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| Rick Duris CopyRanger.com War Room Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Laguna Beach, CA
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Interesting new study on NLP power words: Persuade with Silky Smooth Copy | Neuromarketing - Rick Duris |
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| | #2 |
| Got fish? War Room Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: 311 miles south of the ranch
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Roger Dooley's book, Brainfluence, is also a pretty good reference for marketers and business owners. It contains many subtle and not-so-subtle techniques to change people's perceptions, attention, and actions. While some of these 100 recommendations could use further proof of effectiveness, others are techniques of obvious merit, such as the measurable value in responding quickly and sincerely to customer complaints. (A Harris survey showed 18% of those receiving timely responses to to bad online reviews became loyal customers, and nearly 70% reversed the negative content by deleting the negative review or posting a second positive one.) There is also a section on adjectives that work, which is useful to copywriters. Would you rather have just plain salmon or Wild Alaskan Salmon (cue images of strong, robust salmon swimming in pristine waters)? |
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| | #3 | |
| Godfather of Curation War Room Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boca Raton,FL , USA.
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| Quote:
Use sensation based words. That's new? What good copywriter ever didn't? That's Intro To NLP 101 | |
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Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D. Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com http://overnight-copy.com Get Fit In Four Minuteshttp://just4minutes.com Learn how to build a Super Site Without SEO http://supersiteformula.com | ||
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| | #4 | |
| Got fish? War Room Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: 311 miles south of the ranch
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The study presents fMRI-based evidence that textural metaphors (such as "rough") activated the texture-selective part of somatosensory cortex, or the part of the brain known as the parietal operculum. In other words, texture-based words activated areas of the brain associated with touch. Roger then posited that those kinds of terms might be more memorable and impactful, and went on from there. Perhaps it would be more informative to read the interview with one of the co-authors of the study, Krishnankutty Sathian, who is a professor of neurology, rehab medicine, and psychology. It is located at This Is Your Brain on Metaphor - IEEE Spectrum. So while using sensation-based words is not new, sometimes it's useful to study the science behind how and why they work. | |
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| | #5 |
| Rick Duris CopyRanger.com War Room Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Laguna Beach, CA
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Thanks, Steve for the link. I found the study truly fascinating. With the craft of copywriting changing as I write, personally I'm looking for ways to get more out of every word. - Rick Duris |
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| | #6 |
| Words Rule the World War Room Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: South Texas Coast
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Will someone please explain what NLP actually is? I mean, what do practitioners of NLP do that is not done by others? And please don't give me the modeling excellence line. People have been copying what works for the entirety of history. |
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| | #7 |
| The Reality Check War Room Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Cancun, Quintana Roo, MX
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You guys don't realize you're dealing with the self-proclaimed master of NLP copywriting You're not going to be able to teach him anything about NLP. I mean come on, this is a guy who wrote this page:Video « Beach Millions Warning: View at your own risk. Because of the author and his powers over the mind, you will have to use incredible will power to avoid buying the product when you watch. |
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| | #8 | |
| Banned War Room Member | Quote:
Linguistic - speech. Or in this case the written word as applied to copywriting in our case. Programming, as in programming sensory input into the subconscious mind. Turning off the conscious mind which raises the objection to allow the unconscious mind more freedom to influence positively any desired action needed on the part of the programmer. Certain words used in combination for example can spark off in the subconscious mind a fight or flight response mechanism. Using fear words will typically trigger either of the above responses even if the recipient isn't aware directly of what is happening to them. Used carefully you can manufacture the results you're looking for, for whatever set number of variables or outcomes you want based on different standard personality types. An experienced copywriter with a very good understanding of the target market can manipulate these sensory and/or chemical organs knowing full well a certain percentage of said audience will nearly always respond in a certain way from the programming or words chosen to elicit the response desired. An NLP expert is simply aware of how to press these buttons whilst for the most part most people aren't aware of the actual processes involved at a deeper level although to some extent, knowingly or otherwise, most if not all people do this to some extent or another. In a nutshell. At least, this is my personal take on it. I could go a lot deeper into this but I haven't the time for it right now. Mark Andrews | |
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| | #9 |
| Here for the Beer War Room Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Chicago burbs
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Ah, it works but the subject is unaware that it works and there's no objective proof that it works. I like it. |
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| | #10 |
| HyperActive Warrior Join Date: Jan 2012
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| | #11 | |
| Got fish? War Room Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: 311 miles south of the ranch
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Given the professional controversy around the subject of NLP, any science to help back it up would seem to be a good thing. See Neuro-linguistic programming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for a quite a bit more information about NLP. Keep in mind that it may be biased by the author(s) of the Wikipedia entry, and it may or may not be accurate. In any case, we're not trying to be NLP specialists (and apparently there is quite a bit involved with doing that the right way, especially for psychiatric practice). Perhaps a better term for copywriters would be persuasive copywriting, which includes some lessons from NLP, as well as resources such as Cashvertising, Brain Audit, and other layman references. Some copywriters (such as Jennie Heckel) say applying NLP principles in their copy works well, so it could be a useful tool for those that want to take the time to study it. | |
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| | #12 | ||
| The Reality Check War Room Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Cancun, Quintana Roo, MX
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Quote:
Look... create movies in the prospects mind, lead them to their own conclusions, which "magically" align with your desires. You don't need to study NLP to do this, but you do need to practice. Ok, back to the beach | ||
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| | #13 | ||
| Got fish? War Room Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: 311 miles south of the ranch
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The real question is whether it provides results for her particular niche and customers, and since she is currently #2 on Elance for copywriting, it appears that it does (on Elance at least, in combination with all of the other factors that go into a successful business such as pricing, reliability, accessibility, networking, personality, etc. etc.). Jennie did say once that she saw a significant, measurable difference in copy conversions after applying the principles of NLP to her copywriting, but without specifics, it's hard to tell exactly how much it helped, or see her before and after examples of it used in marketing copy. Quote:
One useful exercise in particular was how to develop a story (with setting, props, and characters) forward and backward from a specific scene as seen in the mind's eye. It's very useful when a particular scene is desired and there is a need to develop the surrounding story. When combined with copywriting knowledge, specific desired outcomes, classic story outlines such as the Hero's Journey, persuasive copywriting, and practice, that's a pretty potent blend. | ||
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| | #14 |
| Rockstar Copywriter Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: SF Bay Area, CA
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| Love this. Back when I was studying screenwriting, I had a professor that taught similar methods, but I doubt she thought of it as NLP. She encouraged us to avoid adjectives when possible and opt for descriptive action words instead. He shuffled instead of walking slowly. She chortled instead of laughing derisively. They collapsed instead of falling down. When I describe things, I try to stick to that wisdom - it's easy to cut down unnecessary words when you vary descriptions and don't rely on adjectives all the time. I promise that random ramble was tangentially related. It's the descriptions that make copywriting fun for me - finding different ways to say the same things we've all heard. Creativity, folks! Thanks for sharing, Rick! |
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Big changes coming soon...
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| | #15 | |
| HyperActive Warrior Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Down heed by the raging river.
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It's Harlan Livingston Seagull. | |
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| | #16 |
| Advanced Warrior Join Date: Jun 2011
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| | #17 |
| HyperActive Warrior Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Down heed by the raging river.
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| Maxie ... shhhhhhh!!!!!!!! Hold it down! The thought police are right next door dismantling another post that runs counter to the Fatherland's sense of propriety. You don't want to get us sent to the camps, do you? Now pass that nose cleaner, would 'ya? |
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| | #18 | |
| Advanced Warrior Join Date: Jun 2011
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Are those camps any fun? | |
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| | #19 |
| HyperActive Warrior Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Down heed by the raging river.
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Actually they're quite painful. They torture you 24/7 with recordings of beach sounds until you promise to donate all your money to Greenpeace. But you do get all the "boat drinks" you want. You know, like the one with the multi-colored parasol Harlan sports in his "Beach Millions" video. |
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| | #20 | |
| Advanced Warrior Join Date: Jun 2011
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Not sure what was with the umbrella drink...must be an NLP thing. Don't get me started Doceye...I'll whip out my umbrella drink and try to hypnotize you into buying my latest course on making $2 dollars while you sleep by using websites... | |
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| | #21 |
| Zen Redneck War Room Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Erie, PA
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Now, now ladies. Behave, please.
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| What do thousands of Warriors have in common? They read this! Last edited by Paul Myers; 05-24-2012 at 08:56 PM. Reason: Corrected typo. There is no 'e' in 'now.' | |
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| | #22 |
| HyperActive Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Iowa City, IA, USA.
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NLP often gets confused with hypnosis. NLP is a method to MODEL a certain behavior. So NLP in copywriting would be to study a great copywriter and figure out how they make their decisions for writing headlines/hooks, laying out the letter, focusing on hot buttons, positioning the offer, etc. The refinement is not what they tell you... that's not a model. You have to know how to figure out what they do even if they themselves aren't aware at it. You have to figure out how to elicit their strategies - that's where it's important to know NLP. So if you asked a copywriter - "How do you know when you have a great headline" and they answer - "It just pops out at me then I start humming along and next thing I know I'm in the groove and the copy is done!" Their internal process is Visual (pops out) Audio (humming) Audio (groove). More important is if I ask them to describe to me what they see, hear and feel internally when they are in the "copywriting zone". If almost every copywriter who gets in the zone sees moving images, close and larger than life with vivid bright colors... guess what? I'm going to start visualizing moving images of me writing world class copy with vivid colors In my opinion, one of the great contributions from NLP was the "phobia cure" invented by Bandler. He discovered how to cure almost any phobia using in less than 5 minutes. How'd he do it? He took an ad out in the paper asking for people who had phobias and got rid of them to call him - and he interviewed them. What he discovered was a pattern - people "seeing themselves" from afar just doing what they were afraid of, and "looking back" at all the times they struggled with their phobia. So he then took that and made a model: Understanding NLP's Fast Phobia Cure And now almost anybody who understands it and practices can do well with phobias. That's how Tony Robbins first got big |
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| | #24 |
| Got fish? War Room Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: 311 miles south of the ranch
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And how in the world does someone get a phobia about...baked beans? But it was an interesting article.
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| | #25 | |
| Marxist (Groucho) War Room Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle, WA, USA.
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| | #26 |
| HyperActive Warrior Join Date: Apr 2011
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Use all copywriting resources that make your copy read more smoothly so that readers move down your copy like going down a slide. Excellent resources include Richard Bayan's Words That Sell and Joe Vitale's Hypnotic Writing Swipe File.
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| | #27 |
| Active Warrior Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: just inside M25 near london uk
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| | #28 |
| Adrian In't Veldt War Room Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Burlington, Ontario (Canada)
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Saggsee, I believe Bruce was quoting Jennie Heckel during the portion you're asking about. I wouldn't hold him accountable for any bitter taste reading that may have left in your mouth. :-P
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| | #29 |
| Active Warrior Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: just inside M25 near london uk
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No bitter taste at all. I am asking as a way of how to promote oneself. I have no "proven record" so any advice would be most welcome. I have posted a new thread on the subject but looks tacky lol....but attention grabbing. I am a trained NLP Practitioner and have just recently read a book on Web Copy that being "Web Copy That Sells" Great read and I am quite geared up to start this form of writing but like many newcomers just need a pointer in where to start.....Fiverr is not my way but if needs be??? Thanks...
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| | #30 |
| HyperActive Warrior Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Down heed by the raging river.
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| | #31 | |
| The Reality Check War Room Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Cancun, Quintana Roo, MX
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How I got my first paying job is a funny story. The client I was writing for figured out I was the one writing his letter after I opted into his list to research his product. He dug around, found my website and put it all together. So he contacted me and just hired me directly at a lower fee than he was paying the guy I was writing for. Naturally, I got my "employer" to agree to this before I accepted the job. The letter was a huge success and he referred many friends to me. My career was launched. | |
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| | #32 |
| Active Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: San Jose, CA
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When did this become the critique Jenny Heckel forum?
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| | #33 | |
| Words Rule the World War Room Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: South Texas Coast
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While he certainly knows the technical aspects of what he does very well and can tell you about them, his sensory thought process is probably not something he has ever considered. Even if it's useful to know, there's little chance you are getting his actual sensory process. What he will give you is a mental reconstruction of what he thinks is his process. At best it will be like looking of a fourth generation photocopy of an image that was fuzzy to begin with. You could try to observe him and ask your questions while he is writing copy, but this act of observing his process alters his process. In any case, what you end up with is a sequence of sensory observations. What good are they? You've ignored everything he told you about structure, persuasion, word choice, how to construct an offer, how to research a niche...the list goes on and on. Go find two people who have never written copy. Give one a transcript of Mr. Supercopy's answers. Teach the other how to make movies in his head based on the supposed sensory processes revealed by those answers. Now give them a writing assignment and see where efficacy resides. Seems like NLP is closer to phrenology than to neuroscience. | |
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| | #34 | |
| Got fish? War Room Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: 311 miles south of the ranch
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It sounds like Jason saw this page: The Art of NLP And Copy and assumed that is what NLP was. It isn't. I'm not going to pretend to know a lot about NLP, because I don't. But I have studied it a bit, all the way back to the original interviews of Milton Erickson in Gregory Bateson's communications project in the late 50's-early 60's. In my understanding (Harlan can correct us if otherwise), NLP is primarily a psychiatric approach. There are many variations on the techniques, and many of them rely on physical proximity for intonation, reaction, etc., and as such, are of limited use in copywriting. However, some techniques do seem to work well on a subconscious level regardless of proximity, and those are the ones of interest to copywriters. There is some science behind it, such as the study recently mentioned showing brain activity with texture-based terms (such as "rough"). There is also a lot of anecdotal (but not scientifically proven) evidence of effectiveness. From what I can tell so far, it seems that only a small portion of the entire NLP-based curriculum is useful in copywriting. As such, it's just one small additional set of tools in the copywriter's toolbox. It's worth studying to gain an extra edge in your copy, but it's not a magic solution. It won't turn readers into walking zombies, and as a subtle method, it is hard to use effectively and transparently. As applied to copywriting, it's another application of persuasive copywriting, which of course has a long history dating back to well before NLP. If in doubt, skip the hype, and do the research. For those looking for an edge, it's useful, but it's not an easy technique to master, IMO. | |
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| | #35 |
| Ready To Learn! Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Just Outside of Phoenix
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| | #36 |
| European Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Germany
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Bruce Wedding I do not know you but I love your comments. The Warning was best. I do International Business negotiations and believe me copywriting is different in many countries. The Germans are exact in spelling and use Little emotion, the French, Spanish, Italians and Portuguese use alot of emotion and spelling is secondary. The Russians can't spell and Love to tell looong stories. It changes from country to country. And NLP will work in the US but internationally I am not so sure. I Love reading peoples ideas and having a laugh... And I mean ist in a good way. People can be so pleasent and funny while still providing quality useful information. Love it. Thanks all and especially Bruce. You make me smile. :-) |
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| | #37 |
| Profit Producing Copy War Room Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Madison, WI
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There is so much to NLP that it is easily misunderstood and distorted, even by people who think they know what it is. You really can't make an evaluation on it until you have experienced it first hand. Not by talking about it or reading a book about it. But by interacting with others, in person, using it. I have been to many NLP trainings, including Richard BAndler, who many credit as inventing it. I'm a certified NLP trainer. Went through about 6 weeks of training 10 hours a day. The only word that describes my experience is transformational. That is, I was a completely different person after. Everything I did, I did better after that, including copywriting. It helps you sync up your conscious and unconscious thought processes. It helps you quantify every tool of communication. Yes, there is overlap between NLP and hypnosis. Much of my NLP training worked on Milton Erickson's language patterns. Unfortunately, NLP has gotten a bad rap as being manipulative. And many business people who got into it, did so to try to get "control" over other people. What it is, IMHO is one of the strongest tools for self-improvement available today. And that includes improving your copywriting skills. |
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| | #38 |
| Active Warrior Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: just inside M25 near london uk
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As a quick add on note to Ken's excellent words above regarding NLP getting a bad report at the moment I can confirm that when I have mentioned my NLP Practitioner level to some people I am met with faces that seem horrified. What I think IMHO is that in copy writing and selling for that matter NLP techniques have been used since business begun but only now are we beginning to acknowledge that certain words induce certain reactions. People will never buy/subscribe/call unless they are happy to do so, no matter what words we use for copy. |
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| | #39 |
| Profit Producing Copy War Room Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Madison, WI
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One other thing I'll add. People sometimes forget that the words alone are only 7% of the communication. So as a copywriter that leaves out 93% of the communication. Most of the value of NLP comes from tonality, emotional state management, and body language. Outside of the words, there are strategies that can be applied too, such as future pacing, etc. |
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| | #40 |
| HyperActive Warrior Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Down heed by the raging river.
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| Okay, I'm going to bite, Ken ... how in blue blazes are words only 7% of written communication? And what comprises the other 93% copywriters are leaving out? I'm hoping you simply misstated your position. Because as written your comments strike me as utterly absurd. Further, how in the heck is body language going to affect the words you write. Do you send a picture of yourself dangling from the rafters like a monkey when you write in a playful tone? Man ... you NLPers are confusing the heck out of me; I fear I'm not alone either. |
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| | #41 | ||
| HyperActive Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Iowa City, IA, USA.
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In the NLP co-founders words themselves: "if effective patterns of behaviour of exceptional people could be modeled then these patterns could be acquired by others." That's the whole premise on which they built NLP. Quote:
The problem is most people are not qualified enough with NLP to use it as a tool for self improvement (much less to help others). The sensory language is one of the easiest cues on what's going on at an unconscious level. Most people simple can't explain or don't even really know how they do what they do. They can tell you what they THINK they are doing... but in reality it's usually not what they actually are doing. FINALLY, the reason why people get hypnosis and NLP mixed up all the time is that Bandler and Grinder got famous because they "modeled" the language patterns of Milton Erickson, who was the father of modern hypnosis and a lot of their "quick change" techniques came from that. But notice: NLP is modeling a behavior... it's NOT hypnosis. Hypnotic language patterns can be effective in copy when used right. Modeling a great copywriter through the use of NLP is something completely different though. With all that said, I mainly use NLP to get me in a mindstate that helps sharpen my focus. As far as the writing of the copy itself goes - little importance is placed on hypnotic patterns, nested or open loops, anchoring or any other common NLP or hypnotic method. Instead, I just be selective and only write copy for really, really incredible offers... which is more important than word choice, pacing, and flow combined. | ||
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| | #42 |
| HyperActive Warrior War Room Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The mind of a prospect
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Forget NLP. What you want is to CAPTIVATE. What you want is to CONNECT. And above all... What you want is CLARITY. Focus on these things and you can drop prospects to their knees, begging you to take their cash. Day after day after... well, you get it right? Isn’t it FUN to do... have customers shove money in your account night and day? CUSTOMERS get better lives. YOU get a big house, fancy cars, amazing vacations (whatever your heart desires)... bam, bam, BAM! Write. Get cash. What’s not to like? Forget NLP. You don’t want to touch that stuff... |
| Scary good... | |
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