Why Not to Charge $197 for your sales copy... Or pay it, either.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

Is is a perpetual misunderstanding that copy means success or failure. Copy is one part of the equation.

Precisely.

When the equation doesn't come out in your favor, you're just a cog in the machine.

When it does, you're just as quick to point out the whole machine doesn't run without that cog.

This isn't any sort of trickery or dishonesty; it's just the reality of copywriting. It's more properly an art, not a science, and you can't easily determine the quality of art. And like all art, it's expensive - there are few people who do it well, and those people only have so much time, and dammit they have worked their arses off for years to do it well in the first place.

But it sure does feel like "heads I win, tails you lose" when you're the one who has to write the check.

[Bruce Wedding]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Precisely.

When the equation doesn't come out in your favor, you're just a cog in the machine.

When it does, you're just as quick to point out the whole machine doesn't run without that cog.

It doesn't matter HOW the equation comes out. Both of your statements above are ALWAYS true.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

It doesn't matter HOW the equation comes out.

You're missing the point.

How do I know when the copywriting is the problem?

When I'm looking at my campaign saying "this isn't performing the way I'd like", how do I know the problem is definitely the copywriting - and better copy will fix it?

Well, I don't. Indeed, no copywriter will ever tell me such a thing.

Most people find that suspicious.

[Matt Jutras]

Let's break it up into 3 parts.

First is the offer...if you have a killer product and you know it, rule that out.

Second is traffic. Are you getting your target market to look at what you're offering? Should be easy enough for even a ten year old to figure out.

Third is the sales copy. It should convince your target market that your offer is the answer to their problem(s)...so, please cut the crap and order now thankyouverymuch.

If you know that the first two pieces of the puzzle are in the correct place...you can most certainly determine if the sales copy is working for you or not.

As Dubya said, it ain't rocket surgery.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Matt Jutras

Let's break it up into 3 parts.

Yes, let's do that.

Over here, we have the parts of the machine on the LEFT of the cog, and over here, we have the parts of the machine on the RIGHT of the cog.

If you know the machine on both sides is working properly, then clearly any problem must be with the cog!

Simple, right?

Do you perhaps understand why a lot of people don't trust copywriters? Because that's really the point here: it is perfectly natural and normal for someone who needs ad copy to be distrustful of copywriters.

The responses of "no it isn't; you can trust us!" really don't help. Your job is to convince people to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do. If you couldn't do that, you wouldn't be in this business. If you couldn't turn a "no" into a "yes", you wouldn't be worth hiring. Don't you suppose anyone who walks into your office realises that's what you do and wants something a little less polished in response to his concerns?

I mean, come on. YOU'RE the marketing people. I'm a tech geek.

[Bruce Wedding]

Actually, you are working with the wrong copywriters. Myself and the ones I know won't take a job that is a sure failure. I've warned several people who have approached me that I thought the price was off or the product wasn't needed or of the right quality.

Of course, most people don't want to hear there product sucks or their price is too high and will insist that you go ahead anyway. Then when you do and it flops, they point a finger at you. I refuse to work with those people any more.

[Daniel Scott]

I can understand that hiring a copywriter is scary. After all, the people who really need us don't have the skills to evaluate our work properly (hence why cheap, nasty copywriters sell so well... people can't appreciate the subtle differences that lead to massive jumps in response).

However, as Bruce said, no decent copywriter will take a project that will flop. We're putting our reputation on the line here, and if we're in demand we're booked for a while anyway. There's no need for us to take a project we're unsure about... there simply is no motivation to do so.

I can't speak for other copywriters, but I know one of the first things I do when working with a client is ensure there's a demand for the product, review their USP (if they have one), and make sure their offer is something I think will sell.

If there are issues, I raise them with the client. Maybe I'm just lucky, but so far I've only worked with amazing clients who are all too happy to take my advice AND turn out the best possible product they can.

I think if you go with a writer who has a strong track record and lots of satisfied clients... you can't go wrong. You just have to hire a writer who is going to do that initial research for you, because it's very, very important.

-Dan

[Matt Jutras]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Yes, let's do that.

Over here, we have the parts of the machine on the LEFT of the cog, and over here, we have the parts of the machine on the RIGHT of the cog.

If you know the machine on both sides is working properly, then clearly any problem must be with the cog!

Simple, right?

Yes it is. Because it's not my job to polish a turd and present it as gold. Nobody ever said that copywriting is a "magic bullet". The offer still has to be good, and you still have to have an audience to present the offer to.

Do you perhaps understand why a lot of people don't trust copywriters? Because that's really the point here: it is perfectly natural and normal for someone who needs ad copy to be distrustful of copywriters.

Actually, I don't think a lot of people distrust copywriters at all. You're just projecting your own bias into the discussion, without using facts.

The responses of "no it isn't; you can trust us!" really don't help.

I only explained to you that copywriting is the third most important part of a sales campaign, nothing more nothing less.

Your job is to convince people to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do.

Dead wrong. It's my job to extract benefits from something that solves a problem, and present it to a prospect in such a manner that he wants to purchase. NOBODY can convince
someone to do something that they wouldn't ordinarily do.

I mean, come on. YOU'RE the marketing people. I'm a tech geek.

Exactly.

[Bayo]

Really interesting discussions here...I never knew this type of stuff was discussed.

I really think that your fees reflect your 'self worth'

If you are starting from scratch then learn to sell. Period.

I write my own sales copy for my infoproducts. The products sell well and I keep fine tuning the sales copy as I release more products.

If I were to properly enter the world of copywriting I would not charge less than $497 minimum (and because I would want to collect testimonials) for a sales letter. Why? Because I know that I have proof that what I write sells products (as well as information product creation abilities)

It really is about self-worth, ability to sell your services (and if you can't do that, how the heck are you goig to sell someone else's stuff?) ... and confidence at the end of the day.

[Rich Jackson]

hey im offering my brand new copy writing services for a limited time only to the next 40..20 10 people who click below.
and if you act now you can get my Unbelievable services for $45,000 WoW what a discount.

I'll even throw in 4 bonuses and a vanilla cupcake. and if you order within the next 15 minutes i'll put some icing on the cupcake..BUT WAIT..theres more

for a limited time only you get to choose between chocolate or vanilla icing..WOWzers!

but the value doesnt stop there..Im also going to give you some
Duncan Hines cake mix ($697 Value) Yours Free
Betty Crocker cake mix ($497 Value) Yours Free

To see my cake mix in action watch this short video below
[add video that has no forward or rewind controls] (hell dont even add volume controls)

[add over the top testimonials that are more fake than a california tity!]

[add more testimonials of old men and woman...like they are just walking around with digital cameras snaping pics of themselves and then sending those little tiny pics to bull**** product ownser..]

Can you see the amazing benefits of my cupcakes. you can try my "Simple" and easy to digest cupcakes and you'll be earning $6879.77 (notice the emphasis on simple and easy because apparantly these words are loved by would be buyers).....ps pay attention to the random numbers, yep this really makes me more believablE.

HOW I EARN THOUSANDS EACH MONTH JUST BY PLAYING WITH MY CUPCAKES... [cant forget the how i headlines, oh and dont forget the cc0000 hex colors]

add more scarcity here....then hit'em with the blue tree method, boy that never fails.

{ok finally after reading this damn sales letter for 3 hours theres a cta..yeah some of you guys have some long ass sales letters hahaha its 2010 get to the point!}

P.S> You thought this sales letter was over didnt you...well i forgot to tell you about my special 30 or 60 day guarantee BECAUSE THATS WHAT CLICKBANK ALLOWS.

So you have 60 days to try my cupcakes if you dont like them you can return them for a full refund..this is risk free, cant you see how free the risk is, im talking absolutely no risk.

P.S.S. Im almost done i just want to recap everything you're getting.
(...blah blah blah you're getting $4597 worth of value for $47 bucks) hahaha you know good and damn well that ecourse aint even worth 27 bucks and you're talking about $47 bwahahaha

P.S.S.S. Yes ive seen sales letters with like 6 ps's what a shame...i guess they dont have confidence in their copy. maybe thats why it was so lon..because they arent good enough to get their point across in as few words as possible...

wow.. i cant believe i wrote this much copy just to sell my precious cupcakes.

hey guys please buy my cupcakes, hahahahahahahahahahahaha

i think my copy is worth ateast $10,000

(on a serious note at the company i work here in texas profitfuel.com i get to scan and dissect a lot of sales pages..it's my job to reverse engineer the latest and greatest in online marketing copywriting. we have a large daabase of swipe fles, survey, interviews with copywriting greats and even soft interrogations to really pick the brain of some of the worlds best copywriters and what we've found was the only difference between great copywriters and the horrible ones were SYSTEMS...some of these guys had a pecific 4 or 5 ways to write a headline, and the same for the body content then they had a process they would use to choose the type of scarcity they would use in their copy.
Again, i dont write copy i just study it and give the information to my job so they can pass it on to their in house copywriters... and yes these guys do make alot of money..granted they are writing copy for multi milllion dollar companies..but get this.
each of our 6 writers that we currently have, had little to no training in writing copy. besides reading books and stuff llike that. according to my studies they were only charging between $500-$800 before they were hired on.
oh well thats enough for me...im off to build my own im empire...and yes i do write my own copy!


only 2 slots left. ACT NOW!

[arfasaira]

A great thread to mull over! This is especially relevant for me since I am going to be offering my copywriting services on the WSO section soon.

I am trying to look at it from all angles and can and DO understand everyone's point here. When I started out as a freelance writer, I was being paid a pittance. I now never ever work for less than $75/hr because I know I can. I didn't get there overnight though.

The proof is in the pudding. You should definitely charge what you think you are worth. That said, when building your portfolio, you may do work for free (like I have done) to then upsell your other services (which I have done quite well) and charge properly.

I wrote a sales letter for a client for free...he was so impressed that he got me to do his autoresponders for him...which I charged quite a bit for. He didn't mind paying because he knew he was getting value for money.

That said, when I do launch my WSO, I am not going to charge anywhere near what I know its worth because I want to prove I can do a great job. That's why I am going to limit my client intake to 5 and then hike the price up.

I am sure quite a few of you have probably done something similar. As for every other newbie out there, get your samples and experience and then get hiking with the price. Once others see what value you bring to the table, they will be only too happy to pay your rates.

[Hank Rearden]

This entire thread is ridiculous. The only real piece of value was the man offering cupcakes. I love me some cup cakes

[EvolBaby]

I couldn't resist reading this thread.

I come from a professional newspaper background.

When you write for a newspaper you are thoroughly screened
before you get the job. It's not always a matter of exact
structure as we have editors for that, it's a primary matter of
whether you can gather and present data accurately and
write on two levels, standard and expressive.

When one is writing about a town board meeting one is basically
relaying the events of that meeting with the relevant data and
in some cases any human element info such as persons who lost
their temper or engaged in some humorous behavior.

We also had to write advertisement copy and review thousands
of stories per week regarding entertainment venues.

I've seen it all.

Copywriting for the IM arena is a specialized one on several
levels. You professionals here know the difference between
well written copy that achieves it's goals from hack copy put
together by some computer program or person who has about
as much creativity as a wet brick.

I've written just about everything and have been doing so for
30 years. I know some of the top screenwriters, authors of
both fiction and fact and tons of news reporters. We often go
over points of writing and literature and the sloppy writing found
on the web is a constant source of both amusement and irritation.

Now that I've been studying the IM industry I see how the
specialists do it successfully. The levels of application from
articles to sales copy can be informative and entertaining.

The bottom line however is whether said copy does what it's
directed to do.

A newbie into the IM world has to study and pass muster.

That is when one can set one's prices accordingly. The
learning curve should match one's prices. If you're new and
trying to establish yourself, one should do it on a gradient.

Charging astronomical prices and you've yet to prove yourself
is foolhardy to say the least. Charging too low is self defeating.

How do you find that balance? Study, ask questions, barter,
negotiate.

Sure you'll find people who will intentionally attempt to undermine
the copywriting market because of either greed or need.

When you live in a third world country where the average annual
salary is $1k then selling your services for $2k is a windfall. The
counterparts in developed nations like the U.S. would get $20k for
the same job. A client who is out for the bargain basement end
of generating capital will go for the cheap and guess what? They'll
end up in the cheap.

We've all got to start somewhere and sure you'll run into people
who take advantage of your ignorance but payback's a "B".

I've been making great money the past 3 years copywriting for
a select number of clients and each year the income skyrockets.

Now I'm here in the IM world and making my way. Each week has
been a boost in income and connections. As I progress I'll be
able to command those higher salaries but I'm not stupid enough
to start out demanding absurd prices without showing I can walk
the line.