Is it possible to find "affordable" Sales Letter Writers?

[reedcopywriting]

I think it's more about the sales letter writer and less about the price.

You can find people who are charging WAY TOO MUCH for boring, crappy copy... and you can find people who are charging $200 for copy that is powerful and effective.

Some copywriters use templates, they follow a set pattern and they don't take the time to create original hooks that grab reader's attention... and these copywriters aren't worth any amount of money.

But if you can find a copywriter who will take the time to get into the mind of your buyer and identify the CORE reason for buying... then they are worth any fee.

I think the key to finding a good copywriter for a low proce is to find someone who is working to build their business up and willing to work for less money.

[Kyle Tully]

Originally Posted by reedcopywriting

I think the key to finding a good copywriter for a low proce is to find someone who is working to build their business up and willing to work for less money.

Isn't that, by definition, what ALL low-priced copywriters are doing?

No copywriter who has "built their business up" and is "not willing to work for less money" will work for a low fee

[la dominatrix]

Originally Posted by Roshan C

Hey guys,

Do you think it is possible to get a GOOD sales letter writer at an affordable price? like is it possible to get a sales-writer at $97?

Your question is "Can I afford To Purchase a good sales letter?"

My question is
"Can you afford not to?"

By that I mean you will get more concersions. However if you cannot afford a couple of thousand for your sales letter write your own and save your profits if there are any ot get a sales letter with a better conversion rate!
La dominatrix

[wealthambition]

For $97 bucks you should buy a salesletter software - from Marlon Sanders or Mark Hendricks and just follow the step-by-step instructions.

I don't outsource my salescopy -as you need to be in touch to really nail it.

However, paying someone to make it better is another thing...

It pays to know how to do the bones of it yourself, IMO

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by wealthambition

For $97 bucks you should buy a salesletter software - from Marlon Sanders or Mark Hendricks and just follow the step-by-step instructions.

I don't outsource my salescopy -as you need to be in touch to really nail it.

However, paying someone to make it better is another thing...

It pays to know how to do the bones of it yourself, IMO

IMHO that sales letter software is terrible... I think you're much better off NOT using it than you are trying to fit your copy into a mold like that.

And FYI, most copywriters will start from scratch rather than do a rewrite unless your copy is already pretty damn good... because it's much easier and the result is usually better.

-Dan

[Dan Silverman]

My recommendation is to do as much as possible on your own. First you learn about copywriting from this forum, then you can even watch free videos and advice on it. My boy Brian McElroy has so many free vids on copywriting. I followed those videos to a T to write my first copy letter.

Do as much of the background research as possible, write the copy letter as best as you can, and get in touch with a recommended copywriter. Ask a high priced copywriter to recommend a good copywriter who can clean it up for you at a reduced rate. His reputation will be on the line if he recommends you to someone so he's likely to refer you to someone good. He/she would know what good copywriting talent is.

Provide this person with all the work you've done. The copyletter you wrote, a thorough summary of your research, and anything you can do to make it easier on the copywriter. You should expect a "clean and polish" job for about $500 or so. But seriously, it's worth the investment and when it comes to copy, you get what you pay for.

[Daniel Scott]

No offense Dan... but 99% of the time if someone asks for a "re-write"... or a "polish job"... their copy is seriously flawed to begin with... and it's easier to start over.

If you've hit all the right points and just need someone to shorten your sentences... use stronger wording... maybe re-write a subhead or two... then sure, a re-write will do it (but I would expect it to run you closer to $1 000 for a cheap writer (a GOOD cheap writer that is)).

The thing is though, more than half of what we do as copywriters is to get all those points nailed... so a rewrite won´t help unless things are already pretty goddamn good.

Dan

[Dan Silverman]

Well, I did use a system that taught me the basics of copywriting... and I guess I must be talented! Maybe I should start doing it for $97. lol

[Thrive-Online.com]

Hi Roshan,

If you want to have a great sales letter written at that price my friend, you'd be better of buying a book on copywriting from the likes of one of the greats, like Michel Fortin, Gary Halbert, Dan Kennedy, Awaionline, Clayton Makepeace or Marlon Sanders...

These guys know their copywriting and can give you the basics of a solid letter, from there, you could "SAVE" your money and model a great letter from someone you know is doing well from theirs (don't copy it, model it) and from there test, test and test some more.

Out of all the great skills you can learn, copywriting is one of them and you should learn this skill yourself... My thoughts are, for $97 you would do a better job yourself than outsource it, as most copywriters even in the $400 to $1000 range are quite ordinary...

Good copy comes from deeply knowing your product and the problem that it solves and it's not hard to do once you know the basics, always stick to the basics, don't pressure your reader, be natural and allow your copy to flow out of you then polish it up and shorten it and you'll be fine.

As long as you have the basic ingredients in place and you'll be on good ground to go from there.

Model the greats you can't go too far wrong my friend.

[ideapro]

I agree with MikeHumphreys above. His analysis is right on target.

The problem you have when you try to hire a copywriter for under $100 is that either the copywriter would have to already know you, your product, your competition, and the target audience/readership of your sales letter -- all of them -- really, really well. Before he began your project. Then, he'd have to (okay, or she'd have to) be able to knock-out your copy in a couple hours at most, or maybe even a few minutes!

Do you know anyone with a couple of late model cars, a nice house, an education, and in-depth knowledge of you, your specialty, your competition, and your audience... who is ready to work for only $30, $40 or $50 bucks an hour? In other words, is there someone around who has obligations, bills to pay, a life, and ALSO the willingness to write your email letter or sales pitch... at a small fraction of what he/she needs to maintain his/her successful lifestyle?

Maybe.

And that person is probably your brother, or your father, or sister... or your mother. Anyone else would need you to pay them enough to make it worth their while.

So, we're left with the advice that you ended up giving yourself. The BEST approach is to simply do it yourself. YOU are probably the smartest person you can find, the most talented, the most capable, and the most willing... you are the one. You are the one who will do the job... and do it right.

Oh, it may take you longer than that high-dollar expert could have done. But, the job can be done right, if you do a bit of prep, research, a bit of reading and a LOT of editing.

Go out there and hire the best guy or gal for the job... YOU !

Have fun doing it, and know that you've in fact actually hired the right person for the job.

[zapseo]

It's not the writing, it's the research, that takes time.

And information transfer.

Quite a few clients have "nickel and dimed" my time because I have had to ask, repeatedly, for the items I needed to do the best job for them. A recent client wanted to work on an extraordinarily tight schedule. Then wouldn't respond to my emails for days at a time.

Get the research right, and the copy isn't nearly as important.

One bit of the research can throw a completely different angle on the copy. Just ask Carlton when he interviewed the guy and finally came up with the "one legged golfer" angle.

People who can't afford to pay for copy are probably running an under-funded business anyway. They haven't had the time/money/energy to do an adequate job of market research and so the marketing will be half-assed. Copy is the cherry on the ice cream sundae of marketing, with the ice cream being the market research.

And combining copy along with the constraints of the web (the graphic design, etc) can be especially painful -- especially when the graphics have already been done.

Live JoyFully!

Judy

NextDay Copy
Marketer's Geek

[DavidO]

This highlights a really frustrating situation that many new marketers can find themselves in. It's a Catch-22: You can't afford a good copywriter, but using cheap ones will never make you the money to hire a good one.

I've paid from $197 to $2000 and everything in between for copy. The funny thing is that the quality difference between $197 and 2 grand was not very much. That's depressing.

With only rare exceptions you won't get high-quality copy for less than 5 figures. Why should copywriting be different from any other market. Popular (i.e. high-converting) copywriters are in highastest demand and can charge the highest rates.

I don't completely agree with the advice to spend $100 on guides and do your own. That's what I've done and after three years of constant striving my copy is profitable, but not sensational. I know there's higher conversion to be had out of my product.

The advantage writing your own copy offers is that nobody else knows your product as well as you do. One hundred hours of research wouldn't come close to the understanding of my product as I have.

But, sadly, some people couldn't write effective copy to save their life. To encourage it is futile. There's no shame in it. There are lots of things I can't do and I won't waste my time trying.

If you're in this situation all you can do is strive to find someone to do your copy on the best terms possible. Maybe with halfway decent copy you can earn enough to take the next stop to decent copy... and then on to excellent copy.

[nontemplates]

Originally Posted by DavidO

I've paid from $197 to $2000 and everything in between for copy. The funny thing is that the quality difference between $197 and 2 grand was not very much. That's depressing.

Yep. Judging by some copy I have read I am not surprised. Whats subtle and real is that people are using their price as a calling card. Thats the other side of the equation. Professional Copywriters charge this amount and so do I so the suggestion is that they are truly professional Copywriters. In many cases they aren't even good writers much less Copywriters. They are just good Guru followers.

Heres my bottom line and I think it will work for others. Someone want to claim they are a Pro at Copywriting forget the forum reputation, the self promotion. the claims they make of their close rates and who they have worked for (You can make that up in a New York minute). Just as there are all kinds of ridiculous claims in IM there are in Copywriting.

Let them show you the copy on their site. How effective is it in reaching you their target market? Can they write an original compelling headline for themselves that doesn't scream Copy Cat ? or one that doesn't just totally miss? How much would you pay for the copy they use to sell themselves? because they sure aren't going to be more motivated for you (and shouldn't be).

Do your due diligence to make sure it isn't copied from somewhere else. If they charge $400 or $5,000 live by one simple rule - as the proof is in the pudding the proof is in the copy. If they are good hire em. If they stink -walk. No matter what the rep says or how much they charge high or low.

$99? Nearly impossible unless the writer lives in a location where cost of living is very low. Thats not because they are not good or talented or able to give you great conversion rates but because of the time it takes for anyone to do adequate research into a product.

[Bigsofty]

$99? Nearly impossible unless the writer lives in a location where cost of living is very low

I live in the jungles of Borneo and even I can't charge that little.

You may find my copy hits the spot for someone looking for an affordable copywriter...

www.copywriter-ac.com


*Alan does a rare spot of self-promotion on the Warrior forum*



B.

[nontemplates]

Bigsofty,

I've never done an endorsement of any Copywriter on this forum but I will say of all the sales pages that I have read (that advertise here as Copywriters) yours was only one of two that I was impressed with and the only one that held me from top to bottom of the page.

[Daniel Scott]

Interesting theory, but here's the problem...

99% of the time when you need to hire a copywriter, you are unable to judge whether they are a good copywriter or not.

That's because understanding what goes into copywriting is a HUGE skill that very few learn... just look around the copywriting forum to figure that one out.

What matters is how good the copy a copywriter writes is... as in, how well it converts and how much cash it makes.

Anything else is frivolous.

The first question you should ask your copywriter is what kind of successes they've had.

There's a reason Vin Montello can charge what he does... he has a string of successes, one after another. So do guys like Michel Fortin, Matt James, David Raybould, Mike Humphreys, Ray Edwards... etc etc etc.

And nontemplates... you show me one copywriter that charges $3 000 or more (and actually gets clients) who isn't a good writer/copywriter. In almost every case a client dropping that amount of cash will ask around and find out about your rep BEFORE they hire you.

-Dan

Originally Posted by nontemplates

Yep. Judging by some copy I have read I am not surprised. Whats subtle and real is that people are using their price as a calling card. Thats the other side of the equation. Professional Copywriters charge this amount and so do I so the suggestion is that they are truly professional Copywriters. In many cases they aren't even good writers much less Copywriters. They are just good Guru followers.

Heres my bottom line and I think it will work for others. Someone want to claim they are a Pro at Copywriting forget the forum reputation, the self promotion. the claims they make of their close rates and who they have worked for (You can make that up in a New York minute). Just as there are all kinds of ridiculous claims in IM there are in Copywriting.

Let them show you the copy on their site. How effective is it in reaching you their target market? Can they write an original compelling headline for themselves that doesn't scream Copy Cat ? or one that doesn't just totally miss? How much would you pay for the copy they use to sell themselves? because they sure aren't going to be more motivated for you (and shouldn't be).

Do your due diligence to make sure it isn't copied from somewhere else. If they charge $400 or $5,000 live by one simple rule - as the proof is in the pudding the proof is in the copy. If they are good hire em. If they stink -walk. No matter what the rep says or how much they charge high or low.

$99? Nearly impossible unless the writer lives in a location where cost of living is very low. Thats not because they are not good or talented or able to give you great conversion rates but because of the time it takes for anyone to do adequate research into a product.

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Originally Posted by nontemplates

Heres my bottom line and I think it will work for others. Someone want to claim they are a Pro at Copywriting forget the forum reputation, the self promotion. the claims they make of their close rates and who they have worked for (You can make that up in a New York minute). Just as there are all kinds of ridiculous claims in IM there are in Copywriting.

Let them show you the copy on their site. How effective is it in reaching you their target market? Can they write an original compelling headline for themselves that doesn't scream Copy Cat ? or one that doesn't just totally miss? How much would you pay for the copy they use to sell themselves? because they sure aren't going to be more motivated for you (and shouldn't be).

Do your due diligence to make sure it isn't copied from somewhere else. If they charge $400 or $5,000 live by one simple rule - as the proof is in the pudding the proof is in the copy. If they are good hire em. If they stink -walk. No matter what the rep says or how much they charge high or low.

$99? Nearly impossible unless the writer lives in a location where cost of living is very low. Thats not because they are not good or talented or able to give you great conversion rates but because of the time it takes for anyone to do adequate research into a product.

On another thread just recently, where you were attacking Daniel Scott, Onslaught (Paul), Bill Jeffels and myself - you were making very direct and very negative remarks concerning my business, rubbishing my reputation here on this forum as a copywriter, mentioning my own headlines and also bringing one of my WSO threads into disrepute, in the thread itself.

Just because one disagrees with a point of view by you, does not give you an excuse to use every sly means possible, to damage another copywriters reputation here on this forum.

I'm sure that it is no accident at all, that in the above highlighted words, you have managed yet again to draw attention to my website, with the capitalization of my business name, putting a capital 'C' on the word copywriting, immediately after your inclusion of the two letters 'IM'.

I can see exactly what you are up to again - I had a problem with you before going around the forum rubbishing everyone's business here and here you are slyly doing the same again, making the insinuation that another copywriter here is no good etc with your surrounding words.

At best you are a very sly and devious individual. At worst, I won't say.

You know I've already had to put you on to my Ignore List, the very first Warrior member here to have that 'priviledge', for your constant stream of attacks before.

I don't know you, you've never been a client of mine, you don't know my copy and yet you try at every opportunity possible to bring my name into disrepute.

Mark
IMCopywriting.com

[Daniel Scott]

In fairness Mark, this guy uses a LOT of capital letters where he shouldn't... which is another reason that I question the validity of his criticism.

I don't think he's rubbishing you... I think you're being paranoid.

Could be wrong, though.

I also don't remember him attacking me. Disagreeing with me, perhaps... and even then I think it was more a communication error than anything.

Let's all keep in mind that 95% of your message is lost when you speak in text only.

That's why good copywriters charge what we do... we have to be VERY careful about the way we say things in order to get the desired results.

-Dan

[nontemplates]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Interesting theory, but here's the problem...

Actually its not a theory and as far as is rational there is no problem. Its a common sense fact. If you can't deliver a good sales page on your own site then you are not worth the money. Period.

99% of the time when you need to hire a copywriter, you are unable to judge whether they are a good copywriter or not. That's because understanding what goes into copywriting is a HUGE skill that very few learn... just look around the copywriting forum to figure that one out.

Yes and no. And this is a good place to have this discussion. If I am your target market and you can't reach me then theres a potential problem no? This is just common sense. If you don't sell yourself well why should I believe you are going to sell my product well. In your sales page your job is to convert me not to explain to me the Huge skill that copywriting is (not at all denying that it is but..... well I'll come to that later).

Well that is the purpose of a sales page isn't it? To sell me on your service and if you fail to do so and actually turn me off why in the world shouldn't I take that into account? You failed to convert me and I am your target. Now if there are some other things that later discount that first experience then fine but I am going to say it bluntly. saying that that shouldn't be a factor and particularly that is frivolous is really quite nonsensical. Its the first piece of hard data I have about a copywriter that isn't just his own claims of what he can do.

The first question you should ask your copywriter is what kind of successes they've had.

If I get that far but thats like asking a used car salesman if a vehicle is reliable. What is he going to say? no? the better question to me is can he provide any references as to his success from a reputable source. And frankly thats where the mine field comes in. Whose the reputable source? See I've been to many a sales page that claims high conversion rates but so far I have not seen even one post anything solid to prove it.

There's a reason Vin Montello can charge what he does... he has a string of successes, one after another. So do guys like Michel Fortin, Matt James, David Raybould, Mike Humphreys, Ray Edwards... etc etc etc.

Not terribly relelvant to the those looking for something they can afford. I get the track record and it is sound and concrete but most people on this board are not being approached by any big name in copyWriting and they have to make a determination based on far less data with a name with far less notoriety .

In almost every case a client dropping that amount of cash will ask around and find out about your rep BEFORE they hire you.

From who? Where should they ask? Again it isn't where most live. Alot of people on this board don't know a soul who has hired a Copywriter and frankly to me its downright dangerous to plop down thousands of dollars with someone because he/she is touted by a few people they don't know personally on a forum and who have online friendships that may bias them entirely. I don't get the point of trying to attach a price tag to a skill set as if those who charge it have a rite of passage to be included in a good copy writers club. its backways is what I am saying. I'm not at all claiming that there are not copy writers worth that.

So I don't get the novelty or controversy in what I said. Its no theory. If you can't show some of what you got on your sales page then why should anyone go any further? Proof is in the pudding. You burn it while I am deciding and its on to the next baker.

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Good points of which I'm very well aware Daniel, but thanks for pointing this out.

For the record, no I'm not paranoid, what I am tired of seeing is this poster thinking that he knows best all the time, rubbishing other much more experienced copywriters opinions - when he goes by no personal name or copywriting website.

Also directly mentioning, as he has done on another thread, bringing my recent WSO's into disrepute.

There is a difference between disagreeing with points made and trying one's best to sully the reputation of other copywriters directly.

When one enjoy's helping out other posters as much as possible, receiving personal thanks often, seeing this kind of behaviour is just insulting.

Wishing you a great day Daniel - I always enjoy reading your posts and thought provoking comments, which help us all to improve our game.

Best wishes.


Mark

[nontemplates]

Originally Posted by WordPro

On another thread just recently, where you were attacking Daniel Scott, Onslaught (Paul), Bill Jeffels and myself - you were making very direct and very negative remarks concerning my business, rubbishing my reputation here on this forum as a copywriter, mentioning my own headlines and also bringing one of my WSO threads into disrepute, in the thread itself.

Just because one disagrees with a point of view by you, does not give you an excuse to use every sly means possible, to damage another copywriters reputation here on this forum.

WOW! what an incredible distortion. As I recall just as now I got attacked for posting my thoughts without respect to any particular copywriter. Raises some questions as to why - but you know what? I am going to honor this as a sticky thread about finding an affordable copy writer. Anyone want to see who started attacking who can go to the thread

Oh my god...this copy blows


and no there was no "bringing one of my WSO threads into disrepute in the thread itself - such a thing would be a bannable offense which is why a writer who doesn't like a difference of opinion would write it that way. Let it rest there this is an excellent thread and I'm not going to participate in derailing it

[Daniel Scott]

nontemplates (can you sign your name so I can call you a real name? LOL),

Your logic explains EXACTLY why a cheap copywriter won't be any good. If they can't sell themselves (and make decent money) how can they sell YOUR product?

If I wanted to hire a copywriter, I'd do some research, see if I liked someone's style... then email them and ask them to give me SPECIFIC examples of where they've done killer work. Most copywriters won't be able to tell you everything, of course, for confidentiality reasons... but you can usually get a good idea of their skillset.

Then email copywriters you KNOW are good. Get some samples, and PM Vin Montello, Mike Humphreys, Ray Edwards, Scott, whoever... guys you KNOW are good. They might not have the time to help you but if you get lucky one of them will.

Heck, if you email them and explain your situation they might be able to RECOMMEND a writer. I know Vin passes off work all the time from people who want a copywriter but don't have his (admittedly hefty) fee handy... so he recommends someone he knows will do a good job in that price range. Most copywriters do a similar thing.

Knowing what I know now... that's what I'd do.

But, of course, if you don't have $3000+... forget about hiring a copywriter. Either go through the agony of doing it yourself and watch as it won't convert (it's what I did, and how I learned to write copy), or (what I SHOULD have done) market affiliate offers until you have the cash to burn.

-Dan

[nontemplates]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

In fairness Mark, this guy uses a LOT of capital letters where he shouldn't... which is another reason that I question the validity of his criticism.

Come on Daniel. I have no problems with you but trying to invalidate an entire criticism (as you call it. I named no names except positively) based on a bad habit of capital letters when I type (C in particular -lol - don't know where I started picking that up). I've been lying down recently while I type. Helps the back so I suspect theres even more you can nitpick at. I'm not selling my writing or typing skills on this forum (amazingly stated as the reason I shouldn't post). I thought it was causal conversations in a forum but if its for a grade I guess I can shape up

I just want to hear a rational basis why looking at a person's sales page should not be considered to have any bearing on their ability to write a sales page.

Now when I say they should be hired I was in no way implying that anyone should drop everything and do no more due diligence but its a proof of ability or lack of ability. A good one and based on that you should continue to find out more. A bad one? Stop and go to the next.

[nontemplates]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

nontemplates (can you sign your name so I can call you a real name? LOL)

Sorry I see you already responded before my last post. The names Mike.

Your logic explains EXACTLY why a cheap copywriter won't be any good. If they can't sell themselves (and make decent money) how can they sell YOUR product?

Um Daniel I wasn't referring to necessarily cheap copywriters. Despite all kinds of nonsense claims that I am going after any copywriters (yeah I responded to an attack Mark made. he had it coming too. If you question people's right to post you should be prepared to have people question yours) I'm not getting into any names.

[

But, of course, if you don't have $3000+... forget about hiring a copywriter.

Really? So you are throwing any copywriter anywhere in the world under the bus that doesn't work for that? I got another HUGE ethical problem with that Daniel and I'll seperate that into another post later.

[Daniel Scott]

nontemplates,

It's not just the capital letters... your writing on this forum isn't good. Now, granted, some people don't feel that a forum warrants care and attention... but when I think about great writers, I think of guys like C Darklock and Paul Myers... who always write amazing posts.

Granted, there are amazing COPYWRITERS like Vin who don't write posts with the same finesse and elegance... but they're always clear and easy to understand.

Now, aside from that, you have some incorrect assumptions about copywriting that you put across as fact... intentionally or not. I good rule of thumb is to try and clarify your position by stating "In my experience" or "I am of the opinion that"... just to keep everything square and to ensure that we don't confuse newbies with our OPINIONS.

Sound fair?

Now, to address your point...

I can understand why you may think the way you do (a copywriter's writing has to grab you)... but it ain't necessarily so.

A good copywriter can be OBJECTIVE about the stuff he sees... and let me tell you, I've seen some brilliant copy that didn't grab me, even when I was the target market.

Didn't stop it from converting like crazy, though.

My point is that most people can't TELL whether copy is good or bad... which is why the $97 sales letters sell like crazy. They're terrible, but the person buying them (and the person writing them) doesn't know that.

-Dan

[nontemplates]

I'm sure that it is no accident at all, that in the above highlighted words, you have managed yet again to draw attention to my website, with the capitalization of my business name, putting a capital 'C' on the word copywriting, immediately after your inclusion of the two letters 'IM'.

Woah! I skipped over your rant and just saw this. You are WAAAAAY off base. You've been reading too much on NLP. Lets clear the air. I was not drawing attention to your website. As Daniel has stated I have been capitalizing C needlessly for awhile just one of those slips and I don't get why in the world IM which is an abbreviation would target your site because I don't even remember your URL until you brought it up.

Props to you mark. You obviously thought although - stating otherwise on your other attack posts - that I am an incredibly bright person. Thanks for the vote of confidence but no definitely no connection there. I actually saw something you wrote the other day and thought it was't half bad and thats not a backhanded slap.

[Daniel Scott]

Mike (thanks for that BTW),

In the copywriting game, anyone under about $5 000 is "cheap". There are definitely good copywriters for that price... I like to consider myself one of them, along with others who I won't name in case they don't want their rates public knowledge.

Most of the copywriters I mentioned in my post are mid-to-high four figures, as far as I know... so while not cheap, they're definitely not expensive.

I assumed (probably mistakenly, upon re-reading) that you were saying those guys were "big names" and therefore too expensive.

Now, in regards to your "bus" comment...

Many copywriters have, at one time, worked for peanuts. A lot of them are quite good. Heck, even Bruce Wedding wrote his first letter for a mere $350.

I did my first FOUR letters for just $97.

Scott used to do cheap-ass letters too.

But when I say that you need at least $3 000... well, I'm generalizing, but it's an apt generalization. The first four letters I wrote I earned less than minimum wage. Good cheap copywriters don't stay cheap for long...

...after all, why would you settle for $500 when you can add an extra zero to that and still have more work than you can handle?

There are professions in which skill levels do not directly translate to monetary gain (music and art comes to mind).

Copywriting is not one of those skills. Copywriting is about selling and making money... Vin is better at it than I am and so he charges more.

So am I throwing EVERY copywriter who works for less than $3 000 "under the bus"? No. That would be hypocritical and unfair.

But I AM saying if you want to go that route... EXPECT copy that doesn't convert... because your chances of getting a good writer for cheaper than that are very, very, VERY slim.

If you want to play the lottery with your business, that's your prerogative. You might even hit the jackpot... as I assume the people who got in on Scott's $500 WSO (some time ago now) did.

But it's pretty rare.

For what it's worth, Mike, I don't think you're going after any copywriters in particular. To be perfectly honest I think you're making comments on things that may be a little beyond your understanding... but I've been guilty of that in the past as well, so it's not as though I think you're a bad person or anything.

I DO, however, think there's a lot of money to be made listening to guys who are better at something than you. And although I could be wrong, I don't think your forte is copywriting.

-Dan

Originally Posted by nontemplates

Sorry I see you already responded before my last post. The names Mike.

Um Daniel I wasn't referring to necessarily cheap copywriters. Despite all kinds of nonsense claims that I am going after any copywriters (yeah I responded to an attack Mark made. he had it coming too. If you question people's right to post you should be prepared to have people question yours) I'm not getting into any names.

Really? So you are throwing any copywriter anywhere in the world under the bus that doesn't work for that? I got another HUGE ethical problem with that Daniel and I'll seperate that into another post later.

[nontemplates]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

nontemplates,

It's not just the capital letters... your writing on this forum isn't good. Now, granted, some people don't feel that a forum warrants care and attention... but when I think about great writers, I think of guys like C Darklock and Paul Myers... who always write amazing posts

Daniel. Sorry now you're just dodging. I'm not here to live up to your criteria of amazing posts. Again I'm not selling anything. When and if I do my writing will be perused more closely. I am here to converse, bounce ideas and learn about IM. I have no doubts about my writing abilities. Frankly I reduce my vocabulary when I am here but in fairness I am one of the world's worst typists Anyway since I have come here people have told me the exact opposite on some posts and whether you choose to believe or not I work in a professional setting with professors that have told me the same. So get over the typing lesson and stop dodging. If it were not so Mark would not have considered me brilliant enough to weave his domain name into my post. His paranoia serves as the answer to your obvious attempt at deflection. Back to the point

What about the argument is illogical? Why should a copywriter not have good copy on his website? Does a good chef serve a lousy meal at his restaurant to his reviewer? Does a painter show a house with streaking paint as his sales tool? The position is flat out ridiculous and nonsensical and hiding behind copywriting being so difficult you can't judge it based on a sales page is just a dodge and weave. Of course you can't exclusively judge it on that. I clarified that long ago but to claim as you did that it doesn't have its importance is pure silliness.

Now if you still do not get it. Don't blame my inability to write on your inability to read and comprehend. I've made it crystal clear and you have yet to answer in anyway that addresses the FUNDAMENTAL logical flaw in your reasoning.

I can understand why you may think the way you do (a copywriter's writing has to grab you)... but it ain't necessarily so.

A good copywriter can be OBJECTIVE about the stuff he sees... and let me tell you, I've seen some brilliant copy that didn't grab me, even when I was the target market.

Didn't stop it from converting like crazy, though.

Well you said you wish me to be fair and I agree so reciprocate. You arer trying shift to what I wrote. I didn't say a darn thing about grabbing me. Is the objective of a sales page to convert the target? If it doesn't convert me then why should I bother? Again if I see poor skills why should I bother? Your one answer has been to ask the copywriter again to sell you by giving you his own stats on his sucess hid by confidentially clauses from any real proof to back it up. Thats a nice setup for a potential con game. What you think people have unlimited time? There are scores if not hundreds of good copywriters. Live in the real world. If a copywriter can't convince me he has the goods in his sales copy selling himself I am going to and should move on to the next. Arguing this common sense reality is tedious and ridiculous and trying to claim otherwise based ons some superior knowledge is a simple transparent appeal to authority which is one of the most common logical fallacies noted in any good book on logic - my favorite being Purtill.

My point is that most people can't TELL whether copy is good or bad... which is why the $97 sales letters sell like crazy. They're terrible, but the person buying them (and the person writing them) doesn't know that.

-Dan

Nope they are buying them because you (not a peronal you) sell them a dream in some copy for $29.95 that tells them they can make $15,000 in a month or $100,000 a year and then later say - "oh oops sorry you will need minimum $3000 to write a palatable sales copy that can do that." They don't have it (and no one told them upfront) so they are left with no choice and then they meet your disdain. So heres what I was going to say is the ethical problem with your claim that anyone who can't pay $3000 shouldn't hire any copywriter.

ANd I know some copywriters are going to scream like crazy cause the truth hurts

Excuse yourself from writing any copy anywhere that has offers like some of those in the WSO area where the poor soul buying what is being sold is told that they too can reproduce the sellers success at making $5000 in a week, or a month or $20,000 in three months or $100,000 in a year or anything similar. Turn down the work unless you put a disclaimer where appropriate. because if the guy or girl used your $3000+ service to get that result you'd be selling a complete lie.

[nontemplates]

Incidentally a good rule of thumb when critiquing people's arguments on the basis of their typing is to not exhibit the same flaws. I find this horribly incoherent from someone selling their services as a writer

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

I good rule of thumb is to try and clarify your position by

What is an "I good rule of thumb"? Were you suddenly waxing Roman numerical? or were you claiming to be a good rule of thumb? Don't complain. You set yourself up for that.

[Daniel Scott]

Mike,

First of all... I don't ever work for people if I have doubts about their integrity or the quality of their product.

I've been lucky so far.

I'm not "dodging" anything... I'm telling you my honest opinion.

I apologize if I have misunderstood you... it's a forum, these things happen.

My point is that copy not grabbing you doesn't mean it's bad. In fact it could be damn good, as I've experienced myself... and you can be in the target market... and still not be moved, per se.

It can still be killer copy though. Perhaps appealing to a slightly different type of person than you are, or something like not... not resonating with you... but that's why good copy converts at maybe 3% (depending on multiple factors of course) instead of 93%.

My point is that 99%+ of people can't tell the difference between a $97 sales letter and a good one.. and those are PRECISELY the people who need to have copy written for them. It's a catch 22 situation... but unless you know a lot about copywriting you can easily screw yourself over.

Another point to consider... when you sell $97 sales letters it's easy to con people. $5 000? Not so much... your reputation SERIOUSLY comes into play there. How good a rep do you think a bad copywriter has?

I've got two words for you that will give you an idea of what reputation means to a copywriter: Nicholas Cole.

Look it up.

You are very unlikely to get screwed by an expensive copywriter. I know Vin won't take a project he doesn't think has a chance. Mike Humphreys, by his own admission, is the same, and I work the same way.

Pretty much every professional copywriter I know (that charges a fair amount) is nothing but ethical and professional... because you can't survive in this game being anything but.

-Dan

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Originally Posted by nontemplates

Incidentally a good rule of thumb when critiquing people's arguments on the basis of their typing is to not exhibit the same flaws. I find this horribly incoherent from someone selling their services as a writer




What is an "I good rule of thumb"? Were you suddenly waxing Roman numerical? or were you claiming to be a good rule of thumb? Don't complain. You set yourself up for that.

As I've noted before, you're just too darn argumentative Mike.

You argue every single point, which is what gets other people's backs up.

You rubbish every opinion given to you, by near every copywriter on this forum, multiquoting their comments, taking things out of context, blowing things up out of all proportion.

I've pointed things out to you, Daniel has pointed things out to you, Bill Jeffels the same, Paul (Onslaught) - and yet you still disagree with everyone, telling them in no uncertain terms that they are wrong.

All the while, your spelling and sentence structure is atrocious by any stretch of the imagination and some of your advice can be damaging to other Warriors, looking for quality advice about this subject.

The problem with you is that you just will not be told, you keep on believing that you are right.

It is this unwillingness to learn, this unwillingness to show any humility at all, constantly bitching at other individuals comments that is getting other Warrior's backs up.

If one can proffer you with some advice, since by your own admittance you are 'so very intelligent', mixing with professor's and all that , as if that means dick, at least give other real copywriters the respect to get on with what they do best - copywriting.

Coming on here and hardly able at times to even string a sentence together with any cohesiveness, gives your case very little credence at all.

Why don't you just try and learn a bit more about the copywriting craft first, before launching on some tirade about copywriters and copywriting in general? This approach I think could bode well for your future.

It's all about attitude matey, as several have already pointed out to you before.

Yours needs a distinct kick up the ass, no offence.

Sort it.


Mark

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by nontemplates

Lets clear the air.

Yes, let's.

You have a pattern of pushing Mark's buttons, then claiming innocence and blaming it all on him.

How many times do you think people are going to believe you?

Here's a hint: I've never believed you.

[nontemplates]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

So am I throwing EVERY copywriter who works for less than $3 000 "under the bus"? No. That would be hypocritical and unfair.

Daniel you stated point blank that if someone didn't have $3.000 they should forget about it

But, of course, if you don't have $3000+... forget about hiring a copywriter

But of course is not the language of some broad generality but of an obvious (to the writer) fact. You are either sloppy with your language construct or dodging again. You critique people's writing and then CLEARLY when caught with the implications try to slide out it.

edit - if you consider this sharp I can understand but I've found your writing critiques more than a little condescending to ignore when you try and backtrack on your own poor use of language. Happens some time to us all. - end edit

How about this.? Let a copywriter set their own prices without trying to set some artificailly imposed limit as to where a good copy writer price point begins and then heres a revolutionary thought - judge the copywriter by actual work that he has done without all that....... and yeah that still includes his own site because simple logic is not dispelled by an appeal to authority.

Argument from authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You are very unlikely to get screwed by an expensive copywriter

Why? because scam artists don't go for the bigger scores only in copywriting? Remember to this point you have not stated a single way for anyone to verify a thing a copywriter claims. You've merely directed the client to ask the copywriter what they claim to have done. I'm not implying anyone here would ripoff a client but a blanket statement like that is once again ridiculous.

And although I could be wrong, I don't think your forte is copywriting.

-Dan

Well of course you don't because even though the copy thats on a copywriters site should not be used as a criteria for judging copywriting skills a person who you've seen no copy work from can be judged by their typing on a forum while lying down. Clearly if someone casually posts on a forum and makes typing erors they would do so even in their writing jobs that they proof (I wonder why editors are ever hired since professional writers never make any mistakes) but wait.... You've made mistakes in your posts...... Sorry That makes about as much sense as anything you've written and once again I fail to see where I am selling any copywriting services.

I think we should stop.

In the last five posts you have yet to answer why a copy writer should not have good convincing copy on their site, claimed that if you pay a high enough price to a copywriter it guarantees that you will not get ripped off and claimed that anyone who charges Under $3,000 must be skipped in favor of no writer at all. Every time caught with the illogical nature of these positions you've merely appealed to authority or to the inherent unsophisticated nature of anyone that sees the lack of logic in those positions.

An old story retold for the 21st century - The Emperor's New Clothes.

I respect you and your work but your position in this thread are not logically defensible. People should choose their copywriting services based on three things

1. Copy actually written and verifiable which first includes their own site.
2. Past work that can be verified independently (not merely the assertion of the copywriter)
3. The appreciation and undertanding the writer shows for the work being offered.

This is plain common sense and trying to argue some knowledge that supercede the rational common sense approach based on alleged authority is patent nonsense and if insisted on is nothing more than a sales ploy.

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Verbose verbiage and complete and utter twaddle at it's best.

Stop attacking other copywriters on this forum.

How many more times do you need to have this point hammered through your thick skull?

Post reported for being argumentative, harrassing and downright rude.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by nontemplates

This is plain common sense

Copywriting is an art. It is not susceptible to common sense.

Imagine that you own a store. You are going to put a statue outside that store. Should it be Michelangelo's David, or a wooden Indian?

Well, which one will make more people come into the store?

There is no "common sense" rule that explains which one you should use. It's an artistic decision. You can't make it with logic.

[nontemplates]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Yes, let's.

You have a pattern of pushing Mark's buttons, then claiming innocence and blaming it all on him.

Are you guys insane???? Why by saying that a copywriter should have good copy on his site am I pushing your buttons?? Where did I call any copywriter out or name names? This is silly . I state that a copywriter should have good copy on his site. Mark then claims I subliminally linked IM and copywriting to implicate him. PURE and ABSOLUTE insanity. It wasn't even a discussion with him and the person I was talking to I complimented them on their copy

LOL!

Theres only one rational explanation. Somebody doesn't like claiming that good copy should be on a copywriter sales page because somebody doesn't think their copy is good.

Tired of it. I'm out . I think anyone reading objectively can draw their own conclusions.

[nontemplates]

Originally Posted by WordPro

How many more times do you need to have this point hammered through your thick skull?

Post reported for being argumentative, harrassing and downright rude.

I'm sure you will be credible with hammering my thick skull. Real professional writing there and not the slightest bit rude.

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Copywriting is an art. It is not susceptible to common sense.

.

Cdarklock look at the thread title . I am not talking about the process of writing. I am talking about the process of finding and making a determination about a good copywriter.

Please tell me how a person is to find a Copywriter without using common sense? For someone in this thread who is looking (my goodness its the thread subject) why in God's green planet can't a prospective client use a copywriters website designed to sell his services as part of the indication of his ability?

Never mind. I've asked several times and got no rational answer because there is none.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by nontemplates

I am talking about the process of finding and making a determination about a good copywriter.

And you cannot use common sense to find and make a determination about a good artist.

Every talent agent on the planet has been trying for centuries. You can't do it. It's simply not possible. Fantastic artists languish in poverty every day while they construct masterpieces, and just a few miles away pathetic hacks are collecting millions for churning out crap.

This is not because the world is fundamentally unfair, or there is some sort of global conspiracy, or the Illuminati are fighting the Mormons over ownership of Atlantis. It is because art is not susceptible to reason.

[nontemplates]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

And you cannot use common sense to find and make a determination about a good artist.

New angle so I will answer it. Let me ask

DO you expect to see a piece of art you deem dreadful and conclude other people are going to like it based on the artist telling you its good? Thats the equivalence to this conversation. Anyway


A) if I answer (as I am so apparently I don't care - lol) I will hear I'm being argumentive or disrespectful from your friend because thats always the case if I answer.

B) We have been in multiple threads where common sense basic rules and principles have been spelt out in copywriting. Comparing it to art is a complete miss. Creating a deep mystery around copywriting is however good for sales I admit (and no I am not implying it doesn't take skill or is easy just that using that is a dodge). Who doesn't want to come across as a magician?

C) If copywriting were anywhere near as subjective as art you would expect greater diversity in copywriting than headline, tell the story, bullets etc. Theres much more structure in copywriting that is common sense and if it were not so there wouldn't be courses that layout the principles to become a good copywriter. There is absolutely no given structure in art. You can draw in the lines outside, use paint, plastic anything. Your analogy again does not work.

D) The tangible result of copywriting is a buyer reaching for their wallet ( credit card or keyboard to go to Paypal) not a smile on your face (say with art). Its a tangible quantitative end result. If I don't reach for my cash you havent done your job. If I'm hiring a copywriter and you haven't convinced me with your sales page - where that skill is supposed to be shown - then I am completely within reason to move on.

This again is all just common sense and it very much does apply to hiring a copywriter. You better have one great reputation with a verifiable unconfidential list of successes to claim that although I am the one with the money you get to decide I am too stupid, unsophisticated or wet behind the ears in recognizing the skills needed to sell my product and I should ignore the lack of your ability to convince me of your skills on your sales page. Frankly if thats the case then that should be either on your sales page or implied and then I would find it convincing.

Common sense is therefore my answer and again unless there is a new angle or question I'm done.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by nontemplates

DO you expect to see a piece of art you deem dreadful and conclude other people are going to like it based on the artist telling you its good? Thats the equivalence to this conversation.

Not really. See, I know a little something about art, whereas the copywriting client doesn't know copywriting from a hole in the ground. He can't tell whether copy is good or bad. He only knows whether he personally likes the copy or not - whether it would make him reach for his wallet.

And if he's actually in the target market, that might mean something. But if he's not, it means squat.

We have been in multiple threads where common sense basic rules and principles have been spelt out in copywriting. Comparing it to art is a complete miss.

There are common sense basic rules in art, too, such as the interlacing of the joint to the advancing member. Knowing what the advancing member is, on the other hand, and why - is not common sense at all.

If copywriting were anywhere near as subjective as art you would expect greater diversity in copywriting than headline, tell the story, bullets etc.

There is. Bigsofty's sales page has no bullets anywhere on it, and you think it's one of the best you've ever seen.

The tangible result of copywriting is a buyer reaching for their wallet

No, the tangible result of copywriting is a satisfied customer.

A large part of copywriting that you and almost every other would-be copywriter choose to flat-out ignore is managing expectations. It doesn't stop when you get the money. It is the copywriting that tells the customer whether you just ripped him off when he sees the product.

But you think what matters is what the customer does at your web site. That's common sense; once he's gone, it's not your problem, right?

Art leaves you a different person. It's not what you think when you look at the piece that matters. It's what you think when you walk away.

You just don't seem to get it.

[nontemplates]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

But you think what matters is what the customer does at your web site. That's common sense; once he's gone, it's not your problem, right?

Art leaves you a different person. It's not what you think when you look at the piece that matters. It's what you think when you walk away.

You just don't seem to get it.

New omniscient claim So i will respond

In classic logic classes we call this circular reasoning.

Please don't get into that game that you are in my head to tell me what I think and then use circular reasoning to come to a conclusion you merely assumed your way into. The fact that I state that the tangible result of copywriting is a sale does not imply that I do not think that the sale should not be from a genuinely satisfied customer. Your conclusions do not necessarily follow. The really funny thing is Daniel blasted me for suggesting that relationship selling (that ensures the customer doesn't have buyers remorse - ie is a satisfied customer) is part of the copy writer's concern and here you are claiming that people who don't see that a satisfied customer is the tangible result of copywriting are neophytes and don't get it. I mean in veiled words he's threatened to have me banned because I proposed exactly what you just said and some other common sense observations (yeah I am betting the story will change now that you are contradicting each other. I can bank on this or you aren't really contradicting each other by some logic gymnastics ).

Don't thoughtlessly rely on formulas!

See I do think you are right about having a satisfied customer. Your wrong. Is Daniel now the neophyte? because acording to your last post - he just doesn't get it.

[Daniel Scott]

Mike,

I´ve never made ¨veiled threats¨ to have you banned. I don´t particularly respect you or your knowledge... but the feeling seems to be mutual.

That´s fine. I can live with that.

For the last few posts I was really writing for people who may be reading, not you specifically... one of the interesting things about a public forum as opposed to a private discussion.

But at this point we seem to be re-hashing the same points over and over... and don´t seem to be making any progress in our communications... so I am going to let the matter drop.

People can read the posts and make their own conclusions.

But please don´t say I threatened to have you banned.

-Dan

P.S. Regarding the whole ¨what is the copy´s job¨ thing... here´s the way I think of it.

Copy makes the sale. A copywriter writes you the best converting letter he can based on the product you give him.

If your product is good... that will create a satisfied customer.

So I don´t really agree with Caliban at this particular juncture.

Just to clarify.

Originally Posted by nontemplates

New omniscient claim So i will respond

In classic logic clases we call this circular reasoning.

Please don't get into that game that you are in my head to tell me what I think and then use circular reasoning to come to a conclusion you merely assumed your way into. The fact that I state that the tangible result of copywriting is a sale does not imply that I do not think that the sale should not be from a genuinely satisfied customer. Your conclusions do not necessarily follow The really funny thing is Daniel blasted me for suggesting that relationship selling that ensures the customer doesn't have buyers remorse (ie is a satisfied customer) is part of the copy writing concerns and here you are claiming that people who don't see that a satisfied customer is the tangible result of copywriting allegedly marks me as a neophyte. I mean in veiled words he's threatened to have me banned because I proposed exactly what you just said and some other common sense observations (yeah I am betting the story will change now that you are contradicting each other. I can bank on this or you aren't really contradicting each other by some logic gymnastics ).

Don't thoughtlessly rely on formulas!

See I do think you are right about having a satisfied customer. Your wrong. Is Daniel now the neophyte? because acording to your last post - he just doesn't get it.

[nontemplates]

The threat is off topic to discuss in this thread Daniel and like you said we hardly respect each other at this point (although I respect you as a forum member even if you don't) and should withdraw from this thread as its just derailing it further. If you want to discuss the threat do so in the thread you made it in.

[Bigsofty]

Well that's certainly been a funsome exchange but we're all out of popcorn now, so how's about everybody smooch and make pinky pledges to be nice? Preferably silently, without posting

As a sticky thread this was a valuable resource, now somewhat blighted with an entire page of bickering. Yuk.

I have my own opinion on some of the things said, but if I can resist the temptation then I'm sure you guys can

Now, back to the actual topic... me! But no, seriously...

I am probably a good example for this, so not pimping too much, I hope. My rate, for a full salesletter, with a couple or three weeks of research and everything done very professionally, thankyouverymuch, is $770.

The site explains it but here's why:

1. Very cheap cost of living here
2. I'm fussy, prefering to choose what I'll do and when, rather than licking the crack of a high-paying client. Bottom line, if someone were paying me $5,000 I'd feel a level of obligation to them that I'm just not comfortable with.

No-one, and I don't care who they are, can guarantee their copy. If I'm not 100% certain of improving the client's results, or, if a new product, that it's a seller, I won't take it on. Fact remains, no-one can guarantee any particular level.

I can only guarantee an improvement. I can't guarantee 5% or whatever. Nobody can.

That I could squeeze clients for five grand is not the issue. For me to be completely comfortable I need to know my fee is great value, easily worth more than the client paid. Ideally a lot more. That way everyone is happy.

I spent years in a high-stress career and like most people here have struggled in the past to figure out what works best online. Today I've reached a happy, zen-like existence, quite literally waking up each day on a beautiful tropical island, where I don't have to do a damn thing I don't want to. My total expenses for a month, everything, including mortgage, comes to around $500, max. That includes eating out a lot at nice places.

Fun fact - I have other businesses that bring in some cash, my wife has a full-time career - I could stop copywriting tomorrow and cope fine.

I'm not gonna screw with that zenniness for the sake of some stranger's cash. $770 gets me motivated, it gets my best efforts and dedication - within limits. Pee me off, push me, be a pain in my (perky) posterior and I'll GLADLY say goodbye to the seven hundred bux. Life's too short.

It took me a lifetime to get where I am today. I wouldn't swap my life with anybody. If I charged more then sure, I could have a bigger house, a bigger car, and more expenses. So what?

WIIFM?

Geddit?

My situation is unusual, I know. Fact is, not everyone who can charge more, necessarily should do, or wants to.

Pricing works both ways. You can buy $770 of my time and dedication; and it's damn good value. The rest aint for sale.


I'll shut up now. Carry on...



B.

(www.copywriter-ac.com)

PS: This was a moment of pure self-indulgence, nearly 100% about ME! Damn that felt good. Oh well, back to work. About you..?

[Paul McQuillan]

Seriously, this thread has become a joke.

You guys should feel stupid

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by nontemplates

Please don't get into that game

Okay!

You can go play with yourself.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Bigsofty

As a sticky thread this was a valuable resource, now somewhat blighted with an entire page of bickering. Yuk.

Yeah, and I sort of have to take some of the blame on that. I apologise for getting in the middle of everything; it was inconsiderate of me.

[nontemplates]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Okay!

You can go play with yourself.

I pass on answering in kind. Stop baiting and let the thread get back on track

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

I, for my part also apologise for taking this thread off topic, I've allowed the above poster to needle me way too much.

I've now placed him on complete Ignore so I don't have to read or see any more of his comments.

I'm absolutely sick and tired of all of this utter stupidity.

For what it's worth, I absolutely love helping other people to the best of my ability. It's really great to be a part of this forum, sharing in what is for the most part - excellent banter and more importantly, learning from all of the other copywriters here.

Hopefully we can all get this back on track now.

Once again I'm sorry for allowing him to get to me, it won't happen again.

I'm all for positivity, not negativity and arguing just for the sake of it.

Best regards to you all.


Mark

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by DavidO

This highlights a really frustrating situation that many new marketers can find themselves in. It's a Catch-22: You can't afford a good copywriter, but using cheap ones will never make you the money to hire a good one.

I've paid from $197 to $2000 and everything in between for copy. The funny thing is that the quality difference between $197 and 2 grand was not very much. That's depressing.

With only rare exceptions you won't get high-quality copy for less than 5 figures. Why should copywriting be different from any other market. Popular (i.e. high-converting) copywriters are in highastest demand and can charge the highest rates.

I don't completely agree with the advice to spend $100 on guides and do your own. That's what I've done and after three years of constant striving my copy is profitable, but not sensational. I know there's higher conversion to be had out of my product.

David,

You raise some very good points. Here's one suggestion I can offer. Write your sales letter as best as you can. Identify a copywriter, either by reputation or proof (i.e. client testimonials) that you like their writing style.

Ask them what they would charge you for a sales letter critique. It might be written or it might be a Camtasia type critique... depends on the copywriter.

A critique with them will be a fraction of their normal sales letter from scratch and they will give you a lot of useful information on how to improve your sales letter yourself.

Another option is to join a membership site like Ray Edwards' Learn Copy or Fortin's Copy Doctor to get access to more advanced copywriting knowledge.

Hope that helps,

Mike