The "read great copy" MYTH ...

[Raydal]

Just about every copywriter I read would tell you that you
learn to write good copy by reading the masters.

But is that really true?

After doing a ton of copy critiques for my students and clients
I've come to realize that you learn a TON more about writing
copy by READING BAD COPY!

When you read a great sales letter it's like watching a master
painter at work, the more you watch the more you are mystified
by just how he does it.

And that's the magic of great writing. You know it is good. You
know it is effective. But you just can't put your finger on the
reason why.

-Ray Edwards

[visit_faraz]

Hmm, very true.
Maybe that's why it helps to rewrite bad salesletters.
We are able to locate the mistakes and correct them and thus learn in the process.

Thanks,
Faraz

[mormel]

Hi Raydal,

Its true, but ALSO true. Your taste is like a diamond, that gets more facets every time you confront it with something you sharpen it with. That can be something bad or something good: all these experiences amount to a better, more developed taste.
Which goes for educational experience as well.

Yours, warriorly, Ed

[Raydal]

Originally Posted by mormel

Hi Raydal,

Its true, but ALSO true. Your taste is like a diamond, that gets more facets every time you confront it with something you sharpen it with. That can be something bad or something good: all these experiences amount to a better, more developed taste.
Which goes for educational experience as well.

Yours, warriorly, Ed

The mystery I referred to the OP is created because someone new
to sales letter writing would not know what to look for in good
writing.

For example, I may say read this letter by Gary Halbert. You read
the letter and it grabs you by the eyeball and doesn't let you go
until you read the last word in the P.S.

The question now becomes: "How did he do that?"

'I don't know, he just did' I mean, the man can write.

Yet I see even non-copywriters who would give a critique asked
for in the forum and would say, "I stopped at the headline, it didn't
get my attention." They knew what was wrong and therfore knew
what needed to change.

-Ray Edwards

[JayXtreme]

Originally Posted by Raydal

Just about every copywriter I read would tell you that you
learn to write good copy by reading the masters.

But is that really true?

After doing a ton of copy critiques for my students and clients
I've come to realize that you learn a TON more about writing
copy by READING BAD COPY!

When you read a great sales letter it's like watching a master
painter at work, the more you watch the more you are mystified
by just how he does it.

And that's the magic of great writing. You know it is good. You
know it is effective. But you just can't put your finger on the
reason why.

-Ray Edwards

Thanks for the tips Ray.. always great to learn more from those who know the copywriting business very well..

Your sharing is much appreciated

Peace

Jay

[InternetMarketingCenter]

Hmmm -- not sure we agree.

If you look at bad art all the time, it doesn't necessarily make you a better artist, because it only teaches you about mistakes, not proper technique or balance or use of light.

That's the same way with salesletters -- if you look at something with bad structure, missing elements, etc, and don't look at something that DOES contain all the right elements, you'll know the bad stuff is bad... but you won't know why.

Looking at BOTH is the real key -- the comparison is invaluable. You'll learn to mimic what works, and avoid what doesn't.

It's just like life -- lessons come from successes AND failures.

[Adaptive]

Just about every copywriter I read would tell you that you
learn to write good copy by reading the masters.

But is that really true?

I believe it is really true, Ray. Look at what Marlon Sanders recently wrote here about his precious lock box of best of the best copywriting gems. And his discussion of the importance of the "swipe file" perfectly matches what so many brilliant advertisers discuss. Why carefully lock up something that's not precious?

And that's because they include two key concepts that you've left out of your post.

One crucial step is to learn the theory behind the great copy, by reading the explanations of the thought processes that were used by the masters. "Scientific Advertising," and the writings of Jay Abraham and Gary Halbert are all good examples of guru-quality information about not just what to do, but how to think about what to do. In this way, the individual techniques become less of a mystery.

And another crucial step is to saturate yourself with tidbits of great copy until you're well marinated. This can be done by rewriting great ads, and by putting individual headlines - bullet points - outlines - keywords - etc. onto a huge collection of index cards that you shuffle, along with a shuffled deck of features - bullet points - zingers about what you're currently selling. According to Gary Halbert, this is a key secret for reusing brilliant, proven sales words and principles in a fresh way.

Also according to Halbert, you need to say "Hrmn? Hmrnr? Hmmmrnr?!" a lot while doing all your shuffling. So I realize that strategy might not work for someone as eloquent as you, Ray.

I say, take the advice of the masters to learn from the masters. If the masters say that mastery is a learnable skill - which they all say...
and they all say that you learn by assembling your swipe file - which they all say...
then shouldn't I try that approach, which only requires $5 in index cards?

And along the way, sure, look at copy that sucks but with an ability to use your mind to identify what is broken.

I compare it to learning music theory for a musician. Knowing the theory of how to build a suspended chord gives you a tool and technique, but it doesn't take away anything at all from Mozart's or McCartney's magic of intuiting why and when to use the technique. Further metaphors: I suck at basketball, but if I wanted to get better, shouldn't I learn by studying Michael Jordan than the guys at the neighborhood park? Or, why wouldn't you want Captain Sully to be your flight instructor?

Regards,
Allen

[Adaptive]

I think you are referring to this thread

Yes, that's the one.

What's the story with your change of topic, from copywriting to the way the forum is run?

I was hoping we'd spark a debate. On your side, fixing what's broken and using intuition. On my side swipe files and evaluation checklists. I was hoping others would join in, and we'd get some helpful ideas that we could both learn from. Could have been a great discussion.

And I'll let you in on a secret: I'd probably have given in to acknowledging the need to fix broken copy as an essential ingredient in a copywriting education. Not only that, I'd have agreed that intuition plays an important role in how the masters make it look easy.

But I'd have enjoyed a provocative debate along the way.

Now that opportunity is gone... Instead, I see that you're pissed off about moderation. Huh?

So is the thread now about poor moderation, rather than about copywriting?

As for me, I don't see anything less valuable about your thread than Marlon's. They're both well written, well thought out conversation starters about copywriting techniques. Both are exactly the kind of thread I joined the WF to participate in. I hope nobody has it out for you here, but if someone days, I can tell you it's not me.

Regards,
Allen

P.S. I just posted to a "please review my ad" forum where the author could really use your help fixing up their bad copy!

[Raydal]

Originally Posted by Adaptive

Yes, that's the one.

What's the story with your change of topic, from copywriting to the way the forum is run?

I was hoping we'd spark a debate. On your side, fixing what's broken and using intuition. On my side swipe files and evaluation checklists. I was hoping others would join in, and we'd get some helpful ideas that we could both learn from. Could have been a great discussion.

And I'll let you in on a secret: I'd probably have given in to acknowledging the need to fix broken copy as an essential ingredient in a copywriting education. Not only that, I'd have agreed that intuition plays an important role in how the masters make it look easy.

But I'd have enjoyed a provocative debate along the way.

Now that opportunity is gone... Instead, I see that you're pissed off about moderation. Huh?

So is the thread now about poor moderation, rather than about copywriting?

As for me, I don't see anything less valuable about your thread than Marlon's. They're both well written, well thought out conversation starters about copywriting techniques. Both are exactly the kind of thread I joined the WF to participate in. I hope nobody has it out for you here, but if someone days, I can tell you it's not me.

Regards,
Allen

P.S. I just posted to a "please review my ad" forum where the author could really use your help fixing up their bad copy!

That's why I apologize for the change in topic. That was no directed
at you for sure, but you mentioning of the thread came was a
coincidence to me pointing out the "injustice" as I see it.

BACK TO TOPIC:

The point I was trying to make was that good writing is so smooth
and fluid that it's hard to determine what makes it that good.

Of course you can learn from studying the masters but there is a
DANGER that you'll just stand in awe instead of being able to
copy their skills.

I know that by beholding we become change and you learn
to identify the counterfeit by studying the genuine, but
at the same time what's WRONG can shock you into doing
what's right.

It's similar to exaggerating a point in order to make the opposite
point.

-Ray Edwards

[Adaptive]

That was no directed at you for sure

OK, fair enough. Let me know if you'd for me to remove my post.

Of course you can learn from studying the masters but there is a
DANGER that you'll just stand in awe instead of being able to
copy their skills.

Now that is a GREAT comment about mindset, and I think it applies in many areas of life. I know there have been times that I encountered the work of a master... and instead of responding with determination that I'll get 10% better, I just got discouraged at the 1000% gap between my best and theirs.

So the strategy of seeing where you already know something - by seeing how you can improve a disaster - can help reduce the risk of becoming like a deer in the headlights, too dazzled by the master's brilliance to take your own next step.

On the other hand, there's also a danger of getting so stuck in the mud that you forget the original aspiration to reach for the stars. Screenwriter Terry Rossio had an essay about this titled "Crap Plus One." His point was that people new to a field should not compare themselves to the worst junk that got sold, but to the best that they are capable of producing.

And I suspect that might be your point as well, just coming at it from another direction.

Regards,
Allen

[Kyle Tully]

Originally Posted by Raydal

Of course you can learn from studying the masters but there is a
DANGER that you'll just stand in awe instead of being able to
copy their skills.

I know that by beholding we become change and you learn
to identify the counterfeit by studying the genuine, but
at the same time what's WRONG can shock you into doing
what's right.

I gotta say I don't agree.

Sure, the first few "killer" salesletters you read just blow you away.

You'll have no idea how they did it but they'll keep you spellbound for 12+ pages.

But you don't learn by reading 1 or 2.

You learn by reading dozens of good letters hundreds of times.

Soon enough you get a "feel" for good copy -- even if you don't know the technical name for the techniques used.

For example, I started used open/nested loops in my copy waaaay before I knew what they were. I'd seen other copywriters using them, and even though I didn't know why they worked, or even how, I knew top copywriters were doing it so I simply imitated them.

Your point about people not knowing what makes a good letter good also applies to bad letters.

New copywriters don't know what makes a bad letter bad.

If they did we wouldn't have so much rubbish coming for critiques.

And whatever you feed your brain has gotta come out some time...

Cheers
Kyle

p.s. Personally I think hand writing winning ads was one of the most beneficial things I've ever done for my copywriting. Reading is one thing, but actually hand writing them takes the immersion to another level.

[AlanCarr]

With my handwriting it takes the immersion to the indecipherable, but I try anyway


B.

[Nomics]

Great post. Especially when such subtle changes can make a massive deference. A lot of times it's much easier to understand what makes a copy bad, then what makes it great.

[MikeHumphreys]

Ray,

You know I'm a fan of yours but I have to disagree with you on this one. I ran track competitively for 12 years including my first 2 years in college. One mantra our coaches always told us was "perfect practice makes perfect performance".

Unless you know what to look for in bad copy that makes it bad, you can easily miss it. You can also pick up some really bad habits like writing 3 mile long headlines that say nothing other than 'please leave this sales letter immediately because I'm about to bore you to tears'.

That's why video critiques like you do in your membership site are so valuable: You can point out both the good and bad things to help teach.

Personally, I do it all: study the masters, read proven winning sales letters, and watch video training. I do something everyday to keep refining my skills. The way I see it, why limit yourself to where you can learn the techniques to writing great copy.

Take care,

Mike

[wrcato]

I always thought great copy is in the trmendous sales it makes and bad copy didn't make much if any sales. That is what copy is all about any way... sales?

I have re-written by hand every sales letter that Gary Halbert ever wrote or I could get my hands on. I have also hand written most of the legends sales peices. For myself this is the best writing school you could invest in. I call it "copy time learning". I still do it. You should too.

[Kevin Lam]

I cannot give a definite "yes" or "no." It's another one of those "it's both!"

If you think about it, how can you know what is bad if you don't know what is good? And how do you know what is good if you don't know what is bad? That's why it's important to learn both to learn the differences.

[Raydal]

I'm not throwing out the value of reading great copy but I still
think there's a danger of reading great copy and not knowing
WHY it is effective.

It's often said that the best way to learn a subject is to teach it.
And when you teach you have to evaluate your students work.
This evaluation process goes a long way towards helping you to
better understand what works and what doesn't.

But there is a "mystery" to good writing. And this can often be
so transparent that the reader miss what's taking place in the
background.

For example, I've often seen rookie copywriters use a "story"
by saying, "I use to be like you. But now I've found this tool
I have seen success." (Telling versus showing)

The real power of the story is not to say it upfront, but to
let the reader infer that 'plot'. So instead of saying: "It's
not your fault ..." Show reasons outside of their control why
they haven't lost weight. (And there is a lot of weight in that
last statement!)

Good writing can be so transparent that you don't know what
you are really reading. The persuasive power is so mysterious.

-Ray Edwards

[Kyle Tully]

Originally Posted by Raydal

But there is a "mystery" to good writing. And this can often be
so transparent that the reader miss what's taking place in the
background.

For example, I've often seen rookie copywriters use a "story"
by saying, "I use to be like you. But now I've found this tool
I have seen success." (Telling versus showing)

The real power of the story is not to say it upfront, but to
let the reader infer that 'plot'. So instead of saying: "It's
not your fault ..." Show reasons outside of their control why
they haven't lost weight. (And there is a lot of weight in that
last statement!)

But wouldn't that "telling" habit be picked up either from reading bad copy, or reading about copy (e.g. copywriting "how to" books)?

If you're reading (and modeling) great copy then you're going to naturally start showing because that's what they do.

You might not know that you're "infering" the plot. And you might not know it's more powerful this way. But you know that's how they did it so you're doing it that way too.

At least... that's how is was for me.

[Raydal]

Originally Posted by Kyle Tully

But wouldn't that "telling" habit be picked up either from reading bad copy, or reading about copy (e.g. copywriting "how to" books)?

If you're reading (and modeling) great copy then you're going to naturally start showing because that's what they do.

You might not know that you're "infering" the plot. And you might not know it's more powerful this way. But you know that's how they did it so you're doing it that way too.

At least... that's how is was for me.

My whole point here is that you wouldn't know that's what the
writer is doing. It's like looking at Micheal Jordan playing
basketball and noticing that he always sticks out his tongue
anytime he goes for a shot. Is this something that helps or hinders?

Should an aspiring basketball player copy him there?

Note that I'm not against reading the masters, just trying to point
out that he learning by "osmosis" seldom takes place.

-Ray Edwards

[snyd]

Raydal,

Thanks for starting this thread,
I've picked up some great tips.

Rod

[mr.steve]

Ray,

Good post, as usual.

I agree you should read bad copy,
but I think the way to learn is first
study copywriting by reading a
few good books on the subject,
and then read the classic sales
letters and spot how the techniques
are used in a real sales pitch.

You'll also start picking up other
techniques by reading good copy,
as Kyle Tully pointed out.

As for reading bad copy, I think
most copywriters read copy
all the time, and so get their
share of the bad stuff. It
becomes a way of life to dissect
a bad sales letter and think how
you would improve it.

I used to work as a news writer/editor
in the UK, and one of my pastimes
was to pick up a copy of a local newspaper
and see how the local hacks had
managed to take a decent story and
turn it into dull sludge by bad writing.

Like copywriting, powerful news writing
is a real craft, with lots of hidden
techniques to make the reader keep
on reading.

Another thing I think a copywriter should
do is study decent writing of all kinds.
One of the hallmarks of Gary Bencivenga's
stuff is that it's incredibly well-crafted
and readable. The guy is just a good
writer. No matter what he writes,
it always comes across as worthy
of attention.

Cheers

Steve

[Raydal]

Originally Posted by mr.steve

Ray,

Good post, as usual.

I used to work as a news writer/editor
in the UK, and one of my pastimes
was to pick up a copy of a local newspaper
and see how the local hacks had
managed to take a decent story and
turn it into dull sludge by bad writing.

Like copywriting, powerful news writing
is a real craft, with lots of hidden
techniques to make the reader keep
on reading.

Another thing I think a copywriter should
do is study decent writing of all kinds.
One of the hallmarks of Gary Bencivenga's
stuff is that it's incredibly well-crafted
and readable. The guy is just a good
writer. No matter what he writes,
it always comes across as worthy
of attention.

Cheers

Steve

Steve,

Since you worked as an editor then I know you'll get my point.
Reading the bad stores and correcting them in your mind strengthens
the good techniques.

And for sure I agree Bencivenga and also Makepeace are good
writers outside of being copywriters. I love reading their stuff.
I tell my copy students always that they need to read books about
how to write, not just on copywriting.

I also study books on editing. Just completed one last week.
Some of the suggestions don't apply to sales letters but the
advice help to sharpen my writing.

-Ray Edwards

[BethD]

The best advice I ever got on copywriting was from my editor at an ad agency. He said the only reason a sentence should exist was to get the reader to read the next sentence until they just couldn't sit on their wallet any longer and HAD to buy what we were selling. LOL

[Kevin Lam]

Beth, that kinda sounds like what Joe Sugarman was teaching. Off the top of my head, it's something like the "slide effect" or something. The purpose of the headline is to get the person to read the first sentence. The purpose of the first sentence is to get the person to read the second sentence - so on and so forth.

[mr.steve]

Originally Posted by Raydal

Steve,

Since you worked as an editor then I know you'll get my point.
Reading the bad stores and correcting them in your mind strengthens
the good techniques.

-Ray Edwards

Ray

Sure I get your point. It's spot on about reading
bad copy and thinking about how you can improve it.

One thing this definitely does is improve the editing
of your own work. Reading bad copy and working
out what could be done to improve it helps when
you come to reading your own copy and deciding
what needs to be done to make it flow better.

Cheers

Steve