Why Not to Charge $197 for your sales copy... Or pay it, either.

[Bruce Wedding]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

It's perfectly rational and perfectly explainable.

I give you money. You write some words. If I make more money, it was because of your great words, and I should give you more money. If I don't, or if I lose money, it was because of something else - but additional copywriting will help, and I should give you more money.

Doesn't that seem like a scam? No matter what happens, you earned your money and I should give you more.

Is is a perpetual misunderstanding that copy means success or failure. Copy is one part of the equation.

What you've elucidated above, no decent copywriter would ever agree with or do.

If you make money, it was because you put a problem solving device in front of people with a problem, convinced them to trust you and offered your solution at a great price. How much did copywriting have to do with that?

If you lose money, it was because you:

1. Tried to solve a non-existent problem
2. Solved it poorly
3. Failed to convince people that you can solve it.
4. Failed to make a good offer.
5. Failed to get your problem in front of the people with a problem.

How much does a copywriter have to do with that?

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

Is is a perpetual misunderstanding that copy means success or failure. Copy is one part of the equation.

Precisely.

When the equation doesn't come out in your favor, you're just a cog in the machine.

When it does, you're just as quick to point out the whole machine doesn't run without that cog.

This isn't any sort of trickery or dishonesty; it's just the reality of copywriting. It's more properly an art, not a science, and you can't easily determine the quality of art. And like all art, it's expensive - there are few people who do it well, and those people only have so much time, and dammit they have worked their arses off for years to do it well in the first place.

But it sure does feel like "heads I win, tails you lose" when you're the one who has to write the check.

[Bruce Wedding]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Precisely.

When the equation doesn't come out in your favor, you're just a cog in the machine.

When it does, you're just as quick to point out the whole machine doesn't run without that cog.

It doesn't matter HOW the equation comes out. Both of your statements above are ALWAYS true.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

It doesn't matter HOW the equation comes out.

You're missing the point.

How do I know when the copywriting is the problem?

When I'm looking at my campaign saying "this isn't performing the way I'd like", how do I know the problem is definitely the copywriting - and better copy will fix it?

Well, I don't. Indeed, no copywriter will ever tell me such a thing.

Most people find that suspicious.

[Matt Jutras]

Let's break it up into 3 parts.

First is the offer...if you have a killer product and you know it, rule that out.

Second is traffic. Are you getting your target market to look at what you're offering? Should be easy enough for even a ten year old to figure out.

Third is the sales copy. It should convince your target market that your offer is the answer to their problem(s)...so, please cut the crap and order now thankyouverymuch.

If you know that the first two pieces of the puzzle are in the correct place...you can most certainly determine if the sales copy is working for you or not.

As Dubya said, it ain't rocket surgery.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Matt Jutras

Let's break it up into 3 parts.

Yes, let's do that.

Over here, we have the parts of the machine on the LEFT of the cog, and over here, we have the parts of the machine on the RIGHT of the cog.

If you know the machine on both sides is working properly, then clearly any problem must be with the cog!

Simple, right?

Do you perhaps understand why a lot of people don't trust copywriters? Because that's really the point here: it is perfectly natural and normal for someone who needs ad copy to be distrustful of copywriters.

The responses of "no it isn't; you can trust us!" really don't help. Your job is to convince people to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do. If you couldn't do that, you wouldn't be in this business. If you couldn't turn a "no" into a "yes", you wouldn't be worth hiring. Don't you suppose anyone who walks into your office realises that's what you do and wants something a little less polished in response to his concerns?

I mean, come on. YOU'RE the marketing people. I'm a tech geek.

[Bruce Wedding]

Actually, you are working with the wrong copywriters. Myself and the ones I know won't take a job that is a sure failure. I've warned several people who have approached me that I thought the price was off or the product wasn't needed or of the right quality.

Of course, most people don't want to hear there product sucks or their price is too high and will insist that you go ahead anyway. Then when you do and it flops, they point a finger at you. I refuse to work with those people any more.

[Daniel Scott]

I can understand that hiring a copywriter is scary. After all, the people who really need us don't have the skills to evaluate our work properly (hence why cheap, nasty copywriters sell so well... people can't appreciate the subtle differences that lead to massive jumps in response).

However, as Bruce said, no decent copywriter will take a project that will flop. We're putting our reputation on the line here, and if we're in demand we're booked for a while anyway. There's no need for us to take a project we're unsure about... there simply is no motivation to do so.

I can't speak for other copywriters, but I know one of the first things I do when working with a client is ensure there's a demand for the product, review their USP (if they have one), and make sure their offer is something I think will sell.

If there are issues, I raise them with the client. Maybe I'm just lucky, but so far I've only worked with amazing clients who are all too happy to take my advice AND turn out the best possible product they can.

I think if you go with a writer who has a strong track record and lots of satisfied clients... you can't go wrong. You just have to hire a writer who is going to do that initial research for you, because it's very, very important.

-Dan

[Matt Jutras]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Yes, let's do that.

Over here, we have the parts of the machine on the LEFT of the cog, and over here, we have the parts of the machine on the RIGHT of the cog.

If you know the machine on both sides is working properly, then clearly any problem must be with the cog!

Simple, right?

Yes it is. Because it's not my job to polish a turd and present it as gold. Nobody ever said that copywriting is a "magic bullet". The offer still has to be good, and you still have to have an audience to present the offer to.

Do you perhaps understand why a lot of people don't trust copywriters? Because that's really the point here: it is perfectly natural and normal for someone who needs ad copy to be distrustful of copywriters.

Actually, I don't think a lot of people distrust copywriters at all. You're just projecting your own bias into the discussion, without using facts.

The responses of "no it isn't; you can trust us!" really don't help.

I only explained to you that copywriting is the third most important part of a sales campaign, nothing more nothing less.

Your job is to convince people to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do.

Dead wrong. It's my job to extract benefits from something that solves a problem, and present it to a prospect in such a manner that he wants to purchase. NOBODY can convince
someone to do something that they wouldn't ordinarily do.

I mean, come on. YOU'RE the marketing people. I'm a tech geek.

Exactly.

[Bayo]

Really interesting discussions here...I never knew this type of stuff was discussed.

I really think that your fees reflect your 'self worth'

If you are starting from scratch then learn to sell. Period.

I write my own sales copy for my infoproducts. The products sell well and I keep fine tuning the sales copy as I release more products.

If I were to properly enter the world of copywriting I would not charge less than $497 minimum (and because I would want to collect testimonials) for a sales letter. Why? Because I know that I have proof that what I write sells products (as well as information product creation abilities)

It really is about self-worth, ability to sell your services (and if you can't do that, how the heck are you goig to sell someone else's stuff?) ... and confidence at the end of the day.