How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Something I've been thinking about lately...

What does it take to become one of the best (of the best)?

There are courses and books that teach copywriting, but nothing out there that shows you how to learn copywriting.

You pick up some tips here and there like... How Gary Halbert taught you should write ads up by hand.

I'm just wondering about all that a world class copywriter had to go through to get to where he is.

There are a lot of great copywriters, but it seems like there are a handful that are truly above the rest... The Jimi Hendrixes of copywriting.

How do you think they got there? They're obviously more disciplined and motivated to achieve that level of skill.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

To be the best I think it requires the most practice and dedication, and some luck. :)

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Suffer from coitus interuptus when a great hook or headline or bullet point
flashes into the mind, and write it down...right then.

That's how you tell if you've got the right stuff.

Best,
Ewen

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Well I became the best because I practiced a lot. If you have anymore questions feel free to ask me.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

I don't think anyone would argue that understanding salesmanship and psychology are prerequisite to becoming a good copywriter, but that alone won't get you into the pantheon.

Something that's been kicking around in my head for a while - Literary critic Harold Bloom has a theory he calls Anxiety of Influence about what makes great poets great.

Poets may seem a strange analog for copywriters, but I think it might apply. Both use words in structured ways to achieve maximum emotional impact.

Bloom proposes that most poets (and copywriters, perhaps) will read the greats that came before them and then emulate them both consciously and unconsciously, creating works that are derivative.

But there are a few strong poets (and copywriters, perhaps) who become troubled by this influence and deliberately break from their precursors in major ways.

In copywriting those breaks might be in how headlines are written, how bullet points are constructed, how the offer is formed, the voice he writes in, etc.

If these breaks with the past are effective, they get emulated and the copywriter who created them dwells among the copygods.

So, what do you think? Is there any THERE there?

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Just like anything else; practice!

I remember reading once, that to become an expert or a master at something/anything, requires 10,000 hours of effort and productive practice.

So all we got to do is practice for 10,000 hours ! :) I know this sounds stupid, but to be honest in this business we are practicing everyday. It's a churning model, that eventually pays off.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Try to be more best, with dedication & practice!!

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

10,000 hours.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

That's about 8 hours a day for 4 years... Or 4 hours a day for 8 years... Or 2 hours a day for 16 years.

Now THAT'S some discipline.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Wytnt is dead on. No matter what you hear anywhere, you get to be the best by outworking everyone else.

There is no shortcut.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

How big of a part do you think natural ability plays?

Like... do you think you can become GREAT without natural ability and only by practice alone?

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

nope. Gotta have talent to start with. Can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. :)

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Nice :) I mean... a 7 foot black guy from LA is more likely to make it to the NBA than the 5'8 kid from the prep school down the road who thinks he's good.

OK so what would you say that type of natural talent is copy-wise?

I've always thought it was sort of the ability to make someone else feel very emotional.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

I think you need to be paying attention while others are just treading water. Even things so subtle as watching a kid at the mall coerce his parents into buying him something is important. Noticing how a group (could be members of a small home owners association or the majority of the citizens of a country) reacts to a new rule or an opportunity, something pleasant or not so pleasant. All of this goes into a mental file cabinet.

This isn't stuff you can sit down and study from a book. And it's often not stuff you're consciously aware of either, at least not for a while. You discover you have it one day because it just sort of translates to the page. You look at it and say, "Where the hell did that nugget come from?" That's when you realize you've got the makings of a real writer.

The natural talent all writers (not just copywriters) have stems from this intrinsic ability to grok human behavior and then use that wisdom to get a desired result. But it goes further.

Once you recognize the interesting things people do and how they respond in certain situations you've got to get it on paper in such a way that other people easily understand it. In my experience, people either have this or they don't. It's not something that can be easily learned or taught, even by people who have it.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

In my opinion the only way to the top is through mentoring.

No matter how many books you've read, no matter how many courses you've taken, until an A-lister rips apart your copy and gives you word by word feedback, you'll only be a good copywriter in your dreams.

Carl Galletti used to go through my copy and make me justify every single word.

John Carlton made me eliminate the word "that" from my writing. I still get phobias thinking about it.

David Garfinkle taught me about emotional intensity and duration in writing.

Brian Keith Voiles taught me about simplicity and offer, offer, offer.

Gary Halbert taught me how to make proof seem simple and obvious.

And Jay Abraham taught me how to make the boldest claims twice as bold.

Want to be a great copywriter? Get a great mentor.

And I paid for most of these guys tens of thousands of dollars plus their courses.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

I would say the best are the best because they practiced. If it's a success take some time to study what worked, if its a failure take some time to study what didn't. Write more copy... just a long road of constantly writing and improving

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Practice makes a man perfect :)

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

“I’ve never really viewed myself as particularly talented. I view myself slightly above talent. Where I excel is ridiculous, sickening work ethic. While the other guy is sleeping, I’m working. While the other guy is eating, I’m working. While the other guy is making love, well, I’m making love too. But I’m working really hard at it.” - Will Smith

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

I would agree with Vin about having some talent to begin with...

And with Harlan about mentoring...

And the part about practice, practice, practice...

But, first you need to learn the basics - the rules - before you can do any of those.

And the way to do that is to study the masters.

No one can practice something if they don't know what it is they need to practice.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Passion.

Mark

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

I'm not even a novice at copywriting, but follow Dan Kennedy a lot (not for copywriting initially, but for general marketing practices).

DK is the reason I have even started looking at copywriting. In a speech on what it takes to be successful, in general, he brought up a copywriting example. He may have been referencing Halbert, by saying someone once told him write out a sales letter by hand. He wrote it out 50 times. That's the type of dedication you need to be successful at anything. You take 1000 jump shots after practice. Catch passes from your QB after practice ends, etc. etc.

And of course, test everything.

You definitely need passion to do that as Mark says. Definite of purpose, positive mental attitude (to channel Napoleon Hill)

What one of the best did to get to the top?
 

Or was. I met Gary Halbert when he was a Wannabee Marketer. He actually wanted to sell things by Mail Order. A guy I worked for was one of his mentors.

So, what did one of the Greatest Copywriters do? What did he go through BEFORE he hit the home run with the famous Nancy letter?

Yes, he had passion, plenty of it. Desire. Hopes. Dreams.
Yes he practiced and practiced.
And yes, contrary to some opinions he was a dedicated Student of Salesmanship and the Masters. Although in later years and some of you youngsters believe his press...that he INVENTED copywriting (Ha, but there are elements used today I believe he did invent)...

Sitting in a bar in Barberton, OH, Gary told me he was pursuing ONE thing.

The ONE thing he wanted, the one thing he obsessed about, the one thing he was working on/for/toward...

RESULTS.

And he went a few years and his results were FAILURE.

Culminated with his infamous FAT ad on radio. Funniest ad ever, Akron radio talked about it for days and days, got a lot of FREE play...

and not a single sale. Not even an inquiry.

So, he went back to the drawing board. Again. Again and Again.

In golf, I teach a HIT the BALL method, the ball gives you the feedback you need to make corrections on the delivery of the club head at the moment of impact.

Likewise, Gary RAN THE ADS. He wrote the copy. Then he analyzed the

RESULTS.

The results gave him the adjustments he had to make. Add perseverance, and a desire to prove to himself (and his skeptics, he had more than a few)...and he spent his own money too.

Then when he got the first POSITIVE results, he wanted to find bigger, better, more of the same...RESULTS.

And once he got them, he parlayed his talent, which was immense, into one of the most successful copywriters/marketers in history.

So, in my opinion, all of you are right...but you have to look at what an A list guy did in the beginning. And if there is a single answer to be found in Halbert's early years....

He NEVER quit.

He NEVER QUIT. Never quit writing and looking at the results of his writing.

Gary didn't care (eventually) what his critics said about his promotions, he let the RESULTS tell him if he was on the right track.

I'd have to say, YES, indeed, he was.

gjabiz

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

For those who mentor, how would you prioritize these skills (or additional skills) when considering a potential mentee?

Writing ability
Sales ability
Psychological understanding
Work ethic

Thanks,
Deb

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

While there is certainly a natural talent factor, and some people take to things like this more quickly, I think the level of innate talent needed for something like this is often overstated. I think more often than not, the idea that "I don't have the talent for this" is used as an excuse for people who give up before developing their skill.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

I look for two things:

1. Desire to bring a product or service to the marketplace
2. Ability to communicate a thought in writing

The rest can be learned.

Alex

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Jason,

Based on what I look for in a mentee... it's all about being compelling. That may be because you tap into my emotions... or it may be because you keep me engaged in your writing. It's different for each one.

I've had very successful students who come from journalism backgrounds and know how to deliver the "W's" in a compelling way... And others who, like me are good story-tellers.

And one of my best student's ever, keeps me glued because he knows how to wow me with research.

Give me a student who keeps me reading and I can show him (or her) how to make a ton of money for their clients.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Good question:

1. Work ethic
2. Writing Ability
2. Sales ability
2. Psychological understanding

How's that? ;)

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't teach you how to write faster or easier. I teach how to work harder for your clients.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

None of the above.

DESIRE

All the rest can be taught.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Try till you succeed. Pursue until you achieve. Before you give up, ask yourself a question - Why did I held up till now..? Try, try and try. Be curious, because curiosity makes man perfect and takes to the top of success...

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

The zen of seeing.


Mark Andrews

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

The greatest copywriters understand that they're constantly learning, it's the same with most professions.. you become the best by studying the best and practicing to become the best, they never cease on honing their craft.

Even after Hasnat Khan became the most respected heart surgeon in the UK and boinked Princess Diana for a couple of years, he still has to keep up with all aspects of cardiac treatment and surgeries. If he doesn't, he'll be overtaken by the next ambitious heart surgeon who studied, practiced and applied his learning harder than he did.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

I vote for work ethic. I like that Gatorade commercial with Redskins Quarterback Robert Griffin III:

Greatness is not given. Greatness is taken. Taken in the summer. When no one is looking.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Nice Joe...

I think this "Famous Failures" commercial really sums up what you got to do in order to succeed...



Basically, having enough passion and desire to keep going, even after hitting rock bottom.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Get a great mentor. Follow the best, I don't think its luck I think its having a vision of the end in mind of who you want to become and taking massive action to become that person

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Practice, lots of practice.
10,000 hours might do it, but then again it might not.
If you don't have a gig, make one up, practice on it, get critiqued by someone further up the ladder (the higher the better).

What if - The secret to success is failure ;)

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Eliminate the word as an abstract pronoun(ie "You can do better than that") or eliminate it altogether, even as a definite article(ie "I really enjoyed that comparison")?

Shoot, now I'm going to worry about putting the word 'that' in my copy and I doubt I've ever even done so.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

I'm all for hard work and practice. These drive home success in all areas of life.

Here's something I noticed over the years though.

It's not just about the practice. Eric Clapton nearly gave up music after watching Jimi Hendrix play live. Trashed his guitar to smithereens and swore he'd never play a lick ever again.

Today he's a guitar and music legend.

I've watched people without natural talent try to learn something new. They try and try over and over. It seems hopeless and endless.

But watching and listening in...you can see what's really missing.

Those who already know what they are doing "get it".

You see...the repetition doesn't drive your success.

Repetition is just continual exposure to something. I once spent a weekend in the wilderness with an Apache tracker. After several days I could finally hear what the birds were saying.

Practice doesn't give you skills. Enhancing your awareness does.

With enough exposure you're eyes, ears and mind open with deeper clarity. Your senses can dance where before they could only walk.

Suddenly you understand what you were missing. It's the big "aha"s. It's an amazing feeling to see someone go from lost to "I totally get it"

You have a brain, arms and legs. You're no different then any other person out there. From a janitor to Mozart. what makes you different is what's going on in your heart and mind.

Eric Clapton went on to become a legend just like Hendrix. Took him years but he got there. Desire, hard work and practice. And listening to endless hours of blues legends for years on end copying their music.

Hendrix was different though. Not that different mind you. From the soul music at church to the blues played around at home...Hendrix's mind "clicked" much earlier than most. Hit the sweetspot of awareness most spend lifetimes to attain. Combined with picking up a guitar before most kids could multiply and you'll see why Jimi is still considered one of the greats.

This is genius. To notice, refine and apply. Then rinse and repeat.

The better you notice and refine, the faster you grow.

I believe we all have genius...it's just a matter of catching what you didn't see before.

Ever hang out with someone who had an accent? Ever notice how after weeks you start to pick it up and accidently talk like they do without even trying?

There is something to be said about consistent exposure to something.

Spend time reading and writing successful sales letters. Take notes on what you notice. And then apply it. Practice noticing more and more.

Going over the same sales letter will do this to you too. I believe doug D'Anna went over one of Bencivenga sales letters every night for a year before going to bed. he also wrote 12 hours a day for a year too. Passive exposure to something doesn't breed skill or talent. Just helps you attune yourself mind and senses to something.

I recommend a mentor bigtime. Experienced eyes cut the learning time by decades sometimes.

I have a martial arts instructor who taught me this ingenius grappling defense. I said "Man! I wish I'd known this years ago! Would have saved me from years of struggle". He said "that's ok....it only took me 12 years to figure out"

Not all mentors are created equal. Just cause someone's a superstar doesn't mean they know how to transfer knowledge to you. Some of the best athletic coaches in the world weren't famous pro athletes.

I believe most of the advice you see above is spot on. Just avoid being a robot. Notice what's hiding behind the surface.

Techniques and books can only take you so far. Get in tune with what you're doing. It's like noticing your heartbeat. It's there...you just need to quiet your mind and body to feel it.

My two cents

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

I don’t think you have to be born with anything. In fact, science is beginning to show that our modern conception of genes are not as accurate as we once though. We can physically change our DNA through the power of the mind.

I know of a guy who once upon a time started out as a rapper from West Philly; some kind of prince or something. When he first started acting, he was pretty poor, even miming the actors words as he was on stage. Surely this kid didn’t really have a natural ability to act if he was making noob mistakes like miming other actors words on screen? Sure enough; he’s gone on to become one of the greatest of our time.

My point is, practice really does make perfect; as well as the positive mentality and confidence to say to yourself “I can do this.”.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Here's a few observations.

It's a common mantra that if you work hard enough, "you can do or be anything." This "bootstrap mentality" surmises that natural ability is not a predetermining factor for success in athletics, business, musical aptitude, or writing (for example). That anyone can be Michael Jordan, Bill Gates, or Sean Combs if they just work at it every day.

Write for 12 hours a day. Study until 3 AM every night. Play piano til your fingers cramp and curl. Shoot jump shots at the park after the lights click off and all the chumps are snug in their beds...

Filtering out the obvious barriers - poor little Eugene will never break through a defensive line of 7 year olds, and we all know sweet Mrs Appleton in the church choir will never find a pitch with a map - and the consensus seems to be hard work and practice can get you anywhere...

But what does it take to be the best? Aside from practice and being physically capable of performing at that level? If you take two people, all things being equal, and put them to work for 5 years, what are the factors that separate the solid and respectable from the wildly successful - the best? I bet you'd find a few things out about the "best" people...

A disregard for rules. The best work from their own playbook. And that means bucking conventional ideas and trends, and it means occasionally breaking some rules.

Don't tell me to stay in this box if I know that stepping out of it is necessary to setting a new standard. Regardless of consequence, the best understand that rules sometimes have to be set aside to achieve real innovation.

A tolerance for risk. What are the consequences of going all in? Do I lose everything? Is that risk worth taking to become the best?

Often it's not as monumental as "putting everything on the line," but the smaller risks - that a smaller percentage are willing to take - can offer up unexpected chance and opportunity.

Takes advantage of opportunity. We've all heard the old chestnut that problems are opportunities in disguise. Yet still, most people think that problems are just problems. And the "best" figure out ways to explore the opportunities that are often hidden.

On the other hand, opportunity reaches out and smacks some in the face, but they still won't exploit it. "Things are going just fine the way they are now." But the best know that "right now" isn't "just fine," and they are going to take those opportunities and break new ground.

Good is the enemy of Great. They understand that the greatest threat of mediocrity is the idea that their work is "good." Breaking news: Everything's "Good." Opportunity doesn't go around knocking on the doors of "good." And even if the rest of the world thinks it's "good," the best understand it can't just be "better" - Its got to be Great.

Willingness to test social and familial tolerance. Pretty simple. Most of us don't want to work 18 hours a day. We don't want to miss Connor's baseball game or Isabella's dance recital. The husband or wife is bitching about the hours we put in and we have a 10 AM tee time.

This is what is most pivotal in separating the "best" from "the rest." Because the best don't care. There is a single driving need in their wiring that puts these bonds to the test. Many times they fail at marriage. Their kids might resent them. Their coworkers don't like them. They either don't notice, or don't care.


So if you have a stomach for all that, you will probably be among the best.

But we're talking about the BEST of the best here. We all know people like I described in the above paragraphs. But what separates the very best of the best from all the other fools who've practiced, risked everything, and took advantage of every opportunity in their path?

I'll say it - The BEST of the best are truly touched by a sort of greatness and insanity. They may not be the strongest. The smartest. The prettiest. But if you spend any time around someone who is truly the greatest at what they do - and is widely recognized for doing so - you'd understand that there's a touch of madness and a little bit of something else that the rest of us just don't have.

A light in the eye, a rhythm in their thought...And they are possessed by it to the extent that it controls every unconscious thought in their heads. I'm talking about the Michael Jordans and the Steve Jobses and the Stephen Hawkings and yes, even the Eric Claptons of the world. They don't live in our world, and there's nothing they (or anyone else) can do about it.

Maybe I'M crazy for spending the time to write this :D, but I've had the opportunity to be around some people that have truly made it to the top in their field, and I've seen that same energy in each of them.

Anyway, I believe the original post was about copywriting, so I guess you could apply all of the above to this line of work as well.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

There is obviously a need for the word, or it wouldn't exist.

The problem is that most people use 'that' for no real reason. It simply doesn't need to be there.

And a lot of times - I see this too many times - people use 'that' where they should be saying something like 'which' or 'who'.

It's simply used in the wrong places.

See my second sentence, above? I could change it and still say the same thing...

"The problem is that most people use 'that' for no real reason."
"The problem is most people use 'that' for no real reason."

If it was just an ordinary essay, the first would be okay. In copywriting, in my opinion, the second is better.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

A few people mention mentoring. I have one thing to say...

Make sure you get a good one. And that means an honest one.

I paid thousands to someone who is very prominent on the scene. Most because he markets himself quite well.

One thing I didn't know at the time is that he was always putting other marketers and copywriters down as 'snake oil salesmen' - still is.

Watch out for those. Because they're the kind of people who put others down to make themselves look good. In fact they're the real snake oil salesmen.

I lost a good gew thousand on that guy.

He was a good talker and I paid the cash. But he didn't deliver.

If I had to do it now, I would put my money on one of the guys Harlan has listed above.

I notice he hasn't mentioned Vin Montello. I haven't mentored with him, but a few good guys have mentioned how good he is.

And that's good enough for me.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

I haven't seen anyone mention the single most important prerequisite IMO:

Being able to CHECK YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR.

Defending defeats discovery.

Good thread, gang.

B

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

I think that can be tricky because...

I find that it's really common that a copywriter doesn't understand what the reader of the ad should be experiencing when reading your ad.

(I'm not saying I'm a master of this myself but I know a little about what they should be experiencing).

And once you know that, the whole way you write can change.

I took creating writing classes in college and used to write a lot of short stories and poetry.

Once I knew that those talents can be transferred over to copywriting, I think it opened up my writing a little.

I thought about what was it about my writing that made my short stories interesting and hooked the readers in. (Garfinkel really helped me understand the connection between this... not personally, but from his materials).

Then I thought about how I'm a pretty good listener and one-on-one type guy.

I'm not great in crowds, but I know how to talk to people personally about issues they're having and what not... and I figured out I naturally pace people in a one-on-one setting.

So that kind of translated over to empathetic passages in my ads.

But I wouldn't have known to use those things to write in a compelling way if I didn't understand at least a little about what the reader of the ad should be experiencing.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Aaah, but Jason, I was saying what I look for in a mentee, not what I was looking for in a great copywriter! Being compelling alone will not get the job done. But... that's what I'm looking for in someone I can mold and turn into a real copywriter.

To me, if you can write in a compelling way, the rest of it can be taught. But... if you know the persuasion... and understand the emotions... but can't keep a viewer watching, or a reader reading... it's all for nothing.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Lots of answers here. They're all over the place. I don't think anyone has questioned the definition of the word best. What does that mean? Is it measured in sales? Popularity? Years spent in the craft? Skill? All of these things are relative. What does best mean?

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

Good post. Yet, it can also be misleading.

Allow me to explain...

I've seen this in many areas of life...

Quote:

A disregard for rules.

You can only buck trends when they know what the trends are. You can't break rules if you have no idea what those rules are. And you certainly can't improve on something if you have no idea what that 'something' is.

You can only buck trends when they know what the trends are. You can't break rules if you have no idea what those rules are. And you certainly can't improve on something if you have no idea what that 'something' is.

I took many risks. And lost a bundle as a result.

The reason?

I took risks without knowing what risks to take and what would benefit me. Had I a glimmer of an idea as to what I was doing, I know I wouldn't have lost so much.

Absolutely. But...

You have to recognise opportunities in order to take advantage of them. The vast majority of beginners have no idea what constitutes an opportunity.

Unfortunately. a lot of people think they're good. Doesn't mean they are.Yes, it's better to do something well than wait to be perfect, and do nothing. But you need to be good first.The one I agree with completely. And the one which most people don't/won't do. Most want everything on a plate. Handed to them. They don't want to work.

I got an idea about this when I was being trained by a copywriter a few years ago. He gave me task to do.

It was write out two sales pieces - each about 10-15 pages. I had to write each three times that day.

So I did.

Next day he asked me if I'd done the task.

When I said I did he was surprised.

I didn't say anything, but I realised from his response that most, if any, of his trainees didn't do it.
Here's my point...

You still need to start from the basics and get them under your belt before you can let go of the leash and do whatever you want to. You have to be willing to do what it takes.
And I'll finish off with what Brian McLeod said: CHECK YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR

If you can't accept that you don't know something, you will never learn.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

I take it to mean the guys who have gotten the most results.

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

What does it take to become one of the best (of the best)?

I think there are some people that are just born with a natural talent for the art of communication and they easily graspe the skill of using words to get their point across. Others have to learn it.

I think what can make you into a great copy writer is to study and learn from the best, educate yourself on the basics through trainings (youtube, google, etc) and then start doing it (take action). Track your results and see what works and what works better. Eventually, if you keep doing this you will become one of the best or at the least very good at it. (relatively speaking of course).

Re: How do you think the best became one of the best?
 

I enjoyed reading all the comments - when all is said and done (and many have said) - the best is all down to one thing - Results.