argument about whether or not it is effective...I am all ears. But the OP is a about "restoring credibility" or some other nonsense. You say it is wrong....my question is "why?" and "according to whom?" and "who died and made you the marketing God?"

BTW - Could you please provide some examples of this terrible "Guru Bashing" you are so tired of? I wouldn't count seeing "...the Gurus will never tell you..." in a headline as "bashing" at all.

[RickGueli]

Originally Posted by Daniel McCoy

People develop their marketing persona for several reasons...

1) Every personality type is different...therefore sales tactics will be different.
2) Everyone's experience and motivations are different....therefore sales tactics will be different.
3) Most importantly....people do what they think works.

i see no such "difference" or variety in tactics that you speak of, except for the fact that those well-established in the IM game ("Gurus" in other words) don't resort to these tactics. Beyond that, EVERYONE else is on the "boogyman guru" bandwagon.

I'm not saying one way or another whether this "Guru Bashing" is effective....that is not the point you are making.

You are attempting to make a moral judgement about the sales tactics of others. You are pontificating about the sales letters of others as if you are in some position to do so.

If you want to make an argument about whether or not it is effective...I am all ears. But the OP is a about "restoring credibility" or some other nonsense. You say it is wrong....my question is "why?" and "according to whom?" and "who died and made you the marketing God?"

According to an OBSERVER of the IM/MMO salescape - and a customer for years - who is somewhat tired of the b.s. And for the record, the "nonesense" of "restoring legitimacy" to the industy is hardly my idea, if you have been paying attention to Frank Kern's recent Mass Control 2.0 videos (or even "The Jackal" last year, but whatever).

BTW - Could you please provide some examples of this terrible "Guru Bashing" you are so tired of? I wouldn't count seeing "...the Gurus will never tell you..." in a headline as "bashing" at all.

Actually it's not just the headlines. Often the entirety of the upper half section of a salesletter (aside from the bullets and testimonials from other IM marketers) is pretty much all about some grand guru-led conspiracy to keep people in the dark.

Anyhoo, feel free to dislike my "pontification" all you like. If it is because you are somehow threatened by my "moralising streak" (I didn't for a single second approach the issue from a "high horse" mindset) then I'm sorry, but I said what I felt needed to be said, and the "GREAT POST!" o "About time!" PMs I got for this thread seem to indicate I am not the only one who feels this way.

Peace.

[Rus Sells]

Originally Posted by RickGueli

You can laugh all you like, but you've missed the point of the post by so many gigameters over your head it's not funny. Where in my post am I even remotely implying that "negativity" in itself is inherently a "bad" thing? This, my friend, is called a straw-man argument: accusing someone of doing or saying something they are not and then using that against them.

Comparing the scenario of MANY IM/MMO-related product owners "guru bashing" to that of merely TWO mega-companies bashing each other is a little out of place. "Bashing the competition" might not have lost its effectiveness with Pepsi and Coca Cola yet, as they are just two companies, but it has certainly lost its effectiveness with the IM/MMO product-producing crowd as EVERYONE and their older sister is doing it. THAT is the point.

Actually, you have missed the point of my reply by tetrameters!

[Traffic101]

I don't like guru bashing either. But then again I don't like people selling garbage ebooks for $20-50 that offer info you can find for free on the net. People are going to do what they think works...and to bad for everyone else. It's up to us to find our own unique ways.

[tpw]

I don't bash anyone in my sales copy myself.

I try hard to avoid bashing anyone in my articles, but sometimes it has to be done.

I think the reason people do the bashing is because if you take a poll of consumers, far too many of them feel that most products offered simply don't live up to the hype. With so many programs getting less than idealistic ratings from the consuming public, you have to separate your product from what people are expecting your product to be. Otherwise, you run the risk of being perceived as another player trying to separate the consumer from his or her money.

This is not the approach I would want to take in my sales copy. But occasionally I feel the need to do such things in an article. When you see someone offering bad advice, you feel almost compelled to say something about it.

I have never in a public forum said anything bad about a competitor, and I never will.

But when you feel that there is bad advice being bandied about, you almost have a responsibility to point out the bad advice.