Need help writing a copy

[hernan10]

Hey there.
I am planning to launch a guide on stock day trading.... problem is, I dont know how to write a copy for this...

It is aimed towards newcomers and intermediate stock traders... but i am absolutely lost on how to convince them buy from me....

I am on a very (VERY) tight budget and cannot afford a copywriter...All I can rely on is tips and directions...

please shower your knowledge ..

[Chris Ramsey]

The biggest I can give you is this.

Scientific Advertising: http://www.chris-ramsey.com/scientific-advertising.pdf

This is one of the 'must-reads' for every copywriter.

It'll get you started in the right direction.

Good luck!

[Raydal]

Here's a letter I wrote a few years ago that did over 68% optin rate!
You can review it and get some clues to writing your own.

How to Make $211 to $2,372 a Day!

-Ray Edwards

[briancassingena]

Hey

One thing you can do to increase your copywriting knowledge is to opt in for all the free marketing and copywriting material you can find. Just do a google search for terms like Copywriting, Direct Reponse, Internet Marketing, and so on. You should find enough free courses you can exchange for your email address that will teach you a lot about writing copy.

Also start creating a swipe file of sales letters. Go to the major guru's sites and save a copy of their sales letter on your hard drive. Read their emails and notice their selling techniques.

Print out sales letters so they're easier to read, and go ahead and copy them down on paper by hand, yes, page after page, this will get you used to the structure. THat's how I learned.

You can also get cheap sales letters done on elance and rentacoder. They won't be that good, but for a few hundred bucks at the most you can get something you can rework into a decent sales letter which saves you time, and if it takes of you can get a real good sales letter written.

One thing to think about is your product and its price: ANy copywriter should be able to get you at least to break even on his fee with product sales. If I charge $5000 for a job then it should produce at least $5000 in sales.

[hernan10]

Originally Posted by briancassingena

Hey

If I charge $5000 for a job then it should produce at least $5000 in sales.

That sounds like a really bad deal to me!! :/

thank you guys for the amazing info!

[briancassingena]

Originally Posted by hernan10

That sounds like a really bad deal to me!! :/

thank you guys for the amazing info!

You miss my point. To be clearer: Think of all the ebook sellers out there. How many $47 sales do you need to make back the $5000?

107.

The vast majority of copywriters couldn't sell 107 copies of Magnetic Marketing 2009 for $47.

So maybe you have to think about selling a product which will easily make you a profit over and above the copywriting fee. You need to be selling higher priced products, $500 and above. $1,000 and above.

This gives you the ability to get a great sales letter written. Here, you can now pay $5000 to $15000 for a top shelf world class letter because it's only 15 sales to get back $15000. And you also have buying power with advertising, you can afford to spend more on online and offline advertising and every sale you make has much more profit built in.

[reynald2790]

Hi!

I really want to help you in copy writing for $100 I could do it very nicely and more convincing to the buyers or visitors for your site.

[Dean Dhuli]

Originally Posted by hernan10

Hey there.
I am planning to launch a guide on stock day trading.... problem is, I dont know how to write a copy for this...

It is aimed towards newcomers and intermediate stock traders... but i am absolutely lost on how to convince them buy from me....

I am on a very (VERY) tight budget and cannot afford a copywriter...All I can rely on is tips and directions...

please shower your knowledge ..

Unfortunately for you, copywriters in this niche are relatively expensive
and this is one of those niches where you're better off getting a copywriter
than writing the copy yourself when you don't know how.

But then, more important than the copy itself is the marketing system you have
in place.

If you're thinking you can use the copy to pluck money out of thin air, then
you're in trouble.

[hernan10]

Originally Posted by briancassingena

You miss my point. To be clearer: Think of all the ebook sellers out there. How many $47 sales do you need to make back the $5000?

107.

The vast majority of copywriters couldn't sell 107 copies of Magnetic Marketing 2009 for $47.

So maybe you have to think about selling a product which will easily make you a profit over and above the copywriting fee. You need to be selling higher priced products, $500 and above. $1,000 and above.

This gives you the ability to get a great sales letter written. Here, you can now pay $5000 to $15000 for a top shelf world class letter because it's only 15 sales to get back $15000. And you also have buying power with advertising, you can afford to spend more on online and offline advertising and every sale you make has much more profit built in.

Oh I totally get your point but the problem is, I cannot price my product that high. But you are also right, getting an expensive copywriter for such a price is useless so I guess I will have to write the copy myself. Its okay, will just keep posting it here to get reviews on my copy....

Thank you once again.

Originally Posted by Dean Dhuli

Unfortunately for you, copywriters in this niche are relatively expensive
and this is one of those niches where you're better off getting a copywriter
than writing the copy yourself when you don't know how.

But then, more important than the copy itself is the marketing system you have
in place.

If you're thinking you can use the copy to pluck money out of thin air, then
you're in trouble.

Yes, the marketing system will be very tricky in this too. SEO is not a very fruitful option. I have been checking out google,yahoo and msn for the search results for my keywords and I notice the first 25 spots have been fixed for quite some months. All controlled either by wikipedia or big shot trading brokers. I have a feeling their spots are fixed and will not move. Which means I will have to rely on email lists, article marketing and newsletters.... Still looking for the big email list holders.....

[Adaptive]

Hi Hernan,

I'm confused.

You write,

I dont know how to write a copy for this

and

i am absolutely lost on how to convince them buy from me

but you also have

SEO Expert

by your name.

Anyway, I think it would be helpful for you to put in a few words about the market you are pursuing. How old are these people? As for intermediate, is there a particular amount of money or time in the market that would get people to this level? What is their situation in life? What are their emotional needs and reasons for investing, beyond just the cash returns?

Now for the competition. What do they offer? What is strong about what the competition provides? Where are there gaps in what the competition provides, but the market is eager to buy? How do you know the market is eager to buy what's not for sale?

And on to you. Are you an expert at stock trading? Are you also an expert teacher? Have you taught other people to excel at stock trading? What position can you legitimately claim in this field as your own personal unique value?

Then to the offer. By guide, do you mean an ebook? A newsletter? A subscription web site? Is this really the format traders prefer? How do you know that? What could the guide be worth to someone who diligently uses it? How much of that value can legitimately charge? What's your return policy? What evidence is there that will help someone to have faith in you and your offer?

Until you've answered these kinds of questions, any copy you write will suck.

Strategy first, then tactics. Your marketing PLAN is the strategy. Copywriting for your sales letter is a tactic.

Regards,
Allen

[Loren Woirhaye]

Originally Posted by hernan10

Oh I totally get your point but the problem is, I cannot price my product that high.

- says who? have you ever tried to price a product higher or are you just making an assumption.

You are not your customer. If all you offer is an ebook on stock trading you may have difficulty with your present copy skills persuading web visitors to pay you $47 for a PDF - and where does that lead us?

A: add value and get more money. Value must be perceived first. The frame of
your offer, the way it is presented, has a great effect on price elasticity.

getting an expensive copywriter for such a price is useless so I guess I will have to write the copy myself. Its okay, will just keep posting it here to get reviews on my copy....

-- you don't HAVE to do anything. You can choose to write your own copy. If you are making such great money playing the stocks I wonder why you are committed to not working with a professional to structure your offer and bring it to the market.

AND - what makes you think the free advice you get here is worth anything?

I have a feeling their spots are fixed and will not move. Which means I will have to rely on email lists, article marketing and newsletters.... Still looking for the big email list holders.....

Yah. I get the feeling you are promoting a guide to making money when you don't have any money on hand yourself. Perhaps releasing such a product is not aligned with your values and that is why it seems like such a struggle. Perhaps if you focus on skills you DO have, ie. stock trading, you could raise some capital and position your business differently.

[hernan10]

Hey Allen,
thanks for your response

First of all.. SEO Expert stands for Search Engine Optimization expert... You want a website to rank higher, im the guy for the job... regardless of how good your material is ( it should be original though..doesn't matter if it sucks.. if its copied, search engines wont index it)...

I know a bit about SEO doesn't mean I am supposed to be an expert copywriter too

Hope that helped with the confusion.....

The age group doesn't matter. All they need is the will to gain an extra source of income.
They will require money to buy stocks. Learning time is a very vague thing in stock trading. You cannot follow one pattern. But I do provide info on how to think, what to look out for, how to minimize the risk and maximize profits. I teach them everything they need to know about getting in this trade.

The ebook is aimed towards beginners and intermediate traders.. The experts might not find it very useful.

I covered a lot of what you have asked...however, there are a couple of questions which I dint.

Thank you for your useful post.

Originally Posted by Adaptive

Hi Hernan,

I'm confused.

You write, and but you also have by your name.

Anyway, I think it would be helpful for you to put in a few words about the market you are pursuing. How old are these people? As for intermediate, is there a particular amount of money or time in the market that would get people to this level? What is their situation in life? What are their emotional needs and reasons for investing, beyond just the cash returns?

Now for the competition. What do they offer? What is strong about what the competition provides? Where are there gaps in what the competition provides, but the market is eager to buy? How do you know the market is eager to buy what's not for sale?

And on to you. Are you an expert at stock trading? Are you also an expert teacher? Have you taught other people to excel at stock trading? What position can you legitimately claim in this field as your own personal unique value?

Then to the offer. By guide, do you mean an ebook? A newsletter? A subscription web site? Is this really the format traders prefer? How do you know that? What could the guide be worth to someone who diligently uses it? How much of that value can legitimately charge? What's your return policy? What evidence is there that will help someone to have faith in you and your offer?

Until you've answered these kinds of questions, any copy you write will suck.

Strategy first, then tactics. Your marketing PLAN is the strategy. Copywriting for your sales letter is a tactic.

Regards,
Allen

[MontelloMarketing]

Originally Posted by hernan10

The age group doesn't matter. All they need is the will to gain an extra source of income.

Wrong... wrong... wrong! Age group... as well as other demographics are very important. This is for many reasons, one of which is the voice of the copy. You don't speak to 20-somethings the same way you speak to 60-somethings. Maybe you can get away with that when writing SEO copy... but not sales copy.

And do yourself a favor hernan... a HUGE favor. Once you get the copy that will be on your sales page... DO NOT try to optimize it for SEO by any means that show up on the page. Most noticeably keywords. SEO destroys sales. I know that might be hard for you to swallow but repeat after me... SEO destroys sales. Remember that when you put out your sales letter.

[hernan10]

Originally Posted by Loren Woirhaye

- says who? have you ever tried to price a product higher or are you just making an assumption.

You are not your customer. If all you offer is an ebook on stock trading you may have difficulty with your present copy skills persuading web visitors to pay you $47 for a PDF - and where does that lead us?

A: add value and get more money. Value must be perceived first. The frame of
your offer, the way it is presented, has a great effect on price elasticity.



-- you don't HAVE to do anything. You can choose to write your own copy. If you are making such great money playing the stocks I wonder why you are committed to not working with a professional to structure your offer and bring it to the market.

AND - what makes you think the free advice you get here is worth anything?







Yah. I get the feeling you are promoting a guide to making money when you don't have any money on hand yourself. Perhaps releasing such a product is not aligned with your values and that is why it seems like such a struggle. Perhaps if you focus on skills you DO have, ie. stock trading, you could raise some capital and position your business differently.

1. I decided the price of my book based on what my competitors are offering. how my product is diff/better than theirs... but yes, I didnot take the 'bling bling' into account. I will look into that.


2. I believe that people here have knowledge which they would like to share; knowledge which I could use. I dont have a code which says that I will believe and follow everything they say. I don't see any harm in taking 'free advice'

3. I understand why you feel that way. All I can say that It is in my nature to get bored of stuff and try new stuff...and I like to start from scratch! I used to work as an Informations System and Corporate Auditor. Got bored of that, went into SEO..didnot take any paid course... read, studied, tried, failed, read more, succeeded, provided SEO services..
I want to try internet marketing. I know that my product is good and I providing quality material but just because I dont know how to market it and don't want to use a big budget..........ok i dunno how to word it.....

lets put it this way....my aim is not to make money... it is to succeed at what i want to do..... and I want to do it the hard way.

[Adaptive]

SEO destroys sales.

Vin, could you please start a new thread about that? I'm curious about what you mean. It's a great provocative statement that could lead to some interesting discussion.

my aim is not to make money... it is to succeed at what i want to do

Hernan, I don't understand how you could succeed at Internet marketing while not making money.

and I want to do it the hard way

That also confuses me. Why not look for people who have succeeded, and do what they say is the easiest way to succeed? People like Gary Halbert, John Carleton, Michel Fortin, and so many others have succeeded at copywriting and Internet marketing, and they all discuss at length how crucial it is to know the demographics of your customer and get inside the customer's mind. Why make things harder than what successful people explain is the easiest way to replicate their success?

Regards,
Allen

[hernan10]

Originally Posted by Adaptive

Vin, could you please start a new thread about that? I'm curious about what you mean. It's a great provocative statement that could lead to some interesting discussion.


Hernan, I don't understand how you could succeed at Internet marketing while not making money.


That also confuses me. Why not look for people who have succeeded, and do what they say is the easiest way to succeed? People like Gary Halbert, John Carleton, Michel Fortin, and so many others have succeeded at copywriting and Internet marketing, and they all discuss at length how crucial it is to know the demographics of your customer and get inside the customer's mind. Why make things harder than what successful people explain is the easiest way to replicate their success?

Regards,
Allen

I could either:

A:
- Hire a great salescopywriter - $5000
- Spend a fortune on adwords and hire a 'PPC Expert' - $25,000 - $30,000
- Pretty much outsource everything

or

B:
- Read, learn and do everything myself... except for the graphics... theres no hope in that area!
I don't see the fun in A.. thats just simple management.. B is a steep learning curve...
I agree, with success comes money and vice versa... but my intention/motivation is not for the money....

I love how this topic has diverged from giving me sales copy ideas to judging my intentions behing what I am doing. Just reminded me why I love this place so much.

[BigVin]

Do you have a site we can see?

Start reading the Gary Halbert Letter... and learn copywriting!

[MontelloMarketing]

Originally Posted by Adaptive

Vin, could you please start a new thread about that? I'm curious about what you mean. It's a great provocative statement that could lead to some interesting discussion.

Not sure it commands its own thread but put simply... A copywriter's job is to write copy that sucks buyers into a ride. A ride down a slippery slide to the sale. When you take your copywriter's work, then stuff the top of it with keywords, you can't help but become a speedbump on that ride.

It's best to do all your keyword stuffing onto another page, then redirect them to the sales letter where there is no seo writing.

That said... there's nothing wrong with other types of SEO. I'm speaking only of placing stuff in the letter that doesn't belong there.

Or better yet. Screw SEO. Buy targeted ads and make sure your copy converts well enough to support it and give you a profit.

[Robert_Rand]

Originally Posted by hernan10

Hey there.
I am planning to launch a guide on stock day trading.... problem is, I dont know how to write a copy for this...

It is aimed towards newcomers and intermediate stock traders... but i am absolutely lost on how to convince them buy from me....

I am on a very (VERY) tight budget and cannot afford a copywriter...All I can rely on is tips and directions...

please shower your knowledge ..

Imagine your ideal prospect who is interested in what you have to offer. What would you say to them if you were speaking face to face? Surely, if you are knowledgable in this field this shouldn't be a problem...

Don't worry about "copywriting". Start with your sales message - what would you say to persuade them? Sell strong, not apologetically. Remember, they're interested in what you have to offer. Excite them with the possibilities and at the same time address their objections.

Practice speaking your message outloud; ideally with a live prospect. Then once you've developed an effective sales message, you simply translate that into the written word - there's your salesletter.

Then you can tweak the most pivotal areas (headline, offer, close) until the letter converts.

Good Luck!

[hernan10]

That is amazing advice rand... you rock!

A question ... please dont verbally abuse me for throwing out the following thought.. and please don't start getting any weird ideas.....


I have visited a lot of salescopy writers personal websites or blogs where they talk about how sales come with the COMBINATION of " good sales copy AND good product"

Why does the product being good matter?... The prospect cannot see it until he buys it... so basically, he's going to buy based on the sales letter.... cause for all he/we know, theres a crappy 2 page product behing the sales letter ( which will ofcourse be asked for a refund) ...

I could sell a body building guide... which the buyer might not know how good it is unless he buys it.. which depends solely on the copy....

right?

[Ken Strong]

Originally Posted by hernan10

Why does the product being good matter?... The prospect cannot see it until he buys it... so basically, he's going to buy based on the sales letter.... cause for all he/we know, theres a crappy 2 page product behing the sales letter ( which will ofcourse be asked for a refund) ...

You already answered your own question... yes, you can sell a crappy product with good copy, but you'll get a ton of refunds, so those "sales" really weren't sales after you give the money back.

You'll also get a bad reputation, and you certainly won't be building a list or getting any back-end sales from these unhappy people. So that's why you need a good product AND good copy.

[Adaptive]

Vin, thanks for the clarification about SEO.

Hernan, I need to apologize for my failure at

giving me sales copy ideas

While knowing nothing about your product, I was unable to give you the magic words that will make people want to buy it.

While seeing that you're discussing whether or not a mediocre, lousy product is good enough to sell and run away with the money, I was unable to give you the magic words to inspire confidence in your offer's excellence.

While knowing nothing about your competition, I was unable to give you the magic words to outflank them in the minds of your prospective buyers.

While knowing nothing about your market, I was unable to give you the magic words to capture their interest and desire, build rapport and reach the emotional core of their desires.

While knowing nothing about you, I was unable to give you the magic words to demonstrate your expertise and competence to make your buyers believe in you.

While seeing unresolved contradictions in what you've said, I was unable to give you the absolutely consistent magic words that will ensure buyers aren't confused for even a second.

The fault is, obviously, my own, for not providing $5,000 worth of free consulting that you can't afford from the stock system you want others to buy.

I'll try to not be such a loser when you next need me. Maybe if I bought the astral projection course from another forum member, I could psychically go into the minds of your buyers and of you, freeing you of all that pesky research.

It's not like following Gary Halbert's free advice would be likely to lead to copywriting success, is it? After all, the intention of skipping over what he - and others like him - said are crucial steps before writing is all my problem, isn't it?

Sorry to let you down!

Regards,
Allen

[hernan10]

Feel free to put this back into the forum if you like.

Regards,
Allen

There you go Allen!!

[Bruce NewMedia]

Originally Posted by hernan10

Yes, the marketing system will be very tricky in this too. SEO is not a very fruitful option. I have been checking out google,yahoo and msn for the search results for my keywords and I notice the first 25 spots have been fixed for quite some months. All controlled either by wikipedia or big shot trading brokers. I have a feeling their spots are fixed and will not move. Which means I will have to rely on email lists, article marketing and newsletters.... Still looking for the big email list holders.....

Hernan why fret over the source of traffic for your stock trading book?....just use one of the 4 traffic WSO's you've been running yourself!

Latest one: http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...ads-sales.html

_____
Bruce

[Ken Strong]

Originally Posted by brucerby

Hernan why fret over the source of traffic for your stock trading book?....just use one of the 4 traffic WSO's you've been running yourself!

Either that or read the ebook you're selling and make some dough with day trading...

[John Chen]

Originally Posted by hernan10

B:
- Read, learn and do everything myself... except for the graphics... theres no hope in that area!
I don't see the fun in A.. thats just simple management.. B is a steep learning curve...
I agree, with success comes money and vice versa... but my intention/motivation is not for the money....

Why wouldn't anyone want to help you if you only do it for fun?

Good luck with learning to do it all. I'd rather focus on helping
other people who don't just do it for fun.

Best regards,

[TimCastleman]

I went to the doctor yesterday. I had him look at a spot on my arm I was concerned about possible skin cancer. He took a skin sample, looked at it and in about 4 minutes said I was fine and good to go home. He then gave me a bill for almost a $1000. I asked him if he really thought that he was worth a $1000 for 4 minutes of his time.

He then said the following:

"Tim you're not paying for 4 minutes, your paying for 7 years of school and 3 years of on the job training and the 40 hours a year of continuing education that it took to tell you in 4 minutes that you're fine."

The same goes for copywriting. Want to learn it - fine, spend every night from 6pm to 1am reading ever copywriting book you can get your hands on. The buy several CD series and DVD sets on copywriting and watch those. Then sit down and write several sales letters. Then pay for 1 on 1 mentoring. Then travel to local and national conferences to pitch your services.

What to hard? Sound like too much work for you? Want a quick fix?

There isn't any.

You have to put in the time and effort to see the results (the same goes for anything in life - health, money, etc).

You can't be "showered" with it.

Stop being cheap.

Either put in the time OR pay someone else who has put in the time. The choice is yours.

[hernan10]

brucerby: I will ofcourse use my method..but you see, the traffic i target will still read my salespage... i have gained hundreds of cpa leads in a day and promoting other products using that method but they din't that well for my own.. I have heard a few times that my sales page was crappy...

john: I think 'fun' was not the word I wanted to use..or maybe it was but u misinterpreted it. I am serious about this . I just want it to be more that simple business management...

Tim: I get your point...I guess I will start looking for a copywriter.

Thank you all for your replies

[Gunter Eibl]

Originally Posted by TimCastleman

He then said the following:

"Tim you're not paying for 4 minutes, your paying for 7 years of school and 3 years of on the job training and the 40 hours a year of continuing education that it took to tell you in 4 minutes that you're fine."

LOL. So true. What most people do is running to 10 different doctors for $100 each, also shelling out $1000 total (or even more, not counting the waste of time) but still get back nothing for their money because these doctors have no clue.

That's the cost of an expert. Either you want to get it right or mess around!

Gunter

[fahadabrarkhan]

Yes its true that people don't understand the value of expertise.
Expertise is what that makes people stand out of the crowd.
Charge more money.