Go Back   WarriorForum - Internet Marketing Forums > The Warrior Forum > The Copywriting Forum
Register Blogs FAQ Social Groups CalendarHelp Desk

Reply
 
Share
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-02-2013, 11:40 PM   #151
Words Rule the World
War Room Member
 
Pusateri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: South Texas Coast
Posts: 585
Thanks: 707
Thanked 667 Times in 300 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post
Aha. There you go.

Too many people put up references to other sources without bothering to check them out.

And here I thought copywriters were thorough in their research.

Maybe not.

Looks like my new career as a researcher for copywriters might be just in time.
Google Scholar is a preliminary research tool. It gives you access to abstracts and snippets, not complete papers (for the most part.)

To read most full papers you will need a library or a JSTOR membership.

I had read several abstracts back when this thread started. If you will remember, my question at that time was:

"What is NLP?"

I asked that question because it seems there are as many definitions as there are NLPistas, and I think it's important to know WHAT something is before looking into whether it might be "hogwash."

You dismissed my question, telling me not listen to what others say it is and to find out for myself.

I responded that i was posing the question to YOU, one of the proprietors of a site called persuadewithnlp.

Your response: "if you go to the site, there's a guy, Clive Cable, who can answer that question for you."

My conclusion: Rezbi don't know.

Which sent me to Google Scholar and elsewhere...beginning to feel like Diogenes.

I came to the conclusion that other than being a modeling methodology, there is not much I can determine about NLP, except that it's very attractive to flighty types.

If I wanted to sell an NLP course, I think I would do very well targeting known buyers of cosmic healing, big foot and UFO material.

Throughout this thread you have pimped NLP as a science. Today you call scientists frauds.

I called you on that and gave you a starting point for real research on pretty much any scholarly subject, since your mention of "the media" as your well of scientific knowledge demonstrated you were sorely in need.

What did you come back with?

"Well, if that's anything to go by, there's a few there which seem to give NLP more credibility than wikipedia."

Holy confirmation bias!
Pusateri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2013, 12:22 AM   #152
caveat lector,emptor fiet
War Room Member
 
Colin Theriot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Roswell, GA
Posts: 730
Thanks: 160
Thanked 773 Times in 293 Posts
Social Networking View Member's FaceBook Profile  View Member's Twitter Profile  View Member's YouTube Profile
Contact Info
Send a message via Yahoo to Colin Theriot
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

To take a step back and find the "Cult" marketing that allows "NLP" to thrive:

1. Take a study or discipline that people want to learn or want help with, do a survey of it and pull out some really juicy bits that you know work. What will happen is that when people use "your" stuff, it will work. You will get credit.

2. Create a bunch of acronyms and new words for these working bits and explain a "system" of how they work together. If you are the "in" for people coming into the discipline, you control their ability to learn more, because you've given them made-up names for concepts instead of the commonly used ones. They MUST come to you for more because they can't dig deeper without real handles on the subject matter.

3. Reference the older works, too. Claim your work is an expansion and further development of it (even though it's just repeating it with a new name). Name-drop this pedigree for authority. Your reference of the sources you borrowed from legitimizes what you're doing beyond just a re-name. And even if they DO dig deeper into the source works, these are usually academic and dense, so "your" stuff seems like you made it accessible and "for the masses" when really you've simplified by omission, not by adding elegant insight.

4. Market your names for these things heavily, correct people when they use the older names. Whenever people talk about the old works you've co-opted, bring up the new names. "Your" people will defend your work for you because it DOES work for them, and they NEED you. When they encounter the pre-existing working things you teach out in the wild, they'll use YOUR names and give you credit. Even if it pre-dates you, they'll say, "oh this was early before they KNEW what they were REALLY doing!"

5. Charge A LOT for "training". Rinse, repeat, get rich, and retire.

Fair warning: It's possible I'm arguing with you because I have nothing better to do.
Join my free copywriting group on Facebook: http://CultOfCopy.com
Colin Theriot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2013, 03:36 AM   #153
Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
UKCopyKing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Bedfordshire, UK
Posts: 16
Thanks: 8
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Hi Guys,

Newbie here so be gentle!

I've probably had almost £20k's worth of combined NLP and Psychology training. With both there are some extremely useful areas and practical advice that copywriters should be blending in to their copy.

That said, for me, NLP is not the magic ingredient. No amount of persuasive words can be a substitute for deeply researching your audience and understanding the way they operate. In my opinion, NLP techniques only have their place within copy that has already successfully engaged and interested the reader.

NLP practitioners will tell you that the use of NLP is essential for buildinng rapport, for me that rapport already needs to have been built before any NLP techniques are introduced. Otherwise you lose that other key ingredient - believability.
UKCopyKing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2013, 02:39 PM   #154
Enlightened Marketer
War Room Member
 
Ron Herman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Las Vegas, USA & Bohol, Manila & Palawan Philippines
Posts: 91
Thanks: 16
Thanked 35 Times in 20 Posts
Social Networking View Member's FaceBook Profile 
Contact Info
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pusateri View Post
I didn' ask for an opinion. I asked someone who writes for a site called persuadewithnlp two questions:

Are there any NLP inventions or discoveries?

and

How do NLP patterns differ from the patterns of classical rhetoric?

Guess he can't answer them. Is there anyone here who can?
Hypnotic words, woven into story, embedded inside other stories or sub-plots is NLP. Call it salesmanship, rhetoric, or artful banter, the end result is the same. The words are used to evoke desired emotions in the listener or reader.

In old school sales we would say things like "when you get this in your home" rather than "if you buy this today" and called that a presumptive close. In NLP it is called presupposition. It is the same thing with a different name.

I agree that many marketers of NLP training are the equivalent of snake oil peddlers; and I would of course add that the real issue is whether NLP patterns really do work. While weak attempts by unpolished practitioners of the hypnotic language patterns of NLP tend to come off as clumsy and ham-handed, true masters of the art shine. Whether employed verbally or in print, a good many of the patterns do have the effect for which they are deployed.

You yourself use NLP, though you may not be aware of it (we all do at one time or another, often unbeknownst to ourselves). The "natural" salesmen you have met in your life were using NLP patterns though they may have never heard the term NLP before. This is what NLP practitioner-trainers call unconscious competence. NLP patterns were created by "modelling" such naturally hypnotic orators.

And again, yes there are charlatans in the industry aplenty. The allure of quick bucks from the pockets of unwitting neophytes is hard for hucksters to resist. Do yourself a favor and don't be too hasty in throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I wouldn't ask you to simply believe NLP works until you see the results and hear the explanation of the patterns as they're being used effectively.

$25,384 In Only 5 Days! - Amazing System Anyone Can Copy - Offline Ninja

Offliners: Join Local Marketing Bootcamp Free. http://www.facebook.com/groups/LocalMarketingBootcamp/
Ron Herman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2013, 03:25 PM   #155
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,990
Thanks: 384
Thanked 404 Times in 306 Posts
Social Networking View Member's Twitter Profile  View Member's YouTube Profile
Contact Info
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

12 Scientific Findings That Were Actually Faked

12 Scientific Hoaxes - Business Insider

Yes, science can be faked, depending on the paymaster's requirements.

Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2013, 04:02 PM   #156
Passionate Storyteller.
 
Moriarty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Utrecht and Lüneburg
Posts: 179
Thanks: 40
Thanked 38 Times in 34 Posts
Social Networking View Member's FaceBook Profile  View Member's Twitter Profile 
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
12 Scientific Findings That Were Actually Faked
I am afraid that the more intellectual the person, the more gullible they really are. In fact the person who claims not to be gullible usually is.

Those who know their gullibility know where they are gullible. That is one step on the road, let us say.

NLP is just another explanation for how the brain works. Whilst we are all struggling to define it, we have our dreams, our premonitions and thoughts. None of which are quite so easy to define.

So in the mean time, we have Freud, Jung, Adler and their followers - and NLP. Some people like it because it speaks to them. If they learn something about themselves, learn a little of their weaknesses, it won't have done them any harm.

And that's what counts in the long run.

Moriarty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2013, 04:22 PM   #157
Words Rule the World
War Room Member
 
Pusateri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: South Texas Coast
Posts: 585
Thanks: 707
Thanked 667 Times in 300 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post
12 Scientific Findings That Were Actually Faked

12 Scientific Hoaxes - Business Insider

Yes, science can be faked, depending on the paymaster's requirements.
Jeezus, Rezbi!

Do you really think this article supports your point that research in general is untrustworthy due to a widespread agency problem?

Of the twelve, only three were perpetrated by researchers and only one had a "paymaster" involved.

Why are you grasping?
Pusateri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2013, 05:35 PM   #158
caveat lector,emptor fiet
War Room Member
 
Colin Theriot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Roswell, GA
Posts: 730
Thanks: 160
Thanked 773 Times in 293 Posts
Social Networking View Member's FaceBook Profile  View Member's Twitter Profile  View Member's YouTube Profile
Contact Info
Send a message via Yahoo to Colin Theriot
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Whether or not some science has been faked has no bearing on the scientific validity of any other given subject. That's like saying some people have baked terrible tasting cakes, therefore sometimes a hot dog might also be a cake.

Fair warning: It's possible I'm arguing with you because I have nothing better to do.
Join my free copywriting group on Facebook: http://CultOfCopy.com
Colin Theriot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2013, 06:59 PM   #159
Enlightened Marketer
War Room Member
 
Ron Herman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Las Vegas, USA & Bohol, Manila & Palawan Philippines
Posts: 91
Thanks: 16
Thanked 35 Times in 20 Posts
Social Networking View Member's FaceBook Profile 
Contact Info
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post
Whether or not some science has been faked has no bearing on the scientific validity of any other given subject. That's like saying some people have baked terrible tasting cakes, therefore sometimes a hot dog might also be a cake.
That's a good one, lol

$25,384 In Only 5 Days! - Amazing System Anyone Can Copy - Offline Ninja

Offliners: Join Local Marketing Bootcamp Free. http://www.facebook.com/groups/LocalMarketingBootcamp/
Ron Herman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2013, 03:46 AM   #160
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,990
Thanks: 384
Thanked 404 Times in 306 Posts
Social Networking View Member's Twitter Profile  View Member's YouTube Profile
Contact Info
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pusateri View Post
Jeezus, Rezbi!

Do you really think this article supports your point that research in general is untrustworthy due to a widespread agency problem?

Of the twelve, only three were perpetrated by researchers and only one had a "paymaster" involved.

Why are you grasping?
Actually, now you mention it, that was a response to something else. Not meant for this thread.

What an idiot I am. I-yyam, I-yyam, I-yyam.

Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2013, 11:03 AM   #161
Godfather of Curation
War Room Member
 
Harlan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boca Raton,FL , USA.
Posts: 1,283
Blog Entries: 10
Thanks: 306
Thanked 894 Times in 308 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Sanchez View Post

(and as a random side note: Dave Dobson was the man. He is sorely missed)
How did you know Dave?

Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
http://overnight-copy.com
Get Fit In Four Minuteshttp://just4minutes.com
Learn how to build a Super Site Without SEO http://supersiteformula.com
Harlan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2013, 02:59 PM   #162
Senior Warrior Member
War Room Member
 
Rezbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom.
Posts: 1,990
Thanks: 384
Thanked 404 Times in 306 Posts
Social Networking View Member's Twitter Profile  View Member's YouTube Profile
Contact Info
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Sanchez View Post
(and as a random side note: Dave Dobson was the man. He is sorely missed)
I have one of his courses.

What a voice. Makes Sylvester Stallone sound like a squeaky mouse.

Rezbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 04:25 PM   #163
Warrior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 7
Thanks: 9
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post
NLP is a boondoggle. It's an attempt to quantify rhetorical techniques. Any success you have with it is directly attributable to the blind squirrel axiom.
Gotta Love this!
ferghayden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 05:03 PM   #164
Veteran Copywriter
War Room Member
 
Raydal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Sarasota, FL, USA.
Posts: 4,496
Thanks: 314
Thanked 2,070 Times in 1,030 Posts
Social Networking View Member's Twitter Profile  View Member's YouTube Profile
Contact Info
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post
To take a step back and find the "Cult" marketing that allows "NLP" to thrive:

1. Take a study or discipline that people want to learn or want help with, do a survey of it and pull out some really juicy bits that you know work. ...

2. Create a bunch of acronyms and new words for these working bits and explain a "system" of how they work together. ...

3. Reference the older works, too. ...

4. Market your names for these things heavily, correct people when they use the older names. ...

5. Charge A LOT for "training". Rinse, repeat, get rich, and retire.
I love your definition of re-branding.

-Ray Edwards

Raydal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 03:18 AM   #165
HyperActive Warrior
War Room Member
 
JasonChoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 289
Thanks: 48
Thanked 210 Times in 86 Posts
Social Networking View Member's FaceBook Profile  View Member's YouTube Profile
Contact Info
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

I guess I'm a bit late to this discussion, but as an Master Practitioner of NLP, I agree with the OP. It's always been there. Sadly, there is a lot of people who do not understand how NLP works, which is essentially understand how things work. And in the case of sales copy, the structure of language and the effect it has.

JasonChoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 10:23 AM   #166
Ghostwriter to the Stars
War Room Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NYC, NY
Posts: 144
Thanks: 23
Thanked 29 Times in 22 Posts
Social Networking View Member's FaceBook Profile  View Member's Twitter Profile  View Member's YouTube Profile
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonChoi View Post
I guess I'm a bit late to this discussion, but as an Master Practitioner of NLP, I agree with the OP. It's always been there. Sadly, there is a lot of people who do not understand how NLP works, which is essentially understand how things work. And in the case of sales copy, the structure of language and the effect it has.
I'm studying NLP now and find it interesting. The more I learn, more I find it fascinating.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Harry Husted
http://www.creatingwords.com
With 20+ years’ experience, I can help YOU stop struggling to stand out, with a more dynamic marketing message, SEO, an attention-getting e-book, or a catchy jingle of your own to reel in those prospects.
hhhusted is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2013, 03:12 PM   #167
Ninjapreneur
War Room Member
 
sethczerepak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Beach
Posts: 1,246
Thanks: 285
Thanked 452 Times in 304 Posts
Social Networking View Member's FaceBook Profile 
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by charidemos View Post
What makes me skeptical about NLP is that it's creator, Richard Bandler, is so overweight. I mean if the stuff he teaches work, why not apply them on his physical health? Then I thought he could be sick but he mentioned in an interview that he does not think he is fat. Draw your own conclusion from that.
lol, well friggin' put. The proof is in the pudding...perhaps literally in this case lol

sethczerepak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2013, 05:18 PM   #168
Ghostwriter to the Stars
War Room Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NYC, NY
Posts: 144
Thanks: 23
Thanked 29 Times in 22 Posts
Social Networking View Member's FaceBook Profile  View Member's Twitter Profile  View Member's YouTube Profile
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

I agree with you. If you aren't living proof that your product works, no one will buy it. I won't get involved in buying a product or course, unless the owner is reliable, trustworthy, has impeccable credentials, or is well known. In other words, if the owner hasn't already tried the product to complete satisfaction, I won't bother.

Thanks for the comment Seth and Charidemos.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Harry Husted
http://www.creatingwords.com
With 20+ years’ experience, I can help YOU stop struggling to stand out, with a more dynamic marketing message, SEO, an attention-getting e-book, or a catchy jingle of your own to reel in those prospects.
hhhusted is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2013, 07:47 PM   #169
Everyday I'm Hustlin'
War Room Member
 
Richard Phillip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Texas!
Posts: 38
Thanks: 20
Thanked 46 Times in 26 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by charidemos View Post
What makes me skeptical about NLP is that it's creator, Richard Bandler, is so overweight. I mean if the stuff he teaches work, why not apply them on his physical health? Then I thought he could be sick but he mentioned in an interview that he does not think he is fat. Draw your own conclusion from that.
NLP does not have one creator.

And because he's overweight... hmm.
That's a strange sort of Ad Hominem fallacy. I guess I should judge Steve Jobs' credibility because he dropped out of college.

Bandler and company got results with NLP. Tony Robbins got results. If something works for people, the proof is in the pudding.

Bandler as person? Definitely a controversial character, but that doesn't discredit the results.

R.

Richard Phillip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2013, 08:05 PM   #170
Ghostwriter to the Stars
War Room Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NYC, NY
Posts: 144
Thanks: 23
Thanked 29 Times in 22 Posts
Social Networking View Member's FaceBook Profile  View Member's Twitter Profile  View Member's YouTube Profile
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Richard: I disagree with you. If you were to hire a plumber to work on your pipes, and you went to visit his home or office and found he had lousy plumbing, would you hire him? I know I wouldn't. To be honest, if a person is going to promote something, he must be able to make accurate claims that show the product worked. If the person didn't actually work the product himself, how can he lay claim that it actually works.

NLP does not work, unless there is someone that has plenty of knowledge and experience to use it effectively. How many people do you know that have used NLP perfectly, and benefited by it. I'm not talking about those you read about. I'm talking about people you actually talked to and witnessed it working.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Harry Husted
http://www.creatingwords.com
With 20+ years’ experience, I can help YOU stop struggling to stand out, with a more dynamic marketing message, SEO, an attention-getting e-book, or a catchy jingle of your own to reel in those prospects.
hhhusted is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2013, 12:58 AM   #171
The Cake Is A Lie
War Room Member
 
Daniel Scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Mackay, QLD, Australia
Posts: 2,399
Thanks: 303
Thanked 931 Times in 491 Posts
Contact Info
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Colin's a very insightful guy when it comes to bullshit, and I think he's hit the nail on the head here.

Don't really know the guy, but from being in his "Cult of Copy" I can see he knows social engineering and manufacturing credibility pretty damn well.

When you look at NLP in this light (and most religions, for that matter, but that's another story) it's interesting to say the least.

-Daniel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post
To take a step back and find the "Cult" marketing that allows "NLP" to thrive:

1. Take a study or discipline that people want to learn or want help with, do a survey of it and pull out some really juicy bits that you know work. What will happen is that when people use "your" stuff, it will work. You will get credit.

2. Create a bunch of acronyms and new words for these working bits and explain a "system" of how they work together. If you are the "in" for people coming into the discipline, you control their ability to learn more, because you've given them made-up names for concepts instead of the commonly used ones. They MUST come to you for more because they can't dig deeper without real handles on the subject matter.

3. Reference the older works, too. Claim your work is an expansion and further development of it (even though it's just repeating it with a new name). Name-drop this pedigree for authority. Your reference of the sources you borrowed from legitimizes what you're doing beyond just a re-name. And even if they DO dig deeper into the source works, these are usually academic and dense, so "your" stuff seems like you made it accessible and "for the masses" when really you've simplified by omission, not by adding elegant insight.

4. Market your names for these things heavily, correct people when they use the older names. Whenever people talk about the old works you've co-opted, bring up the new names. "Your" people will defend your work for you because it DOES work for them, and they NEED you. When they encounter the pre-existing working things you teach out in the wild, they'll use YOUR names and give you credit. Even if it pre-dates you, they'll say, "oh this was early before they KNEW what they were REALLY doing!"

5. Charge A LOT for "training". Rinse, repeat, get rich, and retire.

Need profit-pulling copy for your business? Then click here to claim your FREE marketing strategy session...

This Week's Article: How To Develop A Killer Marketing Angle (Even When You've Got Nothing To Work With)
Daniel Scott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 11:24 AM   #172
Top online dietitian
War Room Member
 
Dietriffic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: The UK
Posts: 440
Thanks: 62
Thanked 115 Times in 72 Posts
Social Networking View Member's FaceBook Profile  View Member's Twitter Profile  View Member's YouTube Profile
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

After reading most of the posts here, would it be true to say that NLP advocates have failed to nail down a specific example of NLP in copy?

Something that can be clearly identified as NLP, rather than a persuasion technique which has been used by gifted salesmen for years before the NLP craze?

Perhaps I missed it.

Or perhaps concrete examples are like the tooth fairy? Believed to exist by some, but never proven?

Just wondering.

— Melanie (RD)

Weight loss/fitness marketers earn 75% per sale with... The Fat Reversal Formula
Join me: Twitter and Facebook
Dietriffic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2013, 09:20 PM   #173
DavidAllenNeron.com
Registered Member
War Room Member
 
DavidAllenNeron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 161
Thanks: 37
Thanked 39 Times in 25 Posts
Social Networking View Member's FaceBook Profile  View Member's Twitter Profile  View Member's YouTube Profile
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote from Richard Bandler:
Quote:
If you ever find yourself defending NLP, I want you feel a giant SLAP up side the head.
I've studied NLP quite in depth for about 12 years now.

I also noticed a lot of people learned NLP or even learned about NLP from people who weren't even around when it didn't even have a name at the University of California, Santa Cruz.

and it actually started when Bandler got a job transcribing video of gestalt therapist Fritz Perls performing gestalt therapy live.

Then he (Bandler) ended up meeting Virginia Satir (a family therapist) ...

Milton & Bandler DID NOT get along..

and one thing I don't think I noticed mentioned anywhere here yet is ......

Above All Else NLP is an attitude.
Quote:
Attitude (psychology), a person's perspective toward a specified target and way of saying and doing things

DavidAllenNeron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2013, 09:39 PM   #174
DavidAllenNeron.com
Registered Member
War Room Member
 
DavidAllenNeron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 161
Thanks: 37
Thanked 39 Times in 25 Posts
Social Networking View Member's FaceBook Profile  View Member's Twitter Profile  View Member's YouTube Profile
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dietriffic View Post
After reading most of the posts here, would it be true to say that NLP advocates have failed to nail down a specific example of NLP in copy?

Something that can be clearly identified as NLP, rather than a persuasion technique which has been used by gifted salesmen for years before the NLP craze?

Perhaps I missed it.

Or perhaps concrete examples are like the tooth fairy? Believed to exist by some, but never proven?

Just wondering.
You definitely won't find NLP in any copy because NLP isn't a thing.

A better way to frame your question would be;
is there any evidence for exclusive NLP patterns or techniques in copy.

and my answer would be a resounding NO.
Because NLP by nature is a collaboration of techniques, patterns and observations learned by modeling the people who performed those techniques and patterns proficiently.

Now on the other hand; I think people are missing the point of NLP and that was to put all of that information into a system as well as to be able to systematically collect that information... or rather you could think of NLP as a toolbox ... by itself is just an empty toolbox, which NLP was when it was in it's infancy but now the toolbox is full of useful techniques and patterns.

The one thing I've learned is that it isn't hard to come up with your own NLP patterns and techniques by observing the world around you.

DavidAllenNeron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2013, 12:14 AM   #175
Active Warrior
War Room Member
 
George Hutton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 72
Thanks: 38
Thanked 28 Times in 21 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post
And, as Wyatt Woodsmall said, “There’s nothing new in NLP. But what gives it the power is the way things were combined together into a system.”

How can anyone discredit something that has always existed?

It’s no different to using persuasive words and sentences in copywriting.

Is NLP Utter Hogwash? | Persuade With NLP
NLP has a lot of stuff in it, but there are three basic areas that people are generally attracted to.

One is for persuasion reasons. Saying that it's "nothing more" than persuasive words and sentences" is absolutely correct.

After all, NLP, as far as a model for persuasive language (written and spoken), wasn't created in a laboratory.

It was copied, reverse engineered from folks like Erickson and others who were just naturally good at it.

Like any other skill, some people are naturally good at covert persuasion, and others aren't. NLP, when it comes to persuasive language, merely takes apart the specific language patterns, and shows structurally, WHY they are so persuasive.

Now, I imagine that many copywriters who have spent years and thousands of dollars learning from "gurus" are loathe to think there is some kind of "magical system" out there that short cuts the process.

After all, in order to become really good with NLP, you've got to put your (and your guru's) ego aside and just focus on learning tools that work.

You might want to check Keven Hogan's Book, Covert Persuasion (or something) where he shows that even St. Paul, in his many letters, used techniques that are now considered part of NLP (e.g. pacing and leading).

Free tools to easily and naturally program your mind for automatic success.
George Hutton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2013, 02:05 AM   #176
Words Rule the World
War Room Member
 
Pusateri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: South Texas Coast
Posts: 585
Thanks: 707
Thanked 667 Times in 300 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Hutton View Post
NLP, when it comes to persuasive language, merely takes apart the specific language patterns, and shows structurally, WHY they are so persuasive
How is this different than what rhetoricians have done since ancient times?
Pusateri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2013, 07:00 AM   #177
Advanced Warrior
War Room Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 939
Thanks: 1,145
Thanked 293 Times in 208 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pusateri View Post
How is this different than what rhetoricians have done since ancient times?
Why does it matter?

Marvin
Marvin Johnston is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2013, 11:22 AM   #178
Advanced Warrior
War Room Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 558
Thanks: 525
Thanked 356 Times in 217 Posts
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlan View Post
Yes, always turn to Wikipedia for the truth.
That's the funniest thing I've ever read.

By the way, I'm still waiting on yours and Carlton's Incongruent Juxtaposition Presupposition Generator. I'm never gunna stop buggin' you about it either.
David Maschke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2013, 01:25 AM   #179
DavidAllenNeron.com
Registered Member
War Room Member
 
DavidAllenNeron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 161
Thanks: 37
Thanked 39 Times in 25 Posts
Social Networking View Member's FaceBook Profile  View Member's Twitter Profile  View Member's YouTube Profile
Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

I think information gathering is an important function in any successful business, because if you can't gather information on how people view your products/services (properly) then you're lost...
A lot of people give Richard Bandler a hard time, and I disagree with those people.
Even in this ONE video there is tons of information that if you're creative enough can translate into your business. Especially about information gathering, it is SOOOOO helpful to ask for the right info on your opt-in forms that allows you a window into your prospects mind. You need to gather information that people are more then happy to answer, yet at the same time is valuable information.

1989 NLP Change Work - Part 1 - YouTube

and if you LISTEN long enough, you'll hear him explain a lot of stuff that everyone's been talking about.

I prefer to hear tings from the horses mouth me'self :P

DavidAllenNeron is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  WarriorForum - Internet Marketing Forums > The Warrior Forum > The Copywriting Forum

Bookmarks

Tags
hogwash, nlp, utter

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:45 AM.