Budget will need copywriter

[dyaonna]

Any suggestions on where to go ? what sites are the best to get a copywriter ? If I am on a budget , how much should I look to paying for my copywriter ?

[David Raybould]

Hi-

Good copywriters aren't cheap
usually, and cheap ones will
usually do nothing but cost you
money.

You may find this thread useful:

Is it possible to find "affordable" Sales Letter Writers?

Also, if you add a little detail to
your post here, budget, market
etc, you may get some PMs from
available writers.

Good luck in your search....

-David Raybould

[Jon Steel]

I agree with David above, however, just understand something. Copywriting is a skill that ANYONE can acquire with practice. The only bad things is that the practice may cost you a little money to test. I would actually advise you to order a couple books and start reading about how to write sales messages. The reason I say this is because if you want to keep creating different products and such - you probably will not want to keep paying people to write for you.

Sure - there are a lot of people out there who will take your money. I'm one of them, but to be honest you can (and should) learn how to do it yourself. It is what lots of people do - especially here. They write something and ask others to critique it. This is the most cost effective solution for you -

Rome wasn't built in a day - and even TOP copywriters started somewhere. Learn from the best and emulate them. It is a lot easier than you think...

js

[Jay White]

Here's a great place to find a lot of talented copywriters.

The Copywriting Board - Index

Good luck!

[Scott Murdaugh]

Copywriting is a skill that ANYONE can acquire with practice. The only bad things is that the practice may cost you a little money to test.

John... I STRONGLY disagree. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Not ANYONE can become a talented copywriter, no matter how many books, courses, or years of studying they do.

There is an inherent talent to it. It's something you have or you don't. If you're good you can get better, but if you don't have a "way with words", if you don't have a fundamental understanding of what makes people buy, then you'll never be a good copywriter.

I'll never be good at programming, or design... No matter how much I study I just don't have the talent for it.

So saying that ANYONE can be a good copywriter (Like a lot of copywriting courses say) is complete BS.

No offense, just the truth.

Peace,

-Scott

[Cherilyn Woodhouse]

I'm with... both of you.

Yes, it takes innate talent to be a GOOD copywriter. But you can "get by" with no talent, and write something that resembles copy from what you learn in books and courses. It might not get even a 1% conversion rate - but it is still sales copy.

If you're looking for a GOOD copywriter, you're going to have to spend some money. Why? Because GOOD copywriters can charge a premium for their services, because clients who are going to make big returns on a product thanks to that copywriter can afford that money up front, and understand the value the copywriter brings.

If you're just looking for a "sales letter", then budget doesn't matter so much. You just might have to lower your expectations a bit.

- Cherilyn

[Scott Murdaugh]

I'll agree to disagree.

I have a friend, brilliant guy. He runs a roofing company.

He posted an ad on Craigslist that literally read something like...

"Roofer needs work. Ready to start. I give good prices. Free estimate. Call #"'

He's not dumb, if you had a conversation with him you'd think he's a smart guy, but he can't write a coherent sentence, and a lot of people are like that.

Ever outsource articles? I have... And the majority of writers... People who call themselves "writers"... Have nowhere near the talent to write decent copy. I'm talking native English speakers here.

I hired a college Journalism major to write some stuff for me, and I couldn't believe the crap she turned in passes in college courses as writing.

So, I'll agree to disagree. But you're wrong:P

Peace,

-Scott

[MontelloMarketing]

Originally Posted by Jon Steel

In my mind, anyone who WANTS and HAS TIME to learn to become a good copywriter CAN. Just ask yourself something - what does it take to become a good copywriter? Word choice, creativity, style? These things can be learned quickly or ripped off other people's sales messages.

Naw... Word choice, sure. Style, sure. You can't teach creativity. Well, you can teach people about creativity... how to build it. But you can't teach someone to have it.

For example, have you ever read a sales message - read something that sounded powerful - twisted it - and inserted it into your own sales message?

That itself is a talent. The vast majority of people can not take something, twist it and make it work.

1) Why did they write this like this?
2) What effect were they going for by writing it or laying it out this way?

And the problem with this is that most will come up with the wrong answers to these questions.

Sure - Maybe no one can just sit there and write something from scratch every time; however, with all the sales messages out there today - all anyone really needs to do is study the ones with the great conversion rates that apply to their product - and emulate.

If this were true, every marketer could cobble together killer copy everytime. They don't because it's not easy to emulate... especially if you don't know what to emulate and aren't creative enough to pull it off.

Now computer programming...thats a whole different ball game!

Aaah... I agree it's a different game but you've got these two backward. Ask a programmer. Ask one of the THOUSANDS of programmers who got into it not because they were good at it... not because they had a desire and natural ability for it... but because the guidance counselors came around and said "By the time you're 25 computer programmers will be in high demand. Pay will be high and jobs will be plentiful."

In fact I'd say a fairly large number of programmers today never chose to do it. It was kinda chosen for them. And if you go back to the first and second generation of them it was an even higher number.

This is fairly simple, IMO... left brain activities like math and science are more geared toward learning. Sure, there are savants and the like who are naturally good at it... but break down math or science into easy enough to digest pieces and pretty much everyone can eventually learn it.

The arts are right brained activities. Instead of mostly learned, these things are mostly inherent. Nurtured... coerced... coached... rehearsed and perfected, sure... but always starting from a place of natural ability.

[Scott Murdaugh]

Ahh, here I was all ready to come back with a 1,000 word post on the subject and sure enough Vin beat me to it.

Tough act to follow... I'll just agree to agree with Vin's post.

[BrandonLee]

I'm a decent copywriter when I sit down and work on it, but I'll never be great no matter how hard I work at it, and that's just the way it is.
Good copywriting is a skill anyone can attain with time, great copywriting is not.
Here is an example.
I love to play the saxaphone, I've invested a lot of time into it and I'm decent at it. I've been invited to play at local bars and the like, but no matter how hard I work, I'll never have the natural talent of a John Coltrane.
So it is with copy.
The good news is you can learn other things as use that as leverage, and then you can hire the good copywriters to do your projects for you.
Brandon

[procopywriter]

Originally Posted by scottspfd82

John... I STRONGLY disagree. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Not ANYONE can become a talented copywriter, no matter how many books, courses, or years of studying they do.

There is an inherent talent to it. It's something you have or you don't. If you're good you can get better, but if you don't have a "way with words", if you don't have a fundamental understanding of what makes people buy, then you'll never be a good copywriter.

I'll never be good at programming, or design... No matter how much I study I just don't have the talent for it.

So saying that ANYONE can be a good copywriter (Like a lot of copywriting courses say) is complete BS.

No offense, just the truth.

Peace,

-Scott

I know what you're saying, and I have to disagree with you. I used to give music lessons, so I know what it's like when someone just doesn't have "natural talent".

Here's the secret:

You BECOME what you repeatedly think about. If anyone--no matter what disadvantages they may have starting out--truly sets their focus and intent in single-minded purpose toward ONE goal... they can't help but reach it eventually.

When I was in college, there was a trombone player who was a music major. I couldn't believe the guy was trying to be a music major because he really sucked! I mean, the guy just couldn't play worth a darn.

But he stuck with it. At the time, I remember thinking, "How pathetic. This bad musician is probably going to become a bad high school band director one day."

Then... a few years later, I heard him perform at Convocation. (All music majors have to attend a weekly convocation where various students perform.) And I remember groaning to myself at the torture I was about to endure.

But guess what?

He did great!! I couldn't believe it. He had great tone... he played in tune... his technique was flawless. I had to pick my jaw up off the floor!

Here was a guy who was determined. He stuck with it. And at some point, he had a breakthrough.

If someone starts out at a severe disadvantage, they may never become world class. But they can still master the craft.

Much of what keeps people from achieving is they give up too soon. And many never get past negative beliefs and mindset. Low self-esteem is a big hurdle to a lot of people. And it can be completely subconscious. A lot of people tell themselves, "I'm no good at that." Or, "I can never do that." Or, "I fail no matter how hard I try." Or, "I'm not good at anything." Or, "I'm so dumb." Or any number of negative affirmations.

You subconscious mind believes what you repeatedly tell it. And your mind creates that reality.

I don't care who you are. If you're determined. If you stick with it. If you continue reaffirming positive messages to yourself that you can do it, you'll make it, you deserve it, etc. You will succeed.

It's a law of the universe. It's a law of success.

[Scott Murdaugh]

If someone starts out at a severe disadvantage, they may never become world class. But they can still master the craft.

That's fair enough.

But, unless someone already has a natural talent for and enjoys writing... And also has a passion for psychology, understanding what motivates people, understanding sales funnels and why people buy, it's highly unlikely that they'll wake up one day and say "Hey, I need to learn direct response copywriting."

Have you ever met a successful salesman? Like ultra successful, the top 1%?

Those guys are born with it. They have magnetic personalities, people like and trust them right off the bat.

They know how to build relationships and close deals.

Now, could say a Journalism major or a freelance writer decide to take up copywriting and become great at it? With enough study and dedication definitely.

Let's say there's a 30 something year old from Japan who doesn't know a word of English, and wakes up one day deciding he wants to be the worlds greatest copywriter, in English...

Could he succeed? Yeah, but only if he has the drive, motivation and determination to learn.

And THAT is why I say that not anyone can become a successful copywriter, because in my experience dealing with people most people don't have that drive.

You really need a passion for it... Writing, for most people, is boring as hell. Most people can't do it well.

Copywriting books and courses, unless you're passionate about learning, are boring as hell.

So, I stand by my first comment...

You need to be a risk taker, because running your own business... Whether it's creating and marketing your own products or just trying to find clients, is a risk.

You need an entrepreneurial spirit... You have to understand people, you know how to make clients trust you, and ultimately you need to have what it takes to deliver results.

If someone has the drive and ambition to learn copywriting, then I'd agree. But most people don't have it.

And when copywriting courses make claims like "Anyone Can Make $300,000 A Year Writing One Simple Letter A Month" ... That's just BS.

I agree with most of what you say, that people can achieve anything, ect...

But the fact remains that most people don't have the drive... And achieving a life long goal vs. "Anyone can swipe/cut/paste these days and create a sales letter" are two completely different things.

I'll compromise with you... Anyone who has at least a little bit of writing talent, and an understanding of human psychology, can become a good copywriter IF they have the natural drive and motivation to succeed.

Most people don't have that motivation. That's why most people are content with a 9-5 gigs.

-Scott

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by BrandonLee

I'm a decent copywriter when I sit down and work on it, but I'll never be great no matter how hard I work at it, and that's just the way it is.
Good copywriting is a skill anyone can attain with time, great copywriting is not.
Here is an example.
I love to play the saxaphone, I've invested a lot of time into it and I'm decent at it. I've been invited to play at local bars and the like, but no matter how hard I work, I'll never have the natural talent of a John Coltrane.
So it is with copy.
The good news is you can learn other things as use that as leverage, and then you can hire the good copywriters to do your projects for you.
Brandon

On the other side of the coin, when Miles was off goofing around and cheating on his wife, 'Trane was in his hotel room shedding Giant Steps and tertian harmony like a man possessed. In fact, I've never heard anyone who knew Trane in his heyday say he was a naturally talented guy... in fact, he was pretty old (by jazz player standards) when he hit the "big time" and started playing with Monk. He DID practise 12 hours a day, 7 days a week though.

It's the same with a lot of players. People talk about how Bird was a "genius" but you've gotta remember Bird literally did NOTHING ELSE but practise for 2 years... I'm talking 15 - 17 hours a day. So when you do that, you're gonna be amazing.

I'm not saying there's no such thing as natural talent. Hell, Chris Potter could play Giant Steps better than almost anyone when he was 12 (and had only been playing sax for a couple of years). He's a prodigy. He has natural talent.

But what I am saying is that, in my opinion, it is such a small part of the end result it's more or less non-existent.

You've gotta have drive, you gotta be motivated, you have to work hard... that's how it is for anything in life. Very few people are born with a natural ability to cook. Great chefs work their butts off for many years... why should any other vocation be any different?

It is my belief that anyone can do anything if they really want to, with very few exceptions (for example, if you have an inherant physical disability).

But it takes a LOT of time and practise and dedication. But once you get near the top, "how good" ceases to be important... and it becomes more of a stylistic distinction.

Taking the music analogy again, who is better - 'Trane or Bird? Potter? Shorter? Redman? Brecker? Lovano? Liebman?

There's a thousand names we could throw in here, but ultimately no one can really say who is better than another... we can discuss how their particular music has moved the genre forward, who we LIKE or RESONATE WITH more, or whatever... but ultimately it's a preference, not a hard, measurable fact.

And, in my opinion, most creative pursuits (involving writing) are like that. And because of that, there's this kind of diminishing returns theory, and when you add human error into the mix, well, things become distinctly less easy to pick out...

And that's why I believe, rationally, that anyone can be one of the best at anything... IF they are willing to work for it.

-Dan

[fancyrae]

I'm a newer copywriter who might fit within your budget. My specialty is direct response copy--salesmanship in print. I bring 15 years of sales and marketing experience to the table. So, unlike many new copywriters, I already know how to sell. And build rapport. And anticipate and answer objections. And of course, close.

Since you may not yet be able to PM, you can reach me at nrevans1 at gmail dot com if you want to discuss this further.