Why Not to Charge $197 for your sales copy... Or pay it, either.

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

Okay, so this might tickle a few feathers, but I'm just going to come out and say it.

I could tell you not to charge $197 for your sales copy out of professional courtesy, but it doesn't devalue the work of other copywriters... In fact, it makes our work MORE valuable.

I could tell you not to charge $197 for a salesletter because you'll earn more if you charge more, but that isn't necessarily true. If you suck, you'll earn about the same. But you will have to work a little bit less (not much, mind you.)

No, the real reason I suggest people stop charging $197 for sales copy is one word.

RESPECT

I'm not talking about the respect you give, either. I'm talking about the respect you GET.

Think about this for a minute... When you buy, say, a kitchen gadget at a department store for $200 - you have a certain respect for that item. You invested in it, and want it to last a long time. If you buy the same kitchen gadget at a dollar store, how much are you going to respect it?

Not at all.

Because if you really cared about the item, you would have bought a better quality one. Dollar stores are notorious for bad quality products, of course, and (the number one reason) if it breaks, you can replace it easily. After all, it was only a dollar!

Now apply this to your copywriting.

If you're priced at 1/10th of what even the most newbie copywriters are charging (at least, the ones with confidence), you're going to get DOLLAR STORE shoppers. They're not going to expect you to be any good, so they're going to get their mucky mitts in there and try and "fix" you so your copy is better. Then when it sucks, they blame it on you, but aren't too angry because "After all, it was only a dollar!"

You can be replaced, and in all likelihood (since the client has no real expectation of you doing well) you WILL be.

Plus you'll have no respect from your peers... Your copy could be fantastic, but we'll have a hard time believing it. Why? Because it takes CONFIDENCE to charge real fees for your work, and it takes CONFIDENCE to write better than half-assed sales copy.

Worst of all, you'll have no respect for yourself. Because you don't think you deserve more - you don't respect yourself.

Please, for yourself, for your clients, and for the reputation of the warrior forum - charge what you're worth.

And if your copy really is only worth $197, then for your own sake it might be time to move on.

- Cherilyn
The Canadian Copywriter

P.S. Apparently my original intentions weren't clear. Hope I didn't offend anyone in my attempts to help newer copywriters see the light at the end of the value tunnel - none was intended, nor was this a post scolding anyone for not paying higher fees. Just another perspective.

[JP Wilson]

Great post Cherilyn. Although I am curious about your opinion on what a newbie, unproven copywriter should be charging (the range at least) for a quality letter. Only asking because there are some in this community who would (and have) argued the opposite.

I personally know of copywriters (decent one’s mind you) who are selling their services for absolutely dirt cheap. I don’t think that too many people lack respect for them, but are instead, raving fans of someone willing to give them what they perceive to be a Bentley for the price of a Honda, however self-defeating it may be for the writer.

I don’t want to sound like I disagree with you, because in all honesty I think that $197 is beyond being a ridiculously low price for a salesletter. But at what point, in your mind, does a price become reasonable? How much did you charge when you first started out, if you don't mind disclosing?

[Matt Jutras]

I understand what you're saying...but please tell me what a writer is supposed to do when they are:

• totally unknown

• without references

• still honing their craft

I've done a few quick rewrite projects for some Warrior members for $100.00 and all have been pretty happy with the results...all we're a pleasure to work with, too...no drama.

So I guess what I'm saying is: what's wrong with charging a bargain price and then raising it as time goes on, building references/experience?

[Alex Cohen]

Originally Posted by Matt Jutras

So I guess what I'm saying is: what's wrong with charging a bargain price and then raising it as time goes on, building references/experience?

Matt,

It boils down to mindset. If a copywriter bases his fees on his prior experience, sure, he has to start small and work his way up.

But if a copywriter bases his fees on the value he brings to the table, it's a different matter completely.

How a copywriter positions himself is how people see him.

Alex

[John_S]

If copywriters want to charge $197 or $97, let them.

Copywriters, of all people, should know better than to argue (in writing, no less) against human nature.

Both the parties will, eventually, learn. If not, then either side should get out of the business they are in. Using these copywriters, the clients will learn through the school of hard knocks.

You're cutting your own throat advocating this (or at least mine). Just about zero of my clients hire me first. They hire somebody cheap. ...And again. ...And again. Between two to five others before they come to me.

That's why what I charge is real cheap. I'm comparing it to triple the costs they've paid out to all the others in direct payment, lost sales and lost time. An educated consumer of copywriting is my best client.

It takes an expensive education for clients to understand. I'm all for not footing the expense and time myself.

I, for one, heartily cheer on the rabble. Their clients will be my clients, eventually.

I understand what you're saying...but please tell me what a writer is supposed to do when they are:

* totally unknown

* without references

* still honing their craft

Yeah, selling your own products and practicing on yourself never occurred to you. Good luck practicing on clients and then keeping them.

As I was saying: Keep up the good work.

[Matt Jutras]

No problem, John.

I have no issue with undercutting, and then eventually surpassing you.

[John_S]

then eventually

I know you have no issue with waiting. Hope your clients can hold their breath that long.

[Matt Jutras]

John,

we all weren't born gifted like you.

Some of us have to start at the bottom and claw our way to the top.

Such is life.

*Shrug*

[John_S]

born gifted

Belief systems like that keep me in business.

Just keep writing. Please.

[Matt Jutras]

You sarcasm detector needs to be recharged.

Anyways, I'm not going to apologize or go on defense for taking action and DOING WORK instead of just reading books on copywriting all day but doing NOTHING.

I had to start somewhere.

I know you mentioned making my own products and writing copy for them...but...I don't want to do that.

I'm sure it worked for you and maybe some other people but I want to write sales letters, not make e-books.

[John_S]

I don't want to do that.

And why should you. That deprives me.

That's some great advertising so far. Please continue.

[Matt Jutras]

Nope, that's all for tonight.

I'm drinking beer and Dirty Harry on Blu-Ray is calling.

Cheers, mate!

[John_S]

You can't know how much I support your hard work. Thank you for all you do.

[Bruce Wedding]

My first sales letter was for $350. I did one then went to $500 and quickly up to $1,000 and higher.

I have no problem at all with $97 or $197 copywriters. Hell, I've thought about using them myself because of how I value my time. If I can get a decent start on a sales letter for $197 and it saves me 8 hours of work, I figure that's worth $800+ to me.

I will make a factual observation though. 3 years ago, you could run a WSO for sales letters at $397 to even $1,000 and sell them out in a few days. Because of the cheap copywriters, those days are long gone. It never hurt me because I never ran a single sales copy WSO and never will. But it's a shame that a quick cash method is gone because there are times some people really need that.

As for the excuse, "you have to start somewhere..." Fine, but you don't have to start in the gutter. $400 is a damn cheap sales letter for any marketer and the guy writing it can at least earn $10-20/hr for his time.

Honestly, Cherilyn nailed it. Respect yourself enough to not work for peanuts.

[Matt Jutras]

Bruce...before Clint Eastwood chomps on his hotdog and blows away the bank robbers...please clear up some confusion for me..

..you said that a few years ago it was easy to run a WSO and get $397-$1000 for a sales letter...but those days were long gone due to cheap copywriters..

Then, you said that $400 is damn cheap and anything less is starting in the gutter...so how is someone supposed to start off charging a lot if there is this glut of people who will do it for less?

I'm asking this honestly, not attacking you.

What's wrong with doing 2 or 3 letters for a hundred bucks and building some references that can be used to climb up the ladder of better/higher paying clients?

I can see not making a career out of working for peanuts, but I stand behind what I said earlier: you gotta start somewhere.

[John_S]

at least earn $10-20/hr for his time.

What on earth makes you think copywriters now spend the same amount of time on client projects -- or spend time actually writing? They'll earn that $20 per hour with fewer hours.

Simple human nature.

Hello? Swipe file copy and paste takes what -- ten minutes? Frankly I'm surprised it hasn't reached $9.97 by now.

[Bruce Wedding]

Originally Posted by Matt Jutras

Bruce...before Clint Eastwood chomps on his hotdog and blows away the bank robbers...please clear up some confusion for me..

..you said that a few years ago it was easy to run a WSO and get $397-$1000 for a sales letter...but those days were long gone due to cheap copywriters..

Then, you said that $400 is damn cheap and anything less is starting in the gutter...so how is someone supposed to start off charging a lot if there is this glut of people who will do it for less?

I'm asking this honestly, not attacking you.

Simple. You don't start in the Warrior Forum WSO area. It's dead for serious copywriters.

Originally Posted by Matt Jutras

What's wrong with doing 2 or 3 letters for a hundred bucks and building some references that can be used to climb up the ladder of better/higher paying clients?

I can see not making a career out of working for peanuts, but I stand behind what I said earlier: you gotta start somewhere.

Matt, if you don't think anything is wrong with it, then nothing is wrong with it. There are certainly times where you make a sacrifice for a future gain. And what I value my time at and what you value yours at may be entirely different numbers.

But I'll tell you this. If you get a rep as a $197 copywriter, you're going to find yourself stuck there. And there is a lot of visibility in this forum, more than you realize.

[Bruce Wedding]

Originally Posted by John_S

What on earth makes you think copywriters now spend the same amount of time on client projects -- or spend time actually writing? They'll earn that $20 per hour with fewer hours.

Simple human nature.

Hello? Swipe file copy and paste takes what -- ten minutes? Frankly I'm surprised it hasn't reached $9.97 by now.

You're a little abstract for me, John. Are you saying the $97 guys are swiping their copy word for word? If so, they must be students of the rabbi.

[John_S]

If you get a rep as a $197 copywriter, you're going to find yourself stuck there. And there is a lot of visibility in this forum, more than you realize.

You are revealing actual information. For shame. What has the web come to.

the $97 guys are swiping their copy word for word?

I think, as the prices decrease, economic realities dictate change. I think if you think the copywriters now are doing the exact same thing they did back then, you may want to take a closer look.

You can't generalize to every last person. It is possible to hit the labor lotto. But that's not the way to bet.

Question: Do you really need a copywriter whose "secret" is marking down the price 80% to 90% or more? Couldn't clients kinda, sorta figure out how to change a number on their own?

[Barry Walls]

Ive never written sales copy in my life, but I read 2 books about it and I think I've basically got it down.

I respect myself and am considering starting off charging $2000 for a sales letter...and thats CHEAP...so Im only doing it once before I double my rates.

If the copy flunks...Ive learned from this forum that its not my fault...probably the offer/traffic/insert reason here....so how can I lose?

Money for nothing...yes?

[Matt Jutras]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

But I'll tell you this. If you get a rep as a $197 copywriter, you're going to find yourself stuck there. And there is a lot of visibility in this forum, more than you realize.

I agree. If you keep charging a cheap price, you will be known as cheap.

But, you did a few jobs for $500 when you were starting out...and I'm assuming you arent stuck at that pay level...or have a rep as a "cheap" copywriter.

If that approach worked for you, it should work for others.

Not attacking, just making a point.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Good thread.

It's not hard to bang-out a formulaic salesletter for a generic product
pretty fast - there is no research or real thinking involved,
just regurgitation of cliches for a project that doesn't really
matter much one way or the other. It's on the level of a guy
hawking ginsu knives in a flee-market... either the product
just sells itself on it's usefulness, or it flops.

The problem is that in the real marketplace situations most
products are not unique or useful or such obvious amazing
values that they "sell themselves" like the Ginsu. There is
differentiation and price-justification to be done if the client
actually wants to make some money with his or her salesletter -
in fact there are so many subtle factors of timing, marketplace
awareness, trial closes... too many factors to rattle them
off like a shopping list.

Bottom-line, creating copy that sells and succeeds in a
competitive marketplace is not child's play and it is a unwise
writer who is capable of winning copy who undercharges
for that hard-won ability.

I don't actually want to argue in this thread - I think it's a good
topic to bring-up and I value everybody's viewpoint here.

[John_S]

Bottom-line, creating copy that sells and succeeds in a
competitive marketplace is not child's play and it is a unwise
writer who is capable of winning copy who undercharges
for that hard-won ability.

I think you're leaving out those people who don't have that ability, and don't want to put in the time to earn it. In those cases, pricing is probably about right -- if anything, high.

There's a certain wisdom in pricing that cuts through all the hyperbole. A lot of these people's claims are writing checks their copy can't cash. Price flushes that out.

Consider it the mirror opposite of putting your money where your mouth is. Every so often you do in fact get what you pay for.

Some people lack confidence simply because they have every right to.

[Kyle Tully]

Originally Posted by Matt Jutras

I understand what you're saying...but please tell me what a writer is supposed to do when they are:

• totally unknown

• without references

• still honing their craft

Learn how to sell

[John_S]

Learn how to sell

I don't think you're allowed to be this sensible on the web.

[Kay King]

If you are a copywriter who is paid thousands - why do you care about those who charge less?

If they aren't any competition to you, why lecture them?

There are different levels of expertise in every area of IM - and people charge according to their experience, according to how much work they can get, and also based on what they expect or need (and that may have to do with where they live).

It seems to be mostly in the writing arena - articles/ghostwriters and copywriters - where those who charge high fees seem to resent those who don't. If the lower priced writers don't affect YOUR business, why is it necessary to denigrate them?

kay

[MikeHumphreys]

I started as a copywriter with only my own infoproducts and offline marketing pieces to show as my portfolio. 99% of them were massage therapy related as I owned a massage therapy center for 6 1/2 years.

That was my initial hook: I was building a portfolio and professional reputation so that's why I was charging so little then (Aug-Dec 2006).

My first copywriting client hired me for $100 to write a new home page for his website. Of course, he got me that cheap because he's one of my best friends and introduced me to my wife.

My next project was $200 or $300 rewrites and $400 for a sales letter from scratch. I ran a WSO for that and sold it out within 4 days.

I quickly bumped my prices to $1000... then $1200... $1500... $2000 and bit more each month until I got into the $4-5K range depending on the project. For the past 2 years, I've been writing both offline and online copy so my fees really do depend on the type of project.

I started out as a volume copywriter which helped me strengthen some of my skills but gave me a killer overloaded schedule. Most of my skills improved from constant studying and practice of copywriting. I read strong sales copy written by very skilled copywriters every day. I am usually writing copy for either clients or my own businesses on a daily basis as well.

I switched as quickly as I could to being a high-quality sales copy guy. No swipe file games... clients hire me to write from scratch which what I do. I'm not the fastest at writing copy but I am damn good at what I do. I have the testimonials and track record to back my claim too.

That's the path that a lot of successful copywriters I know have done. You parlay your own marketing skills and client successes into justifying higher fees.

Takes some time and a lot of hard work but it's worth it in the long run. Stop competing on price. There's always someone willing or able to work cheaper. Start competing on the value that you can deliver to your clients before, during, and after the sales letter is written.

re: WSOs. The copywriting ones are tougher to charge decent prices because of the constant stream of dirt-cheap copy WSOs. I have done a few in the past 2 years that have flat-out bombed. Other copywriting-related ones have done fairly well.

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by Kay King

If you are a copywriter who is paid thousands - why do you care about those who charge less?

If they aren't any competition to you, why lecture them?

There are different levels of expertise in every area of IM - and people charge according to their experience, according to how much work they can get, and also based on what they expect or need (and that may have to do with where they live).

It seems to be mostly in the writing arena - articles/ghostwriters and copywriters - where those who charge high fees seem to resent those who don't. If the lower priced writers don't affect YOUR business, why is it necessary to denigrate them?

kay

Good points Kay. You're right: 99% of copywriters who charge less than me don't affect my business because I don't market my business on price.

Personally, I try to encourage them to break out of the low pay/high volume copywriting business as it's a quick way to burnout. Been there, done that. It's just another way to give back to the profession that has been so good to my family and me over the years.

In terms of Warrior Forum, when all copywriters were charging within the range of copywriting fees ($500-$10K) that most copywriters were charging, it meant every copywriter had an easier time getting clients. Many clients were getting good to great copy as a result. Someone charging $97 per letter needs to write A LOT of them every month just to pay their bills. While some clients were thrilled with getting a bargain, many of them weren't getting results from their copy either.

As soon as some copywriters started charging under $200, it made it more difficult to get clients because you had to do a better job of "proving" why you were worth more than the $97 or $197 copywriter.

Bottom line: When consumers can't tell the difference between service providers, the service becomes a commodity and then consumers make a decision strictly on lowest price.

That's why copywriters who have focused on offering high-quality copy and high-quality customer service have continued to do well while others have been forced to struggle or work for less money.

Take care,

Mike

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

Wow, this turned into quite the thread while I was away!

Mike, that was exactly the point of this post. It wasn't intended to "scold" anyone, or any such thing. Because, as Kay said, they don't have any affect on my business so it really doesn't matter to me.

Really, it was coming from a place of wanting to encourage those who are charging lower fees (and those that are paying them) to move up, because in the end, the lower fees are a lot more trouble than they are worth. For everyone involved.

I might have worded it a bit harsh, but that was really just to drive the point home. If you're paying peanuts for your copy, regardless of how good it is, it is never going to be "good enough" - so you're not going to value the letter enough to send good traffic to it, etc. etc.

And if you're getting peanuts for your work, you're going to do as stated above - and swipe file your way through life.

Getting started with low fees is fine, but honestly, you're going to burn yourself out, and end up with a pretty low reputation, if that is all you do all day. $197 salesletter, cut and paste from things that worked (even if you don't know why they worked) in the past, working 10 hour days to get by... That's no life.

Value your time, value your clients, and value yourself. Price according to the value that you bring.

Honestly, if all you bring is $197 worth of value to the table, then fine - charge that. But I highly doubt any copywriter worth his salt isn't going to be able to bring more value to the table than that, no?

- Cherilyn
The Canadian Copywriter

[Kay King]

Cherilyn -

I thought your original comments were encouraging to writers - it was the sniping that came later that I objected to.

kay

[TimCastleman]

I don't think either side is going to convert the other. I choose to sell based on value and not price. I have a drop dead price I will not work for less than and if they ask for less I tell them I can't do it - I have a family and self respect.

My advice for someone who is starting out? Understand that one cheap client gets you another cheap client. Also it is much easier to go down in price during a negotiation than it is to go up.

Also remember that time doesn't equate money. If I can change your headline and it changes your bottom line and it only takes 20 minutes. Fine.

Oh and my last piece of advice. You could earn $97 bucks flipping burgers for a day or two.

Tim

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

No problem Kay - I didn't think that was directed at me, just wanted to clarify. I didn't mean to start any kind of sniping or arguing, but in between all of that I think we have some constructive discussion going on here.

[Daniel Scott]

Hi guys,

Just wanted to chime in here.

As some of you may know - when I decided I wanted to start writing copy for clients the first thing I did was run a WSO for $97.

HOWEVER... I knew that, for me, this was a strict ONE TIME deal... I wrote four sales letters at that price (earning below minimum wage, in a per hour way of looking at things... because I took my time to do a good job).

From that initial work... I was asked by two people to write another sales letter. I said sure - but this time the letters were $500 each. I know that's still peanuts, but it was certainly good progress for me.

These days (which, let's face it, isn't far from when I started) when someone asks me how much to write a sales letter, I say $2k. That's lower than a lot of copywriters, but it is at least in the ballpark of "respectable". With time I will continue to raise my fees, simply because that's the way I feel comfortable doing things.

Having BOUGHT $97 sales letters before... I can say that yes, they were awful. And the copywriter will immediately turn around and blame you for their lack of results. Early reports for the copy I've written is that it's converting really, really well - although I'll have to wait a little longer to make sure those results stay where they are.

Having said all that, I stand by my work and I am committed to improving my skills - I'm starting coaching with Vin soon, so I think that will really help me out.

What I'm getting at here is that a lot of copywriters would have said that I should have charged at least $1 000 for my first letter, probably more. But I personally didn't feel comfortable doing that. I did with what I felt was right for me and it seems to be working out.

Of course, there's a difference between being a $97 copywriter for a week... and doing it EVERY week.

I'm not saying the way I did things was perfect. If I could go back in time, I may want to do things slightly differently. But there are multiple ways to get to a given destination.

So, Matt, there's nothing wrong with starting at the bottom and clawing your way up - but you probably don't HAVE to. The point is that you're a copywriter - you should charge what you're worth, because if you don't, you are doing yourself AND YOUR CLIENTS a disservice.

Remember, you're in business for yourself. You set your own prices. And, ultimately, you should negotiate from a position of power... and 90% of that is how you feel in your own head.

I had someone ask to write some copy for them the other day. They wanted me but couldn't afford me. No hard feelings - maybe one day they will hire me, maybe not.

One thing I have learned is that there's a high demand for you if you are GOOD at something - and I aim to be one of the best.

I think John's comments here come from a position of love... he is a really nice guy and probably just wants to help you succeed. The point he's making, as I understand it, is that you make your own reality... so why make one where you get paid peanuts?

Finally, Matt, there's no rule that you have to write the books yourself. Pay a ghostwriter, or even take a CB product and write your own salesletter for it and see how it converts. That's hands-on knowledge, and will give you a good idea of how marketing in general works - not just copywriting.

Hopefully my experiences will be able to give some of you some ideas of how you may or may not want to do things. I'm certainly no expert like John or Mike... but I have learned a lot through trial-and-error and hopefully that can be of use to someone.

-Dan

[John_S]

Having BOUGHT $97 sales letters before... I can say that yes, they were awful.

This should be a surprise to no one. Unless you go by the assumption the only variable affecting price is respect.

Somehow this smacks of the "gold star" self esteem issue which has worked its miracle on America's school system. With a dollar sign replacing a gold star.

If clients just hug their copywriter more, everything would work out.

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by John_S

Somehow this smacks of the "gold star" self esteem issue which has worked its miracle on America's school system. With a dollar sign replacing a gold star.

If clients just hug their copywriter more, everything would work out.

John,

I don't really understand what you are saying in your post.

Would you be willing to explain it a little more?

I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed... but I don't really follow.

-Dan

[John_S]

From the initial post kicking off the thread:

No, the real reason I suggest people stop charging $197 for sales copy is one word.

RESPECT

The "real reason" not being poor copywriting, inadequate research, and other quality and skill issues. Just poor self respect. And poor respect from clients.

Then again, later...

But I highly doubt any copywriter worth his salt isn't going to be able to bring more value to the table than that, no?

Essentially copy doesn't matter. You'll get pretty good copy no matter what you pay -- certainly not awful copy.

All that matters is respect.

Might as well chuck the books and forget hiring a copywriter altogether. Just feel good about yourself, and you'll be writing copy like a pro.

Every so often we get a self-proclaimed copywriter who seems to think the only reason Gary Halbert got so much money per letter is a ballsy attitude. This is not so much different than the school abandoning merit for a self esteem based philosophy where test results and subject knowledge don't matter.

The kernel at the heart would appear to be self respect is the key, not skill. Not study. Not achievement. Not results. Not merit.

[Daniel Scott]

John,

Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't really aware of the whole "gold star" issue... now I understand.

Whilst I understand (finally, LOL) your position, and respect it, I think there are other factors that come into play.

Certainly copywriters need to know their stuff, work on results, and all that. And unless I am mistaken, Cherilyn acknowledges this (even if it wasn't clear in this particular post).

However, isn't it possible that it's a partially self-fulfilling prophecy? As Mike said, at $197 a letter, it takes a lot of letters to pay the bills. Hence, less time on individual letters, and hence, lower overall quality.

Isn't it possible that a $197 copywriter who does a lousy job at $197 a letter could do a good job if they had $2 000 per letter?

Desperation can make people do crazy things... and then it becomes a vicious cyclical habit.

I certainly agree with where you're coming from, John - you need the skills. There's no getting around that.

I'm just saying that for some people, this can be a very complex problem.

Having been a pro musician, I've seen it a lot. People are desperate to have money (you know, for rent, food etc... the little stuff) so they grossly undervalue their work to get gigs, which they hate, so they play like crap at them... and the cycle continues.

I'm not saying it's a smart choice. Just saying that sometimes people get desperate and make mistakes.

-Dan

[John_S]

Isn't it possible that a $197 copywriter who does a lousy job at $197 a letter could do a good job if they had $2 000 per letter?

Possible. Not probable. This is the "only difference between poor people and rich people is money" fallacy.

The percentage of lottery winners who fail to hold onto their money is a strong argument against.

As for copywriting and time spent, several assumptions apply. One being the fledgling copywriter will spend their time about as wisely as the veteran expert. Untrue. It is far more probable the newbie will need more time than a veteran.

I played a little and was not the best "sight reader" as a veteran would be. But when you discount practice and skill, that's an easy pitfall to fall into.

Actually, this touches on some interesting issues of psychology and a book some people might like to check out.

Gladwell says most experts accrue about 10,000 hours of practice before they develop their talent. For example, the Beatles spent two years in Germany playing long hours each day (8 hours a day, 7 days a week, for a good chunk of the year) before they became famous.
-- Malcolm Gladwell’s Outliers and the Real Reason You Are a Successful Writer

When interviewed, most American students make the argument talent fosters good grades, so studying is largely a waste of time. Asian students argue talent is the result of dedication and practice, as are good grades.

One of these groups gets better results than the other. Guess which?

A woman I know only consults with programmers making over $115,000 per year. She doesn't care what the programmer's self respect is. All she knows is that earning point marks two different world views.

You can talk 'til you're blue in the face to the wrong world view -- it won't help.

That's an important lesson for copywriters. Forget what's possible -- almost anything is possible. Isn't it highly probable the $197 copywriter will suggest the same tactics they use -- including lower price points and less research and development?

Their world view practically demands they will. That's human nature. The probabilities are they'll look for shortcuts, tricks and gimmicks. What's Bencivenga's trick to better results? A gifted product.

It is a whole different world view.

What's possible is the realm of wishful thinking. Probabilities -- that's copywriting and marketing.

[Daniel Scott]

John,

Thanks for the reply.

For what it's worth you are definitely a copywriter I look up to and I enjoy these kind of discussions very much.

Regarding the "talent vs. practise" thing... I'd say you are only half right.

I practised 6 hours a day at uni. I mean, I worked harder than almost anybody. One of my friends practised about an hour a week, and blew everyone else out of the water... she was incredible.

Of course, then you have the people who have the talent AND the dedication... and they become the elite.

This is just my observations and experience. But I do believe that we each have an innate talent for something to a varying degree. And that this talent has a significant impact on how successful at the chosen task we are.

That's not to say you can't be great if you don't have the talent - simply that natural talent does exist and DOES play a role in your skills.

Personally, I don't have any, at music or at copywriting. The skills I have I have gotten because I've worked my butt off.

I DO have natural talent at other stuff... and I'm good at it despite working at it.

This doesn't really have much relevance to the OP... just wanted to elaborate on a point you made in your post.

-Dan

[John_S]

This doesn't really have much relevance to the OP

Really? I think world view may just come out in the copy angle, time spent per project, the process used, and the result.

And it might well come out in whether you suggest changes to the product to improve copy, or lard on more gimmicks to "make people buy."

[Daniel Scott]

John,

I agree, but I was saying that MY rant about "talent vs. dedication" wasn't really relevant... not what you were saying.

-Dan

[Johnny12345]

Originally Posted by Cherilyn Lester

Okay, so this might tickle a few feathers, but I'm just going to come out and say it.

I could tell you not to charge $197 for your sales copy out of professional courtesy, but it doesn't devalue the work of other copywriters... In fact, it makes our work MORE valuable.

I could tell you not to charge $197 for a salesletter because you'll earn more if you charge more, but that isn't necessarily true. If you suck, you'll earn about the same. But you will have to work a little bit less (not much, mind you.)

Cherilyn,

You have the right to your opinion, of course, but I think your post is full of holes. It seems to completely throw the law of supply and demand out the window. In fact, to some extent, you seem to advocate price fixing by suggesting (or, at least, implying) that no one should charge less than you do... for their own good, of course.

No, the real reason I suggest people stop charging $197 for sales copy is one word.

RESPECT

I'm not talking about the respect you give, either. I'm talking about the respect you GET.

Think about this for a minute... When you buy, say, a kitchen gadget at a department store for $200 - you have a certain respect for that item. You invested in it, and want it to last a long time. If you buy the same kitchen gadget at a dollar store, how much are you going to respect it?

Not at all.

Because if you really cared about the item, you would have bought a better quality one. Dollar stores are notorious for bad quality products, of course, and (the number one reason) if it breaks, you can replace it easily. After all, it was only a dollar!

Now apply this to your copywriting.

If you're priced at 1/10th of what even the most newbie copywriters are charging (at least, the ones with confidence), you're going to get DOLLAR STORE shoppers. They're not going to expect you to be any good, so they're going to get their mucky mitts in there and try and "fix" you so your copy is better. Then when it sucks, they blame it on you, but aren't too angry because "After all, it was only a dollar!"

You can be replaced, and in all likelihood (since the client has no real expectation of you doing well) you WILL be.

Plus you'll have no respect from your peers... Your copy could be fantastic, but we'll have a hard time believing it. Why? Because it takes CONFIDENCE to charge real fees for your work, and it takes CONFIDENCE to write better than half-assed sales copy.

If your "respect" theory is correct, does that mean I have no self-respect for myself if I drive an inexpensive sub-compact car? How much, exactly, would self-respect cost me? Would a $30,000 car be adequate to regain it? I'm just wondering where the "self-respect line" should be drawn for various other non-kitchen-gadget items. (You've already established that I should avoid kitchen gadgets that cost less than $200. Thank you.)

Worst of all, you'll have no respect for yourself. How much respect do you think the 40 year old lady working part time at McDonalds has for herself? NONE, because she doesn't believe she can do better. You'll never be taken seriously at those rates, and you know it. But you don't care, because you don't think you deserve more - you don't respect yourself.

Apparently, we have very different views of the world. When I see a 40-year-old woman working at McDonalds, I have admiration, respect, and empathy for her. In my mind, I can only imagine that she is doing what she has to do in order to feed her children or pay her mortgage.

As such, rather than thinking that she lacks self-respect, I see her as having tremendous strength. Would it be more dignified to let her children starve until a six-figure job offer comes through from a fortune 500 company?

Please, for yourself, for your clients, and for the reputation of the warrior forum - charge what you're worth.

And if your copy really is only worth $197, then for the love of G*d find another profession.

- Cherilyn
The Canadian Copywriter

Most buyers are smart enough to know that they probably don't need a "killer" $10,000 sales letter to sell their first $7 ebook. Robert Plank recently reported that he made $30,000 in one month primarily by selling his own products with his own copy. The interesting thing is that he readily admits that he doesn't write "great" copy. He states, in fact, that it's just "good enough." So, sometimes, "good enough" really is good enough.

Copywriters charge based on their ability and experience level, their portfolio, and what the market will bear. I strongly suspect that there is a need for copywriting services all across the price spectrum. So suggesting a minimum price seems silly and self-serving.

You don't see John Carlton, Dan Kennedy, or Clayton Makepeace in here complaining about low-priced copy, do you? Nope. If you're a good mid or high-end copywriter, there's no need to berate the little fishes...

Can't the low, mid, and high-end copywriters just get along?

Johnny

[Bruce Wedding]

Originally Posted by Johnny12345

Robert Plank recently reported that he made $30,000 in one month primarily by selling his own products with his own copy. The interesting thing is that he readily admits that he doesn't write "great" copy. He states, in fact, that it's just "good enough." So, sometimes, "good enough" really is good enough.

Actually, Robert is a very good copywriter. Do you know why? Because he's written dozens of sales letters. This gets back to the 10,000 hours of practice john_s is talking about.

I THOUGHT I knew how to write copy after reading all the classic books. When I actually put it in practice, I didn't know squat about actually applying what I'd learned. I would say it took me 2 dozen sales letters before I really got it. And I'm a smart SOB that has always been considered a good writer.

As for "good enough" being good enough, that's another debate. I'll tell you this much, no multimillion dollar direct marketing company thinks like that.

[Johnny12345]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

Actually, Robert is a very good copywriter. Do you know why? Because he's written dozens of sales letters. This gets back to the 10,000 hours of practice john_s is talking about.

I THOUGHT I knew how to write copy after reading all the classic books. When I actually put it in practice, I didn't know squat about actually applying what I'd learned. I would say it took me 2 dozen sales letters before I really got it. And I'm a smart SOB that has always been considered a good writer.

As for "good enough" being good enough, that's another debate. I'll tell you this much, no multimillion dollar direct marketing company thinks like that.

Bruce,

Then we agree. I think Robert's good, too. But, before he became a good copywriter, he didn't hire Clayton Makepeace to write his sales letters. He didn't need that level of expertise. However, a multi-million dollar company might, very well, call Clayton or Carlton.

My point was, simply, that a demand exists for copywriting services at both low and high price points. So why beat up on the little guys? It seems petty.

Johnny

[Bruce Wedding]

Originally Posted by Johnny12345

So why beat up on the little guys? It seems petty.

Are you saying that I am beating up on "the little guys"?

I hope not because I don't care at all about them or their prices. I am not for hire but even when I was, my rates continued to rise as the number of cheap copywriters proliferated. And one of the most famous, Nicholas Cole, is a friend of mine.

My personal opinion, that you're selling yourself short, is something I'm entitled to. It's not beating up on you.

[Johnny12345]

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

Are you saying that I am beating up on "the little guys"?

Bruce,

No, not you. I was referring to the first post in this thread.

Johnny

[ndcole78]

I think that this is a great post or at least something for us copywriters to talk about.

Let me first say that if you're looking for good copy, it's true that you'll have a much better chance at conversions by investing more money for your copy, so those like Vin who charge $10,000+, Mike H., Ray Edwards, Bruce Wedding, $4,000 +, they are all worth the money if you can afford to pay it.

However, I know that on this forum in particular, over 80% of the marketers here are looking for cheap, quick copy, so most of the buyers here won't pay the high fees for copy. These guys, however, are all great at what they do and they should be paid well for it--copywriting is a skill that takes years to master.

As for me, as my friend Bruce stated, I'm probably the most famous here on cheap copy because I started it, though at the time, I had no idea that I was cutting into the pockets of some copywriters on this forum years ago.

Had I known that, I probably would have never ever started it---but the trend was headed there anyway.

With that said---I've always been a writer. i love doing it and I would do it for free sometimes (My wife would kill me though-LOL!) because it makes me happy that others like my ability--Plus I'm affecting their lives using my God-given talent--as long as I don't overwork myself, which I did do with a copywriting membership I created months ago (That was a stupid mistake, so I left that alone).

Many already know that I could charge thousands of dollars for letters based on my skill level--sometimes I do, most of the times I don't.

I've seen many copywriters offering cheap letters, but for the most part, the copy is not good---at all.

For me, I've worked with the best and yes, the gurus who would pay top dollar for copy do come to me--a lot looking for a good deal.

For example, a few of these guys have been mentioned by a few of you. I've worked with them in the past. Check out a few letters. I spent maybe 3 hours on each of them.

Robert Plank: Sales Page Tactics with Robert Plank!

Ewen Chia: Ewen Chia's Instant Bestsellers!

Folusho Orokunle where he partnered with guru Jermaine Griggs: Internet Marketing Coach|Internet Marketing Consultant

My point is that you can get a good writer for cheap, but you'll have to search like hell to find one that's really good.

A little advice copywriters: Don't let anyone dictate to you what to charge your services for---If you feel fine doing it, then do it. It's your business, so run it like YOU want to run it and if you step on a few toes, then that's their problem, so don't feel bad about it. It's business---either you eat or they eat.

But like most high-charging copywriters always say--You're not taking anything away from them anyway.

Paying for good copy is the best investment that you can make. if you can find a great writer with a track record of getting clients results and is open to cutting you a deal, then go with him or her.

But don't settle for a sub-par writer---if you have to pay thousands of dollars, then do it. You'll get your money back and some in profits.

By the way: Most copywriters situation will be different than mine, but I can afford to charge less for copy because I have 10 streams of income coming in--on and offline with products, services---I even raise cattle and grow pine trees and sell for profit to lumber companies-----that's how I can get away with charging less because it's not my only stream of income.

I just love writing. i know that it's the gift that God gave me, so I use it to help others--that's how God continues to bless me in all areas of my life.

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

Removing this post, because apparently it was a futile effort to defend what didn't really need defense in the first place.

A big warm thank-you to all of those who understood my intentions, and the meaning behind the post.

- Cherilyn

[Johnny12345]

Cherilyn,

The thing is... your tone didn't sound like you were really trying to help those poor, unfortunate, low-priced copywriters. Instead, it sounded like you were whining that they were taking away your customers by undercutting you. In other words, your post sounded self-serving.

But, I stand corrected. Apparently, you were only trying to help. In your last post, your heartfelt "thank you" -- and the happy face at the very end -- helped me see that the venom you spewed was done strictly with the best of intentions. Thank you for shining the light of your elite copywriting wisdom upon us.

The issue wasn't not respecting YOURSELF for buying a piece of junk. It was not respecting the piece of junk. Tell me, if you drove a car that you paid $100 for, how much would you respect it? Probably about the same as everyone else I know who drives $100 cars - not at all, because it was only $100. You haven't invested much into the vehicle. It doesn't matter to you.

OK. Now I'm really confused. If I agree to show the $100 car respect, is it then OK to own one? Does the $100 car know -- or even care -- whether I respect it? Will it run better and get better mileage if I respect it? And, if not, what is the price-point cutoff for a car that can be respected? This "respect" theory of yours is rather befuddling. Is it some sort of new-age, "quantum physics" thing?

No, copywriters do not price based on ability, experience, portfolio, and the market. They price based on VALUE. Yes, all of the above things influence their value, but the bottom line is, with more experience, more ability, a better portfolio, and a better market, a copywriter brings more VALUE to the table and therefore can charge more.

The above paragraph is priceless. It is, perhaps, the finest example of circular reasoning that I have ever encountered. It should be in logic textbooks. No really, it should.

But, now, it's confession time...

In truth, the ONLY reason I replied to your first post was because of your "40 year-old woman at McDonalds" comment. It seemed cold and disparaging. In fact, it actually shocked me a bit. After all, why would you assume that she has no respect for herself? That's what you said -- in capital letters, no less. You said she has "NONE." Why do you assume the worst? Where you see weakness, I see strength. Why is it wrong to assume the best in people?

If it wasn't for that single comment, I would have been content to let you ramble on about the evils of $197 copy all day long...

Johnny

P.S. Oops... I almost forgot to add a happy face.

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

*sigh* Okay, you know what - my entire post was off base. It was entirely self serving, because I really want clients who can't afford my fees to stretch their family budgets and try to scrape it together. Those are my ideal clients, and you know it.

C'mon, Johnny - you know the point I was getting at. If you don't respect the car, or the gadget, or the copywriter, you're going to beat the heck out of it and toss it at the first opportunity because it is replaceable. If you invest in it, you're going to respect it more, right? Why is that so hard to understand?

I'm editing my original post, and removing the reference to the McDonalds worker. Maybe I'm wrong - maybe she does have more self respect than I could possibly imagine. That is beside the point.

Thank you for turning a constructive discussion, however, into a discussion of my intentions with the post. It is much appreciated.

$197 copy isn't evil. It is fine. But for people who take their copywriting career seriously, or their business seriously, I'm trying to encourage them to invest more into it - because they will get more out of it.

Maybe respect wasn't the right word. Maybe it was "value" I was reaching for. Either way...

Oh yeah - happy face.

- Cherilyn