Why Not to Charge $197 for your sales copy... Or pay it, either.

[Dean Dhuli]

Originally Posted by senve

i feel that the whole point of this thread, started by copywriters, is to somehow install some kind of monopol in rising up the prices that copywriters ask for the sales letter...

that copywriters should be so extremely very big paid...

and only almost copywriters posting here... no surprise...

senve, I think you misunderstood.

See, I don't have any kind of problem with copywriters who charge less...
and I also don't mind people hiring them.

In fact, I even "redirect" some of my prospects (whose budget doesn't
come up to my range) to other good copywriters who charge less.

One of the main reasons copywriters must charge a decent fee
is that they won't have to write 15-20 letters a month to make ends meet
and hence can do justice to every project they take up.

I think you'll agree that writing copy is not easy.

So charging a bit higher will help the copywriter enjoy his task, enabling
him to write better copy - copy that converts better and makes more money for YOU.


- Dean

[David Raybould]

Senve-

That's the second time I've seen you
hint at the idea that copywriters should
be paid less than we are.

How much do you think we should get?

I'm not trying to be difficult or start an
argument. I genuinely couldn't care
less how much other writers charge,
which is why I haven't gotten involved
in the rest of this thread...

Why do you think we should get paid
less than we do?

Please enlighten me.

-David Raybould

[Barry Walls]

Theres one thing that really puzzles me about copywriters and I still haven't got to the bottom of it.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here...I'm genuinely curious...

Your prices and results are often the source of much tension...

It seems to me the you are rational, profit maximising entrepreneurs...so...

You know how to write copy, you know a good product when you see it, you understand the marketing, traffic generation and everything to do with launches...

So...

Why are you selling your services rather than using them for your own products?

Considering that you are rational, profit maximising entrepreneurs, "working preferences" doesn't wash as an argument.

Can someone please enlighten me as to which part of the puzzle you are missing that will pull in millions a year from your own products?

What is stopping you having a stable of your own products, WITH EQUITY, which you can sell at will?

Why are you still (admittedly highly paid) wage slaves running around a hamster wheel?

I genuinely don't get it.

All the best

Barry

[David Raybould]

Hi Barry.

Some of us do both.

But as for those that don't I've no
idea why not.

I guess if you get into it, it may be
the same reason why in the IM world
you get some guys who are product
owners, and some that are affiliates.

Other than that it's anybody's guess.

-David Raybould

[Dean Dhuli]

Why are you selling your services rather than using them for your own products?

IMHO, why many copywriters do this is because writing for different products
and a wide range of niches can be really exciting.

Writing for clients has helped me learn a lot of new things which I otherwise
would not have known.

Secondly, not all people enjoy creating products. In that case it's a lot easier
to write for someone else's product instead of having to create a product
and then write copy for it.

Finally, writing copy is an easier and faster way to get paid.

When you write copy for established clients and companies they already have
a marketing system in place, so you don't have to deal with the traffic
generation, etc.


Hope this clears it up a bit,


Regards,

Dean.

[Barry Walls]

Originally Posted by Dean Dhuli

IMHO, why many copywriters do this is because writing for different products
and a wide range of niches can be really exciting.

Writing for clients has helped me learn a lot of new things which I otherwise
would not have known.

Secondly, not all people enjoy creating products. In that case it's a lot easier
to write for someone else's product instead of having to create a product
and then write copy for it.

Finally, writing copy is an easier and faster way to get paid.

When you write copy for established clients and companies they already have
a marketing system in place, so you don't have to deal with the traffic
generation, etc.


Hope this clears it up a bit,


Regards,

Dean.

This is the answer I was expecting...I honestly struggle to believe this. It just doesn't make sense.

David Raybould's answer is much more realistic, transparent, honest and believable.

A copywriter with his own products is a much safer bet. Why not create a simple product you can show to clients? Do you think you would be able to increase your fees once you show your own products converting at massive%?

It doesnt make sense NOT to do this IMO.

If you're going to hire a copywriter, ask to see THEIR products and a screen shot of their analytics account before you hand over a dime.

If they can't get their own pages to convert at X%....what chance do you have to that they'll get yours to convert? This is easily the best way to sort the wheat from the chaff...IMHO.

"What? You don't have your own products? You don't use analytics...what time can I call you tomorrow about your $10,000 fee".

Click.

All the best

Barry

[Loren Woirhaye]

Originally Posted by bigjock

Theres one thing that really puzzles me about copywriters and I still haven't got to the bottom of it.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here...I'm genuinely curious...

Your prices and results are often the source of much tension...

It seems to me the you are rational, profit maximising entrepreneurs...so...

You know how to write copy, you know a good product when you see it, you understand the marketing, traffic generation and everything to do with launches...

So...

Why are you selling your services rather than using them for your own products?

Considering that you are rational, profit maximising entrepreneurs, "working preferences" doesn't wash as an argument.

Can someone please enlighten me as to which part of the puzzle you are missing that will pull in millions a year from your own products?

What is stopping you having a stable of your own products, WITH EQUITY, which you can sell at will?

Why are you still (admittedly highly paid) wage slaves running around a hamster wheel?

I genuinely don't get it.

All the best

Barry

Because running a business has 3 components - and if you want to have
no real employees (or the hassles of having them) you need to make
compromises.

They are:

1. Product
2. Customer service
3. Marketing

Coming from a hard-goods "real business" background I drove myself
to exhaustion trying to juggle all 3 simultaneously. For business owners
who already have their hands full making sure they can deliver a
competitive product and keep their customers happy spending the
TIME to become expert enough at marketing and copywriting subtleties
is often just too much to ask. Many business owners who understand
this reality realize they COULD in fact become marketing/copy experts
but would have to either delegate the other aspects of their businesses
(and some do) or work insane hours and miss-out on being with their
families and even run their health down.

Do you see why there is a market for good copywriters now?

Can you see why choosing to write copy as a freelance provider
is not only possibly lucrative, but a business decision arrived at
based on the lifestyle we want?

For a writer, doing commercial writing (which is what copywriting is)
is generally more lucrative than writing fiction or journalism... so
for folks who are talented at or just like the working life of a writer
freelancing in copy can be a good option.

Of course you have to run it like a real business, and not all copywriters
are brilliant at product creation for the internet - that doesn't mean
we aren't writing books of our own or working on long-term things
on the side.

I don't perceive myself as having the time or interest to change directions
to reposition myself as a financial expert, a weight-loss expert, or go
to medical school so I can put on a labcoat and say I'm "Dr. Woirhaye"
to sell vitamins - but here's a tip: those are the big ones, and the
big-shots in all those mega-niches hire copywriters and in some cases
the copywriters themselves are earning millions... so freelancing in itself
can turn into a million-dollar business, without creating your own products
even.

[Barry Walls]

Originally Posted by Loren Woirhaye

Because running a business has 3 components - and if you want to have
no real employees (or the hassles of having them) you need to make
compromises.

They are:

1. Product
2. Customer service
3. Marketing

Coming from a hard-goods "real business" background I drove myself
to exhaustion trying to juggle all 3 simultaneously. For business owners
who already have their hands full making sure they can deliver a
competitive product and keep their customers happy spending the
TIME to become expert enough at marketing and copywriting subtleties
is often just too much to ask. Many business owners who understand
this reality realize they COULD in fact become marketing/copy experts
but would have to either delegate the other aspects of their businesses
(and some do) or work insane hours and miss-out on being with their
families and even run their health down.

Do you see why there is a market for good copywriters now?

Can you see why choosing to write copy as a freelance provider
is not only possibly lucrative, but a business decision arrived at
based on the lifestyle we want?

For a writer, doing commercial writing (which is what copywriting is)
is generally more lucrative than writing fiction or journalism... so
for folks who are talented at or just like the working life of a writer
freelancing in copy can be a good option.

Of course you have to run it like a real business, and not all copywriters
are brilliant at product creation for the internet - that doesn't mean
we aren't writing books of our own or working on long-term things
on the side.

I don't perceive myself as having the time or interest to change directions
to reposition myself as a financial expert, a weight-loss expert, or go
to medical school so I can put on a labcoat and say I'm "Dr. Woirhaye"
to sell vitamins - but here's a tip: those are the big ones, and the
big-shots in all those mega-niches hire copywriters and in some cases
the copywriters themselves are earning millions... so freelancing in itself
can turn into a million-dollar business, without creating your own products
even.

I hear what you're saying...I still think that someone who is looking to hire a copywriter could lessen their own risk by narrowing their search to include only copywriters who do for themselves what they claim to be able to do for others?

Do you see why?

All the best

Barry

Edit:

Also Loren...I enjoy reading your posts...and am a little surprised that an issue personal expertise is holding you back. Infact...I'm flabbergasted to hear you say it.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Originally Posted by bigjock

I hear what you're saying...I still think that someone who is looking to hire a copywriter could lessen their own risk by narrowing their search to include only copywriters who do for themselves what they claim to be able to do for others?

Do you see why?

All the best

Barry

Edit:

Also Loren...I enjoy reading your posts...and am a little surprised that an issue personal expertise is holding you back. Infact...I'm flabbergasted to hear you say it.

It's an issue of time and priorities, I think - other Warriors
may be way more effective than I am at managing their
own time and projects... I'm something of a turtle in that
I'm methodical and slow to get prepared but I do get
stuff together eventually.

Too much a perfectionist in some ways I guess - definitely
not the "throw some mud on the wall and see what sticks"
kind of guy. I'm also a control freak so I'm averse to not
having my hands all over anything I put out there... something
I do need to come into greater balance with to grow
further - but all in good time.

In fact you may see me rolling-out some alternative health
stuff at some point and thinking "where does this guy
get this crazy stuff?" ___ ultimately I would personally
rather not work with clients at all but I am learning from
it and it does finance things I want to do and help with
goals I have that have nothing to do with making money.

[Barry Walls]

Originally Posted by Loren Woirhaye

It's an issue of time and priorities, I think - other Warriors
may be way more effective than I am at managing their
own time and projects... I'm something of a turtle in that
I'm methodical and slow to get prepared but I do get
stuff together eventually.

Too much a perfectionist in some ways I guess - definitely
not the "throw some mud on the wall and see what sticks"
kind of guy. I'm also a control freak so I'm averse to not
having my hands all over anything I put out there... something
I do need to come into greater balance with to grow
further - but all in good time.

Although in many respects, he was an ignorant douche, (or worse) when FDR said "there is nothing to fear but fear itself", it was one of the most succinct, insightful, all encompassing, most immediately applicable observations about the human condition that has ever been made IMO. (written by a copywriter don't you know!...if you have their name, I'd love to know it).

Perfectionism is thinly disguised fear. It is to be feared and rooted out like the traitor it is. It repeatedly stabs you in the back while it smiles in your face.

If you were my brother, I would say this to you.

Identify the root fear, deal with it and cut it loose once and for all. Don't delay.

I'd love to see your alternative health product when you bring it out. I'm into that.

Remember me.

All the best

Barry

Edit: Loren...I asked which piece of the puzzle was missing....and you seem to have answered that question in a personal way. It is your perfectionism/need for control and your (current) lack of project management skills which are holding you back. Is that a fair comment?

[BrandonLee]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

Honestly, Cherilyn nailed it. Respect yourself enough to not work for peanuts.

In the end it also comes down to respecting yourself AND YOUR CLIENT, and that's a pretty large problem in our world today. Most people just don't give a damn, so they will give you a piece of crap product and really not care, after all they got paid.

That said if your in a desperate situation you might have to do desperate things. That can happen to the best of us, and I know this for first hand experience. If you have to keep working for bargin basement prices though you have to start to wonder if your worth hiring in the first place, and if you conclude that your not, then respect other people enough to NOT STEAL FROM THEM by giving them a crappy product or service.

Brandon

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

Brandon - you captured the original sentiment of my post very clearly. Thank you!

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by bigjock

Theres one thing that really puzzles me about copywriters and I still haven't got to the bottom of it.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here...I'm genuinely curious...

Your prices and results are often the source of much tension...

It seems to me the you are rational, profit maximising entrepreneurs...so...

You know how to write copy, you know a good product when you see it, you understand the marketing, traffic generation and everything to do with launches...

So...

Why are you selling your services rather than using them for your own products?

Considering that you are rational, profit maximising entrepreneurs, "working preferences" doesn't wash as an argument.

Can someone please enlighten me as to which part of the puzzle you are missing that will pull in millions a year from your own products?

What is stopping you having a stable of your own products, WITH EQUITY, which you can sell at will?

Why are you still (admittedly highly paid) wage slaves running around a hamster wheel?

I genuinely don't get it.

All the best

Barry

Barry,

Writing a piece of copy is, say, 40 hours work.

For argument's sake, let's say you get $4000 for that copy - $100 an hour.

Creating a product, driving traffic, setting up a marketing funnel - all these things are very different skills. Just because you can write great copy doesn't mean you can sell your own product (though, admittedly, anyone can learn these skills).

Sure, most of us do both, but writing copy for others is appealing for a lot of reasons.

One, we focus on doing the bit we genuinely enjoy - not all the other crap that goes with it. Sure, you can outsource, but it's SO DAMN HARD to find someone who will do a good job... and even then monitoring that stuff takes a LOT of time.

Second, you can jump around a lot between different niches. You're always creating a new USP, angle, hook... whatever. In a nutshell, it's FUN, whereas personally I find a lot of other parts of marketing my own stuff (writing articles, viewing stats, promoting my affiliate offers, getting affiliates, playing with Adwords, writing emails... etc etc) is not.

Thirdly, most high-paid copywriters work on royalties as well. Someone like Michel Fortin gets probably around $50k for a letter plus a percentage of sales... without having to do anything except write the letter.

The poor understanding that you seem to have is that we simply create a "job" for ourselves.

Understand that no matter what you do in IM, it takes work. That work generates income. Now, if you're talking about RESIDUAL income as opposed to "regular" income, then I can kind of see where you're coming from. But the "big money" is in huge launches... that take a LOT of work to set up. Sure, you can generate money non-stop from a lot of products, but it's not nearly as impressive as the craploads people make from launches.

We are in business, just like anyone else, and it's our own business. Just because it's a service-based business doesn't mean it's a bad idea. There are pros and cons for both sides, but ultimately, here's the crux of it:

You have to do something that makes you happy.

That's why there are so many different methods of making money in this game - everyone enjoys a different way. It's not just about the money - it's about the lifestyle. And who wants to work their butts off in a job they hate?

That's why most of us got into IM in the first place.

-Dan

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by bigjock

This is the answer I was expecting...I honestly struggle to believe this. It just doesn't make sense.

David Raybould's answer is much more realistic, transparent, honest and believable.

A copywriter with his own products is a much safer bet. Why not create a simple product you can show to clients? Do you think you would be able to increase your fees once you show your own products converting at massive%?

It doesnt make sense NOT to do this IMO.

If you're going to hire a copywriter, ask to see THEIR products and a screen shot of their analytics account before you hand over a dime.

If they can't get their own pages to convert at X%....what chance do you have to that they'll get yours to convert? This is easily the best way to sort the wheat from the chaff...IMHO.

"What? You don't have your own products? You don't use analytics...what time can I call you tomorrow about your $10,000 fee".

Click.

All the best

Barry

With that line of thinking you wouldn't be hiring most of the biggest name copywriters -- online or offline.

Here's a great example: A List copywriter Doug D'Anna rarely sends out an ezine... he's told me himself that he has a PILE of control pieces that need copy written for his own web store but he doesn't have time. He's booked with client projects for the next YEAR. And at $50K plus royalties, do you understand why he's not in a rush to create his own products? That's not counting the time he needs to put in as a husband and parent either.

David Garfinkel is a well-known copywriter. He's even more known as a master teacher of copywriter and quite expensive to be mentored by as well. Last time I heard, it was over $20K for training with him. Other copywriting gurus like John Carlton frequently ask David to teach at their seminars too. I'm sure he gets some serious cash for his time at those seminars as well.

He RARELY creates new products and the ones I know of are usually copywriting related which are $1K or more. Again, with the fees he's pulling down, he doesn't need to:

1) Identify a new niche to go over
2) Establish an expert status in that niche
3) Hire a ghostwriter or study the niche well enough to create credible products.
4) Worry about driving traffic to his own sales page
5) Worry about customer service and/or tech support
6) Worry about product fulfillment
7) Figure out what software to use to run an affiliate program... and who is going to admin the program.
8) Set up and manage his PPC campaigns... or analytics for that matter.
9) Every other info product task that I neglected to mention.

As Daniel said, many of the copywriters with strong track records spend 40 hours or more on a project. That's outside of family commitments too.

I'm fully booked with client projects for the next 2-3 months. If I'm lucky, I'll get 4 info products of my own launched this year -- maybe.

I could throw out a bunch of well-known copywriters and their packed schedules but I think you see my point.

I've done my 110 hour work weeks for many years. Way too many in fact.

If I wanted to continue to work that hard, I wouldn't have become an info product marketer and copywriter.

Hope that helps,

Mike

[bobbly]

I am reminded of John Ruskin's quote, which is roughly: "There is always someone who can do the job worse and be a little cheaper to hire. And people who buy on price alone are this person's lawful prey."

[bobbly]

Many of the top copywriters -- charging $10,000 or more per later -- don't have (or at one time in their careers did not have) their own products. These writers, guys like Herschell Lewis and David Deutsch, regularly produce record-breaking controls for Boardroom, Prentice Hall, and other big direct marketers. They simply prefer copywriting to running a business. Not sure what you don't get about that. If a copywriter has a stable of controls running, why do you care that they are for other people's products and not the writer's own?

[Matt Jutras]

Herschell Gordon Lewis.

Twenty years ago, as a teenage horror nerd...I was a fan of his movies.

And now as an "adult", I'm a fan of his copywriting.

Life is strange.

[Barry Walls]

Originally Posted by bobbly

Many of the top copywriters -- charging $10,000 or more per later -- don't have (or at one time in their careers did not have) their own products.

I just decided to be a top copywriter. Today, I don't have my own product, therefore I fit into your statement.

How about this for a statement...

"The majority of the top 20% of copywriters do have their own products and the majority of the the bottom 20% don't."

Unfortunately, it's the bottom 20% who cause all the aggro in places like this.

All the best

Barry

[Barry Walls]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

With that line of thinking you wouldn't be hiring most of the biggest name copywriters -- online or offline.

Here's a great example: A List copywriter Doug D'Anna rarely sends out an ezine... he's told me himself that he has a PILE of control pieces that need copy written for his own web store but he doesn't have time. He's booked with client projects for the next YEAR. And at $50K plus royalties, do you understand why he's not in a rush to create his own products? That's not counting the time he needs to put in as a husband and parent either.

David Garfinkel is a well-known copywriter. He's even more known as a master teacher of copywriter and quite expensive to be mentored by as well. Last time I heard, it was over $20K for training with him. Other copywriting gurus like John Carlton frequently ask David to teach at their seminars too. I'm sure he gets some serious cash for his time at those seminars as well.

He RARELY creates new products and the ones I know of are usually copywriting related which are $1K or more. Again, with the fees he's pulling down, he doesn't need to:

1) Identify a new niche to go over
2) Establish an expert status in that niche
3) Hire a ghostwriter or study the niche well enough to create credible products.
4) Worry about driving traffic to his own sales page
5) Worry about customer service and/or tech support
6) Worry about product fulfillment
7) Figure out what software to use to run an affiliate program... and who is going to admin the program.
8) Set up and manage his PPC campaigns... or analytics for that matter.
9) Every other info product task that I neglected to mention.

As Daniel said, many of the copywriters with strong track records spend 40 hours or more on a project. That's outside of family commitments too.

I'm fully booked with client projects for the next 2-3 months. If I'm lucky, I'll get 4 info products of my own launched this year -- maybe.

I could throw out a bunch of well-known copywriters and their packed schedules but I think you see my point.

Mike

I don't see your point. You're making my point.

These top guys have products. You have your own products too.

What is your point?

All the best

Barry

EDIT: Daniel, you seem to be saying that you aren't capable of putting together product launches for yourself, so you don't enjoy the huge profits you know they bring? The reason for this is because it is too much work and you lack skills to pull it off/hire good people.

This is the piece of the puzzle you're missing. Is that a fair comment?

[Daniel Scott]

Barry,

All I'm getting at is that there are multiple ways to run a business... your way is not the "right" way.

It's not just strictly a monetary proposition. If it was, this would be a simple mathematical calculation... but it's not. It's also about what you feel comfortable doing, what you enjoy doing, etc etc etc.

Regarding my skills, I do have some of my own products. One thing I have learned is it's much easier to write copy for others than it is for yourself, as you're a step removed when you write for others - you approach it from a fresher perspective. That may just be my experience though.

Having said that, copywriting is my "forte"... I can do the other stuff but I'm no "master" at it.

Now, for launches, you've gotta get JVs. And they're not always easy to get, especially if it's a new product, and you have no established track record in that niche. Heck, some niches just aren't as incestuous as IM, so you have to work your butt off for each and every launch partner you get (and hope that they know what they're doing).

In some niches I'd be amazed if there was more than 3 people who knew what they were doing enough to bring in serious profits.

Sure, creating your own products can make you more money. It's also more work, and, more importantly, it's a different kettle of fish - one you may not enjoy nearly as much as just writing copy.

I don't understand why this is so hard for you to grasp. Not everyone WANTS to have the hassle of creating their own stuff... some people just like to be a high-paid copywriter for hire.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

-Dan

[Barry Walls]

It's not hard to grasp at all...I talked about "working preferences" in my first post.

I just don't find it convincing...for rational entrepreneurs. Some copywriters may be irrational or generally poor business people...no problem. Theres no more reason why all writers should be outstanding business people or logical profit maximizers that there is for why plumbers should be.

You have answered the question and clearly highlighted the skills/disposition you lack to do your own products.

Still...I beleive having your own products is pretty smart. Proof/walking the walk/seeing the big picture.

There are still very strong arguments for removing non product owners from your hiring circle...EDIT...and a lack of very strong arguments for including non product owners in your hiring circle...other than price....which should be MUCH less.

You don't work to maximize your profit, you work because you enjoy it and its what you want to do. The lower earn rate you get becuase of this shouldn't bother you...so its Ok....yes?

Its ok...but its not optimal...but you're ok with earning much less than you could with a little extra effort.

As you say, there are many ways to run a business.

All the best

Barry

[Kyle Tully]

Originally Posted by bigjock

It seems to me the you are rational, profit maximising entrepreneurs...so...

You know how to write copy, you know a good product when you see it, you understand the marketing, traffic generation and everything to do with launches...

So...

Why are you selling your services rather than using them for your own products?

Barry I think you've made two crucial errors here.

1. Many copywriters do NOT have an entrepreneurial mindset.

They're just like top salespeople who appear to be able to "write their own" ticket yet still work for someone else.

Copywriting is salesmanship in print, not entrepreneurship.

"Working preferences" might sound like a silly argument to you and me, because we are entrepreneurs, but for someone who has always worked a job and doesn't see themselves as a "business owner" it's a valid argument.

(That's also the reason most copywriters are flat broke -- they simply don't know how to run a copywriting business!)

2. Many copywriters do NOT know much about traffic generation, product creation, or anything to do with launches.

All of those are different skills that must be learned.

Now, that said...

The best copywriters do tend to be both entrepreneurial and have a wider set of marketing skills.

(e.g. Makepeace, Bencivenga, Halbert, Carlton and Tully all have their own products )

And of course, because they have their own products and revenue-generating businesses besides their client work, and because they have a wider range of skills, they are more valuable to a business owner and can command premium copywriting fees.

[Scott Murdaugh]

I'll add my .02.

I've owned (and still own) products in all kinds of niches over the last few years.

I've got at least 12 products on the plate right now that I want (make that NEED) to be working on... Because I'm confident they'll be winners and make me more money than my standard copywriting fees... If you're looking at a "per letter'" basis.

BUT... I HATE writing products... And copywriting is something I'm fascinated with. I seriously get a kick... a rush, out of looking at a clients project and business model, and figuring out how I can make them more money.

A client approaches me with a very cool product that I have a lot of ideas for. They're offering $x amount upfront... I get excited about getting this product sold.

With my own projects, there's no deadline, and no money upfront... More profitable long term, yes...

But there's a whole other can of worms... Ad buys, JV's, customer service... Outsourcing if you can find the talent to meet your standards for your product.

For me, right now, my products take a backseat to client projects... And that's a personal choice.

I could definitely make more money by focusing on my projects and long term residual income.

At the same time, when a client has cash in hand... And I'm getting to do the job I love more than any other when it comes to marketing, which is copywriting, it's a win/win.

I've focused more on client projects than my own over the last few months because, to be honest, it's fun for me.

I love writing copy for other people. With my own products I'm worried about every last detail... I want people to get something AMAZING for their money. And that's tough to outsource, so that leaves me stuck doing the product creation part too.

I'm a "temporary copywriter" though...

Over the next year I'm devoting at least 50% of my time, probably much more, to my own publishing company. (Right now my income from copywriting and my own products is right at 50/50.)

And once that's accomplished, I doubt I'll do any copywriting or consulting. When/If I do, it'll be based on fees that make it worth my time.

Your argument is a good one... "If your so great, why don't you work for yourself?"

A lot of us are... When you understand business and emotional direct response it just makes sense.

So when you find a Vin Montello or a David Raybould or a Loren or a Mike or ANY copywriter who has proven results and are willing to work with you, consider yourself lucky.

Because these guys/girls have an extremely rare talent... A talent that converts traffic into paying customers.

And for whatever reason, they prefer to offer that talent as a service... And it still makes them money.

I make money when I write copy, and my clients make money. It's win/win.

But I'm shifting my business model to around 90% passive income on personal projects, with about 10% copywriting/consulting on the side.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that at least half of the world's highest paid copywriters make the majority of their income as marketers, not freelancers... And if you can hire them it's going to cost you big time.

And my biggest tip for "wannabe" copywriters would be to go create a product, sell it, and then PROVE to your potential clients that you're capable of selling their product as well.

There you go... A super long post about why you're exactly right, you should look into hiring a copywriter who markets their own products.

It's not always going to be easy though... Look at say Yanik Silver... Started out as a copywriter and now he's a superstar... Good luck hiring him without an insane budget.

Another example, Vin Montello, from this forum... I've researched that guy to death, I know some of the biggest letters he's written.

The only products I've seen him offer are service oriented... But he's a millionaire maker.

Take Billy Mays as another example... The guy didn't invent the "Awesome Auger" or anything else I know of, but he can sell the **** out of them.

Copywriting is salesmanship in print. Copywriters (Real copywriters) know how to sell... And we make people absurd amounts of money, and in return make pretty decent money ourselves.

It's not unlike a regular sales person... "Show me a product I can sell, I'll sell it, you pay me."

You don't necessarily need to find a copywriter selling their own products, they may be more interested in selling themselves... And if they're good they can show a history of proven results.

Your posts really boil down to "Why don't you use your marketing magic on your own products"...

And that's a great question... Here's the answer.

For some of us, we have a passion for copywriting... And that's our product. It's a service oriented business, and it pays well. There's nothing wrong with that.

Should you look for a copywriter who's sold their own products? Not necessarily.

Should you look for a copywriter with a proven track record? Definitely.

Hope that gives you some insight from our perspective.

Thanks,

-Scott

[Barry Walls]

to illustrate this...

If I was hiring a copywriter, and one provided proof of his own high converting products and launches and asked me for $5000 for a fee...a writer without this proof would have to bid a HUGE amount lower to give me a tough decision. Maybe $1000. If he bid $2,000, Id go with the $5,000 writer every time.

The reason is ....do I really want to hire someone who knowingly puts themselves in this sort of competitive position? If they aren't rational in their own business...can I expect them to be rational in mine?

[Barry Walls]

Originally Posted by Kyle Tully

Barry I think you've made two crucial errors here.

1. Many copywriters do NOT have an entrepreneurial mindset.

They're just like top salespeople who appear to be able to "write their own" ticket yet still work for someone else.

Copywriting is salesmanship in print, not entrepreneurship.

"Working preferences" might sound like a silly argument to you and me, because we are entrepreneurs, but for someone who has always worked a job and doesn't see themselves as a "business owner" it's a valid argument.

(That's also the reason most copywriters are flat broke -- they simply don't know how to run a copywriting business!)

2. Many copywriters do NOT know much about traffic generation, product creation, or anything to do with launches.

All of those are different skills that must be learned.

Now, that said...

The best copywriters do tend to be both entrepreneurial and have a wider set of marketing skills.

(e.g. Makepeace, Bencivenga, Halbert, Carlton and Tully all have their own products )

And of course, because they have their own products and revenue-generating businesses besides their client work, and because they have a wider range of skills, they are more valuable to a business owner and can command premium copywriting fees.

You've hit the nail on the head....I don't get the mindset of not learning the skills to make more money.

I don't want to hire some guy with beer mats in his shoes who is telling me how he can make me more money.

Tully eh? Up there with the big boys.

All the best

Barry

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by bigjock

It's not hard to grasp at all...I talked about "working preferences" in my first post.

I just don't find it convincing...for rational entrepreneurs. Some copywriters may be irrational or generally poor business people...no problem. Theres no more reason why all writers should be outstanding business people or logical profit maximizers that there is for why plumbers should be.

You have answered the question and clearly highlighted the skills/disposition you lack to do your own products.

Still...I beleive having your own products is pretty smart. Proof/walking the walk/seeing the big picture.

There are still very strong arguments for removing non product owners from your hiring circle...EDIT...and a lack of very strong arguments for including non product owners in your hiring circle...other than price....which should be MUCH less.

You don't work to maximize your profit, you work because you enjoy it and its what you want to do. The lower earn rate you get becuase of this shouldn't bother you...so its Ok....yes?

Its ok...but its not optimal...but you're ok with earning much less than you could with a little extra effort.

As you say, there are many ways to run a business.

All the best

Barry

First of all, I HAVE my own products, and to be honest I'm getting sick of the bull**** condescending attitude you have.

I'll say this one more time:

YOUR WAY IS NOT THE "RIGHT" WAY!

Secondly... as others have mentioned... many copywriters don't have their own products.

If I want proof they can write letters that convert, I can ask them for that... doesn't mean that they have to have their own products.

I don't give a crap if my hairdresser cuts her own hair... but I want her to be able to do mine.

Let's take Vin Montello as an example. As far as I know, he doesn't have his own products. Yet he routinely gets $13k+ per letter and has a backlog of clients... because he's good at what he does.

If you really want to get into a pissing contest about whether being a copywriter is better or worse than being an infoproduct creator, then let us know what YOU make... I am willing to bet that most copywriters on this forum would trounce it... maybe that will give you some humility, since money seems to be the only thing you're worried about.

But hey, while we're on the subject, let's make sure everyone understands that money is the only driving factor in life. I'm going to go down to my local hospital and tell all the nurses they should be doctors. It pays better. So what if you have to work longer hours, harder, are under a lot more pressure, and need a completely different set of skills? Screw it!

I'm going to tell my mechanic he should have been a lawyer because the pay's better. Sure, he may enjoy what he does and have a good lifestyle, but let's face it, he could be earning a lot more - he's an idiot!

If you think being a "copywriter" is a bad idea, then great, don't do it.

Just drop the attitude that you know better than the copywriters on this forum, some of whom are the most brilliant marketers on this planet... because I'd bet anything you don't.

-Dan

[Barry Walls]

First, take the sand out of your vagina and calm down.

I'm not talking about working as a copywriter, I'm talking about hiring one.

[Daniel Scott]

In your first post in this thread, you were talking about why a copywriter wouldn't have his own products. Lines like this:

"You know how to write copy, you know a good product when you see it, you understand the marketing, traffic generation and everything to do with launches...

So...

Why are you selling your services rather than using them for your own products?"

Make me think you were speaking to copywriters, not people thinking about hiring them. In fact, I can't see how any of your posts are really relevant to hiring a copywriter, except the "proof" bit, which people rebutted with the simple "ask for proof" argument... which seems pretty straight-forward to me.

Though I guess the sand in my vagina could have traveled to my brain and be interfering with its function.

-Dan

[Barry Walls]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Make me think you were speaking to copywriters, not people thinking about hiring them. In fact, I can't see how any of your posts are really relevant to hiring a copywriter, except the "proof" bit, which people rebutted with the simple "ask for proof" argument... which seems pretty straight-forward to me.
-Dan

here you go Dan...and sorry for the vagina comment....it was uncalled for.

to illustrate this...

If I was hiring a copywriter, and one provided proof of his own high converting products and launches and asked me for $5000 for a fee...a writer without this proof would have to bid a HUGE amount lower to give me a tough decision. Maybe $1000. If he bid $2,000, Id go with the $5,000 writer every time.

The reason is ....do I really want to hire someone who knowingly puts themselves in this sort of competitive position? If they aren't rational in their own business...can I expect them to be rational in mine?

[Daniel Scott]

Barry,

Don't worry about "the vagina comment". I thought it was funny.

I understand you want proof. We all do. My question to you is, if a copywriter has a proven track record, why does it matter if it is HIS product or someone else's?

I don't expect anyone to hire a copywriter who can't deliver. But you're hiring a copywriter. If they have good references that you can write amazing copy that has made them lots of money - why should it matter whether or not it's their product?

Look at Vin. My understanding is that most of the CB products for health/fitness are his letters... isn't that enough proof that he knows his stuff?

-Dan

[Barry Walls]

Dan

I thought it was funny too....when I heard it on Southpark.

In a perfect world, I'd rather have is a screen shot of an analytics account so i could see an over time growth rate in performance.

I think it does make a difference if they have their own products...but that's obviously just my own opinion.

The reason why it makes a difference to me is because I prefer to work with more entrepreneurial types, people who walk the walk and not just talk the talk...and who can prove it with accounts they control.

I think a lot of the flak that copywriters take is because of people who aren't promoting their own products effectively who produce sub standard results more often than those who do have their own high performing products.

I'm sure both flunk sometimes, but those without their on successful products will flunk more on average in my opinion.

The ones who do it all are a cut above the rest.

In your example, if it came down to Vin and another copywriter who had his own provable, high performing products which I could examine in analytics, I'd still choose the other guy if all Vin could provide me with were testimonials.

To answer your question, having a lot of letters in health/fitness without knowing the stats behind them isn't enough proof for me in an ideal world.

All the best

Barry

[Hugh Thyer]

Many copywriters write about products that can make you millions on the stock markets...yet don't even have a share portfolio.

Many copywriters write for the weight loss market...but are overweight.

I'd hazard a guess that some would have written for the quit smoking market, even though they still light up.

And many write for the 'make money online' market, but (as you've pointed out) don't have their own online products.

I'm not sure I see why you're connecting the two. People do what they want. If they're not interested in selling their own products then that's it. They're not.

Selling products online is another business from copywriting. It requires different skills and a different mindset.

In fact, a lot of the top internet marketers control everything in their businesses EXCEPT they outsource the copywriting. Totally different skill and totally different mindset.

[colmodwyer]

If I was hiring a copywriter, and one provided proof of his own high converting products and launches and asked me for $5000 for a fee...a writer without this proof would have to bid a HUGE amount lower to give me a tough decision. Maybe $1000. If he bid $2,000, Id go with the $5,000 writer every time.

The reason is ....do I really want to hire someone who knowingly puts themselves in this sort of competitive position? If they aren't rational in their own business...can I expect them to be rational in mine?

Finbar,

Let me chime in with a few points if I may, as I feel I fall into the category of good copywriter, but horrendous business owner...

And so, your comments are starting to make my lady parts itch.

1) Just because someone makes decent money running their own business, does not mean they can make decent money writing copy for YOUR business. That's just a fact.

What if they're in a different niche?

What if they won't bother to do due diligence on research for you, because they don't care for your product as much as their own?

What if the reason they run a successful business has more to do with the fact that they are excellent marketers, managers or whatever?

2) Although I think someone mentioned they're not really in it for making money, most folks are. And so if you're a good copywriter, your time is best spent writing copy - not messing with new product ideas, reading Mike Filsaime's blog or trying to get your graphic designer in India to pull his finger out.

Take the 80/20 rule... Fact is, if you're spending 80% of your time as a copywriter, I don't think you can learn all there is to running a business with the remaining 20% (it will certainly take you a good few years, unless you're super sharp and work hard)

3) Also - and I guess this isn't too relevant because we're talking about people you can hire - but there's an awful lot of really good in-house copywriters who will never write an e-book, and who you will never hear of. Yet they'll retire in the 30's or 40's, because they've been getting paid **** loads for their copy.

But if one or two of them were to go freelance - you'd still have a preference for mid-life crisis Joe Blogs instead, who figured he didn't like his job anymore, got lucky in the IM game and now reckons he's a copywriter too?

Bottom Line Barry*: You should hire a copywriter based on how much money you think they are going to make you... And in my mind, that means hiring a copywriter with a proven track record - as a COPYWRITER - not a business owner.

* That would be a sweet IM nickname for you

Now...

The best copywriters do tend to be both entrepreneurial and have a wider set of marketing skills.

(e.g. Makepeace, Bencivenga, Halbert, Carlton and Tully all have their own products )

That's quite misleading because - as far as I'm aware - Makepeace, Bencivenga and Carlton were well known, hotshot copywriters long before any of them put out an info-product...

And from what I gather, Halbert wasn't much a business owner.

As for Tully, who the fudge is he?

Colm

[Daniel Scott]

Barry,

You're welcome to your opinion, and I understand why you feel the way you do...

HOWEVER... it is my experience that if you follow that philosophy you're leaving a lot of dough on the table.

I don't think guys like Fortin are going to give you stats about their latest tests... because they have clients coming out their ears.

When you're that good you can charge what you want and people will pay it... and if they don't, someone else will.

And to the most recent poster... "Tully" was a joke Kyle made (his name is Kyle Tully)... get it?

-Dan

[colmodwyer]

And to the most recent poster... "Tully" was a joke Kyle made (his name is Kyle Tully)... get it?

What?!? But this is not the JOKE forum?

Is that allowed?

How is one to tell when one is being serious or not?

Colm

[Daniel Scott]

Guess you were just messing around.

Sorry, Colm.

I know I'm a bit slow sometimes.

-Dan

[Barry Walls]

All sorts of ifs, and's and but's...but it really boils down in my mind to a choice between two different types of copywriter...who may be equally skilled in copywriting for the sake of argument...infact, let's say the only difference between then is this....

1. Writer #1 has their own successful products (niche unimportant) which convert

2. Writer #2 has no products of their own...and no analytics to examine...though lots of great testimonials

To get hired by me, #2 would need to be >75% cheaper than #1.

I think the odds of success tip in my favor hiring #1 on average.

Of course you could throw out a load of specific situations where this isn't the case...but I think it's generally true...which justifies higher prices.

All the best

Barry

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by bigjock

To get hired by me, #2 would need to be >75% cheaper than #1.

I think the odds of success tip in my favor hiring #1 on average.

I look at it differently.

Without throwing out any specific situations where it isn't the case, and just generalising, for myself I would want my copy to be written by someone who just writes copy for a full-time living and does nothing else. And there's also the fact that if someone's writing their own copy for their own products, they're an internet marketer, and I'd possibly even be concerned that they weren't too successful at it, if they had time to be freelancing on the side as a copywriter and apparently needed to do that in order to make a living in spite of having their own products/promotions on the go as well.

I'd rather hire someone who's "just a successful copywriter" and has a big portfolio of examples of his work that I can assess (including trying to estimate their conversions-rates) for myself.

[Dean Dhuli]

Barry,

You're entitled to have your own opinion, but I think you're missing
the most important point here...

Nothing is mandatory. It's all about CHOICE.

It's not mandatory that a copywriter should have his own
products.

It's not even mandatory that a copywriter should know
all about traffic generation.

Of course, some copywriters do know about traffic gen
and marketing... and they charge extra money on the side
for that apart from for writing copy.

But there's also nothing wrong if they're just copywriters.

It's all a matter of CHOICE.

[Barry Walls]

Originally Posted by Dean Dhuli

Barry,

You're entitled to have your own opinion, but I think you're missing
the most important point here...

Nothing is mandatory. It's all about CHOICE.

It's not mandatory that a copywriter should have his own
products.

It's not even mandatory that a copywriter should know
all about traffic generation.

Of course, some copywriters do know about traffic gen
and marketing... and they charge extra money on the side
for that apart from for writing copy.

But there's also nothing wrong if they're just copywriters.

It's all a matter of CHOICE.

WRONG, WRONG. WRONG!

Its mandatory....You MUST do what I SAY or I will come over to your house and sit on your front porch until you CONFORM to MY Wishes!

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by bigjock

To get hired by me, #2 would need to be >75% cheaper than #1

How many copywriters have you hired, Barry?

Best,

Brian

[Tim Franklin]

Wow, Good discussion reminds me of the old days back in the old forum.

I tried to read through most of the posts, out of respect to the thread and the content that is being discussed, I really hate to see someone come in and comment without really attempting to read what is going on, usually a person like that ends up making a donkey's rear end out of themselves.


So I did my due diligence, I even re-read the OPs post three times to get a better feel for what was being said.

For the most part it sort of looked like a battle of the copywriters, who is the best and so on and so forth.

( before you pull out the fire extinguisher, make sure you read and understand the follow sentence before getting out your fire AX)


We live in a different world, some of us are in the USA some are in other countries, in the USA, you can drive for about an hour and be in a totally different place and climate,)

I learned something from a man who was in the marketing world back in the 1980s long before most people here were even online.

I asked a wise man a question about one of his marketing products, it was a question about how so many people were copying his product and making money from his original idea, I asked doesn't this bother you that people are making money and your not?

He told me that first what made me think that he was not making money?

(I had an ah hah moment then, and right after that he floored me with what he had to say next)

" There is plenty of business for everyone out there..."

I have to admit my mouth dropped open when it finally hit me, now keep in mind this was in 1988, things have definitely changed over the years.

We live in a different world, the days of the million dollar website are GONE FOREVER,

but does that mean that you cant make a living selling websites?

No why would it, but it does mean that you have to work within what the market will bear, that is how the free market works.

Now I said all that stuff just to make this one point.

Speaking from a clients perspective, the only thing that really matters is the results you can guarantee me.

I mean, think of it this way, you hire a copy writer, you pay them, a decent wage for their work, and nothing happens.

You dont make any sales, you dont get any subscribers, nothing, its like a black whole and you cant seem to get anything going.

So really, when do you get to the point where copy writing makes a difference, is it when you become profitable?

Because often it does not matter how good the copy writer is, what really matters is the results you get.

If you are professional and can give a reference, I mean a real reference, like I worked on this project, before I came on board, they had
sales of only $50.00 for six months, after my super fantastic and might I add well worth the high price talent, my client made one million dollars.

Here is a copy of the sales report where we had to pay the IRS our taxes, here is a copy of the 1099 form.

****************************

Now at this point, I have my wallet out I am ready to spend $35,000.00 to hire you....

Not because, I believe in how good you say you are but you have the references to prove you can make a difference for my products.

Until that point, you have made no impression on me at all, I dont care if you charge $10.00 or $100,000.00

If you have no clout and you have no real experience, you cannot expect to charge a huge fee.

Realistically there are only a few professionals in this business, they are usually a Guild member and have an agent.

*****************************

The OP made a few statements some of which I agree with some I dont, but the real point here is that in the REAL world you would never find
a professional in a forum like this at all, so really the price for copywriting is not an issue at all, because you really can get it for $10 bucks but
what have you got at the end of the day, YES my friends, you have a $10.00 Sales page.

*****************************

So really it matters not, because there is a need for those 10 buck sales pages, and there is a need for the more expensive sales pages.

The point, hey there is room enough for everyone and if you have to lower your fees to get work so be it, we do live in a different world and its changing all the time

Have a good day, hope this was of some help to someone,) and if it was not helpful dont feel like you have to tell me about it, LOL

[Barry Walls]

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

How many copywriters have you hired, Barry?

Best,

Brian

I've never paid an online copywriter for anything in my life...and it would have to be an odd situation for me to do so...but I've worked closely with them in offline many times.

[MontelloMarketing]

Originally Posted by bigjock

1. Writer #1 has their own successful products (niche unimportant) which convert

Writer #1 doesn't want to work for you. He's already got successful products of his own. If these products are truly "successful" why in the world would he endure your scrutiny to earn $10K or $20k... or however much you're willing to pay him?

2. Writer #2 has no products of their own...and no analytics to examine...though lots of great testimonials

To get hired by me, #2 would need to be >75% cheaper than #1.

Any copywriter with "great testimonials" is going to cost you at least $6K. Most closer to $10K. Trying to figure out your math here. By 75% cheaper you mean that the guy without his own product would be 25% of the price you'd pay the guy with his own product? Basically paying the marketer/writer 4 times the amount of the guy who specializes in just writing copy? So... you'd pay a guy with "successful products of his own" $24K to write your copy?

I'd venture a bet you've never paid even $10K for copy. Probably closer to $5K. Which is probably for the person you think is a successful marketer. So the "copy only" price you've paid is what? Like $1200?

I think the odds of success tip in my favor hiring #1 on average.

I'm not sure using your 1 and 2 strategy you have any chance of success! That's just my opinion but man... I've never seen anything like it.

Of course you could throw out a load of specific situations where this isn't the case...but I think it's generally true...which justifies higher prices.

Barry can you cite some examples of buying copy from someone who "successfully" markets their own products, and whom you've hired?

I'd love to hear this! You may be giving me a whole new way to think about my business! If I can earn 4 times as much as I do now, just by "successfully" marketing my own product, I'll do $1 Million next year on copy for hire alone!

I don't care if you're a copywriter or someone who pays copywriters... everyone really needs to understand this...

Hire cheap and 9 times out of 10 you're hiring someone who doesn't have the ability to even sell themself well enough. How in the world are they going to be able to sell your product?

Sure... there are exceptions... I know... It's my turn to speak in general terms now...

If a copywriter can't convince you to pay the price he's asking... then he probably doesn't have the skills anyway.

Everyone get that?

If a marketer has the money and you come and quote him $5K and he says no... Then you don't deserve that $5K anyway. Because a worthy $5K writer would have the skills to convince that marketer to hire him at $5K.


EDITED BECAUSE... I jus saw that Barry posted before me. I was wrong. Barry has never paid ANYTHING to an online copywriter. Therefore this post can be ignored.

[Barry Walls]

I honestly don't get why I'm getting so much hostility for a personal preference that if I ever was to hire a copywriter, I'd like to see him with his own successful products.

LOL...whats the big deal?

[MontelloMarketing]

I can't speak for anyone else but I've certainly not given you any hostility.

Your "personal preference" sounds more like a made up equation that's not based in anything other than you figured you'd write it. Maybe that's why your formula isn't being met with open arms.

You're just saying things that make no sense in the real world.

As I said... the "successful" marketing copywriter doesn't need your job... and the copywriter with all the testimonials won't work for 1/4 the price you'd be willing to pay the other guy.

Where's the hostility?

[BrianMcLeod]

No hostility from me, Barry.

In the end, the rhetorical tap dance that you like do with copywriters in this forum every so often is entirely inconsequential. But it does reveal an irrational and unexplained phobia/disdain you have for copywriters.

That's why I asked how many copywriters you've hired. To reveal that you have no dog in this fight except some weird fascination you've developed about something you don't do - namely hire copywriters.

I mean, why go to such much trouble to express a personal preference about something that: "...it would have to be an odd situation for me to do..."

Here's to a sand-free vajayjay...

Brian

[Barry Walls]

Sand free here too...all good then.

It isnt disdain...far from it. I love reading some of the work copywriters put out.

I'm on several copywriters lists, listen to podcasts when I can from copywriters and Jo Sugarmans Adweek Copy Writing hand book is a fantastic book on the human condition and direct response copy. I also love Andy Maslens "Write to sell" and ofcourse Caldinis stuff.

These guys are really smart business people and I learn a huge amount from them every time I tune in.

You rarely hear complaints about their work.

But I suppsoe where some of my reservations come from is that we used to run investment seminars and destroy the copywriters response rates with work we threw together in 10 minutes.

That's always made me a little wary and careful...thats all.

I dont really mean to bust your balls.

All the best

Barry

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

But it does reveal an irrational and unexplained phobia/disdain you have for copywriters.

It's perfectly rational and perfectly explainable.

I give you money. You write some words. If I make more money, it was because of your great words, and I should give you more money. If I don't, or if I lose money, it was because of something else - but additional copywriting will help, and I should give you more money.

Doesn't that seem like a scam? No matter what happens, you earned your money and I should give you more.

It's a largely intractable problem. You have to understand what copywriters do before you can say "oh, yeah, copywriting IS fantastic" and feel like it's a good investment. But acquiring that understanding is hard, and it always feels like you're being charged a lot of money for nothing at all... until it works, and you can see it working, and you know it's the only reason things work.

I think most people who understand the value of copywriting probably understand it because they've worked for someone who understood it, and had the opportunity to watch it work for that someone. Then, when they go out on their own, they bring this understanding with them. That's certainly what happened with me.

[Bruce Wedding]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

It's perfectly rational and perfectly explainable.

I give you money. You write some words. If I make more money, it was because of your great words, and I should give you more money. If I don't, or if I lose money, it was because of something else - but additional copywriting will help, and I should give you more money.

Doesn't that seem like a scam? No matter what happens, you earned your money and I should give you more.

Is is a perpetual misunderstanding that copy means success or failure. Copy is one part of the equation.

What you've elucidated above, no decent copywriter would ever agree with or do.

If you make money, it was because you put a problem solving device in front of people with a problem, convinced them to trust you and offered your solution at a great price. How much did copywriting have to do with that?

If you lose money, it was because you:

1. Tried to solve a non-existent problem
2. Solved it poorly
3. Failed to convince people that you can solve it.
4. Failed to make a good offer.
5. Failed to get your problem in front of the people with a problem.

How much does a copywriter have to do with that?