Is it possible to find "affordable" Sales Letter Writers?

[MontelloMarketing]

Anomoly...

First, Mabuhay!

If you're getting 2-3% for blind traffic then I have a ton of work for you and you will no longer be poor.

Please send me a sample of your 2-3% converting sales copy.

[mailco]

I guess it would be the same story to find a good artist or actor or any good talent for $97, chances are, never in a million years.

[mailco]

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

Anomoly...

First, Mabuhay!

If you're getting 2-3% for blind traffic then I have a ton of work for you and you will no longer be poor.

Please send me a sample of your 2-3% converting sales copy.

Yes, me too!

[Anomaly1974]

I will see what I can find on my cds. I am just now rebuilding from nothing but personally, I thought those numbers were pretty average. I know when I was doing real world marketing, I expected nothing less than five percent from a "blind" mailing.

Now before I go making an ass out of myself, by blind traffic I mean no PPC or anything, just whoever happens along the sites. PPC I have never had the luxury of working with. The only sales pages I have done for others were for highly targeted lists in areas I know a bit about.

If you are serious, I can do a couple of free pages, test them of your own accord and if you get good results, give me a kick back and a testimonial perhaps.

In the meantime, I will break out some cds today ... I lost my old website and pretty much everything else so right now I am working with a cd player on a PII with an 8gig hard drive but I can swing by the net cafe with my DVDs this week and see what I can find.

And no, I am not trying to cut anybody's throat here. I am a fairly good marketer for impulse markets and that is where my experience is but yes, I am desperate too LOL (What I would give for a new laptop eh?) so if you are serious and you have a small project you do not mind "risking", I will happy to provide you with a sales page and see what you do with real testing. Mind you, I am not talking about safelists like I am using at the moment ... but with "real traffic" I am confident that you will get good results. Mind you, in the past, those numbers come from continuing to work with my clients (on a sliding scale I had to) and testing and tweaking but I am certainly open to any work I can get at the moment.

Now, I cannot think of any more excuses for failure LOL but seriously, if you have some projects that you want to test it out on, I am more than happy to work with you. In the meantime, I have a request up for a critique of my newest sales letter so you may want to look at that to find out what you think ... mind you that was a two-hour job and not for a paying client so it may not be a great example.

Just my two cents

[MontelloMarketing]

Just send me the best representation of your best online sales letter work.

[devynspirit]

Originally Posted by Cherilyn Lester

It is possible to get a sales letter writer for $97, and although you might find a hidden gem - most won't be spectacular at that price. In fact, many people I've seen haven't been able to find someone who can write in clear English, let alone persuasively, for that amount.

After seeing plenty of warriors come in here, ask the same question, and post their disappointment - my best advice to you, if you only have $97 to spend, is to either A) buy a couple of books on copywriting and learn it yourself or B) write a salesletter modeled after a successful letter in your niche, and then have a reputable copywriter from the WSO forum critique it (I know Judy (zapseo) does this from time to time, her last offer was I think $97 - right within your budget - and she is amazing at what she does...)

So to answer your question, yes and no... Yes, you can get a copywriter for $97 - they will either critique what you've written, or write you something you probably can't use. I know what I'd spend my money on!

- Cherilyn

You always offer some great advice, thank you!

[copywarrior]

Originally Posted by tgk

Hey guys,

Do you think it is possible to get a GOOD sales letter writer at an affordable price? like is it possible to get a sales-writer at $97? I know we have some expert copywriters here, So I am not trying to insult anyone with it.

I am just trying to get some help?
I dont think I could write sales letters myself, so anything would be appreciated.

Cheers,
TGK

Hi TGK,

Yes it's possible to find a writer to do your copy at that price. Especially if it's a noob. Do check your PM inbox tonight. Like Cherilyn said, YOU might just find a hidden GEM

Cheers to fruition!
Jay B.

[vistad]

If you offer peanuts you get a monkey. On the other hand you could try the Philippines or India, US peanuts would be like coconuts for those two countries.

[MontelloMarketing]

Originally Posted by senve

I found a software that writes you as many Sales letters as you need, and it costs just $97 once.

It is obviously not my website, but I guess it answers the question: Yes, affordable sales letters writers can be found !

If you make 10 sales letters with this software, the price is just 9.7 usd per sales letter

B.U.R.P.I.E.S. - makes copywriting easy

Senve... come on now... I thought you had learned a valuable lesson here. Don't slide backward.

This software is not going to sell anything for you. Trust me on this. You'd be wasting another $97.

[David Raybould]

Originally Posted by senve

If you make 10 sales letters with this software, the price is just 9.7 usd per sales letter

That may be true, but surely the desired
result here is to make sales, not salesletters?

When your ten salesletters don't make a single
sale between them, you're still out 97 bucks.

Sorry dude.

-David Raybould

[MontelloMarketing]

To my fellow copywriters...

This thread (and the dozens just like it) has really begun to tire me out. So... I have a new tack. Maybe this will stop these threads from cropping up..

The original question was: Is it possible to find "affordable" Sales Letter Writers?

My new answer is "no... it's not. Bye now."

Maybe THAT should be a sticky.

[dorothydot]

Yes. You are right. We copywriters are here basically to help each other learn, share our experiences and grow in our craft... at least, those are my reasons for participating.

I am NOT here to provide cheap labor to demanding gimme-gimmie people. That is rude and demeaning.

Non-copywriters don't understand how close our craft is to writing poetry. Why? Because when we succeed in producing effective copy, the wordings and tone are so familiar, so natural that when you read it, you think: Jeez, that's exactly how I think. I could write that in my sleep!

NOT! It's like watching any expert at work. They are sooo skilled in their craft that they make it look easy. Take an electrician replacing a light fixture. He doesn't even turn off the electricity; just unscrews the old one, wires in the new then screws it in. No problem, right? Only took like 15 mins, tops.

But you bet-ter darn sight cut off that power before YOU try replacing a light fixture! And I suspect it'd take you a whole lot longer to get it done. Not to mention the likelihood of blowing a fuse when you try it out, lol.

So we do deserve respect for our expertise. Visitors to this forum need to recognize this!

Thanks,
Dot

[Ashley Ann]

Yes, it is. Though more difficult to find. I have a GREAT writer that does salesletters for under $300. Though of course, then you have to test and tweak.

[DougBarger]

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

LOL And I say that because I don't know how to IM speak "Spitting soda out of my nose laughing."

Splorf, Vin. The word is splorf.


Urban Dictionary: splorf

[webdude2000]

Hi

After reading this thread, I don't believe a good sale copy can be found for cheap.

The objective is sales not pages. I know if the requirements to create a sales page and have done a few but when I compare mine to great copy writers, mine is crap and I now only use copy writers.

The sales from the sales page is the most important aspect of your product. No matter how good your product is, if you have a crap sales page, you will not sell much. It is not about the page, it is about the emotional and psychological triggers.

Having been working/partnering with a great if not awesome copy writer who has posted to this thread, I am extremely impressed. This is the difference between a successful launch and just putting something up on the internet.

Yes, there are those few gems who are good and may charge less than $1,000 but as people have said you get what you pay for.

Remember one of the most successful ways to launch a product is via JVs and trust me if your sales copy is not up to scratch then you won't get many JVs promoting your product nor affiliates via Clickbank.

As for those software applications that create sales pages for you, I have tried a few as well as sales page templates and although they create and format the sales pages correctly they do not target those sales triggers. I find these apps a complete waste of time.

Regards
Mark

[PaulMartinezCopywriting]

Originally Posted by senve

Great post mate.

More than 7 GOOD copywriters PMed me since I started to look for one here on this forum, and ALL-INCLUDED good writing deal is $197.

So those who say $5000 is the minimum for a good copywriter,
they just want to hit the bank by fooling some really naive dreamers...

Well, people have offered you some good advice, which you've chosen to ignore. With copy, like anything else in life, you get what you pay for.

The truth is, it's pretty obvious from your posts you have no idea what you're doing, or what good copy even looks like. You are going to waste $200 on some copy-whore who probably can't even sell you on the value of their own services.

Think about that. A copywriter is, in essence, a salesperson who uses the printed word to persuade prospects to part with their money.

The people who eagerly messaged you looking for a measly $200 job suck so badly at selling that they can't even negotiate a good paycheck for themselves. And you're going to hire them to write the sales letter for your product? Hell, if they can't even sell themselves into a living wage...do you honestly think they can sell ANYTHING?

Look, save yourself some money and a lot of headaches. Go to Amazon.com. Buy the following books, read them carefully, and write your own copy. You will get better results than the $200 streetwalkers and learn something useful at the same time.

The list:

Tested Advertising Methods by John Caples

How to Write a Good Advertisement by Vic Schwab

The Ultimate Sales Letter by Dan Kennedy

The Adweek Copywriting Handbook by Joe Sugarnan

Hypnotic Marketing by Joe Vitale

My Life in Advertising/Scientific Advertising by Claude Hopkins

and...

The Robert Collier Letter Book

The three "Must read" books are the ones by Hopkins, Caples, Schwab, and the Collier book. The rest are very, very good but not as important as those four.

Read them thoroughly and then apply what you learned. The Caples book alone will make you a better copywriter than anyone who will drop their drawers for $200.

[PaulMartinezCopywriting]

Originally Posted by dorothydot

Yes. You are right. We copywriters are here basically to help each other learn, share our experiences and grow in our craft... at least, those are my reasons for participating.

I am NOT here to provide cheap labor to demanding gimme-gimmie people. That is rude and demeaning.

Non-copywriters don't understand how close our craft is to writing poetry. Why? Because when we succeed in producing effective copy, the wordings and tone are so familiar, so natural that when you read it, you think: Jeez, that's exactly how I think. I could write that in my sleep!

NOT! It's like watching any expert at work. They are sooo skilled in their craft that they make it look easy. Take an electrician replacing a light fixture. He doesn't even turn off the electricity; just unscrews the old one, wires in the new then screws it in. No problem, right? Only took like 15 mins, tops.

But you bet-ter darn sight cut off that power before YOU try replacing a light fixture! And I suspect it'd take you a whole lot longer to get it done. Not to mention the likelihood of blowing a fuse when you try it out, lol.

So we do deserve respect for our expertise. Visitors to this forum need to recognize this!

Thanks,
Dot

Awesome, awesome post Dot! The analogy to poetry is a great one--my concentrations in college were fiction writing and poetry, and copywriting is very similar in the absolute precision required--complete emotional connection with no wasted words. Not an easy task.

I remember going on 24 hour Kerouac-esque writing binges, followed by 24 hours of sleeping and occasioanlly crawling out of bed to eat.

Writing, good writing, is exhausting. I've spent 6 weeks living and training with professional fighters in the jungles of Thailand and that's the ONLY thing that has ever come close to the level of exhaustion those writing binges inflicted on me.

Expecting someone to kill themselves cranking out a killer sales letter for peanuts IS insulting, and demeaning...and the copywriters who accept those fees should be ashamed of themselves. Not for being so cheap, but for taking someone's money and delivering a crappy product. Total lack of integrity IMO.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by dorothydot

Non-copywriters don't understand how close our craft is to writing poetry.

Poets do. We may not know that particular form... but we still recognise it as art.

[Roshan C]

Nice - This thread got Sticky, I've updated the main thread a bit. Hope it all helps.

Cheers,
Roshan

[djleon1]

Anyone reading this who is in the market for an "affordable" copywriter beware. I used WF to hire someone to write me some "affordable" copy ($125) and it was complete and utter garbage. The writer explained to me that this was cheap but they would accept as they had the time and blah blah blah.

Anyway I got my money back from them and deleted the copy from my hard drive as it just hurt my eyes to read it. Lesson learned - I now KNOW I need to spend some real money if I want to get great copy from a pro who will work with me. I know a lot of copywriters have been on this thread explaining this point but I just wanted to give a customers perspective on it.

Also - the hackwork of a sales copy in my link below is my own after trolling other sales pages and putting my terrible talent to work (though it converts pretty well)/

[sarahberra]

This is very true. Sales letters are not cheap. The lowest price you can probably find is about $300. If you go any less than that you may not get the results you need. You can also learn to write sales copy on your own. You can do it! Have you ever check out Wealthy Affiliate? I just signed up and I am learning how to write sales copy. I have worked as a freelance writer for the past 2 years, writing for magazines, and my own web sites, but now its time for me to get serious about marketing. Send me a message for more info.

[snowtigress]

I hear you guys, loud and clear. Finding a good copywriter for less than 1k is difficult. Writing copy LOOKS easy, but there's a hidden structure to it that takes forever to learn and most people starting a business just don't have that kind of time. When you're interviewing a potential copywriter, ask them how long they've been studying copy. (That's right, I said studying, NOT flipping through the latest "How to Write Copy" book). This simple question will help you weed out who is good and who is a standard writer pretending they can write copy. It takes a solid year of studying to be great enough to charge 1k and up. The ones charging even more have been in the biz for several years. It's not cheap, folks, but these people are the ones that make YOU money. It does pay off in the long run.

About me: I'm what you would call a "copywriter in training." I've been studying copy for 6 months now from a professional copywriting course (cost 3k). AND I have a mentor that’s been in the biz several years that checks my work before I hand it over to clients. I'm really sorry to hear some of you have been ripped off by people that do zero research or just can't write. That's not what real copywriters do. Follow the suggestion I mentioned above and you'll weed out the fakes. If anyone has attempted to write their own sales letter, feel free to send it to me for critique. I will offer Warrior members 3 FREE suggestions on how to improve your letter. That’s a good-will gesture those greedy fakes won’t offer!

Go ahead and send me your letter now before the weekend arrives to get some useful tips.

PS. I just joined Warrior and I'd love to get to know you all and see how this site works, so feel free to send welcome emails!

[sarahberra]

Hello my friend! Great post. A good copywriter at an affordable price is hard to find but you know that I think they should be paid the big bucks. Its not easy! I get frustrated when I see people trying to offer writers $5 for a unique article with keywords added. I mainly write for Demand Studios and small magazines, but I am trying to learn sales copywriting. I have so much to learn because my writing style is not very "sales" orientated. However, I can always learn. I am looking for the right training course. What course are you taking? I want to learn about grant proposal writing and how to write sales copy.

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

I'm going to beg to differ with a few of the guys above this post with their statements that you will receive absolutely crap copywriting for anything less than a four figure sum, let alone someone who is charging close to $100.

The bottom line fact is, that there are some good potential copywriters out there who just starting out upon this journey, who are prepared like myself, to charge around that $100 figure, for the short term.

Personally, I find it a little rude that they would cast us all in the same category, these guys who are presently charging thousands of dollars per copy, stating that our writing of sales copy is absolutely crap.

You don't see these more 'economical' copywriters lamblasting the much more experienced copywriters here, casting aspersions upon their work in such a derogatory manner, so why should it be any more acceptable that they can do the same to other people, that are just starting out down this road?

Everyone has to make a start somewhere and setting one's own business pricing structure is too, a part of that process - finding out what works for them and what doesn't work for them.

Of course it is blindingly obvious that most of us in this 'cheap' category know that we are not charging enough at present - the important point though is being brave enough to take that action and to implement a strategy plan for future success and growth.

Now, I've actually looked over the websites of more than a few of the copywriters here on this forum and I've got to say, that several of these very experienced copywriters do actually have spelling typo's and errors on the very websites where they are trying to advertise and market your own services, which struck me to be perfectly honest as rather odd - given their vast amounts of experience and copywriting knowledge.

One copywriter (I forget who now), went so far as to have one sentence that in anyone's language, made not one iota of sense, in anyone's language, let alone English. It was in fact, an absolutely appalling use of business English if I ever I clapped eyes on such!

It was that, which actually gave me the courage to believe that I could learn this copywriting craft, for I know that whilst my own sentence structure may not be 100% spot on perfection - if they can make mistakes, then certainly I can be allowed to make a few too.

One guy above, stated that he's not seeing any of these cheap copywriters post up any links to their own work online (throwing down the gauntlet so to speak), so allow me to be the first here, to take him up on that challenge and post up a link to my own copywriting work:

Wordpress Squeeze Pages: Wordpress Squeeze Page Generator :Wordpress Squeeze Pages

Now, I charged that gentleman well under $100 for his sales copy.

Do you think for that money he was ripped off?

Do you think for that kind of money, that the work supplied to him was absolutely crap and of very low quality?

I'd be interested in reading a few more views regarding this position.

Many thanks for giving me this opportunity to present an opposing view.






Mark Andrews
IMCopywriting

PS How long did that sales copy take me on the link above?

Answer: About 4 (four) hours with the keyword research included for search engine optimization purposes.

[MikeHumphreys]

Sounds like someone touched a nerve with you.

Originally Posted by WordPro

Now, I charged that gentleman well under $100 for his sales copy.

Do you think for that money he was ripped off?

Do you think for that kind of money, that the work supplied to him was absolutely crap and of very low quality?

It's one of the better sales letters in the sub $100 copywriting fee category that I've seen in a while.

The problem you could run into is with projects that take you far more than 4 hours to complete.

For example, I'm working on a salesletter now for a very comprehensive non-IM product. I have about 50 hours in so far and I'm not finished yet. That's reviewing every part of the product... research... writing... editing... polishing the copy... editing some more... polishing some more before turning it over to the client.

If I were to have charged this client a $100, I'd be making less than $2 per hour or about 1/3 of minimum wage in the U.S.

As I said in an earlier post, the downside to doing low-priced copywriting is you need to turn out a higher volume of work each month to make a living wage (whatever that amount is for you). The higher the workload, the higher the likelihood of suffering burnout or an injury like carpal tunnel syndrome.

Ultimately it comes down to you charging what you feel your time and expertise are worth to your clients. The market will then confirm you are indeed worth what you're asking.

Best of luck,

Mike

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

No, it didn't touch a nerve, not in the absolute slightest.

I was merely presenting another side of the coin, that is all, nothing more and certainly nothing less.

As I stated, new copywriters have to start somewhere.

Simply lumping all sub $1k copywriters into a 'crap' category is simply not on, that is my point.

As we build up our portfolio and copywriting experience and move on from testing the waters, of course it is natural that our rates increase too.

Kindest regards to you too.

[MontelloMarketing]

Originally Posted by WordPro

Personally, I find it a little rude that they would cast us all in the same category, these guys who are presently charging thousands of dollars per copy, stating that our writing of sales copy is absolutely crap.

You can't be a good writer until you're a good reader. If you read back through the advice most of it speaks of what little chance there is of finding someone good... NOT that none are good.

Now, I've actually looked over the websites of more than a few of the copywriters here on this forum and I've got to say, that several of these very experienced copywriters do actually have spelling typo's and errors on the very websites where they are trying to advertise and market your own services, which struck me to be perfectly honest as rather odd - given their vast amounts of experience and copywriting knowledge.

One copywriter (I forget who now), went so far as to have one sentence that in anyone's language, made not one iota of sense, in anyone's language, let alone English. It was in fact, an absolutely appalling use of business English if I ever I clapped eyes on such!

"Business english" has nothing to do with most selling. Learn that before charging a client your first dollar.

Wordpress Squeeze Pages: Wordpress Squeeze Page Generator :Wordpress Squeeze Pages

Now, I charged that gentleman well under $100 for his sales copy.

Do you think for that money he was ripped off?

Do you think for that kind of money, that the work supplied to him was absolutely crap and of very low quality?

I'd be interested in reading a few more views regarding this position.

Many thanks for giving me this opportunity to present an opposing view.

No idea if it was money well spent. How much money did it make? How many sales did the guy make?

About 4 (four) hours with the keyword research included for search engine optimization purposes.

Keyword optimization doesn't belong on a sales page... Learn that before charging a client your second dollar.


You see Mark...

Copywriting is supposed to make the sale. It's not supposed to fill the page... not supposed to get optimization... it's not supposed to make the client's wife happy. It's supposed to jam money into the client's pocket.

Those who can do that are worth their weight in gold. Those who can't... are worth nothing.

What you have in this thread are people who are at some level between the two. And most charge accordingly.

Sure... there are some vastly underpriced copywriters here. Guys who are worth many more times than they charge. I know this for a fact because I have students of mine who post on the WF. Some are mid to high 4 figure copywriters charging low 4 figures... Others are 5 figure copywriters charging high 4 figures. Neither will be for long but since it's early in their careers they can be had cheap.

Are there any unpolished gems in the mix who are worth thousands but charge hundreds? Maybe... who knows?

There might be a couple. But should a marketer (especially one who is low on funds) hang his success or failure on an unproven entity?

Let's say I need new tires on my car.

I could buy a trusted Goodyear tire for a couple hundred bucks each... or I could even buy some unknown... untested chinese brand for $25 each.

Which tires do I trust to carry around my infant nephew and niece? Those chi-tires might be great... but probably not. Still they MIGHT be. But am I willing to take that chance? Even if I'm flat broke with only $25 in my pocket I would buy a used tire from a company with a track record before considering the chi-tire.

For many marketers their business is their baby... their infant...

So... sure... absolutely there are great copywriters working cheap. I've just never seen anyone pay a couple hundred dollars for a sales letter and come away from the enterprise with a profit.

So... pay maybe 1000 more and make a few grand...

Or pay a hundred bucks and more often than not kiss that hundred goodbye... plus kiss the money you spent on traffic goodbye... and kiss your time goodbye...

Which one was really the expensive one?

And let me repeat one more time... NOT EVERY CHEAP COPYWRITER SUCKS! But finding one you can successfully trust your livelihood to... that's often impossible.

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

So, in effect you are still reiterating the point to which I disagree, with reference to your above comments, that all copywriters who do not charge thousands of dollars for each sales copy supplied, are in effect, not worth anything at all to the individual or person ordering said service?

Surely that flies in the face of business convention?

For by your reply given above, you are in effect saying that there is no room in this particular industry for up and coming copywriters, unless immediately, they start charging thousands of dollars for each writing project undertaken and by price alone, which to be honest for the sake of this discussion is a rather mute point in my opinion - anyone not charging less than several thousand dollars for work submitted, could actually prove to be more expensive in the long run?

Is that what you are saying?

For if so, I personally believe said opinion flies in the face of any business commonsense.

My point, my dear fellow, is that it is possible to find a very good copywriter for the rates as outlined in the OP.

All copywriters have to start off from somewhere, at least you have to take your hat off to anyone, who amid one of the greatest financial meltdown's in history, is at least prepared to give it a go.

I'm sure when you first started off, you didn't immediately set out charging clients $5k plus per sales letter and no doubt too, your copywriting supplied, was not 100% perfect. It's taken you time to get to that position, where you can charge those kind of figures.

But simply lamblasting the lower rates based copywriters, tarnishing them all with the same collective brush and/or label, in effect saying that individuals who buy into their services have a screw missing or worse, that my friend is absolute sheer poppycock and codswallop.

Of course, there are many people out there who cannot write for toffee, let alone compile a reasonable and high converting sales letter, but to tarnish all newer copywriters with this kind of attitude, well, words almost fail me.

The fact is, is that there are always going to be some very good potential copywriters appearing on the scene and if these writers decide to go at it part or full time, they are fully allowed to charge whatever the hec that they want to, whilst they test the waters and/or dip their toes in.

Just because they are in the sub $1k league at the moment doesn't mean that said writers need to put up with undertone comments, basically saying that their work is a complete load of rubbish.

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by WordPro

The bottom line fact is, that there are some good potential copywriters out there who just starting out upon this journey, who are prepared like myself, to charge around that $100 figure, for the short term.

Psst... Wanna know a really cool secret?

All things being equal, the more you charge, the better client you're going to get. Just sayin'...

I'm a bit puzzlied by your righteous indignation here. You seem to want to prove that you're an exception, not the rule.

Fine, let's agree that you are... so what?

What does that mean?

How many letters do you intend to write for $100.

Presumably, as few as possible until you can command higher fees, right?

DING!

Wait a minute... why should anyone ever pay you a penny over $100 for your copy?

Because it's BETTER, right? Because you're PROVEN, right?

Right... and THAT is why more experienced copywriters bag on cheap hacks.

But more importantly, how did this become about YOU anyway? You're up in arms because you've elected to charge too little or don't have the experience yet to charge more?

I must be missing something. The OP got a nice stiff rogering from his $200 copywriter adventure and you're pissed because we said "we told ya so.."?

Surely we can agree that there are far more under-qualified $100 copywriters than good ones, yes?

If so, then surely you can see the sanity in expressing that thought in a Copywriting Forum, yes?

Brian

[MontelloMarketing]

Originally Posted by WordPro

So, in effect you are still reiterating the point to which I disagree, with reference to your above comments, that all copywriters who do not charge thousands of dollars for each sales copy supplied, are in effect, not worth anything at all to the individual or person ordering said service?

Seriously... where do you get this stuff from? I said... "NOT EVERY CHEAP COPYWRITER SUCKS! But finding one you can successfully trust your livelihood to... that's often impossible."

Operative words are "not every" and "often impossible." To clarify further... Cheap copywriters are often worth what they charge. But some are better than their prices. Some are underpriced.

Surely that flies in the face of business convention?

I don't know what business convention is. I never studied business. I studied marketing and copywriting from some of the best teachers on the planet.

For by your reply given above, you are in effect saying that there is no room in this particular industry for up and coming copywriters, unless immediately, they start charging thousands of dollars for each writing project undertaken and by price alone, which to be honest for the sake of this discussion is a rather mute point in my opinion - anyone not charging less than several thousand dollars for work submitted, could actually prove to be more expensive in the long run?

Wow... holy long unruly sentence, batman! I'm not saying that in the least. I'm saying if you pay 100 bucks for copy... you'll get a 100 dollar copywriter 99% of the time. Of course newbies belong in the field. I was new once... everyone's new. I'm saying you have to know what you're doing before you charge people a dime. And once you really know what you're doing, you deserve a living wage.

For if so, I personally believe said opinion flies in the face of any business commonsense.

Not saying it... but also I have no idea what business commonsense is.

My point, my dear fellow, is that it is possible to find a very good copywriter for the rates as outlined in the OP.

And my counter-point, my good man is that while possible, it is NEARLY impossible... meaning hard... difficult... certainly not easy.

All copywriters have to start off from somewhere, at least you have to take your hat off to anyone, who amid one of the greatest financial meltdown's in history, is at least prepared to give it a go.

There are ways to "give it a go" that not only afford you a decent living but don't ripoff clients. See... IMO writing someone's marketing when you don't know what you're doing... that's stealing. If you want to "start off from somewhere" just go to clickbank... find a product and write a letter for it. Then market that product. You get paid nothing up front but you learn...

And as you noodle with the letter... as you tweak and refine it... you make sales. Those commissions go in your pocket. If you truly are a "good copywriter" you will make far more than 100 bucks for your work.

I'm sure when you first started off, you didn't immediately set out charging clients $5k plus per sales letter and no doubt too, your copywriting supplied, was not 100% perfect. It's taken you time to get to that position, where you can charge those kind of figures.

My first sales letter I wrote for a contest... I was paid nothing. Winning that contest started my career. My next letter was $500 and it was ghosted for another copywriter. I wrote while he watched over my shoulder and helped me not screw it up.

I learned... while I earned... and never once had to whore myself out. My $500 letter I would have done for free because that marketer/copywriter was giving me a free education. My next letter after that was for a client... $1800...

But simply lamblasting the lower rates based copywriters, tarnishing them all with the same collective brush and/or label, in effect saying that individuals who buy into their services have a screw missing or worse, that my friend is absolute sheer poppycock and codswallop.

I have no idea about your poppy's manhood... and have never been walloped by a fish. But you are yet again failing to see truth. You're blinded by your confusion here. I am "lamblasting(sp)" no one and nothing. I have (not in effect, but actually) said that buying those services are a crap shoot and they truly are. No one's missing a screw... they're just trying to save a buck. I was merely pointing out that when one tries to save a buck, they often save nothing and lose a lot.

Of course, there are many people out there who cannot write for toffee, let alone compile a reasonable and high converting sales letter, but to tarnish all newer copywriters with this kind of attitude, well, words almost fail me.

I don't think words fail you at all. Judging by this post and the PM you so hastily sent me you've obviously got plenty of words.

The fact is, is that there are always going to be some very good potential copywriters appearing on the scene and if these writers decide to go at it part or full time, they are fully allowed to charge whatever the hec that they want to, whilst they test the waters and/or dip their toes in.

Now we're talking about permission? What each writer is "allowed" to do? Hmmm, this conversation is all over the map!

Just because they are in the sub $1k league at the moment doesn't mean that said writers need to put up with undertone comments, basically saying that their work is a complete load of rubbish.

You're absolutely right! And 100% wrong... all at the same time!

No one should make undertone comments about anyone. You're right about this. What you're wrong about is that anyone was actually making undertone comments. What I said was the entire tone... over, under... middle... bass and treble...

And it wasn't that any individual writer sucks. It was all about finding a good writer and how hard it is to do that when you have no money to spend.

You wanted to stifle that message looks to me like you're only looking out for one person. On the other hand I'm also looking out for the beginning marketers too. The ones who might be tempted to buy cheap copy expecting "it'll be fine for now." I hear it all the time... and all the time those people are unhappy. Not every buyer of course. But every buyer I've spoken to.

Hiring a great copywriter who makes a lot of money isn't any guarantee the project is going to work. But it usually gives you a much better shot. Hiring a brand new, unproven, green, hungry but not fully informed copywriter does not always guarantee a project will die.

Neither of those things are assured. They're just more likely.

[Daniel Scott]

Wordpro,

Chill.

There are definitely great copywriters who start out low. Mike Humphreys wrote his first letter for $300 or so, I think, as did Bruce Wedding (I remember reading this somewhere... correct me if I'm wrong guys!).

Vin wrote his first paid letter for $500.

But they're the exception. For every one of them, there's about a thousand hack writers who charge next to nothing and put out crappy work... again, and again, and again...

Think of it like the lottery. Sure, if you buy a ticket, you might win that ten million bucks... but you have a snowball's chance in hell.

Let me tell you something... writing a good letter takes a lot of time. I have never met a good copywriter who can say otherwise. Writing a letter that LOOKS, to the untrained eye (which is why you get a copywriter in the first place, usually) that it will work is easy.

Actually writing one that DOES convert is far, far harder.

To write a good letter, you have to study the market til you know them inside out. Analyze the competition. Intimately aquaint yourself with the client's product. Derive a USP. Understand WHAT you're going to say in the letter...

So, right there, that's probably at least 20 hours worth of work before you start writing.

If you charge $100/letter, that's $5/hr... not exactly worth it when you can make more at Maccas.

Now, understand that I have been a $100 writer... so I know what I'm talking about. When I started out, I did 4 letters for $97/piece... and you know what? Those letters took me about 20 hours each. They were good... not amazing, but good, and from what I hear, the clients who actually used them made some okay money out of them.

So the next two letters I wrote were at $500... and they were better... and took 25 hours each. So now I'm making an okay wage... but still not a great one... considering the insane amount of work that I put into them (and the insane amount of money they have the capacity to generate).

Then I started working with Vin... and my letters are now taking even longer to write... but they're getting pretty good. And I now charge about $3 000 a letter... and that's increasing every letter.

So it's taken me about 10 letters, I think, to go from $100/letter to $3 000/letter... and people who are smarter than I am don't start at $100.

Can you see now why it is next to impossible to get a good writer for $100?

Here's the other side of the coin... I get a much better class of client. Clients actually USE the letters I write for them... generate traffic, and get solid results... which I can then use to get more clients...

So, whilst I'm not down on all low-fee copywriters... having been one myself, if only briefly (although some would probably still consider me a low-fee copywriter)... I do understand that most of them can't write worth a cup of cold water.

Now, since you brought it up, let's look at your 4-hour letter at Wordpress Squeeze Pages: Wordpress Squeeze Page Generator :Wordpress Squeeze Pages

Now, by skimming this letter real quick I can see some major problems. Your headline's too long. You are light on benefits and emotional punch. The order of your copy's "parts" doesn't really flow well, your bullets are non-existent (nobody really cares about a "feature", only what it will do for them)... and so on.

Now, here's the funny thing... I bet if you spent another twenty hours on that letter, or whatever... you could make it absolutely killer. There are some really strong points that you've hinted at... and if you had a mentor they would show this up for you.

But as it stands, it's pretty weak. And, as Mike said, it's one of the better $100 letters I've seen.

Now, I'm not trying to be a dick for the sake of it. It's clear you have an excellent grip on the English language (better than myself for certain, and probably many others)... and you've obviously at least studied some copywriting. If you keep writing, I think you could be an amazing copywriter.

High fees come with confidence, and confidence comes with proven results... and proven results comes with writing a lot of good letters.

So until you can show me someone who has written more than a few low priced letters who consistently hits it "out of the park"... your comments are just misleading. They're a nice thought, sure, but they ain't reality.

-Dan

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Ok, so I'll admit it, there's some bloody good points made in the above three replies, I'll take some of my previous remarks back.

As in conversation, one haggles one's point of view, or many, some are right and some are wrong, but if we are prepared to listen, that is how we actually learn something and adapt our viewpoint accordingly - it's called the learning process and admittedly, I've some way to go yet.

So to the three of you above, thanks for your time in replying, believe it or not, your time making those replies, explaining your own point of view, even if I disagree on one or two minor points, on the whole I appreciate your time and thoughts on this matter and getting right down to it - that has taught me instantly, a couple of very important facts which I shall have to implement, if I wish to take this a few steps further, onwards and upwards.

I would have replied earlier this evening too - unfortunately a bloomin' great thunderstorm or two were passing over / through tonight with lots of forked lightning, so the computer had to be switched off for several hours, waiting for the storms to pass through, to protect my modem.

Chilled? I'm very chilled, if you want to know how chilled, read my thread from last night in the Success forum, one doesn't get much more chilled out than that.

Admittedly though, I am a bit of a feiry, passionate creature at the best of times, something I am aware of and too, have to work on often.

For what it's worth, if you'll take it, I wish you all the very best and a jolly good weekend.

Thanks.

Mark

[Daniel Scott]

Mark,

It's great to know that you've actually taken our advice on board. Most people just ignore what you have to say... even had you honesty and truly read it, thought about it, and discarded it, I would have been happy.

It takes balls to say "I was wrong" or even "I wasn't 100% right"... and I wish more people around had the wisdom and courage you do.

By the way, a quick tip from a fellow copywriter... use shorter sentences. Your whole paragraphs are one big sentence... split them up and use elipses (...) instead of commas wherever possible.

Just a tip I've picked up from a far better writer than myself.

-Dan

[MontelloMarketing]

It's all good, Mark. Now go make some money!

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by WordPro

Ok, so I'll admit it, there's some bloody good points made in the above three replies, I'll take some of my previous remarks back.

As in conversation, one haggles one's point of view, or many, some are right and some are wrong, but if we are prepared to listen, that is how we actually learn something and adapt our viewpoint accordingly - it's called the learning process and admittedly, I've some way to go yet.

So to the three of you above, thanks for your time in replying, believe it or not, your time making those replies, explaining your own point of view, even if I disagree on one or two minor points, on the whole I appreciate your time and thoughts on this matter and getting right down to it - that has taught me instantly, a couple of very important facts which I shall have to implement, if I wish to take this a few steps further, onwards and upwards.

Classy post, Mark.

Onward and upward indeed!

Best,

Brian

[redlake2]

Great thread eveyone. :-)

I have copywriting issues too. I couldn't afford to hire anyone so took an option to have a consultation phonecall with a good copywriter. Then I spent four days getting my head into the right space and wrote a sales letter that doesn't sell.

Apparently my letter is 1000 times better than my first but I really don't like writing. There were a ton of things that I would rather have spent four days working on.

I am good at back end creating products but can't seem to get the front end sales right.

I was thinking about joint venturing with a copywriter but don't know whether that is a more viable option to go with rather than paying someone.

What do you guys think?

I am concerned that I am going to have someone come to me and say hey yeah I am good, i would like to joint venture with you, and then turn out to be not too good.

What kind of questions or expectations should I have for someone to prove themselves?

[Mike30]

It's incredible how much I have learned in this single thread. Thank you all.

[Dean Dhuli]

Originally Posted by redlake2

I am concerned that I am going to have someone come to me and say hey yeah I am good, i would like to joint venture with you, and then turn out to be not too good.

What kind of questions or expectations should I have for someone to prove themselves?

To say the truth, that is the least of your concerns.

On the contrary...

If a copywriter is really good... and if he has hung already long enough
to know the ins and outs of this business... YOU will have a hard time
convincing HIM that you're serious about making the project a success.

More often than not, what happens is that the copywriter spends 3 weeks
to a month writing, editing, polishing the copy.

And then the product creator... he suddenly loses interest in the product
or sees that it's not turning out like he thought it would... and simply stops
promoting it.

It's THAT easy for the product creator to give up when he hasn't invested
much money in the product.

But when you look at it from the copywriter's viewpoint, he has spent a
whole month writing copy for the product... and what did he make
eventually?

Nothing!

So as far as I know, unless you know a copywriter really well PERSONALLY...
and he knows for the fact that you're a serious marketer... you will have
a VERY hard time convincing a good copywriter to JV with you.


Hope this helps,
Dean Dhuli.

[redlake2]

Wow, thanks Dean.

My problem is that I don't lose interest and keep on persisting. Bad copy and all.

So what I am hearing is that there are three phases.

The product creation.
The copywriting.
The promotion.

Collating all of those into an overall business structure is an issue too. So it seems I will need to joint venture with more than one person, locally, who knows and trusts me, to succeed.

The only way forward that I can see is to fill in the gaps of what I don't have with people that do have what I need.

But you are right. How do I get to know these people and have them understand how persistent I am.

I don't see the point of so much persistence if it is not targeted within a proper framework that is going to give a profitable outcome.

mmm, how can I make it happen, i wonder...

[Dean Dhuli]

Originally Posted by redlake2

Wow, thanks Dean.

My problem is that I don't lose interest and keep on persisting. Bad copy and all.

So what I am hearing is that there are three phases.

The product creation.
The copywriting.
The promotion.

Collating all of those into an overall business structure is an issue too. So it seems I will need to joint venture with more than one person, locally, who knows and trusts me, to succeed.

The only way forward that I can see is to fill in the gaps of what I don't have with people that do have what I need.

But you are right. How do I get to know these people and have them understand how persistent I am.

I don't see the point of so much persistence if it is not targeted within a proper framework that is going to give a profitable outcome.

mmm, how can I make it happen, i wonder...

How can you make it happen?

I don't know. Maybe if you're introduced to the copywriter by a mutual
friend who knows you and your capabilities really well.

That's the only way I can think of because getting a complete stranger to
trust you cannot and will not happen overnight. It takes time to build a relationship.

If you go to an established copywriter and say "you write copy for me and
I'll pay you 50% of the profits", his reaction will be like "yeah, right!"

Don't take it that he's being arrogant or anything.

You get this kind of response because he probably got burnt on similar
deals before.

I personally have. Did a couple of JV deals when I was starting out and
never got paid a single penny for the copy.

Plus, as if to add salt to the wound, the copywriter eventually gets
accused of writing copy that's worthless and ineffective.

Do they really need that?

And then...

Even if you get the copy free, you'll still need money for PPC, graphics,
buying affiliate software, etc. Unless your product is in the IM niche,
you'll also not have 300 affiliates with huge lists promoting it right off
the bat.

So these are also some of the things you need to consider.

Established copywriters won't agree to JVs for exactly this reason -- most
newbies don't know how to market the product even if you give them
the best copy in the world.

However, if you remove your fixation for a good copywriter... settle for a
decent one (somebody who's just starting out probably)... and also get a
traffic expert with moderate expertise on board, there's no reason why you
can't do well as a team.


Take care,

Dean

[redlake2]

Thanks Dean,

I am in a business marketing group here in Australia so I have already got good relationships. Its another month before we meet up. At least I have more of an idea about the 'reality' of the situation.

Thanks :-)

[Bizwayze]

Seems to me, if you can write good copy for yourself, Killer-ads that you know are effective, why shouldn't you make a few extra bucks writing copy for other people?

Someone described Copywriters as 'Bottom-Feeders'.. For me, if client and provider are both happy, what's wrong with that?

And to think about it., who made the most money in the 1849 Gold Rush? The guys who sold shovels and pans, that's who. Now they were bottom feeders, but they didn't get their hands quite so dirty!

jj

[RAJ Wells]

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

LOL... I'd love to know who bestowed the "good" title on these bottom feeders.

I have a great idea... You $200 "good" copywriters obviously are reading this thread. So... why not come public and show your work? Give us some results... some references. Because I'll be damn honest with you...

If I could find a "good" copywriter for TWICE that price, I will book ALL your time.

Not to write for my clients. But just to write for me. Hell... get 5 of your friends who are also good and I'll book a year in advance right this minute!

$400 a sales letter written by a "good" copywriter. That's the bargain of the century...

Now... a $200 sales letter from someone who just decides "hey, I'm good"... well, those are a dime a dozen. Every broke wannabe THINKS he/she's good.

HI Guys


Interesting discussion, I totally underdstand you get what you pay for with sales copy. But how much do your really need to spend on copy for a 25 to 40 dollar ebook if your serious and want results?

[MontelloMarketing]

Originally Posted by RAJ Wells

HI Guys


Interesting discussion, I totally underdstand you get what you pay for with sales copy. But how much do your really need to spend on copy for a 25 to 40 dollar ebook if your serious and want results?

At least a few thousand dollars to get results.

I don't mean, "Hey I sold 50 ebooks!" kinda results. I mean, "Honey... my ebook is buying you a new car" kinda results.

If you're looking for that, I always recommend my students. When it goes past that... When you're hoping to make high 5, 6 or even 7 figures... that's when you really should spend low 5 figures to get it.

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by RAJ Wells

HI Guys


Interesting discussion, I totally underdstand you get what you pay for with sales copy. But how much do your really need to spend on copy for a 25 to 40 dollar ebook if your serious and want results?

One thing I've learned about copy... and this is my own experience, nothing more... but it seems like copy either sells well... or not at all.

Selling an ebook is harder than you think. You're selling an intangible product to (often, but not always) computer challenged folks who think the internet is a scam-fest and everyone's out to get you.

Now, as Vin said, the results you want will be dependent on the level of copywriter you hire... and there's no rule you have to spend $10 000 or whatever right off the bat. You could always re-invest that later.

But to get a business with any kind of momentum you're probably looking at a few thousand. At that figure, you know the copywriter values their time, which means they are (hopefully) good at what they do... hell, they convinced you to part with three grand didn't they?

Remember, you are building a BUSINESS here. Offline guys have to buy a storefront, inventory, pay bills, etc etc.

Online, you can cut out a lot of those costs... but not all of them. It's still a business, and businesses require investment... usually in both time AND money.

-Dan

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by RAJ Wells

But how much do your really need to spend on copy for a 25 to 40 dollar ebook if your serious and want results?

It's not a 25 to 40 dollar ebook. If you expect to sell, say, a thousand of them... that's 25 to 40 thousand dollars.

Now imagine that you get a copywriter to triple your response rate. Now you're making 75 to 120 thousand dollars.

So why wouldn't you pay $10,000 for that copywriter? You're making five to eight times your investment back. Copywriting is like software development: good design adds value faster than it adds cost.

[Jon Steel]

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

Michel Fortin tweeted this yesterday:

YouTube - The Vendor Client relationship - in real world situations

Freaking funny, but very true...

js

[Collette]

Originally Posted by RAJ Wells

HI Guys


Interesting discussion, I totally underdstand you get what you pay for with sales copy. But how much do your really need to spend on copy for a 25 to 40 dollar ebook if your serious and want results?

It depends.

How many 25 to 40-dollar ebooks do you seriously want to sell?

[jhall85work]

I am an up and comer and i rewrote a squeeze page for a lady who tried to do it herself. I charged her $200 (thinking maybe that was too high at first) and I did my research and cranked it out in about two days. I literally increased her sign up rate by %600 if you can believe it. I'm trying to get my name out there and do cheap jobs for people but I'm not sure how to go about it at this point. this thread is very helpful

[Astounding Writing Coach]

I think so far I've invested $4k - $5k training myself to learn copywriting. Notice I said "invest'? That's what you're paying for when you hire a copywriter. Someone who is providing a tool to help you get a ROI of the letter.

You might consider going to AWAI (American Writers and Artist's Institute) for a great course. It was one of the best investments of my professional copywriting career.

Susan